Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Qaetar 06-16-04, 01:02 PM	It's quite simple, really: Human Ranger 3/Ninja 1/Rogue 1/Horizon Walker 6/Cleric 1 Divine Crusader 4/Telflammar Shadowlord 4 ECL Level BAB F R W Class Abilities 1 Rng 1 1 2 2 0 Track, Favored Enemy 2 Rng 2 2 3 3 0 Combat Style: Two-Weapon Fighting 3 Nin 1 3 3 5 0 Ninja Dodge +1, SA +1d6 4 Rng 3 4 3 5 1 Endurance 5 Rog 1 4 3 7 1 SA +2d6, Trapfinding 6 HrW 1 5 5 7 1 Terrain: Underground 7 HrW 2 6 6 7 1 Terrain: Desert 8 HrW 3 7 6 8 2 Terrain: Forest 9 HrW 4 8 7 8 2 Terrain: Marsh 10 HrW 5 9 7 8 2 Terrain: Plains 11 HrW 6 10 8 9 3 Planar: Shifting 12 Clr 1 10 10 9 5 Rebuke Undead, Luck, Protection 13 DCr 1 10 12 9 7 Aura, Travel Domain 14 DCr 2 11 13 9 8 - 15 DCr 3 12 13 10 8 Electricity Resistance 5 16 DCr 4 13 14 10 9 4th Level Spells 17 TSh 1 13 14 12 9 Shadowsight, Shadow Jump 18 TSh 2 14 14 13 9 Shadow Blur 19 TSh 3 15 15 13 10 Shadow Walk 20 TSh 4 16 15 14 10 Shadow Pounce Feats: H: Weapon Focus, 1: Blind-Fight 3: Mobility 6: Spring Attack 9: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting 12: Quicken Spell-Like Ability 15: Quicken Spell 18: Divine Metamagic (Quicken) Level 20 Tactic: Three full attacks: Shadow Pounce after: Shadow Jump, Divine Metamagic Quickened Dimension Door (Divine Crusader), Quickened Spell-Like Ability (Horizon Walker) Full Attack: 16/16/16/16/16/16/11/11/11/11/11/11/6/6/6/1/1/1 ------------ Between Quicken Spell and Quicken Spell-Like Ability (BoVD), neither says you can't use both in the same round. Thus, you Quicken Spell-Like DD as a 20th Level Caster from up to 1200' away, Full Attack from Shadow Pounce. Shadow Jump up to 80', Full Attack from Shadow Pounce. Quicken Dimension Door up to 560' from Divine Crusader, Full Attack from Shadow Pounce... And you still have an MEA. (Don't know what to do with it, really.) Necessary stats: Dex 17 (ITWF), Wis 18 (Divine Crusader Bonus Spell), Cha 14 (Divine Metamagic Quicken) Pretty Bonuses include Improved Invisibility from Teflammar Shadowlord, for use with your Sneak Attack. And a re-roll from the Luck Domain. Oh, and you're True Neutral (the best alignment, since it makes you immune to the most spells.) Comments, Suggestions? (Qaetar)
Riznar 06-16-04, 01:06 PM	I think you just redefined "Teleport Ambush"
Neonsamurai 06-16-04, 01:21 PM	I am pretty sure that you can't combine a quickened spell AND a quickened spell-like ability, since a spell like ability works exactly as the spell except that it doesn't need spell components. That would be 12 attacks still but this was already shown months ago whith the RoF bladesinger. Nonetheless it is a nice 3.5 version of the double full attack shadowlord! Try to use a feral anthropomorphic giant squid for this and you get 22 attacks (24 when hasted) only with multi-attack ;)
Snow Savant 06-16-04, 03:08 PM	Nice work, Qaetar! :) Neon's point is valid. 2 free-action "spells" cannot occur on the same turn sequence for a given character. Even if one of them is a (Sp). Still 12 attacks is good, although the BAB on those lesser attacks will be greatly challenged to hit anything at 20th level CR. ---- Just to note, through a series of complex sequencing of wildshape & polymorph self stacking (the latter via Draconic Wildshape feat), a Druid with the Spell domain (and Spontaneous Domain feat) and Multiattack feat chain ... who ultimately assumes a Giant Octupus or Marilith form ... can greatly exceed the damage parameters of this build by including either individual or stacked SA dice gleaned from Dark Creeper and/or Kelvezu form. The Spell Domain gets you access to that 5th level Mage spell that gives you Dim-Door as an MEA for 1 round/level; as well as the Haste spell. Granted, that's 2 rounds of buffing to start the combo, but the damage output is off the charts. And still have remaining 9th level spellcasting and all the other goodness that comes with being a crazy high level Druid. In a rush, gotta go!
greymarch 06-16-04, 06:59 PM	The intent for shadow pounce is not to let someone get their full-attack every time they shadow pounce in a given round. The intent is to allow a character to move a certain distance, and have their full-round of actions remaining. Once they take that full-round of actions, they dont get another full-round, no matter how often they shadow pounce. You could do the same thing with a quickened Lion's Pounce (druid and ranger spell), if you allow this shadow pounce tactic.
