Post/Author/DateTime	Post
findingfreedom 04-06-05, 12:28 AM	Eldritch Lyrist The Eldritch Lyrist ends up with a +14 BAB, ok Hitpoints, A lot of skill points, and the ability to cast 9th level arcane and divine spells. Rogue 2/Bard 6/Druid 1/Ur-priest 1/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 9 Hit Dice 2d6 + 6d6 + 1d8 + 1d8 + 1d6 + 9d6 (avg d6.2 avg HP 124) Base Attack Bonus +14/+9/+4; Saves +7/+14/+11; Feats Required: Spell Focus (evil), Iron Will Skills Required: Bluff 6 ranks, Knowledge (Arcana) 5 ranks, Knowledge (The Planes) 5 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 8 ranks, Spellcraft 8 ranks, Decipher Script 7 ranks, Diplomacy 7 ranks, Gather Information 7 ranks, Knowledge (nature) 7 ranks, Perform (String Instrument) 13 ranks, Sleight of Hand 7 ranks, Speak Language (Druidic), Knowledge (Arcana) 13 ranks, Listen 13 ranks, Perform (Any) 10 ranks, Profession (Astrologer) 6 ranks, Spellcraft 6 ranks. Base Save Required: Fort +3, Will +3 Alignment: Neutral Evil Spells: Able to cast 1st level arcane and divine spells; Able to cast 3rd level arcane spells. Special: Bardic Knowledge, Evasion, Bardic Music, Lose Previous Divine Spells due to Ur-Priest (Druid Spells gone) Attribute Distribution Depends. For 9th level Divine, Wisdom 19 (By 19th Level); for 9th level Arcane, Charisma 19 (By 20th Level). A high Intelligence is HIGHLY recommended for the heavy skill requirements. Fighting: Strength to make up for lower BAB. Dex to help with AC. Constitution to take damage. Human (Any Race is possible though. Probably even a better idea, considering the high Cha and Wis requirements at Higher Levels.) 1 Rogue 1: Iron Will 2 Rogue 2: 3 Rogue 2/Bard 1: Spell Focus (evil) 4 Rogue 2/Bard 2: 5 Rogue 2/Bard 3: 6 Rogue 2/Bard 4: 7 Rogue 2/Bard 5: 8 Rogue 2/Bard 6: 9 Rogue 2/Bard 6/Druid 1: 10 Rogue 2/Bard 6/Druid 1/Ur-Priest 1: 11 Rogue 2/Bard 6/Druid 1/Ur-Priest 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 1: 12 Rogue 2/Bard 6/Druid 1/Ur-Priest 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 1/Sublime Chord 1: 13 Rogue 2/Bard 6/Druid 1/Ur-Priest 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 2/Sublime Chord 1: 14 Rogue 2/Bard 6/Druid 1/Ur-Priest 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 3/Sublime Chord 1: 15 Rogue 2/Bard 6/Druid 1/Ur-Priest 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 4/Sublime Chord 1: 16 Rogue 2/Bard 6/Druid 1/Ur-Priest 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 5/Sublime Chord 1: 17 Rogue 2/Bard 6/Druid 1/Ur-Priest 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 6/Sublime Chord 1: 18 Rogue 2/Bard 6/Druid 1/Ur-Priest 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 7/Sublime Chord 1: 19 Rogue 2/Bard 6/Druid 1/Ur-Priest 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 8/Sublime Chord 1: 20 Rogue 2/Bard 6/Druid 1/Ur-Priest 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 9/Sublime Chord 1: This gives Spell Levels of a: 7th level Bard (3rd level Arcane spells) 10th level Ur-Priest (9th level Divine spells) 9th level Sublime Chord (9th level arcane spells) Well, that's my first build! I didn't include non-required feats because they can go anywhere really. Suggestions for feats? This is definately a Multiple Attribute Dependent (M.A.D.) Build! My DM"s usually give an 13-18 ability array, so it works well with that. I've checked all the requirements, and I find that they can all be fulfilled. If you see any errors, or have any advice, please let me know! Chris
Mommy was an Orc 04-06-05, 09:26 AM	Two problems: you need to be able to cast 3rd level arcane spells - Bard 6 only casts 2nd level ones. The other problem is you're going to suck horribly until about 15th level - at 15th level, you're now able to cast 5th level divine and 7th level arcane. A Mystic Theurge build is casting 6th level in each.
