16d4+128 crit at tenth level [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTimePost
Yellowsnow6967

10-22-06, 09:53 AM		My favorite charactor of all time was a Raptoran skydiver. He flies 30 feet in, attacks you twice with his scythe, than flies 30 feet away, does a 180 degree turn and does it again next round. Here it is,

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~

Race: Raptoran
Class: Kensai (from Crystal Keep, it is a Fighter Varient Class)/ Stormtalon
Level: 5/5 ECL: 10
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
Speed: 30 Land
60 Fly (Perfect)

Combat Stats:
HD: 10d10+10
HP: 85
AC: 21
BAB:+10/+5
MA: +23/+17 (Crit: 19-20/x4)
RAB:+9/+4
Melee Dam: 2d4+16 (x2 on charge)
Ranged Dam: n/a

Initiative:+5

Saves Base Enhanced
Fort +8 +12
Ref +1 +5
Will +1 +4

Stats Base Enhanced Modifier
Strength 20 22 +6
Dexterity 12 12 +1
Constitution 12 12 +1
Intelligence 12 12 +1
Wisdom 10 10 +0
Charisma 10 10 +0

Special
Fly Speed increase (+20 ft)
Foot Talons
+2 Attack and Damage on Chosen Weapon (Scythe) (from the Kensai class)

Skills
Skill Base Enhanced
Climb +13 +18
Jump +13 +26
Spot +9 +11


Feats
Shakey Flaw
Murky-eyed Flaw
Improved Initiative
Weapon Focus (Scythe)
Weapon Spec. (Scythe)
Improved Crit (Scythe)
Melee Weapon Mastery
Diving Charge
Flyby Attack
Improved Flight

Important Items:
Guantlets of Ogre Power
+2 Scythe
+2 Mithral Breastplate
Ring of Protection +2
Ring of Wings of Air (my dm lets us have 1 item that is custom made. The spell is in the Spell Compendium on page 240)
Cloak of Protection +3

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~

Damage wise, when I attack you each round it is a total of 4d4+32 for one attack, but when i crit you it is 16d4+126 and at tenth level idk what can take an average damage of one hit of 166 damage. If you have any suggestions to how i can improve him than tell me, cause i am very curious. Any book is aloud and anything on Crystalkeep.com in the DnD section is
aloud.

Thanks, and I hope you like my character,

YellowSnow
AngelofCthulhu

10-22-06, 10:10 AM		Your critical may be nice, but two things. 1: How do you have so much gold worth of items? What you have seems to be well beyond what a normal 10th level character has. 2nd: Spells will massacre you as is, your hp is incredibly low for a 10th level fighting style character. I had a magic caster with 72 hp without feats to improve it. I would recommend boosting your svaes, especially reflex. As is a well placed lighting bolt + deep slumber from a 10th level wizard could cut you down easily. Boost those saves man!
Yellowsnow6967

10-22-06, 10:22 AM		1: How do you have so much gold worth of items? What you have seems to be well beyond what a normal 10th level character has.

a tenth lvl character gets starting gold of 49,000 the items that I have chosen fit into that and if they did go over, it wasn't by much. lets see,

Guantlets of Ogre Power = 4,000
+2 Scythe = 8,318
+2 Mithral Breastplate = 8,350
Ring of Protection +2 = 8,000
Ring of Wings of Air = 12,000
Cloak of Resistance +3 = 9,000

total = 49,668

ur right, i stand corrected, if i was buying the whole thing, with my material costs and everything, but in my group we don't count the cost of the weapon and the armor. so if i didn't count my armor cost and my weapon cost it would be 49,000 exactly.
Wolfman1987

10-22-06, 11:30 AM		I don't think the damage multiplies like you think it does. I'm pretty sure x2 on a charge and a x4 crit will net you x5 damage not x8.
Llochlyn

10-22-06, 11:55 AM		I don't think the damage multiplies like you think it does. I'm pretty sure x2 on a charge and a x4 crit will net you x5 damage not x8.

as he said : http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#multiplying
Cyderakk

10-22-06, 12:24 PM		should'nt you pick a flaw that hinders you???

