+18 BAB, 18th Caster Level...Level 20 character. [Archive] - Wizards Community

+18 BAB, 18th Caster Level...Level 20 character. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Aiaru
11-23-06, 12:26 AM Alright, so I'm going to be trying out the following in a single-player campaign. Levels will be taken in order as follows:

Fighter 1
Wizard 6
Eldrich Knight 3
Abjurant Champion 5
Eldrich Knight 5

The character should end up with a +18 BAB and 18th caster level - full attack progression and 9th level spells. Because of Abjurant Champion I think that armor will be unnecissary; I think my DM crunched a 36+ AC when naked and without magical equipment.

The character's stats are, in order:

Str 15
Dex 18
Con 16
Int 18
Wis 12
Cha 14

Yeah, I rolled well. :)

I'm thinkin of using a greatsword for my melee damage. I'm looking for any comments or advice on feat selection, attribute-point expendature, and gear. Any suggestions on tweaking (not twinking, it's basically taken care of on that front) the characters stats or whatnot would also be appreciated. As a note, the high Dex was taken to help maximize the AC of this character without having them have to rely on equipment.

I'm looking for an unarmored fighter/mage concept. I look forward to your responses. ^_^
rilem
11-23-06, 12:31 AM You're aware that Mage Armor doesn't actually work with Abjurant Champion, right? That might lower your AC some.
Aiaru
11-23-06, 12:32 AM You're aware that Mage Armor doesn't actually work with Abjurant Champion, right? That might lower your AC some.

You sure about that?

Hmm...I actually can't recall one way or another, I'll have to go drop my DM a message.

Thanks for the heads-up.
DrunkRockPunk
11-23-06, 12:34 AM You only have +17 Bab you lose 3 from 6 levels of Wizard.
rilem
11-23-06, 12:42 AM Yep, Mage Armor is conjuration, not abjuration. It was a recent "Ask Wizards".

Which is a total screwup on WotC's part, of course, as they specifically cite mage armor as a spell A.C.'s rely on. But by the rules it doesn't work -- in core rules, there aren't ANY abjuration spells that give Armor bonus to AC.
unusualsuspect
11-23-06, 01:03 AM Just use Luminous Armor or Greater Luminous Armor.

AC that rivals a fighter in Full Plate without any of the penalties of wearing armor or having to shell out 40+ grand for it? Yeah, that could be worse.
Aiaru
11-23-06, 01:21 AM Just use Luminous Armor or Greater Luminous Armor.

What book are those in?
Rashomon
11-23-06, 01:49 AM What book are those in?

From Book of Exalted Deeds. Remember that LA and GLA also inflict a -4 on melee attacks against you and last 1hr/level. Furthermore, LA and GLA are open to any class which prepares spells, so they can be used by wizards, clerics, druids, et al - however, sorcs and favored souls et al cannot use them.
aziraphale60
11-23-06, 03:07 AM you might want to get armor anyway. one disjunction and you're screwed.
unusualsuspect
11-23-06, 03:09 AM One disjunction and EVERYONE is screwed.

It's frickin' disjunction, maaaaaan.
aziraphale60
11-23-06, 03:11 AM One disjunction and EVERYONE is screwed.

It's frickin' disjunction, maaaaaan.

lol. figured i'd point it out anyway, just so he knows it's still quite necessary.
Tenebrous_Sage
11-23-06, 03:13 AM He can always recast the spells. Though they probably have wonky components since they're sanctified; I'm too lazy to look right now.
VonRichthofen
11-23-06, 03:45 AM Just use Luminous Armor or Greater Luminous Armor.

You're doing it again, suspect. Proposing this spell to a gish.

Let me explain again: An exalted spell needs an exalten character to cast. Thus, you need NOT just be some wizard, as some people who fancy not to read the rules seem to believe.

You have to be the utmost paragon of good, you'll have to prove this over and over, putting to shame every paladin in town.
Then, if your DM feels especially generous, he might let you experience some event that indeed makes you count as exalted afterwards.

You stray but one little step from the path of virtue, and your exalted spells/feats/abilities are gone for good.
The definitions on this are pretty clear. Even if your terribly inconvinient & powerful prisoner has tried to backstab you several times in the middle of the dungeon, breaking his word whenever option presents itself, you'll just keep on taking him along - and in a courtly and well-behaved manner, that is.

Book of Exalted Deeds is not just a cheap way to max-out your character's power - it calls for a great deal of role playing engagement and actual will to sacrifice many options usually readily available even to good characters.

And second, Luminous Armor & Greater L. A. both cause STRENGTH damage to cast. Especially cool when having to re-use it after a dispel/disjunction.