Qaetar 06-16-04, 11:25 PM	Can you find me a rules quote on that one, Neon or Snow? I know that the intent is prolly to disallow it, but the RAW, as far as I read, doesn't. However, I do not have access to the MiniHB which has a description of Swift actions, which'll probably override the current RAW as I see it. To recap: Quicken Spell only mentions One Quickened Spell per round. Quicken Spell-Like Ability only mentions One Quickened Spell-Like Ability per round. Neither mention the other. As for the Lion's Charge, that only allows a Full Attack after a Charge, which is a Full-Round Action. If you could charge as a Free Action (Impossible, AFAIK) you would be able to Full Attack again. Telflammar Shadowlord specifically states "Any time he uses an ability, spell, or effect with the teleportation descriptor ... he may execute a full attack upon completion of the teleportation." Note: I didn't work in Magic or a bonus for being Improved Invis into my attacks. Just that I have 6 Attacks per Full Attack with a BAB of +16. And, Snow, I'm not surprised a Druid using Polymorph and Wildshape in a complex manner can beat me. However, I do need to know what the 5th Level Mage spell is that gives Dimension Door as an MEA is, because I have a free MEA with this build. In addition, I used neither Hustle nor Haste. Final recap: Unless MiniHB defines both Quickened Spells and Quickened Spell-Like Abilities as Swift actions (which it probably does; though the rules, I think, are rather unnecessary) I think the RAW supports using both in one round. The RAW definitely supports a Full Attack at the end of each of my teleports. I did not work out Magic bonuses to my attacks because I'm lazy. I'm not surprised a Druid can beat me. I need to know what the spell is for MEA Dimension Door and whether it would allow multiple DD's a round for use with my hanging MEA and Hustle. Thus, with 2 MEA DD's and Haste, I'd get 35 Attacks per round. (Qaetar)
Elhalyn 06-16-04, 11:30 PM	However, I do need to know what the 5th Level Mage spell is that gives Dimension Door as an MEA is, because I have a free MEA with this build. In addition, I used neither Hustle nor Haste. That would be Lutzaen's Frequent Jaunt. IIRC, it's in Magic of Faerun.
Himosan 06-16-04, 11:57 PM	The reason this combo doesnt work (besides conflict on swift actions) is because after you DD/SJ/LFJ you can Pounce but YOU CANT DO ANYTHING ELSE including other free actions. The only way you get more then one Pouce off is as follows: Teleport: Pounce Contingent Teleport: Pounce Quik Shadow Jump: Pounce (or a quick teleport) (edit: made same swift action mistake)
incubus 06-17-04, 12:33 AM	Originally posted by Himosan The reason this combo doesnt work (besides conflict on swift actions) is because after you DD/SJ/LFJ you can Pounce but YOU CANT DO ANYTHING ELSE including other free actions. Says who? A free action merely must occur during your turn.
snb1131 06-17-04, 12:50 AM	With all of those attacks it would be fun to work in a level of Master Thrower for the Palm Throw ability...effectively doubling the number of attacks.
Himosan 06-17-04, 12:52 AM	Originally posted by incubus Says who? A free action merely must occur during your turn. My copy of Dimension Door says: "After using this spell, you can't take any other actions until your next turn."
Vodalen 06-17-04, 01:53 AM	While it's difficult to shoehorn into a non-OA campaign, a level of maho-bujin gives you Crimson Road, which gives you iterative attacks every 3 BAB instead of 5.
Nazzareth 06-17-04, 02:11 AM	The pounce and pounce like abilities allow you to make a full attack after a shadow jump or D Door, they do not give you an extra full attack. So this can't be done sorry.
Himosan 06-17-04, 02:26 AM	That is not quite true, otherwise you would not be able to execute the example they give: Shadow Jump and then Full Attack since after Shadow Jump (std action) you dont have the full round action left needed to Full Attack after Shadow Jump. It MUST give you the extra action.
Nazzareth 06-17-04, 05:56 AM	Let me re-word my previous statement so my point is clearer, the pounce and shadow jump abilities allows you to make a full attack as if you did not use a move or standard action to D Door. It extends what you can in a round by a full attack. In other words it lets you complete a full attack after you D Door or shadow Jump as if the D Door or shadow Jump was a free action instead of the move or standard action that it took. So if you shadow jumped as a move action you could either take a standard action or use the shadow pounce ability to make a full attack, you don't get both. Or if you move then use you standard action to make a shadow jump or a D Door, you can make a full attack. It extends what you can do in a round by one full attack after a single D Door, Shadow Jump. It does not grant a full attack after every D Door or shadow jump. the pounce and shadow pounce abilities just negate the action it took to close with the enemy, leaving you with a full attack option that has to be used to make melee attacks with. By your logic if you could do same with the normal pounce ability that gives you full attack during the first round of combat if you leap on your foe. Combine this with spring attack jump on your first foe get a full attack then use your left over movement to jump at another foe and gain a full attack on them.