Murkey-eyed hinders ranged attacks........according to your character write up it looks like he's not even going to use ranged weapons much so how does that flaw hinder you?........Your DM must be very loose with flaws. And just out of curiosity, do you guys role-play or are you strictly about numbers? I think thats the one thing Magic the Gathering ruined for D&D is alot of the MTG players just worry about numbers instead of the fantasy or the role-playing part of it all.

no offense or anything just trying to get a good idea of where the min/maxing crowd stands when it comes to Role-Playing.
Blade2718

10-22-06, 02:33 PM		no offense or anything just trying to get a good idea of where the min/maxing crowd stands when it comes to Role-Playing.
Most people ascribe to this philosophy: http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9165883&postcount=338
Cyderakk

10-22-06, 03:04 PM		I suppose you could say I subscribe to both sides of the spectrum........i optimize but I also Role Play.......I love to kick ass but I also love to role play what happens after I kick some ass.......but when it comes to it I try to keep to the rules and not Assume that a certain rule works the way I want it to and not the intended way that it was written.

I use flaws but I usually try to make sure they apply to that character and not take a flaw that hinders an ability I don't even use.
Pinky's brain

10-22-06, 03:11 PM		A murky eyed character who chooses to be a ranged character lacks internal consistency (unless he is an idiot, but self professed roleplayers don't tend to back up their decisions with appropriate mental stats and character behaviour). It's pure metagaming.
heax

10-22-06, 04:57 PM		MurkyEyed affects melee characters just as much as ranged characters. You just have to roll twice for invisible, blurred, and creatures in darkness. How does it hinder a ranged character more than a melee character?
Cyderakk

10-22-06, 06:08 PM		i'm sorry HEAX,

I meant to say that SHAKEY was the feat that screws with ranged attacks.

its one thing to metagame, but its another to chose flaws that don't hinder you at all in game. I think it should be a set-back of some kind otherwise its not a flaw its just an extra "gimmie feat" without penalty. And the whole purpose of a flaw is to hinder you in some way.
PhaedrusXY

10-22-06, 06:21 PM		i'm sorry HEAX,

I meant to say that SHAKEY was the feat that screws with ranged attacks.

its one thing to metagame, but its another to chose flaws that don't hinder you at all in game. I think it should be a set-back of some kind otherwise its not a flaw its just an extra "gimmie feat" without penalty. And the whole purpose of a flaw is to hinder you in some way.Yes, it is possible to choose flaws which have no effect on your character. If you don't like that, then that is a complaint about the way the Flaw system is designed.

You also have a misconception about why people use flaws on this board. We use them for exactly what you "accused" us of: getting free feats. The purpose of optimizing is making a strong character within the guidelines allowed for the game. If the DM allows Flaws, then that includes using flaws towards that end.

If you don't like optimizing... well maybe someone else cares to "argue" with you about its pros and cons... I have better things to do. To each his own, live and let live, all that stuff. The purpose of this board and its "idealogy" are summarized in the FAQ, which is stickied at the top of this forum. I'd suggest you read that and understand where posters here are coming from before you start criticizing optimization in general... which it seems like to me is what you are doing.
Einvaldurinn_mikli

10-22-06, 06:25 PM		You are forgetting about self selection. Why on earth would someone that is awful at ranged combat decide to focus on that instead of something that he is good at?
Unless he is a moron, he won't.
elonin

10-22-06, 06:29 PM		We don't use flaws because they cause problems. I try to optomize (not very good at it) and roleplay. The only time I have a problem with optimization is when it leads one down the path of not roleplaying (ie when the only consideration is number crunching not what the charctor's motivation would be).
Cyderakk

10-22-06, 06:57 PM		PhaedrusXY.......its not really a flaw ....its more of a "side note" isn't it.......Like I said, I optimize myself But I try to keep The role-playing in tact and try to keep to a certain balance with making the flaw actually make a difference in respect to the actual character........If a Flaw doesn't directly affect you then whats the purpose of having a "Flaw"??.....and to that end I will stop right there........I understand now that there are subtle levels of optimizers......