What a great thought for a gish!
Qatharsis
11-23-06, 08:11 AM Ask the DM to allow Mage Armor to work with Abjurant Champion. It was obviously intended that way, as evidenced by the description.
Elf-Killer
11-23-06, 08:16 AM actually, sanctified spells can be cast by any prepared spellcaster except for the evil ones, but the target of LA and GLA must be good...

that ability damage (1d3?) can be easily be solved by polymorph...

and you guys do realize that he will get GLA extended for free right? that's +13 armor bonus and a -4 penalty to enemies engaging him in melee... 2h/lvl...

I would use it... ;)
VonRichthofen
11-23-06, 08:38 AM actually, sanctified spells can be cast by any prepared spellcaster except for the evil ones´...

Man, think of what you're saying.

Nonsense.

According to your words, every neutral cleric could cast EVERY sanctified spell spontaneously without restriction.

As the introduction says: For those willing to utterly devote themselves to good.
If that means to say "neutral" in your tongue, or even "just good-aligned", then I honestly can't help you any longer.
Elf-Killer
11-23-06, 08:44 AM open your BoED, in the magic and spells chapter, as you read it, you will notice that only evil spellcasters can't use those spells, and again, the target must only be Good.
VonRichthofen
11-23-06, 08:49 AM I cited BoED, page 83, "sanctfied Magic", 1st paragraph.

Just to demonstrate the absurdity:

According to your view, a chaotic neutral cleric 17 of Erythnul, good of slaughter, could spontaneously cast every sanctified spell in the BoED. Hands up who thinks this is feasible, or in the intent of the book.
Elf-Killer
11-23-06, 09:49 AM well, back at trying to help the OP... :rolleyes:
check with your DM, if he says it's ok to use it, than use it... I'm at work now, and can't provide a quote right now but as soon as I get home I'll look for the relevant info...
Green_eyes
11-23-06, 09:49 AM Make a custom Abjuration Magic Armor spell. That can be done. Just talk to ur DM. Or bribe him with piza. Works for me all the time. I got a custom divine Enlarge Paladin of Pelor spell for my cleric this way.
And throw in a level of Spellsword instead of Eldrich Knight. It won't hurt to ignore 10% ASF. And it's D10 vs D6. And u get higher Wil save. So why not?
Midnight_v
11-23-06, 09:50 AM Well he can... I mean... looking at what it says.

They just have to take the strength damage. Again... clerics are such Bad-sses.

I guess its time to roll up a a chaotic neutral cleric 17 of Erythnul, good of slaughter in Crimson glowing Greater luminous armor no less!

Seriously, theres nothing "mechanically" from stopping you from casting those spells in fact they're specifically allowed on everyones spell lists just like corrupt spells.
Why did they do it that way? Who knows, course there's not book of impacable neutrality is there.
Aiaru
11-23-06, 09:58 AM I'll keep in mind the spellsword thing. My group has never used multiple-class xp penalties anyway. :P

Honestly, my DM will probably just let Mage Armor be used with the prestige class; that's what we figured the PrC would do anyway. I'll check into the Luminous Armor thing anyway, because being exalted good IC is really big no stretch for me. However, I would rather avoid being exalted good as my PCs tend to be super goodie-goodies even without being exalted and I'd like to play someone who thinks of themselves on occasion for once. :rolleyes:

And what the heck is a gish? :confused:
Green_eyes
11-23-06, 10:07 AM That's u actually (= A gish is a double threat arcane-melee character.

Upd: this black ball is also Gish http://www.softplatz.com/shots/24810-src.jpg
Yet not the one we are all refering to
Check this threads
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=307309
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=150451
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=572922
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=606371
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=621174
Muspelheim
11-23-06, 10:45 AM I cited BoED, page 83, "sanctfied Magic", 1st paragraph.

Just to demonstrate the absurdity:

According to your view, a chaotic neutral cleric 17 of Erythnul, good of slaughter, could spontaneously cast every sanctified spell in the BoED. Hands up who thinks this is feasible, or in the intent of the book.

The only restriction mentioned is that evil characters cannot cast sanctified spells.

So yeah, your cleric could cast all those spells spontaneously, even if it does seem somewhat counter-intuitive (a neutral cleric devoted to a god of slaughter seems somewhat absurd as well though ...)

Feel free to house rule, but according to the actual rules presented sanctified spells does not require you to be exalted nor even good.

