+16BAB worth it for a rogue??? [Archive] - Wizards Community

+16BAB worth it for a rogue??? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tenken
10-05-04, 11:21 PM In one of the sticky thread about rogues on this board, it mentions that a +16 BAB is necessary for a rogue. My question is, why? Yeah, you get that 4th attack, but it's at +1!!! Seems like the levels are better spent getting an additional +2d6 on the sneak attack to make every attack count (using Guild Thief prc, you can get 11d6 sneak attack by level 20, with BAB +14).

Anyone care to explain the thought behind this +16 BAB must-have line of thinking?
Baalzamon
10-05-04, 11:31 PM because when you get to epic levels your BAB can go up a lot higher, but if you dont have a +16 by level 20 you can never get that 4th attack.

you can always take those 4 rogue levels from 20-24
catharz
10-05-04, 11:36 PM because when you get to epic levels your BAB can go up a lot higher, but if you dont have a +16 by level 20 you can never get that 4th attack.

you can always take those 4 rogue levels from 20-24

Ya, +16 BAB may not seem like a big deal at level 10, but once it gets up to level 16, you need to start thinking about epic. Unless, of course, your builds is tight enough that those ~4 levels could be better spent.
Tenken
10-05-04, 11:39 PM because when you get to epic levels your BAB can go up a lot higher, but if you dont have a +16 by level 20 you can never get that 4th attack.

you can always take those 4 rogue levels from 20-24

Ah!!!! I see the light, gotta cover my eyes. :cool:

Now then... what's better, rog16/ftr2/rgr2, or rog16/ftr4? I'm at level 5 currently, going for the TWF route... naturally having the rgr class would seem great because of the free TWF feat... but ftr 4 gains access to Weapon Specialization, and I'm definitely using a specific weapon anyway (since I took the Ancestral Relic feat), so Weapon Spec could come in handy... so which one would be better?
AviLazar
10-06-04, 12:13 AM Ah!!!! I see the light, gotta cover my eyes. :cool:

Now then... what's better, rog16/ftr2/rgr2, or rog16/ftr4? I'm at level 5 currently, going for the TWF route... naturally having the rgr class would seem great because of the free TWF feat... but ftr 4 gains access to Weapon Specialization, and I'm definitely using a specific weapon anyway (since I took the Ancestral Relic feat), so Weapon Spec could come in handy... so which one would be better?

Getting Fighter 3 and 4 will net you 2d10 HD, and a feat which you plan on using for specialization (+2 to damage on each hit)...while Ranger 1 and 2 will net you 2d8 HD, 1st fav enemy, tracking, wild empathy, and TWF feat. Since you plan on being a two-weapon fighter, the ranger deal seems like a better option for you.

+2 to damage is a lot cheaper to enchant on a weapon then to make an item that will give you TWF feat for free.
Sang-Drax
10-06-04, 09:10 AM And let's not forget the great array of skills the Ranger can offer you. Those 2 miserable fighter skill points are just sad.
warok
10-06-04, 10:50 AM imo rogue 15/invisible blade 5 is better

you get +11d6 SA dice, int to ac (up to +5), bab 16, and feint as a free action and take 10 on feinting

there was a thread a while back the covered the best way to get max SA dice, iirc rogue, rogukan ninja, guild thief, invisible blade, and assassin were used, probally someother obscure class as well.
now that search is back up have fun searching for it

enjoy
Tenken
10-06-04, 11:12 AM imo rogue 15/invisible blade 5 is better

you get +11d6 SA dice, int to ac (up to +5), bab 16, and feint as a free action and take 10 on feinting

Didn't realize Invis Blade had full BAB progression. The prerequisites really really suck though, since I don't plan on using range attacks :/ Also, doesn't a ring of blinking pretty much kinda duplicate the whole "feint as a free" action thing, since you can just keep sneak attacking (most of the time) anyway?
Ysereh
10-06-04, 12:11 PM the revised feat requirements, though unofficial, for Invisible Blade are now just weapon finesse and weapon focus(dagger, kukri, or punching dagger.) this is from the class's creator so the requirements are no longer so high.
Tenken
10-06-04, 12:28 PM the revised feat requirements, though unofficial, for Invisible Blade are now just weapon finesse and weapon focus(dagger, kukri, or punching dagger.) this is from the class's creator so the requirements are no longer so high.