1,) optimizer who also role play

2.) optimizer who plays by "the numbers".

thats all i wanted to take from this posting is to understand what the optimizer's thought process was.

thanks for all your info guys....If i agreed with your opinions or not.


later
Titan W

10-22-06, 07:25 PM		I would also like to point out that only a fighter can qualify for weapon specialization, so even a kensai/other class needs to be 4th level in the fighter class to meet the prerequisites for that feat. Having a fighter bonus feat doesn't make you a fighter when meeting prerequisites for those feats, it just limits your selection to a set number of feats (at least how I read the rules as there was no "this character counts as a fighter of equivalent level when determining weather or not the meet the prerequisites for the feats."). Not necceicaraly the intent of the rules i'm sure but that's what they seem to point to.
PhaedrusXY

10-22-06, 08:17 PM		1,) optimizer who also role play

2.) optimizer who plays by "the numbers".See the Stormwind Fallacy. I roleplay too. I am just pointing out that there is nothing inherently wrong with picking a flaw that has no immediate drawback for your character. It makes sense mechanically, and as others have said it is very easy to justify from a roleplaying sense. Why would the nearsighted guy try to become a sharpshooter? He wouldn't (unless he is a moron). He would try to play to his own strengths. As a matter of fact, from a roleplaying sense I think it is alot easier to justify taking a flaw that "doesn't matter" than taking one that immediately detracts from your character's main focus.

Also, what is acceptable from a "roleplaying" perspective is completely subjective. There are no numerical criteria for it. It is 100% up to each person's tastes. There are however rules for how the mechanics of the game work. So in my opinion, it is more or less pointless to "debate" whether something is "acceptable" from a roleplaying point of view (especially on this board).
JosephKell

10-22-06, 08:32 PM		To summarize what I put in the sblock:
Murky-Eyed sucks (unless your DM never uses Concealment ever).

Murky-Eyed vs 1 20% Concealment (Darkness or Blur): Effective Concealment goes from .2 to .36.

Murky-Eyed vs 1 50% Concealment (Displacement): Effective Concealment goes from .5 to .75.

Murky-Eyed vs 2 20% Concealments (Darkness and Blur): .5904 (compared to a .36 for someone without the flaw).
Murky-Eyed vs 1 20% and 1 50% Concealments: Effective Concealment is 0.84. Without the flaw it is .6 (success is the compliment of those numbers). In this case that is 40% vs 16%! 24 out of 100 more AC hits are misses.
Murky-Eyed vs 2 50% Concealments (not sure if this is possible): .9375. Without the flaw: .75.

As an aside, this flaw got me to look at the Blind Fight feat. Depending on how it works it could be the best melee feat in the game. The two interpretations of the Blind Fight feat are:
1. You get one re-roll per attack that involves concealment. (I think this has to be the way to works, otherwise Blind Fight is just too damn good.)
2. You get one re-roll per source of concealment. (This destroys Concealment rules. Don't believe me? Read the crap in the sblocks.)

Even if #1 is true, most things don't have two sources of Displacement, so it is still kind of good.Yes, it is possible to choose flaws which have no effect on your character. If you don't like that, then that is a complaint about the way the Flaw system is designed. -A flaw must have a meaningful effect readless of the character class or role. ...
-Similarly, a flaw that penaltizes a character's Charsima based skills only has a significant impact on the party spokesperson.I believe DM's also have the option to not allow a PC to take a particular flaw.

However, ignoring that. Any melee character with Murky-Eyed is going to be subpar (too easy to get Concealment). Minor Cloak of Displacement is 20% miss chance. As an FYI: Probability of not failing is 0.64 (0.8 * 0.8). If there are multiple miss chances though, it can get gross. Now Darkness is another 20% (effective 36% with this flaw). Two 0.64's together is 0.4096.

Please note that a non Murky-Eyed PC in that same situation only has an effective miss chance of 0.36 (0.20 + 0.20 - 0.20*0.20).