Most people would probably say that it's pretty reasonable to allow Mage Armor and Greater Mage Armor to work with Abjurant Champion, however, if your DM is not one of those people, you can always use the Luminous Armors instead. Just remember to buy a Pearl of Power for your cleric so you can get rid of the strength dmg.
McDungeon
11-23-06, 11:36 AM Ftr 1/wizard 4/impure prince (Magic of Eberron) 5/edk (or phantom knight, five nations) 10?

Gets Base attack 18, and 17th lvl caster.

I use the psionic version instead myself, which is...

ranger 1/psion 4/impure prince 5/slayer 10, use form of doom power, and get lots of tentacles. Of course, you'd only be good in an anime setting vs japanese girls then. :P
Omega6omega
11-23-06, 11:47 AM Where can these classes be found btw, Eldrich Knight and Abjurant Champion?
Green_eyes
11-23-06, 11:52 AM Eldrich knight is from DMG (SRD too)
Abjurant Champ - Complete Mage
Omega6omega
11-23-06, 12:17 PM hmm dont have Complete Mage yet, can someone give a quick rundown on Abjurant Champ?
Green_eyes
11-23-06, 12:36 PM 5 lvl PrC - Full BaB, Full CL and some really nice Abilities. The must have for any Gish since Spellsword.
TriOmegaZero
11-23-06, 01:05 PM Well he can... I mean... looking at what it says.

They just have to take the strength damage. Again... clerics are such Bad-sses.

I guess its time to roll up a a chaotic neutral cleric 17 of Erythnul, good of slaughter in Crimson glowing Greater luminous armor no less!

Seriously, theres nothing "mechanically" from stopping you from casting those spells in fact they're specifically allowed on everyones spell lists just like corrupt spells.
Why did they do it that way? Who knows, course there's not book of impacable neutrality is there.

I'd like to point out that he doesn't take the strength damage until the spell expires. And what cleric is going to cast that without a lesser restoration handy?

On the subject of neutral clerics of evil deities, how is Erythnul going to grant his cleric a good aligned spell? I'd think he'd find it repulsive, and come up with a profane version that requires a sacrifice of someone else.
FriendlyFrog
11-23-06, 01:29 PM Ftr 1/wizard 4/impure prince (Magic of Eberron) 5/edk (or phantom knight, five nations) 10?
Doesn't qualify for Impure prince, you need either favored enemy or access to Summon nature's ally spells. Changing Fighter to Ranger fixes it, though.
Elf-Killer
11-23-06, 02:01 PM a cleric can't cast spells with a descriptor opposed to his deity aligment...:rolleyes: most of the sanctified spells wouldn't be allowed...:cool:

however, LU and GLA don't have the good descriptor, he just needs to cast it on someone Good...
ThePrivateer
11-23-06, 07:24 PM I'll keep in mind the spellsword thing. My group has never used multiple-class xp penalties anyway. :P

Just so you know, that isn't a house rule -- PrCs don't count for purposes of multiclass penalties.
LogicNinja
11-23-06, 08:40 PM I cited BoED, page 83, "sanctfied Magic", 1st paragraph.

Just to demonstrate the absurdity:

According to your view, a chaotic neutral cleric 17 of Erythnul, good of slaughter, could spontaneously cast every sanctified spell in the BoED. Hands up who thinks this is feasible, or in the intent of the book.

This is D&D. These are rules. They are absurd sometimes. "But it makes no SENSE" isn't a valid argument against the rules.

As things stand, Sanctified spells are availible to non-Exalted clerics. A neutral cleric of Erythnul couldn't cast any of those spells which have the [Good] descriptor, but could cast ones that don't. Of course, the neutral cleric of Erythnul could make just as little sense by staying in a village and spending his time healing the sick and the wounded.
His deity might take issue. Well, his deity might take issue with Sanctified spellcasting, too, unless he can justify it.

Mechanically, Sanctified and Corrupt spells work the same way: you take ability damage/drain when they expire. The flavor is different--Sanctified spells, you protect/heal/etc. someone or smite evil even at the cost of your own strength; corrupt spells are so bad they eat some of your life-force or whatever. But just because they're called "sanctified spells" doesn't mean you have to be Exalted (or Vile, for corrupt spells) to cast them.
Ferox_the_Ancient
11-23-06, 10:27 PM um...the way the three gms ive spoken with have all said that since mage armor is specificallyf mentioned in the description that it works
Think0028
11-23-06, 10:42 PM um...the way the three gms ive spoken with have all said that since mage armor is specificallyf mentioned in the description that it works

Because that's a logical house rule. Examples have been wrong time and time and time and time... etc. ... again. Off the top of my head, I know that the prestige class Master of the Nine from Tome of Battle has an illegal example build. Just because they mention it doesn't mean it'll work.
neceros
11-23-06, 10:46 PM Because that's a logical house rule. Examples have been wrong time and time and time and time... etc. ... again. Off the top of my head, I know that the prestige class Master of the Nine from Tome of Battle has an illegal example build. Just because they mention it doesn't mean it'll work.