Enoch Van Garret 06-17-04, 09:00 AM	Hah, hey, I never thought of that.
Qaetar 06-17-04, 09:44 AM	1. Pounce requires a charge action. If you could find a way to charge multiple times in one round, you could pounce multiple times in one round. 2. I concede to the wording of Dimension Door disallowing further actions (other than Shadow Pounce's specific Full Attack). However, not all hope is lost. I will come back stronger than ever before within a day. (Qaetar)
Himosan 06-17-04, 01:50 PM	Originally posted by Nazzareth Let me re-word my previous statement so my point is clearer, the pounce and shadow jump abilities allows you to make a full attack as if you did not use a move or standard action to D Door. It extends what you can in a round by a full attack. In other words it lets you complete a full attack after you D Door or shadow Jump as if the D Door or shadow Jump was a free action instead of the move or standard action that it took. So if you shadow jumped as a move action you could either take a standard action or use the shadow pounce ability to make a full attack, you don't get both. Or if you move then use you standard action to make a shadow jump or a D Door, you can make a full attack. It extends what you can do in a round by one full attack after a single D Door, Shadow Jump. It does not grant a full attack after every D Door or shadow jump. It SHOULD do that. It actually according to any clear reading, *doesn't* (otherwise it would say "1/round"). the pounce and shadow pounce abilities just negate the action it took to close with the enemy, leaving you with a full attack option that has to be used to make melee attacks with. That is a paraphrasing of what they typically do. BUT that is NOT *precisely* what either does and that's certainly NOT what either ability says. When you argue legalities in general (not shouldda couldda) you go by the RAW. By your logic if you could do same with the normal pounce ability that gives you full attack during the first round of combat if you leap on your foe. Combine this with spring attack jump on your first foe get a full attack then use your left over movement to jump at another foe and gain a full attack on them. That is not a consequence of my logic at all. I see no way to Charge more then once per round at all (Spring Attack cannot be used with Charge).
Previn 06-17-04, 05:15 PM	Off the top of my head: Human Shadow-walker Ninja/Fighter/Dervish/Shadowlord 3/2/10/4 Feats: HB Dodge 1 Combat Expert F1 Dodge 3 Mobility F2 Weapon Focus: Scimitar 6 Leadership (Pick up a Wizard caster with the quicken spell feat and Baleful Transpostion and Benign Transposition as well as a rod of quicken lesser) D3 Spring Attack 9 Blind-Fight 12 Two-Weapon Fighting 15 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting 18 Greater Two Weapon Fighting Items: Metamagic Rod: Quicken, Lesser Spell Storing Scimitar +1 x2 Activate your Thousand Cuts ability, use you natural DD ability to close on a target and shadow pounce: Attacks: 18/18/13/13/8/8/3/3 and 18/18/13/13/8/8. Now Cast a quickened DD and take another full attack: 18/18/13/13/8/8/3/3 and 18/18/13/13/8/8. Total attacks: 18x8/13x8/8x8/3x4 or 28 attacks in a single round. Have your cohort throw some Transpositions around for another 28 attacks.
Qaetar 06-17-04, 09:14 PM	Well, the problem with using a Quickened Dimension Door after Shadow Jump is that Shadow Jump is a child of Dimension Door and Dimension Door specifcally ends your actions after Dimension Door resolves. I don't have MiniHB, but can someone rules-savvy tell me if the spell that moves an ally is a Conjuration (Teleportation) spell? (Qaetar)
Previn 06-17-04, 09:37 PM	Originally posted by Qaetar Well, the problem with using a Quickened Dimension Door after Shadow Jump is that Shadow Jump is a child of Dimension Door and Dimension Door specifcally ends your actions after Dimension Door resolves. I don't have MiniHB, but can someone rules-savvy tell me if the spell that moves an ally is a Conjuration (Teleportation) spell? (Qaetar) 1) Re-read the Shadow Pounce and Shadow Jump ability. The Shadow Jump is DD for rules purposes save where it may be placed, as is the Horizen Walker's shifting planes ability, and anything else that referneces DD as how it works. All of these abilities have the same no-action restriction of DD. The Shadowlord's Shadow Pounce ability is a special case to this (confirmed by Customer Service), otherwise the ability would be nigh useless by the rules. 2)Being conjuration has nothing to do with the Shadow Pounce ability, but the teleportation descriptor does, and yes they have it.
Qaetar 06-18-04, 10:52 AM	Ahem, Previn. 1. That's what I said. 2. It does matter because there's no such thing as a Transmutation (Teleportation) spell, AFAIK. Anyway, to all those who liked this (proven illegal) build... I give you my promised child: Stronger, Faster, Three Full Attacks, Greater TWF! (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=260792) (Qaetar)
Caelic 06-18-04, 03:12 PM	There's still a flaw in the argument. Let's accept, for the moment, that Shadow Pounce is a special case, in that it allows you to take an action--specifically, a full attack--after your Dimension Door. Well and good. It does NOT, however, allow you to cast another spell after a Dimension Door--even a quickened spell. That is not within the purview of the Shadow Pounce ability. As such, the restriction of Dimension Door remains in effect when it comes to additional spells--and thus, as you can take NO other action after a Dimension Door (even a free or swift action,) one Dim Door-like spell is all you get. You could theoretically get two full attacks this way...a full attack, followed by a quickened Dim Door, followed by a Shadow Pounce--but no more than that.