Throw in Blindfighting (which isn't such a bad feat when you compare it to a PC without it) in that same situation (2 20% miss chances) and the effective miss chance drops to 0.04 for each one which is 0.0784 (0.04 + 0.04 - 0.04*0.04) when combined. That can't be right... it if is, Blindfighting is a super awesome feat (almost comparable to a Gem of True Seeing).Two chances for each Concealment check (see PHB)... wait. It says "In melee, every time you miss because of concealment, you can reroll your miss chance percentile roll one time to see if you actually hit." That could mean you get one re-roll per concealment or just one re-roll per attack.

If it is one re-roll per attack, it is harder to calculate the probability.

For a two 20% case (with only 1 re-roll per attack), Effective Concealment = ( .2*.2 ) + .2 - ( .2*.2*.2 ) = 0.232. In this case, Blind Fight almost negated the 2nd Concealment Source.

For a 20% and 50% case (Darkness and Displacement), Effective Concealment is really hard to calculate.

Without Blind Fight, the Effective Concealment is .6 (.2 + .5 - .2*.5).
With Blind Fight giving a re-roll for each source the Effective Concealment is .28 (.04 + .25 - .04*.25).
With Blind Fight giving only one re-roll per attack, the effective Concealment is going to be somewhere between .28 and .6. It can be closely approximated though if you assume the re-roll will go to the worst original Concealment and least worst Concealment (it will give a bounds). So in this case the 50%. Best (lowest) Effective Concealment = .2 + .25 - .2*.25 = .4. Worst (highest) Effective Concealment = .04 + .5 - .04*.5 = .52.

So with Blind Fight only giving one re-roll per attack (no matter how many sources of Concealment), the miss chance from a 20% source and 50% source the actual effective concealment C can be approximated as 0.4 <= C <= .52

But this is why in D&D you don't calculate effective concealment and then roll verse that. You just roll each of them.

If I were running a game, a character with that flaw wouldn't be able to ignore concealment by using magic (like True Seeing or a Gem of True Seeing) or class features (however Tremorsense and Blindsight would still work). I would reduce the number of rolls for displacement by 1 for each displacement effect on the target though. The Blind Fighting feat would only allow one re-roll for each source of concealment (and it wouldn't remove the flaw because Blind Fighting is a prereq for some stuff).

Example: If your target has Concealment from Darkness and Blur. A Murky-Eyed PC would still have to make two 20% concealment checks for Darkness (if either Darkness check fail, the attack fails) and two more 20%'s for Blur (again, if either fails, Blur blocked the attack). With Blind Fighting, that same character would get to re-roll one of each of those checks (if one of the two rolls for Darkness failed, the PC can re-roll one, the PC also gets a re-roll for one of the Blur rolls). That same character with a gem of true seeing (but no Blind Fighting) has to make a roll as a normal PC (that didn't have Murky-Eyed). Finally, that same PC with a Gem of True Seeing and the Blind Fighting feat would have to make one roll for each source of concealment, but also gets a re-roll chance for each one.

Flaws are too easy to abuse. (I had two really good examples of Flaws being made into advantages but this isn't a thread about Flaws).
Prominence

10-22-06, 08:40 PM		Even without the numbers like that, Murky-eyed is a joke.

1. Pierce Magical Concealment ignores 90% of concealment.
2. There's many items (blindfold of blindsight,etc) which ignore concealment.
3. There's many spells (Ebon Eyes, Deeper Darkvision,etc) which ignore concealment.
4. If it's a group or bbeg, chances are your group will dispel whatever is causing the concealment.
5. If it's a person, deal with one of the other 5 things you're fighting.

Really, Murky-eyed reads "Gain a feat." Unless you're in a blizzard or pitch black water, where you're in deep trouble regardless, it doesn't come up as a problem.
JosephKell

10-22-06, 09:38 PM		Even without the numbers like that, Murky-eyed is a joke.

1. Pierce Magical Concealment ignores 90% of concealment.
2. There's many items (blindfold of blindsight,etc) which ignore concealment.
3. There's many spells (Ebon Eyes, Deeper Darkvision,etc) which ignore concealment.
4. If it's a group or bbeg, chances are your group will dispel whatever is causing the concealment.
5. If it's a person, deal with one of the other 5 things you're fighting.