That's what house rules are for. It's entirely up to your gaming party, but in this case I, and my friends, would agree that mage armor should be viable.
Think0028
11-23-06, 10:48 PM That's what house rules are for. It's entirely up to your gaming party, but in this case I, and my friends, would agree that mage armor should be viable.

Oh, most definitely. As soon as my players get their grubby little mitts on Complete Mage, I'm changing Mage Armor and its kin to Abjuration.
neceros
11-23-06, 10:52 PM This makes me wonder which abjuration spells actually give a boost to Armor or Shield bonuses to AC. I looked quickly through the books I have, PHB, SC, CA, and CM. I don't think I found one, besides Sheild and Repelling Shield.

The Abjurant Champion is eally a nice little class. Short and powerful. The last special ability you get states your Caster Level is equial to your BAB or CL, which ever is higher. That's handy right there.
Carey Z W
11-23-06, 11:15 PM You stray but one little step from the path of virtue, and your exalted spells/feats/abilities are gone for good.
The definitions on this are pretty clear. Even if your terribly inconvinient & powerful prisoner has tried to backstab you several times in the middle of the dungeon, breaking his word whenever option presents itself, you'll just keep on taking him along - and in a courtly and well-behaved manner, that is.

That quote their kind of irked me. I'm a good fan of Exalted Deeds, but not of people that browbeat players about how strict they have to be when being exalted.

And no, you can stray your little path from exalted, and not lose those abilities for good. Other then Saint template, which requires you to never lose an exalted feat, all abilities can be reagined by an atonement spell.

And actually, the definitions aren't clear. At one point it says it is okay to beat your enemies unconcious, so long as you know that that person could be a hazard if he ever comes to conciousness. Now, that doesn't mean you can beat every prisoner to a comatose state, but the more powerful ones? Spellcasters for instance or Psionic BBEGs? If the characters know the BBEGs power, they are perfectly justified in making sure he can't use it until appropriate safe-guards are taken.

Read the Book of ED, Around page 18. Then chapter 2, on how to treat prisoners. The book contradicts itself, so no. It's not clear.
BarbeChenue
11-24-06, 12:24 AM The book wasn't written for DMs to enforce dogmatic morals upon players. It was partly meant as a playground for ethical discussions inclined towards goodness. Since there is no objective and absolute good to align ourselves towards (even good acts for common sense can be hazy in special circumstances, and even D&D's alignment system has room for relativism), it's hard to act in a 100% good way.
Aiaru
11-24-06, 12:37 AM Alright, so my DM basically said he'd treat any spell that gave a shield or armor bonus to AC as legal for the Abjurant Champion PrCs ability. So the mage armor is in. :D:dancin: :cheer: :D
FeceMan
11-24-06, 12:51 AM For one thing...

Just have mage armor work with the ****ing abjurant champion. Okay? That was the intent. WotC just suck at stuff, so they screwed it. (By the way, if your DM is going to be a dink, just show him that it's a conjuration spell that summons actual armor and have the cleric throw an enhancement bonus on it.)

Greater Mage Armor: +11 AC
Shield: +9 AC
Deflection: +5
DEX: +7 (+4 base, +3 gloves)
Monk's Belt (will want DM to let you make custom STR items): +2 (+3 more if you're willing to devote a neck slot to it)
Alter Self (natural armor) and Scales of the Dragon (think that's the name): +11
Ioun stone: +1

That's 54 AC, not even counting the monk's belt armor or using combat expertise. If you are willing to lose another caster level, take a level (or two) of argent savant for another +4 AC.

Furthermore, your build needs to look more like...

Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 7

EDIT: If you want to go the exalted route, go VoP and make your DM hate you. A lot.
Green_eyes
11-24-06, 02:20 AM This makes me wonder which abjuration spells actually give a boost to Armor or Shield bonuses to AC. I looked quickly through the books I have, PHB, SC, CA, and CM. I don't think I found one, besides Sheild and Repelling Shield.