Previn 06-18-04, 06:43 PM	Originally posted by Caelic There's still a flaw in the argument. Let's accept, for the moment, that Shadow Pounce is a special case, in that it allows you to take an action--specifically, a full attack--after your Dimension Door. Well and good. It does NOT, however, allow you to cast another spell after a Dimension Door--even a quickened spell. That is not within the purview of the Shadow Pounce ability. As such, the restriction of Dimension Door remains in effect when it comes to additional spells--and thus, as you can take NO other action after a Dimension Door (even a free or swift action,) one Dim Door-like spell is all you get. You could theoretically get two full attacks this way...a full attack, followed by a quickened Dim Door, followed by a Shadow Pounce--but no more than that. Incorrect. The 'trick' lies in how a free action is handled by the game. A quickened spell is a free action. Free actions may be done at anytime during your turn even while taking another action. The Shadow Pounce ability gives you a full attack upon complition of the teleportation. While logically unsound in reality, in the game this gives you two simultaneous full attack actions as the two DD abilities resolve at the same time. In reality, thanks to the Transposition spells, the true number of attacks is limited to how many allies you can get to use the ability on you.
Isthramir 06-18-04, 07:55 PM	That's how free actions normally work ... unless there is another rule contradicting it such in the case of Dimension door. Shadow pounce may trump the rule for dimension door with regard to 1 full attack, but I don't see any justification that would let you take any other actions until the start of your next turn. Is it your contention that shadow pounce effectivly eliminates the dimension door rule enitrely? Should one be invoked do you think you could take an AoO before the begining of your next turn? I don't see anything to suggest that in shadow pounce.
Previn 06-18-04, 09:19 PM	Originally posted by Isthramir That's how free actions normally work ... unless there is another rule contradicting it such in the case of Dimension door. Shadow pounce may trump the rule for dimension door with regard to 1 full attack, but I don't see any justification that would let you take any other actions until the start of your next turn. Is it your contention that shadow pounce effectivly eliminates the dimension door rule enitrely? Should one be invoked do you think you could take an AoO before the begining of your next turn? I don't see anything to suggest that in shadow pounce. You don't understand what I'm saying. I'd start by looking up the word simultaneously: existing, happening, or done, at the same time; as, simultaneous events. You time the Dimension Door to happen simultaneously with the Shadow Jump. At the end of each (which happen at the same time) the Shadow Pounce ability gives you a full attack, thus 2 full attacks at the same time. Those attacks by-pass the DD restriction on doing nothing.
Caelic 06-19-04, 10:40 AM	I think there comes a point where you simply have to say "No, because that would be stupid." Insisting that your character is teleporting to two different destinations simultaneously would most definitely fall into that category, IMO. Remember, the RAW only work until they don't, and there are several cases in which they don't.
Previn 06-19-04, 11:07 AM	Originally posted by Caelic I think there comes a point where you simply have to say "No, because that would be stupid." Insisting that your character is teleporting to two different destinations simultaneously would most definitely fall into that category, IMO. Remember, the RAW only work until they don't, and there are several cases in which they don't. And I seem to be really good and finding those breaking points. :D
Caelic 06-19-04, 12:39 PM	Aaah, but I'm unimpressed. Sure, you killed my character four times over with the damage you dealt in a single round...but by the RAW, there are no specificed in-game effects to being dead. ;)
SaintX 06-19-04, 01:50 PM	but free actions are FREE. d-door or no d-door, theres the whole concept of being FREE.
Himosan 06-19-04, 02:39 PM	Originally posted by Previn Incorrect. The 'trick' lies in how a free action is handled by the game. A quickened spell is a free action. Free actions may be done at anytime during your turn even while taking another action. The Shadow Pounce ability gives you a full attack upon complition of the teleportation. While logically unsound in reality, in the game this gives you two simultaneous full attack actions as the two DD abilities resolve at the same time. Actually a *swift* action. There is nothing to show that you can resolve both abilities at the same time, you've made that up. In reality, thanks to the Transposition spells, the true number of attacks is limited to how many allies you can get to use the ability on you. You need to use the ability yourself to Shadow Pounce. You don't understand what I'm saying. I'd start by looking up the word simultaneously: existing, happening, or done, at the same time; as, simultaneous events. You time the Dimension Door to happen simultaneously with the Shadow Jump. At the end of each (which happen at the same time) the Shadow Pounce ability gives you a full attack, thus 2 full attacks at the same time. Those attacks by-pass the DD restriction on doing nothing. They can't resolve simultaneously (a word I cant find in the RAW in the context of free actions; "during" <> simultaneous, it's closer to "contained within" as in "during the casting of Dimension Door I use QSP, forfetting Concentration on DD and resolving QSP immediately"), if you say otherwise you need to be prepared to show explicit justifications to the contrary. Note you can't time when spells resolve only their casting, interrupting the casting of one with another is also probably going to voluntarily make one fail (see multiple round casting time spells) even if allowed. When you decide to execute the SWIFT DD "during" the other action (which is *casting* time not resolution) of the other spell/ability then the SWIFT DD goes off, BANG!, before the casting of the other is finished (automatic interruption and failure in addtion to DD limit being enforced), BANG!, it's dead Jim.