findingfreedom 04-06-05, 09:58 AM	Two problems: you need to be able to cast 3rd level arcane spells - Bard 6 only casts 2nd level ones. The other problem is you're going to suck horribly until about 15th level - at 15th level, you're now able to cast 5th level divine and 7th level arcane. A Mystic Theurge build is casting 6th level in each. Actually, the first level of fochlucan lyrist raises the bard's casting level, therefore allowing entrance into Sublime Chord. The other 8 levels of Fochlucan Lyrist apply towards the Sublime Chord, not the bard. You must also consider that this build provides a lot of skills as well as a higher BAB than Mystic theurge, and also bardic knowledge, bardic music and all the abilities associated with it. Also, A bard/rogue isn't so bad to play out for 10 levels. Personally, I love the idea of the skill monkey/emissary becoming a terribly powerful spellcaster. It's easier to play than a druid 3/wizard 3, if you ask me....
Mommy was an Orc 04-06-05, 11:08 AM	It isn't the 1st 8 levels that is the problem, though a Rogue/Bard isn't that great. It is what happens once you start changing over. You've basically got 7 levels of being weaker than an optimized build then 7 levels of being significantly weaker than an optimized build. And then you're taking 2 fast advancement classes that want you to advance them as fast as possible and you delay advancement of them by 1-2 levels to make it all work. Bard 6/Druid 1/Ur-Priest 2/AH 10/Sublime Chord 1 build pretty much beats the living daylights out of you at all levels except 1st. At 13th level, is casting 5th level divine and 6th level arcane when you're casting 3rd level divine and 5th level arcane. And it almost has as many skill points... Also, Arcane Hiero has a fair BAB - a Druid 3/Wizard 3/MT 4/AH 10 has a BAB of +12. Also, A bard/rogue isn't so bad to play out for 10 levels. Personally, I love the idea of the skill monkey/emissary becoming a terribly powerful spellcaster. It's easier to play than a druid 3/wizard 3, if you ask me....
Kuroi Kenshi 04-06-05, 01:28 PM	Actually, the first level of fochlucan lyrist raises the bard's casting level, therefore allowing entrance into Sublime Chord. The other 8 levels of Fochlucan Lyrist apply towards the Sublime Chord, not the bard. Err, does FL not have that paragraph that's at the end of every description of PrCs that advance spellcasting progression in a previous spellcasting class? The one that says you can only advance spellcasting levels in classes you had before taking the prestige class.
findingfreedom 04-06-05, 02:03 PM	Err, does FL not have that paragraph that's at the end of every description of PrCs that advance spellcasting progression in a previous spellcasting class? The one that says you can only advance spellcasting levels in classes you had before taking the prestige class. If you read the build, you would see that the Sublime Chord is taken at 12th level, after one level of FL, then the levels after 12th apply towards the Sublime chord, not the bard. If you're referring to whether or not you can switch the spellcasting class you raise mid - progression, I don't know. I don't see why you couldn't. On another note, I can't believe how much resistance I got from you guys. First build, and all you can do is tear it apart. All the builds you threw back at me have at least 30 less skill points, less hp, and a smaller BAB. This character is not supposed to be a mystic theurge. He has a 14 BAB, almost as good as a cleric. He ends up with more than a d6 hd, and can even cast 9th level spells when all is done. It IS hard to play up to 20th, but it's an investment. In the end, at 20th level, it would be your build that would be easily beaten. Thanks for the support, I'm so glad you liked it. ;)
eRaz0r 04-06-05, 04:18 PM	When talking BAB, you only need to worry about two : +11 or more, and +16 or more. +14 vs +11 isn't significant enough of an advantage to delay spell levels for, IMHO. The skill points are nice, though.