There is also Ectoplasmic Armor - an Abj spell that grants you armor AC against incorporeal touch atacks.
Einvaldurinn_mikli
11-29-06, 04:57 PM Le Bumb
B4cchus
11-29-06, 05:22 PM In this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=743463) we just acchieved bab 19, cl 19, 9th lvl spells at level 20 (without practiced spellcaster). Check it out.
1hitparry
11-29-06, 08:59 PM Take a level in spell sword in place of a level in EK. d8 HD, -10% to arcane spell failure, +1 to BAB, and +1 to caster level. Why not?

edit: I didn't see the post three posts above. My bad.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Aiaru 11-23-06, 12:26 AM	Alright, so I'm going to be trying out the following in a single-player campaign. Levels will be taken in order as follows: Fighter 1 Wizard 6 Eldrich Knight 3 Abjurant Champion 5 Eldrich Knight 5 The character should end up with a +18 BAB and 18th caster level - full attack progression and 9th level spells. Because of Abjurant Champion I think that armor will be unnecissary; I think my DM crunched a 36+ AC when naked and without magical equipment. The character's stats are, in order: Str 15 Dex 18 Con 16 Int 18 Wis 12 Cha 14 Yeah, I rolled well. :) I'm thinkin of using a greatsword for my melee damage. I'm looking for any comments or advice on feat selection, attribute-point expendature, and gear. Any suggestions on tweaking (not twinking, it's basically taken care of on that front) the characters stats or whatnot would also be appreciated. As a note, the high Dex was taken to help maximize the AC of this character without having them have to rely on equipment. I'm looking for an unarmored fighter/mage concept. I look forward to your responses. ^_^
rilem 11-23-06, 12:31 AM	You're aware that Mage Armor doesn't actually work with Abjurant Champion, right? That might lower your AC some.
Aiaru 11-23-06, 12:32 AM	You're aware that Mage Armor doesn't actually work with Abjurant Champion, right? That might lower your AC some. You sure about that? Hmm...I actually can't recall one way or another, I'll have to go drop my DM a message. Thanks for the heads-up.
DrunkRockPunk 11-23-06, 12:34 AM	You only have +17 Bab you lose 3 from 6 levels of Wizard.
rilem 11-23-06, 12:42 AM	Yep, Mage Armor is conjuration, not abjuration. It was a recent "Ask Wizards". Which is a total screwup on WotC's part, of course, as they specifically cite mage armor as a spell A.C.'s rely on. But by the rules it doesn't work -- in core rules, there aren't ANY abjuration spells that give Armor bonus to AC.
unusualsuspect 11-23-06, 01:03 AM	Just use Luminous Armor or Greater Luminous Armor. AC that rivals a fighter in Full Plate without any of the penalties of wearing armor or having to shell out 40+ grand for it? Yeah, that could be worse.
Aiaru 11-23-06, 01:21 AM	Just use Luminous Armor or Greater Luminous Armor. What book are those in?
Rashomon 11-23-06, 01:49 AM	What book are those in? From Book of Exalted Deeds. Remember that LA and GLA also inflict a -4 on melee attacks against you and last 1hr/level. Furthermore, LA and GLA are open to any class which prepares spells, so they can be used by wizards, clerics, druids, et al - however, sorcs and favored souls et al cannot use them.
aziraphale60 11-23-06, 03:07 AM	you might want to get armor anyway. one disjunction and you're screwed.
unusualsuspect 11-23-06, 03:09 AM	One disjunction and EVERYONE is screwed. It's frickin' disjunction, maaaaaan.
aziraphale60 11-23-06, 03:11 AM	One disjunction and EVERYONE is screwed. It's frickin' disjunction, maaaaaan. lol. figured i'd point it out anyway, just so he knows it's still quite necessary.
Tenebrous_Sage 11-23-06, 03:13 AM	He can always recast the spells. Though they probably have wonky components since they're sanctified; I'm too lazy to look right now.
VonRichthofen 11-23-06, 03:45 AM	Just use Luminous Armor or Greater Luminous Armor. You're doing it again, suspect. Proposing this spell to a gish. Let me explain again: An exalted spell needs an exalten character to cast. Thus, you need NOT just be some wizard, as some people who fancy not to read the rules seem to believe. You have to be the utmost paragon of good, you'll have to prove this over and over, putting to shame every paladin in town. Then, if your DM feels especially generous, he might let you experience some event that indeed makes you count as exalted afterwards. You stray but one little step from the path of virtue, and your exalted spells/feats/abilities are gone for good. The definitions on this are pretty clear. Even if your terribly inconvinient & powerful prisoner has tried to backstab you several times in the middle of the dungeon, breaking his word whenever option presents itself, you'll just keep on taking him along - and in a courtly and well-behaved manner, that is. Book of Exalted Deeds is not just a cheap way to max-out your character's power - it calls for a great deal of role playing engagement and actual will to sacrifice many options usually readily available even to good characters. And second, Luminous Armor & Greater L. A. both cause STRENGTH damage to cast. Especially cool when having to re-use it after a dispel/disjunction. What a great thought for a gish!