Previn 06-19-04, 06:41 PM	Originally posted by Himosan There is nothing to show that you can resolve both abilities at the same time, you've made that up. In fact, logically I can. For starters, a swift action, unless otherwise stated, can be taken anytime you could take a free action, which by default includes during another action (MHB pg.29 and XHB pg.59). You need to use the ability yourself to Shadow Pounce. True, an oversight on my part. They can't resolve simultaneously (a word I cant find in the RAW in the context of free actions; "during" <> simultaneous, it's closer to "contained within" as in "during the casting of Dimension Door I use QSP, forfetting Concentration on DD and resolving QSP immediately"), if you say otherwise you need to be prepared to show explicit justifications to the contrary. Hmm... I can't find the word immediatly in the RAW in the context of free actions. I think you need to show explict justifications that it happens that way. I on the other hand have justification. A free action "consumes a small amount of time and effort over the span of the round" and a swift action "consumes a very small amont of time." Since these abilities take an amount of time, though negligable, you can time them, which I will explain further below. Note you can't time when spells resolve only their casting, interrupting the casting of one with another is also probably going to voluntarily make one fail (see multiple round casting time spells) even if allowed. A free action can be done at anytime while taking another action normally, as per pg.139 of the PHB, and so do not disrupt the casting of other spells. As for not being able to time spells, only their casting; the casting time from start to finish remains the same unless modified by something like the quicken spell feat, so the time of when the spells resolve will always be the same amount of time after it's been cast. I.e. if casting a spell takes 3 seconds, and I want to have it go off on the 5th second, I need only wait 2 seconds. There is no reason to assume that a quickened spell's faster casting time is random. So carring this out further: If the normal Shadow step ability takes 6 second, and the quickened DD takes 1, you wait 5 second before starting the quickened DD, thus resloving both at the same time on the 6th second. When you decide to execute the SWIFT DD "during" the other action (which is *casting* time not resolution) of the other spell/ability then the SWIFT DD goes off, BANG!, before the casting of the other is finished (automatic interruption and failure in addtion to DD limit being enforced), BANG!, it's dead Jim. I'm sorry, I can't find anything in the free action rules as to when the spell 'goes off.' I think you need to show explict justifications that it happens that way, as I have done.
Himosan 06-19-04, 10:19 PM	Originally posted by Previn In fact, logically I can. For starters, a swift action, unless otherwise stated, can be taken anytime you could take a free action, which by default includes during another action (MHB pg.29 and XHB pg.59). I'm not debating the timing of when you can take a swift action, I'm debating the "simultaneous" resolution and noting that swift actions are no longer technically free actions. Hmm... I can't find the word immediatly in the RAW in the context of free actions. I think you need to show explict justifications that it happens that way. You can't find it because it isnt there, I did an SRD search. See below for justification. A free action "consumes a small amount of time and effort over the span of the round" and a swift action "consumes a very small amont of time." Since these abilities take an amount of time, though negligable, you can time them, which I will explain further below. You can try and time them. To say you can time them precisely and perfectly is presumptious on your part. A free action can be done at anytime while taking another action normally, as per pg.139 of the PHB, and so do not disrupt the casting of other spells. Non sequitor you are incorrectly arguing from the generic to universal. Correctly they aren't prevented *unless another rule should say so*; another rule which I've already cited for you. The idea of taking actions DURING the casting of spells is described explcitly under multi-round casting spells p143: "[casting] must be consecutive and uninterrupted" and "if you lose concentration after starting the spell and before it is complete, you lose the spell". This is repeated on p174. It's repeated under the glossary p305 and made explicit that it applies to ALL spells, not just multiround casting time. It's repeated on p170. The rules are overwhelmingly clear here, you can't take any other actions while casting or you lose the spell you were casting. As for not being able to time spells, only their casting; the casting time from start to finish remains the same unless modified by something like the quicken spell feat, so the time of when the spells resolve will always be the same amount of time after it's been cast. I.e. if casting a spell takes 3 seconds, and I want to have it go off on the 5th second, I need only wait 2 seconds. There is no reason to assume that a quickened spell's faster casting time is random. So carring this out further: If the normal Shadow step ability takes 6 second, and the quickened DD takes 1, you wait 5 second before starting the quickened DD, thus resloving both at the same time on the 6th second. You've invented this framework of seconds from nothing. I'll take it one further to show why you are wrong. The time that it takes to cast both spells are far more likely (overwhelmingly more likely) to be some obscure decimal, that is nearly impossible to measure with perfect accuracy. The chance that you can time them perfectly by eyeballing it in your head approaches 0%, not 100% as you seem to imagine tho you can get close. Unfortunately "close" doesnt count, one finishes first and resolves immediately. Also proof by contradiction: such a framework of seconds would leave us to believe that a Marshall's Extra move action could be used to take 2 standard actions in a round, something we know is false. Time in D&D is somewhat abstracted and needs to stay that way. Another proof by contradiction: same framework says to me you can cast 2 Quickened Spells by doing them simultaneously with each other. We know this to be false therefore the premises you have assumed are false. Finally let's not beat a dead horse but uninterrupted means uninterrupted. You start doing something else you lose the first spell. I'm sorry, I can't find anything in the free action rules as to when the spell 'goes off.' I think you need to show explict justifications that it happens that way, as I have done. P140, "A spell cast in this manner immediately takes effect." I'll reiterate that you haven't done anything explicit but invent things.