Really, Murky-eyed reads "Gain a feat." Unless you're in a blizzard or pitch black water, where you're in deep trouble regardless, it doesn't come up as a problem.See, this goes against the spirit of the flaw system. A flaw shouldn't be so easy to ignore. Not only that, taking a flaw should never directly lead to ignoring that flaw.

Which is precisely why it is in the Big Book of Options and not the Rulebooks.

Also, Pierce Magical Concealment means you have to take Blind Fight.
PhaedrusXY

10-22-06, 09:58 PM		See, this goes against the spirit of the flaw system. A flaw shouldn't be so easy to ignore. Not only that, taking a flaw should never directly lead to ignoring that flaw.

Which is precisely why it is in the Big Book of Options and not the Rulebooks.

Also, Pierce Magical Concealment means you have to take Blind Fight.I agree with all of this. (I don't own UA, and didn't know or had forgotten about the quote you provided.) I think the Flaw system is flawed :rolleyes: , and that it is basically just a cheesy way to get more feats. If you want something to add some "roleplay flavor" to your character, without cheesy mechanical problems, just use Traits instead of Flaws.
Yellowsnow6967

10-22-06, 10:00 PM		I would also like to point out that only a fighter can qualify for weapon specialization, so even a kensai/other class needs to be 4th level in the fighter class to meet the prerequisites for that feat. Having a fighter bonus feat doesn't make you a fighter when meeting prerequisites for those feats, it just limits your selection to a set number of feats (at least how I read the rules as there was no "this character counts as a fighter of equivalent level when determining weather or not the meet the prerequisites for the feats."). Not necceicaraly the intent of the rules i'm sure but that's what they seem to point to.

Thus the fact that the Kensai class that I chose is from Crystalkeep.com in the basic class section for Dungeons and Dragons, It states that this is a verient rule for Fighters, and even if it has a different name it is still considered a fighter for feat purposes.
JosephKell

10-22-06, 10:19 PM		Damage wise, when I attack you each round it is a total of 4d4+32 for one attack, but when i crit you it is 16d4+126 and at tenth level idk what can take an average damage of one hit of 166 damage. If you have any suggestions to how i can improve him than tell me, cause i am very curious.Wait, how do you go from 4d4+32 damage on a normal hit to 166 average damage.

No, Average da mage is actually (1/20)SUM (Damage at each to hit total).

I.E. The damage you deal when you roll a 2 (probably none) + the damage you deal when you roll a 3 (again, probably none) + ... + when you roll a threat. Then divide that by 20.

When you roll a threat, you have to sum the damage for 20 cases (some when you don't confirm). Then divide that by 20 before you put it in the part above.

The average of a non-crit is 42 and the average for a crit is 168 (you multipled 32 wrong).

Let's say you hit with an 11. That means your average damage is (1/20) * (42 * 8 + 2*(1/20) * (42*10 + 168*10) ) = or 27.3. Now don't forget, this factors in misses and doesn't include Damage Reduction.

To make this equation generic:
- D = Average Damage on non-crit hit.
- M = the weapon multipler.
- R = The range of numbers you threat a crit on. (19-20 becomes 2)
- T = the Target number you need on a d20 to hit. (needing an 11 sets T to 11)
- C = 1/20 (because it is used so often, even if it is a constant)
- dr = target's highest Damage Reduction (that isn't penetration)
- P = Number of times Power Critical is selected for the weapon in question.

Avg Dmg = C * [ MAX(0, 21-T-R )*(D-dr) + R*C * MAX(1, 21-T+4*P )*(M*D-dr) + R*C * MIN(19,T-1-4P)*(D-dr) ]

I think this breaks down if the Target roll is higher than the lowest threat roll. I'll see if I can fix that later. Let me double check it in Excel for more favorable numbers (i.e. T <= 21-R). If I get 27.3 with D = 42, M = 4, R = 2, T = 11, dr = 0, and P = 0. I think I got it (mostly) right.