Qatharsis 11-23-06, 08:11 AM	Ask the DM to allow Mage Armor to work with Abjurant Champion. It was obviously intended that way, as evidenced by the description.
Elf-Killer 11-23-06, 08:16 AM	actually, sanctified spells can be cast by any prepared spellcaster except for the evil ones, but the target of LA and GLA must be good... that ability damage (1d3?) can be easily be solved by polymorph... and you guys do realize that he will get GLA extended for free right? that's +13 armor bonus and a -4 penalty to enemies engaging him in melee... 2h/lvl... I would use it... ;)
VonRichthofen 11-23-06, 08:38 AM	actually, sanctified spells can be cast by any prepared spellcaster except for the evil ones´... Man, think of what you're saying. Nonsense. According to your words, every neutral cleric could cast EVERY sanctified spell spontaneously without restriction. As the introduction says: For those willing to utterly devote themselves to good. If that means to say "neutral" in your tongue, or even "just good-aligned", then I honestly can't help you any longer.
Elf-Killer 11-23-06, 08:44 AM	open your BoED, in the magic and spells chapter, as you read it, you will notice that only evil spellcasters can't use those spells, and again, the target must only be Good.
VonRichthofen 11-23-06, 08:49 AM	I cited BoED, page 83, "sanctfied Magic", 1st paragraph. Just to demonstrate the absurdity: According to your view, a chaotic neutral cleric 17 of Erythnul, good of slaughter, could spontaneously cast every sanctified spell in the BoED. Hands up who thinks this is feasible, or in the intent of the book.
Elf-Killer 11-23-06, 09:49 AM	well, back at trying to help the OP... :rolleyes: check with your DM, if he says it's ok to use it, than use it... I'm at work now, and can't provide a quote right now but as soon as I get home I'll look for the relevant info...
Green_eyes 11-23-06, 09:49 AM	Make a custom Abjuration Magic Armor spell. That can be done. Just talk to ur DM. Or bribe him with piza. Works for me all the time. I got a custom divine Enlarge Paladin of Pelor spell for my cleric this way. And throw in a level of Spellsword instead of Eldrich Knight. It won't hurt to ignore 10% ASF. And it's D10 vs D6. And u get higher Wil save. So why not?
Midnight_v 11-23-06, 09:50 AM	Well he can... I mean... looking at what it says. They just have to take the strength damage. Again... clerics are such Bad-sses. I guess its time to roll up a a chaotic neutral cleric 17 of Erythnul, good of slaughter in Crimson glowing Greater luminous armor no less! Seriously, theres nothing "mechanically" from stopping you from casting those spells in fact they're specifically allowed on everyones spell lists just like corrupt spells. Why did they do it that way? Who knows, course there's not book of impacable neutrality is there.
Aiaru 11-23-06, 09:58 AM	I'll keep in mind the spellsword thing. My group has never used multiple-class xp penalties anyway. :P Honestly, my DM will probably just let Mage Armor be used with the prestige class; that's what we figured the PrC would do anyway. I'll check into the Luminous Armor thing anyway, because being exalted good IC is really big no stretch for me. However, I would rather avoid being exalted good as my PCs tend to be super goodie-goodies even without being exalted and I'd like to play someone who thinks of themselves on occasion for once. :rolleyes: And what the heck is a gish? :confused:
Green_eyes 11-23-06, 10:07 AM	That's u actually (= A gish is a double threat arcane-melee character. Upd: this black ball is also Gish http://www.softplatz.com/shots/24810-src.jpg Yet not the one we are all refering to Check this threads http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=307309 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=150451 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=572922 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=606371 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=621174
Muspelheim 11-23-06, 10:45 AM	I cited BoED, page 83, "sanctfied Magic", 1st paragraph. Just to demonstrate the absurdity: According to your view, a chaotic neutral cleric 17 of Erythnul, good of slaughter, could spontaneously cast every sanctified spell in the BoED. Hands up who thinks this is feasible, or in the intent of the book. The only restriction mentioned is that evil characters cannot cast sanctified spells. So yeah, your cleric could cast all those spells spontaneously, even if it does seem somewhat counter-intuitive (a neutral cleric devoted to a god of slaughter seems somewhat absurd as well though ...) Feel free to house rule, but according to the actual rules presented sanctified spells does not require you to be exalted nor even good. Most people would probably say that it's pretty reasonable to allow Mage Armor and Greater Mage Armor to work with Abjurant Champion, however, if your DM is not one of those people, you can always use the Luminous Armors instead. Just remember to buy a Pearl of Power for your cleric so you can get rid of the strength dmg.