Phaxi 04-06-05, 05:12 PM	Seems like a solid skill monkey and divine/arcane spellcaster to me. Will get hard getting +16 bab though.. Guess covering 3 classes is good enough.
findingfreedom 04-06-05, 05:27 PM	Seems like a solid skill monkey and divine/arcane spellcaster to me. Will get hard getting +16 bab though.. Guess covering 3 classes is good enough. Thanks! Yeah, I've been thinking about the BAB. I can get i up to +15, but at the expense of arcane spells. Would it be worth it to drop sublime chord, and rather increase regular bard casting? Not in my opinion. Hmm. Too much multiclassing. I need to look at the other Fochlucan Lyrist boards and see what they use in place of evasion. Those rogue levels don't help much.
Kuroi Kenshi 04-06-05, 05:29 PM	If you're referring to whether or not you can switch the spellcasting class you raise mid - progression, I don't know. I don't see why you couldn't. I did read the build and that is precisely what I'm referring to. I don't have CV, so maybe FL doesn't have that paragraph/section, but every other caster level-raising PrC has this clarification at the end of their "spells per day" entry. Here's the one from MT. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class or more than one divine spellcasting class before he became a mystic theurge, he must decide to which class he adds each level of mystic theurge for the purpose of determining spells per day. It's like a minor anti-cheese thing, I guess. But at any rate, it's a commonly overlooked part of PrCs that advance spell progression. As said before, FL might not have that. If it does, you can't do FL1/SC1 then advance SC with FL, because you didn't have any SC levels before becoming a FL. Simply not legal unless your DM houserules it to be okay.
eRaz0r 04-06-05, 05:38 PM	Bard casting isn't as good as bard songs. +3 or more to the entire party is nothing to sniff at really.
findingfreedom 04-06-05, 05:39 PM	"If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class or more than one divine spellcasting class before he became a mystic theurge, he must decide to which class he adds each level of mystic theurge for the purpose of determining spells per day." I don't have the description at hand, but it's probably the same. You can read this a bit more specifically. I think the "before he became a mystic theurge" is there so that people don't attempt to apply it to more than one class. It does say "he must decide to which class he adds each level of mystic theurge" so I'm assuming if the Mystci Theurge, (or whatever class) is interupted, that it'd be OK to apply future levels, or one level, or mitch match, as long as one class is chosen per level of mystic theurge. I'd think that if they wanted those spellcasting levels to be added to one class permanently, that they'd say something akin to: "If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class or more than one divine spellcasting class before he became a mystic theurge, he must decide to which class he adds his level of mystic theurge for the purpose of determining spells per day." or "all levels of mystic theurge" or "every level of mystic theurge" Doesn't it seem it could apply to a different class at a different level?
findingfreedom 04-06-05, 05:42 PM	Bard casting isn't as good as bard songs. +3 or more to the entire party is nothing to sniff at really. Not only that! The Sublime Chord can pick from Bard/Sorcerer/and Wizard spells, plus the +3 songs! (from the stacking bardic music from FL, but you probably know that) (and +4 if you take some feat I forgot) :eek:
Kuroi Kenshi 04-06-05, 05:57 PM	I think the "before he became a mystic theurge" is there so that people don't attempt to apply it to more than one class... If that was its only purpose, then there would be no need for the "before he became a mystic theurge" in the sentence.
findingfreedom 04-06-05, 06:18 PM	If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class or more than one divine spellcasting class before he became a mystic theurge, he must decide to which class he adds each level of mystic theurge for the purpose of determining spells per day." Well, in the least it's a DM's decision. I really think they don't mean it that way. But we could argue about it all day. I say it makes more sense because they refer to each individual level of mystic theurge. Why would they clarify each individual level if all your levels had to permantly go to one class? Is there some kind of FAQ about this? I can see how it could be understood each way. EDIT: "If that was its only purpose, then there would be no need for the "before he became a mystic theurge" in the sentence." If that wasn't there, you could take mystic theurge and then take other levels and apply those first few mystic therge levels towards later levels. Example: A wizard 3/druid 3 applies for mystic theurge.... But if you weren't required to stick your casting in a previous class....then you could take 4 levels of mystic theurge, THEN sublime Chord (or something) and apply those 4 levels towards SC. That's one reason why that's there. It can't be saved up and added to later levels, but there's no reason that level 5 of mystic theurge couldn't be added to sublime chord. Does this make sense to you?