Previn 06-19-04, 11:31 PM	Originally posted by Himosan I'm not debating the timing of when you can take a swift action, I'm debating the "simultaneous" resolution and noting that swift actions are no longer technically free actions. You've given no logical reason why there can be no simultaneous resolution, I have. As well, a swift action is exactly the same as a free action save that you are only allowed 1 per round. You can try and time them. To say you can time them precisely and perfectly is presumptious on your part. I make no presumptions. A spell has a specific process to casting it. This process does not change. This set process is demonstrateable with the use of spell books and scrolls. If it is the same set process to cast the spell, it must take the same amount of time. Why are YOU providing no evidence becisdes saying that you can't? Non sequitor you are incorrectly arguing from the generic to universal. Correctly they aren't prevented *unless another rule should say so*; another rule which I've already cited for you. :rofl: You don't quite understand the terms generic and universal do you? You can cast a quickened spell while casting another spell with out interruption. The rule says that free action can be take even during another action and the original action is carried out normally. From the SDR: You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. A free action in no way intrrupts another action. The original action is carried out normally. The idea of taking actions DURING the casting of spells is described explcitly under multi-round casting spells p143: "[casting] must be consecutive and uninterrupted" and "if you lose concentration after starting the spell and before it is complete, you lose the spell". This is repeated on p174. It's repeated under the glossary p305 and made explicit that it applies to ALL spells, not just multiround casting time. It's repeated on p170. The rules are overwhelmingly clear here, you can't take any other actions while casting or you lose the spell you were casting. Incorrect. You are cofused because you think that a free action interrupts the spell. IT DOES NOT. A free action does not break concentration, nor does it interrupt the spell. In fact, casting a quickned spell is not on the list of things that break your concentration, nor are free actions. From the SDR: You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. You've invented this framework of seconds from nothing. I'll take it one further to show why you are wrong. The time that it takes to cast both spells are far more likely (overwhelmingly more likely) to be some obscure decimal, that is nearly impossible to measure with perfect accuracy. The chance that you can time them perfectly by eyeballing it in your head approaches 0%, not 100% as you seem to imagine tho you can get close. Unfortunately "close" doesnt count, one finishes first and resolves immediately. You're the one inventing things. A far as the game system is concerned, perfect accuracy exists, every round is 6 seconds, which has a set types of actions you can take, and how you can take them. I don't care abut your ramblings that have no context in the game system. In fact I've already pointed out the obvious logical flaw of this in reality, which does not carry over to the game system. Also proof by contradiction: such a framework of seconds would leave us to believe that a Marshall's Extra move action could be used to take 2 standard actions in a round, something we know is false. Time in D&D is somewhat abstracted and needs to stay that way. Incorrect. First: The actions are not broken down by time to preform them, but rather the amount of effort that the action takes (reference the Full Round action description). This alone negates the above argument. As well, there is no reason to assume that a move action is equal to a standard action, either in effort or time. It is instead, a presumption on your part. The only point where actual time becomes a factor per say is casting a spell with a casting time of longer that 1 round, but that could once again be due to the amount of effort. Second: Time is not abstract unless you are talking in the time of less than 6 seconds (1 round), but we still see an obvious logical set of rules based on the existing system and rules to handle this. So once again, we have a point in my favor, with in the system all that matters, is those 6 second. Another proof by contradiction: same framework says to me you can cast 2 Quickened Spells by doing them simultaneously with each other. We know this to be false therefore the premises you have assumed are false. Incorrect. The same framework is explictly limited to 1 quickened spell per round. The how or why is not given, nor can it be deduced, thus negating your argument. [QUOTE]Finally let's not beat a dead horse but uninterrupted means uninterrupted. You start doing something else you lose the first spell. [QUOTE] Exactly, which is why I'm glad that preforming a free action in now effect the original action. As per both the SRD and the PHB: You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. If you are having proble understanding what 'while taking another action NORMALLY' means, I cannot help you. P140, "A spell cast in this manner immediately takes effect." I'll reiterate that you haven't done anything explicit but invent things. Your quote is out of context, and has no relevance to the argument. It is specifically refering to a spell with a casting time of 1 standard action, and does not cover all spells as it notes. I've proven a logical counter point to every argument you gives, all of which are based on a false premise: That a free/swift action interrupts a normal action and/or prevents concentration. I cannot stress this enough to you, but it does not. As an example: You can cast a quickened spell while casting a summon monster spell without losing either spell. If you still have doubts, I suggest you contact the Sage, or Customer Service on the use of free actions. The example I've provided above would an excellent example to use.