McDungeon 11-23-06, 11:36 AM	Ftr 1/wizard 4/impure prince (Magic of Eberron) 5/edk (or phantom knight, five nations) 10? Gets Base attack 18, and 17th lvl caster. I use the psionic version instead myself, which is... ranger 1/psion 4/impure prince 5/slayer 10, use form of doom power, and get lots of tentacles. Of course, you'd only be good in an anime setting vs japanese girls then. :P
Omega6omega 11-23-06, 11:47 AM	Where can these classes be found btw, Eldrich Knight and Abjurant Champion?
Green_eyes 11-23-06, 11:52 AM	Eldrich knight is from DMG (SRD too) Abjurant Champ - Complete Mage
Omega6omega 11-23-06, 12:17 PM	hmm dont have Complete Mage yet, can someone give a quick rundown on Abjurant Champ?
Green_eyes 11-23-06, 12:36 PM	5 lvl PrC - Full BaB, Full CL and some really nice Abilities. The must have for any Gish since Spellsword.
TriOmegaZero 11-23-06, 01:05 PM	Well he can... I mean... looking at what it says. They just have to take the strength damage. Again... clerics are such Bad-sses. I guess its time to roll up a a chaotic neutral cleric 17 of Erythnul, good of slaughter in Crimson glowing Greater luminous armor no less! Seriously, theres nothing "mechanically" from stopping you from casting those spells in fact they're specifically allowed on everyones spell lists just like corrupt spells. Why did they do it that way? Who knows, course there's not book of impacable neutrality is there. I'd like to point out that he doesn't take the strength damage until the spell expires. And what cleric is going to cast that without a lesser restoration handy? On the subject of neutral clerics of evil deities, how is Erythnul going to grant his cleric a good aligned spell? I'd think he'd find it repulsive, and come up with a profane version that requires a sacrifice of someone else.
FriendlyFrog 11-23-06, 01:29 PM	Ftr 1/wizard 4/impure prince (Magic of Eberron) 5/edk (or phantom knight, five nations) 10? Doesn't qualify for Impure prince, you need either favored enemy or access to Summon nature's ally spells. Changing Fighter to Ranger fixes it, though.
Elf-Killer 11-23-06, 02:01 PM	a cleric can't cast spells with a descriptor opposed to his deity aligment...:rolleyes: most of the sanctified spells wouldn't be allowed...:cool: however, LU and GLA don't have the good descriptor, he just needs to cast it on someone Good...
ThePrivateer 11-23-06, 07:24 PM	I'll keep in mind the spellsword thing. My group has never used multiple-class xp penalties anyway. :P Just so you know, that isn't a house rule -- PrCs don't count for purposes of multiclass penalties.
LogicNinja 11-23-06, 08:40 PM	I cited BoED, page 83, "sanctfied Magic", 1st paragraph. Just to demonstrate the absurdity: According to your view, a chaotic neutral cleric 17 of Erythnul, good of slaughter, could spontaneously cast every sanctified spell in the BoED. Hands up who thinks this is feasible, or in the intent of the book. This is D&D. These are rules. They are absurd sometimes. "But it makes no SENSE" isn't a valid argument against the rules. As things stand, Sanctified spells are availible to non-Exalted clerics. A neutral cleric of Erythnul couldn't cast any of those spells which have the [Good] descriptor, but could cast ones that don't. Of course, the neutral cleric of Erythnul could make just as little sense by staying in a village and spending his time healing the sick and the wounded. His deity might take issue. Well, his deity might take issue with Sanctified spellcasting, too, unless he can justify it. Mechanically, Sanctified and Corrupt spells work the same way: you take ability damage/drain when they expire. The flavor is different--Sanctified spells, you protect/heal/etc. someone or smite evil even at the cost of your own strength; corrupt spells are so bad they eat some of your life-force or whatever. But just because they're called "sanctified spells" doesn't mean you have to be Exalted (or Vile, for corrupt spells) to cast them.
Ferox_the_Ancient 11-23-06, 10:27 PM	um...the way the three gms ive spoken with have all said that since mage armor is specificallyf mentioned in the description that it works
Think0028 11-23-06, 10:42 PM	um...the way the three gms ive spoken with have all said that since mage armor is specificallyf mentioned in the description that it works Because that's a logical house rule. Examples have been wrong time and time and time and time... etc. ... again. Off the top of my head, I know that the prestige class Master of the Nine from Tome of Battle has an illegal example build. Just because they mention it doesn't mean it'll work.