eRaz0r 04-06-05, 06:26 PM	Well it's not just going to one spellcasting class that's the problem - it's the going to classes you add after first entering the PrC class. E.g take this ridiculous build Wizard 3 Sorcerer 1 Cleric 3 Mystic T 1 < here we can add the +1 arcane to either Wizard or Sorcerer Bard 1 MT 2 < here's the problem According to a strict interpretation of the MT text, one might argue that you *cannot* add that MT2 +1 Arcane level to Bard because it wasn't a spellcasting class you had before you started MT. I personally don't see how this is a big deal, but hey, whatever. Re : bardic music from Sublime Chord... the SC gets 1/2 SC+Bard levels for bardic music... so it's not quite as good as full Bard for music. I don't recall what FL gets for music (full music?) If so, you're better off stacking FL levels on Bard for music purposes. In any case, one doesn't become a SC to get Sorcerer casting... one does it to get 9th level spells on a decent Bard Song ability.
Phaxi 04-06-05, 07:35 PM	Too much multiclassing. I need to look at the other Fochlucan Lyrist boards and see what they use in place of evasion. Those rogue levels don't help much. Maybe.. somehow you could fit in 2 levels of spelldancer (magic of faerūn) for evasion, but it requires 3rd level spells. Another option is to get a level of Initiate of Draconic Mysteries (draconomicon) that gets evasion at 1st level. Both prcs require alot of feats, but you have some to spare, at least if you go human, which is probably a must since the loss of rogue levels will reduce your skill points significantly.
findingfreedom 04-06-05, 08:21 PM	Thanks for those suggestions! The initiate of draconic mysteries could actually fit quite nicely. It would end up more like: Bard 7/initiate of draconic mysteries 1/Druid 1/ Ur-Priest 1/Sublime Chord (BEFORE F. Lyrist!!!! Haha!)/Fochlucan Lyrist 9 The good: An extra level in Sublime lyrist, better caster level, a level faster too. Better saves. The bad: A few less skills. 14 less. And 3 feats used up. It's really up to your preference... It's close... But if your GM doesn't allow weird spell porgression rules, (discussed in the above few posts) this would be perfect! Thanks for the idea!
Debug0x2a 04-06-05, 08:34 PM	If you want another level to play with drop the level of druid and change your race to Maenad, and make sure you have an Int mod of at least 1. Maenad is from the Expanded Psionics Handbook, and can learn druidic without actually being a druid. Then just go Bard7/Shadowdancer2/Ur-Priest1/Sublime Chord1/Fochluhan Lyrist9 and still have 1 level to play around with, probably either for bard or shadowdancer.
Erudite 04-06-05, 10:00 PM	If you want another level to play with drop the level of druid and change your race to Maenad, and make sure you have an Int mod of at least 1. Maenad is from the Expanded Psionics Handbook, and can learn druidic without actually being a druid. Then just go Bard7/Shadowdancer2/Ur-Priest1/Sublime Chord1/Fochluhan Lyrist9 and still have 1 level to play around with, probably either for bard or shadowdancer. Actually, you can tweek this to be: Bard 6/Mindbender 1/Shadowdancer 2/Ur-Priest 2/Sublime Chord 2/Fochluchan Lyrist 7. This gives you Telepathy, Rebuke Undead (for Divine Metamagic cheese), and song of power. I would take the second level of Ur-Priest at 18th level along with the Divine Metamagic (persistant) feat.
findingfreedom 04-06-05, 11:17 PM	Wow! great Builds!
findingfreedom 04-06-05, 11:21 PM	I just read through Maenad, and I don't see where they can speak Druidic. Where exactly does it say that?