horndgod 06-20-04, 02:33 AM	However, you can still only use one swift action each round. Otherwise, it is reasonable to say that an action is being taken until it resolves. Therefore, if the multiple Shadow Pounce strategy is to work, all the actions must be simultaneous. Here's why: Assume that you've used the Shadow Jump and the 2 Quickened abilities at the same time. If the actions don't resolve simultaneously, then one of them must resolve first. Once one of them resolves, it is illegal for the other two to resolve. The other two are still being performed, but no other actions can be taken after DD resolves. This means that the actions must resolve simultaneously, which leads to the interesting state of affairs in which you exist in 3 different locations at the same time. Even if this were possible, a full attack is most definitely not a free action, and thus, you can't take 3 full attacks at the same time, unless you've somehow split yourself into multiple people. Actions don't generally have delays between the action and the result. Delay Spell and low level Candle Casters are notable exceptions. If you know of rules supporting delay between an action and it's result, by all means, mention it.
Himosan 06-20-04, 05:42 AM	I make no presumptions. A spell has a specific process to casting it. This process does not change. This set process is demonstrateable with the use of spell books and scrolls. If it is the same set process to cast the spell, it must take the same amount of time. Why are YOU providing no evidence becisdes saying that you can't? I put on my socks every morning, it's the same process, one sock, then the other and yet, measured precisely the time varies slightly. On top of that even if the time were exactly the same each time I put on my socks, it is NIGH IMPOSSIBLE for me to measure this time exactly and precisely. :rofl: You don't quite understand the terms generic and universal do you? Example of the distinctiion I've drawn: typically you can cast a quickened Stoneskin as a Swift Action. Universally you may not be allowed to do this, e.g. specifically, when held or pinned you may not be able to do this. Generally speaking, you can take a free action DURING another action. Universally no, you can't do this in every possible and conceivable situation, example: while casting a spell. Spells cannot be interrupted or the whole thing fails. You can cast a quickened spell while casting another spell with out interruption. The rule says that free action can be take even during another action and the original action is carried out normally. Absolutely nothing says that it doesn't interrupt the action. Look up interrupt in your dictionary, man. "to break the continuity of." So, here's an example of unbroken continuity: Begin Casting X Finish Casting X; Resolve X the continuity was uninterrupted. this can, with your reasoning (finishing the Quik spell first intentionally), become: Begin Casting X Begin Casting Y Finish Casting Y; Resolve Y Finish Casting X; Resolve X Oh my, the continuity has been broken. The casting of X was interrupted, it was not continuous. If you can't grasp that then "I can't help you." A free action in no way intrrupts another action. The original action is carried out normally. These two sentences DO NOT mean the same thing NOR does the former follow from the latter as you would wish. I'm sorry, it doesnt, if you think it does put your argument in syllogistic form. I make an attack on a creature and it passes right through the beast. As a free action I decide to quickdraw my backup ghost touch weapon. I then continue resolving my full attack normally. This does not mean the full attack was not interrupted. In fact it was interrupted for a very small amount of time. More importantly and thankfully, full attack does not have a requirement of unbroken continuity (like casting a spell does). A free action trivially interrupts another actition that it is taken "during". You are cofused because you think that a free action interrupts the spell. IT DOES NOT. A free action does not break concentration, nor does it interrupt the spell. Cite rules that unambiguously lead you to your conclusion and how it is reached logically. Dont just cite a rule and then write your conclusion like they are somehow magically connected. In fact, casting a quickned spell is not on the list of things that break your concentration, nor are free actions. Where's this universal list of things that interrupt spellcasting you are apparently citing? "Not on list = action is ok", which IS your argument, demands that the list be comprehensive. You're the one inventing things. A far as the game system is concerned, perfect accuracy exists, every round is 6 seconds, which has a set types of actions you can take, and how you can take them. I don't care abut your ramblings that have no context in the game system. In fact I've already pointed out the obvious logical flaw of this in reality, which does not carry over to the game system. I dont doubt that perfect timing exists, I doubt your character's ability to measure it and start casting the quickened spell at precisely the right time. The fact that your character knows a round is exactly six seconds isnt going to make his guess any closer. At best he gets really close and a coinflip determines which goes off first. As well, there is no reason to assume that a move action is equal to a standard action, either in effort or time. It is instead, a presumption on your part. You misunderstood then, I did not say they were equal, I was saying 3 move actions >= 2 standard actions, if you're going to break up rounds into seconds. If you're going to discard the "action A takes B seconds in the round" construction then you're doing my work for me. Second: Time is not abstract unless you are talking in the time of less than 6 seconds (1 round) Which is exactly what we are talking about (times less then 6 seconds). Why persist with tangents and nonsense? What good does it do to say "time is not abstract unless you are talking about [what we are talking about]? I'll agree to disagree at this point unless you start to make relevent and concretely spelled out logical arguments. , but we still see an obvious logical set of rules based on the existing system and rules to handle this. I dont see anything except the following assertion from you: "we can time it". Between that and the amazing fact that a round is exactly six seconds you have yet to show how you make the jump to "I can start casting Quickened Y at exactly <a very short period of time> before I finish casting X." And that is independant of the interruption problems.
Previn 06-20-04, 11:17 AM	Himosan, Real life logic does not translate to the d20 system and magic. Please don't bring up meaningless real life examples again. As for definitions, from Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary: Normal:According to an established norm, rule, or principle; conformed to a type, standard, or regular form; performing the proper functions; not abnormal; regular; natural; analogical. Interrupt:To break into, or between; to stop, or hinder by breaking in upon the course or progress of; to interfere with the current or motion of; to cause a temporary cessation of; as, to interrupt the remarks speaking. A free action (casting a quickned spell) does not stop, does not hinder in the course or progress of, does not interfere with the current motion of and does not cause a temporary cessation of a normal action. In other words, there was no interruption, the action is carried out normally, just like the book says. I dont see anything except the following assertion from you: "we can time it". I see you haven't been listening: A free action "consumes a small amount of time and effort over the span of the round" and a swift action "consumes a very small amont of time." Thus these abilities take time. Since the process for casting the spell is the same every time (a fact supported by the way that scrolls and spellbooks work) the amount of time is, in game terms the same every time you cast the spell. If the casting of a spell takes time, and takes the same amount of time each use, then it is a logical conculsion that you can time them. Contact the Saga, or Customer service and ask about casting a quickened spell while cast summon monster, and is the summon monster spell is disrupted. Obviously nothing else is going to show you that you are wrong. horndgod, Granted you can only take 1 swift action in a round, I've already stated this and never try to use more than one free/swift action. I would also point out that technically you need not finish the action prior to a DD. I would contend that if you begin it before passing through the DD which allows you to take no other actions after passing through it, that you would be allowed to finish it (you're taking no other actions, just finishing a previous one). This would be a very rare example I would imagine and would rarely if ever have any actual impact on the game, as well as being outside the spirit, but not the letter of the rules. As for existing multiple places at the same time, what can I say? This is magic, it doesn't always work like we think it would. ;)
Fwib 06-20-04, 12:21 PM	Hooray for people who can have a big argument with hardly any abuse at all. I don't know which side, I'd come down on if I had my books, or had bothered to check the SRD, but I salute nice detailed, page-and-line-quoting discussion.
horndgod 06-20-04, 02:08 PM	Originally posted by Previn I would also point out that technically you need not finish the action prior to a DD. I would contend that if you begin it before passing through the DD which allows you to take no other actions after passing through it, that you would be allowed to finish it (you're taking no other actions, just finishing a previous one). This would be a very rare example I would imagine and would rarely if ever have any actual impact on the game, as well as being outside the spirit, but not the letter of the rules. As for existing multiple places at the same time, what can I say? This is magic, it doesn't always work like we think it would. ;) Were your interpretation correct, we could expect the DD description to say "After using this spell, you can't start any other actions until your next turn." Were it the case that you could take actions and finish them later than there is a much easier way to get 18 attacks in a round. Spend a few rounds taking the full attack action, but only using the first attack of each one. Then, finish all the full attacks in the same round. You're not actually taking the actions this round you see, you're just finishing previous actions. Taking an action does not just mean starting an action. If I decide to take a donut from the table, the decision is not enough to qualify me as having taken the donut. I must still reach out and actually take the donut. Taking an action means initiating, performing, and completing it.
Previn 06-20-04, 06:03 PM	Originally posted by horndgod Were your interpretation correct, we could expect the DD description to say "After using this spell, you can't start any other actions until your next turn." Were it the case that you could take actions and finish them later than there is a much easier way to get 18 attacks in a round. Spend a few rounds taking the full attack action, but only using the first attack of each one. Then, finish all the full attacks in the same round. You're not actually taking the actions this round you see, you're just finishing previous actions. Taking an action does not just mean starting an action. If I decide to take a donut from the table, the decision is not enough to qualify me as having taken the donut. I must still reach out and actually take the donut. Taking an action means initiating, performing, and completing it. I would have to say that taking an action is synonymous with starting an action, and I would note that it says you can take no other actions after DDing. I'll grant that it is clearly against the spirit of the rules as we understand them, but not the letter. If you culd point out something that deals with starting an action rather than taking it, I would be interested. Moving on: If you could draw out an action to beyond the time that it normally takes, I would agree with your assesment, but to my knowledge, you can't do this (onec agian, feel free to point me to anything that would say otherwise). I must admit that I can't see how prolonging an action has any relivance though, since it was never claimed in the discussion.