neceros 11-23-06, 10:46 PM	Because that's a logical house rule. Examples have been wrong time and time and time and time... etc. ... again. Off the top of my head, I know that the prestige class Master of the Nine from Tome of Battle has an illegal example build. Just because they mention it doesn't mean it'll work. That's what house rules are for. It's entirely up to your gaming party, but in this case I, and my friends, would agree that mage armor should be viable.
Think0028 11-23-06, 10:48 PM	That's what house rules are for. It's entirely up to your gaming party, but in this case I, and my friends, would agree that mage armor should be viable. Oh, most definitely. As soon as my players get their grubby little mitts on Complete Mage, I'm changing Mage Armor and its kin to Abjuration.
neceros 11-23-06, 10:52 PM	This makes me wonder which abjuration spells actually give a boost to Armor or Shield bonuses to AC. I looked quickly through the books I have, PHB, SC, CA, and CM. I don't think I found one, besides Sheild and Repelling Shield. The Abjurant Champion is eally a nice little class. Short and powerful. The last special ability you get states your Caster Level is equial to your BAB or CL, which ever is higher. That's handy right there.
Carey Z W 11-23-06, 11:15 PM	You stray but one little step from the path of virtue, and your exalted spells/feats/abilities are gone for good. The definitions on this are pretty clear. Even if your terribly inconvinient & powerful prisoner has tried to backstab you several times in the middle of the dungeon, breaking his word whenever option presents itself, you'll just keep on taking him along - and in a courtly and well-behaved manner, that is. That quote their kind of irked me. I'm a good fan of Exalted Deeds, but not of people that browbeat players about how strict they have to be when being exalted. And no, you can stray your little path from exalted, and not lose those abilities for good. Other then Saint template, which requires you to never lose an exalted feat, all abilities can be reagined by an atonement spell. And actually, the definitions aren't clear. At one point it says it is okay to beat your enemies unconcious, so long as you know that that person could be a hazard if he ever comes to conciousness. Now, that doesn't mean you can beat every prisoner to a comatose state, but the more powerful ones? Spellcasters for instance or Psionic BBEGs? If the characters know the BBEGs power, they are perfectly justified in making sure he can't use it until appropriate safe-guards are taken. Read the Book of ED, Around page 18. Then chapter 2, on how to treat prisoners. The book contradicts itself, so no. It's not clear.
BarbeChenue 11-24-06, 12:24 AM	The book wasn't written for DMs to enforce dogmatic morals upon players. It was partly meant as a playground for ethical discussions inclined towards goodness. Since there is no objective and absolute good to align ourselves towards (even good acts for common sense can be hazy in special circumstances, and even D&D's alignment system has room for relativism), it's hard to act in a 100% good way.
Aiaru 11-24-06, 12:37 AM	Alright, so my DM basically said he'd treat any spell that gave a shield or armor bonus to AC as legal for the Abjurant Champion PrCs ability. So the mage armor is in. :D:dancin: :cheer: :D
FeceMan 11-24-06, 12:51 AM	For one thing... Just have mage armor work with the ****ing abjurant champion. Okay? That was the intent. WotC just suck at stuff, so they screwed it. (By the way, if your DM is going to be a dink, just show him that it's a conjuration spell that summons actual armor and have the cleric throw an enhancement bonus on it.) Greater Mage Armor: +11 AC Shield: +9 AC Deflection: +5 DEX: +7 (+4 base, +3 gloves) Monk's Belt (will want DM to let you make custom STR items): +2 (+3 more if you're willing to devote a neck slot to it) Alter Self (natural armor) and Scales of the Dragon (think that's the name): +11 Ioun stone: +1 That's 54 AC, not even counting the monk's belt armor or using combat expertise. If you are willing to lose another caster level, take a level (or two) of argent savant for another +4 AC. Furthermore, your build needs to look more like... Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 7 EDIT: If you want to go the exalted route, go VoP and make your DM hate you. A lot.
Green_eyes 11-24-06, 02:20 AM	This makes me wonder which abjuration spells actually give a boost to Armor or Shield bonuses to AC. I looked quickly through the books I have, PHB, SC, CA, and CM. I don't think I found one, besides Sheild and Repelling Shield. There is also Ectoplasmic Armor - an Abj spell that grants you armor AC against incorporeal touch atacks.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 11-29-06, 04:57 PM	Le Bumb
B4cchus 11-29-06, 05:22 PM	In this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=743463) we just acchieved bab 19, cl 19, 9th lvl spells at level 20 (without practiced spellcaster). Check it out.
1hitparry 11-29-06, 08:59 PM	Take a level in spell sword in place of a level in EK. d8 HD, -10% to arcane spell failure, +1 to BAB, and +1 to caster level. Why not? edit: I didn't see the post three posts above. My bad.