Is there a link for this unofficial statement from him?
Snicker-Snack
10-06-04, 01:07 PM Yes, Here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=139190) :).
Tenken
10-06-04, 01:53 PM Wow, the changed prerequisites is also followed by a change in the class to a 10 level prc. A weak 10 level prc at that. I don't think I can convince my DM to change the prereq without taking the new (weaker) prc. I'm gonna look around for posts to see if he mentioned the change of the prereq without giving/mentioning the total change to the prc, so I can show it to my DM.
nihility
10-06-04, 02:01 PM This seems pretty clear to me:

To use the printed version of the invisible blade as is, simply change the prerequisites feats to:

Weapon Focus (dagger, kukri, or punching dagger) and Weapon Finesse.
This being from the creator.

The 10-level version has different requirements (the old requirements, basically) and different benefits. So, either keep the 5-level version and change the requirements, or keep the old requirements (more or less) and change the levels.
DragonsArt
10-06-04, 03:44 PM Since most rogues tend to have higher INT bonuses, I think the preferred build is now something like...

Swash 3/Rogue 12/Invisible Blade 5... that gives you

Rogue: 5d6 normal sneak, +9 BAB, 1 special ability, uncanny dodge, evasion
Invisible Blade: 3d6 dagger sneak attack, feint as free action +5 BAB
Swashbuckler: +3 BAB, Weapon Finese, INT to damage

Skills from swashbuckler are actually useful and you get 4 points/level. The INT to damage is nice, as if you have a 18 INT, that's an extra 4 points to damage... which is actually MORE (average wise) than an extra sneak attack die.