Edit: It worked. 27.3

The crit stuff gets kind of weird.

# of Crit Confirms= MIN( 19, MAX(1, 21-T+4*P) ) yeah... The most you can have is 19 out of 20, the least is 1 out of 20 (the 20 auto hit).
# of Crit Non-confirms = (tweaking it to fix). Duh... It equals 20 - # of Crit Confirms. What an easy way to reduce the chance of error.

Edit 2: Screw Excel. I just wrote out a C++ program to do the calculations for target numbers ranging from 2 to X (to demonstrate the value of Power Critical). I will place the compilable code here, only requires the iostream source file using the namespace std.
//Average Damage Calculator
//Written by Jonathan ***** A.K.A. JosephKell
#include <iostream>

using namespace std;

double Non_Critical_Damage(int T, int R, double D, int DR);
double Crit(int T, int R, double D, int M, int DR, int P);

int main()
{

int Target=0, TargetStop = 30, Range = 1, Multiplier=2, DR = 0, PowerCritical=0;
double AverageDamage=0;
double Damage = 1;

cout<<"Enter Average Damage on a normal hit: ";
cin>>Damage;
cout<<"Enter Target\'s Highest Non-penetrated DR: ";
cin>>DR;
cout<<"Enter Weapon Critical Multiplier: ";
cin>>Multiplier;
cout<<"Enter Low term of the Critical Range (i.e. for 19-20 enter 19): ";
cin>>Range;
Range = 21-Range;
cout<<"Enter number of times Power Critical has been taken: ";
cin>>PowerCritical;
cout<<"Enter Target d20 Start: ";
cin>>Target;
cout<<"Enter Target Stop: ";
cin>>TargetStop;

if(Target < 1)
Target = 1;
if(TargetStop < Target)
TargetStop = Target +1;

cout<<"Target Number: Average Damage"<<endl;
for( ;Target <= TargetStop; Target++)
{
AverageDamage = ((double) 1/20) * ( Non_Critical_Damage(Target, Range, Damage, DR) + ((double) Range /20) * Crit(Target, Range, Damage, Multiplier, DR, PowerCritical) ) ;
cout<<Target<<" : "<<AverageDamage<<endl;
}

return 0;
}

double Non_Critical_Damage(int T, int R, double D, int DR)
{
double RetValue;
int H = 21-T-R;
if(H < 0)
H = 0;
else if(H > 19)
H = 19;

RetValue = (D - ((double) DR)) * ((double) H);
// cout<<"Non-Critical Damage is "<<RetValue<<endl;
return RetValue;
}

double Crit(int T, int R, double D, int M, int DR, int P)
{
int Confirm = 21 - T + 4*P;
double ConfirmD, NotConfirmD;


if( Confirm < 1)
Confirm = 1;
else if( Confirm > 19)
Confirm = 19;

// cout<<"Confirm count for Target "<<T<<" is "<<Confirm<<endl;
int NotConfirm = 20 - Confirm;

ConfirmD = ( D * ((double) M) - ((double) DR) ) * ((double) Confirm);
NotConfirmD = ( D - ((double) DR) ) * ((double) NotConfirm);

// cout<<"Critical Confirm Damage is "<<ConfirmD<<endl;
// cout<<"Critical Nonconfirm Damage is "<<NotConfirmD<<endl;
return (ConfirmD + NotConfirmD);
}



Edit 3: Yeah, my program doesn't work for this model because it doesn't do D&D multiplication. The Average Damage isn't actually 27.3 (it is less). Diving Charge + Scythe on critical is actually x5 damage (not x8).

So my program doesn't extend to Mounted Lance attacks or Diving charges, or anything else weird like that.

Edit 4: in case anyone actually cared if you need an 11 on a d20 to hit with the build above (and assuming that a normal hit does do 2d4+16 damage) then a Diving Charge has an expected damage of 24.15. A Normal Diving Charge hit does average 42 damage, a Critical do 105 damage (on average). So 24.15 makes sense since it is more than half of the normal hit damage.