So you end up with a +17 BAB, +8d6 sneak, INT to damage and some nice abilities.
Tenken
10-06-04, 03:58 PM Hmmm, rog11/swash3/invis5/guildthief1 would actually net me +16BAB, +10d6 sneak attack, and the INT to damage (I know using the Ninja class can get a better BAB, but I'm playing a good character here). I think I like this a lot :) Thanks to everyone :cool:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tenken 10-05-04, 11:21 PM	In one of the sticky thread about rogues on this board, it mentions that a +16 BAB is necessary for a rogue. My question is, why? Yeah, you get that 4th attack, but it's at +1!!! Seems like the levels are better spent getting an additional +2d6 on the sneak attack to make every attack count (using Guild Thief prc, you can get 11d6 sneak attack by level 20, with BAB +14). Anyone care to explain the thought behind this +16 BAB must-have line of thinking?
Baalzamon 10-05-04, 11:31 PM	because when you get to epic levels your BAB can go up a lot higher, but if you dont have a +16 by level 20 you can never get that 4th attack. you can always take those 4 rogue levels from 20-24
catharz 10-05-04, 11:36 PM	because when you get to epic levels your BAB can go up a lot higher, but if you dont have a +16 by level 20 you can never get that 4th attack. you can always take those 4 rogue levels from 20-24 Ya, +16 BAB may not seem like a big deal at level 10, but once it gets up to level 16, you need to start thinking about epic. Unless, of course, your builds is tight enough that those ~4 levels could be better spent.
Tenken 10-05-04, 11:39 PM	because when you get to epic levels your BAB can go up a lot higher, but if you dont have a +16 by level 20 you can never get that 4th attack. you can always take those 4 rogue levels from 20-24 Ah!!!! I see the light, gotta cover my eyes. :cool: Now then... what's better, rog16/ftr2/rgr2, or rog16/ftr4? I'm at level 5 currently, going for the TWF route... naturally having the rgr class would seem great because of the free TWF feat... but ftr 4 gains access to Weapon Specialization, and I'm definitely using a specific weapon anyway (since I took the Ancestral Relic feat), so Weapon Spec could come in handy... so which one would be better?
AviLazar 10-06-04, 12:13 AM	Ah!!!! I see the light, gotta cover my eyes. :cool: Now then... what's better, rog16/ftr2/rgr2, or rog16/ftr4? I'm at level 5 currently, going for the TWF route... naturally having the rgr class would seem great because of the free TWF feat... but ftr 4 gains access to Weapon Specialization, and I'm definitely using a specific weapon anyway (since I took the Ancestral Relic feat), so Weapon Spec could come in handy... so which one would be better? Getting Fighter 3 and 4 will net you 2d10 HD, and a feat which you plan on using for specialization (+2 to damage on each hit)...while Ranger 1 and 2 will net you 2d8 HD, 1st fav enemy, tracking, wild empathy, and TWF feat. Since you plan on being a two-weapon fighter, the ranger deal seems like a better option for you. +2 to damage is a lot cheaper to enchant on a weapon then to make an item that will give you TWF feat for free.
Sang-Drax 10-06-04, 09:10 AM	And let's not forget the great array of skills the Ranger can offer you. Those 2 miserable fighter skill points are just sad.
warok 10-06-04, 10:50 AM	imo rogue 15/invisible blade 5 is better you get +11d6 SA dice, int to ac (up to +5), bab 16, and feint as a free action and take 10 on feinting there was a thread a while back the covered the best way to get max SA dice, iirc rogue, rogukan ninja, guild thief, invisible blade, and assassin were used, probally someother obscure class as well. now that search is back up have fun searching for it enjoy
Tenken 10-06-04, 11:12 AM	imo rogue 15/invisible blade 5 is better you get +11d6 SA dice, int to ac (up to +5), bab 16, and feint as a free action and take 10 on feinting Didn't realize Invis Blade had full BAB progression. The prerequisites really really suck though, since I don't plan on using range attacks :/ Also, doesn't a ring of blinking pretty much kinda duplicate the whole "feint as a free" action thing, since you can just keep sneak attacking (most of the time) anyway?
Ysereh 10-06-04, 12:11 PM	the revised feat requirements, though unofficial, for Invisible Blade are now just weapon finesse and weapon focus(dagger, kukri, or punching dagger.) this is from the class's creator so the requirements are no longer so high.
Tenken 10-06-04, 12:28 PM	the revised feat requirements, though unofficial, for Invisible Blade are now just weapon finesse and weapon focus(dagger, kukri, or punching dagger.) this is from the class's creator so the requirements are no longer so high. Is there a link for this unofficial statement from him?
Snicker-Snack 10-06-04, 01:07 PM	Yes, Here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=139190) :).
Tenken 10-06-04, 01:53 PM	Wow, the changed prerequisites is also followed by a change in the class to a 10 level prc. A weak 10 level prc at that. I don't think I can convince my DM to change the prereq without taking the new (weaker) prc. I'm gonna look around for posts to see if he mentioned the change of the prereq without giving/mentioning the total change to the prc, so I can show it to my DM.
nihility 10-06-04, 02:01 PM	This seems pretty clear to me: To use the printed version of the invisible blade as is, simply change the prerequisites feats to: Weapon Focus (dagger, kukri, or punching dagger) and Weapon Finesse. This being from the creator. The 10-level version has different requirements (the old requirements, basically) and different benefits. So, either keep the 5-level version and change the requirements, or keep the old requirements (more or less) and change the levels.
DragonsArt 10-06-04, 03:44 PM	Since most rogues tend to have higher INT bonuses, I think the preferred build is now something like... Swash 3/Rogue 12/Invisible Blade 5... that gives you Rogue: 5d6 normal sneak, +9 BAB, 1 special ability, uncanny dodge, evasion Invisible Blade: 3d6 dagger sneak attack, feint as free action +5 BAB Swashbuckler: +3 BAB, Weapon Finese, INT to damage Skills from swashbuckler are actually useful and you get 4 points/level. The INT to damage is nice, as if you have a 18 INT, that's an extra 4 points to damage... which is actually MORE (average wise) than an extra sneak attack die. So you end up with a +17 BAB, +8d6 sneak, INT to damage and some nice abilities.
Tenken 10-06-04, 03:58 PM	Hmmm, rog11/swash3/invis5/guildthief1 would actually net me +16BAB, +10d6 sneak attack, and the INT to damage (I know using the Ninja class can get a better BAB, but I'm playing a good character here). I think I like this a lot :) Thanks to everyone :cool: