1st Level Ftr: Human or Half-Orc? [Archive] - Wizards Community

1st Level Ftr: Human or Half-Orc? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Corigan
07-14-05, 07:04 PM I've been thinking about CO with regard to new 1st level characters starting a new campaign. Basically I was trying to think of which character would be the best combatant and most likely to increase the survivability of a 1st level party. I made a few assumptions about what the most important facets are, including that a high attack bonus is the thing to aim for.

For character class, I decided fighter is the most effective. This was influenced by something I read on Monte Cook's site about the 3rd edition design team testing who was the most effective character in combat at 1st level. If I remember correctly it was the fighter armed with sword and shield that came out top.

Also I read somewhere on the boards about 1st level party compositions having at least one, preferably two, fighters. Anyhow my gut feeling tells me this is the best class to choose.

However, when it came to race I couldn't figure which was technically better, human or half-orc because, whereas half-orcs get +2 Str (therefore a +1 AB) humans get that additional feat (weapon focus, a +1 AB) and although you could give the half-orc weapon focus you would not be able to give him cleave as well, which in my perception seems to be quite handy at 1st level (or perhaps I've played to much warhammer quest.)
ninjarabbit
07-14-05, 07:16 PM It depends on what type of fighter you want.
Particle
07-14-05, 07:17 PM I wouldnt give my Fighter WF, unless you need it later for a PrC. At lvl 1, the Half Orc will be superior, albeit maybe only slightly so. In the long run, its a close call. I would go for Human, but thats just my personal preference.
Kintara
07-14-05, 08:16 PM What books are available to you? How much focus do you want to put on low-level play?
Corigan
07-15-05, 03:32 PM I have the three core books, sorry, should have stated that.

Well, I've been thinking of what character to play for a new campaign, starting at 1st level. My first thoughts were about creating a min/maxed, "optimised" fighter.

I'm not sure if thats the direction I'm going to go in but if the other players all want to be spellcasters, I may have to.

I took the route that optimises for low level play purely as way of surviving 1st level as oppose to an approach which plans for future improvements.
DDogwood
07-15-05, 03:43 PM "optimised" can mean a few different things; what do you want your fighter to do?

If you are looking for the classic min/max damage output fighter, a Half-Orc Fighter with a two-handed weapon is hard to beat. If you are looking for a fighter who is effective in a wide range of combat situations, a Human Fighter with Power Attack, Combat Expertise, and Dodge can be a good place to start (not necessarily super-powerful at 1st level, but with fighter bonus feats, this character can have a ridiculously wide range of combat options over the next few levels).
hardcharger25
07-15-05, 04:12 PM This seems a very difficult choice for you.

Whenever I think Fighter.. I just start thinking "tank".. Maybe if you use another weapon that doesn't make your tank just a gung-ho machine. Use a weapon that will give your fighter something different than the norm.

Like a halberd or a flail to give your character just that extra edge by using trip attacks.

But I would definently go Human. Extra feat at first level and an extra skill point every level thereafter.

Is that a good exchange for darkvision?

Good luck!
Devinstater
07-15-05, 04:21 PM If I understand correctly, you want a human or half-Orc fighter that is powerful/high surviveability at level 1.

I'm also going to assume that you will play past 1st level, so I will place some weight on the future as well.

HUMAN: Human to me wins out at level 1 because you can get the money shot feats in a couple feat trees.

Archer: Point Blank, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot. High surviveability for you especially, because you aren't in direct melee, and when you do you are still good with high AC and HP. Rapid shot lets you shoot an extra arrow for a -2 penalty. Better at higher levels, but you'll still find *plenty* of uses at low levels. Picture a Monk's Flurry of Blows arrow style.

Mounted Rider: Mounted Combat, Ride by Attack, Spirited Charge. With spirited charge and a lance, you do Triple damage. At level 1. That my friend, is an instant kill to basically any 1st level foe. Don't forget, +1 to hit from horseback from being in a "elevated position" relative to your target. That's almost like a free weapon focus. Using your ride skill can also negate some hits from you, further increasing your survivability, and creating good roleplaying opportunities. Ribe by attack lets you get out of the way of retaliations too.

Human shine's out over Orc hard in there two examples. The "payoff" feat, is the 3rd in each chain. Therefore only Human can access it at level 1.

HALF-ORC: Ground Pounder. Typical Power Style fighter. A lot of options, I'll first discuss how to maximize surviveability at level 1. Sword and Board for the win at lvl 1. Every bit of AC helps when one lucky swing can drop you in a single hit. If dex is high enough, Dodge is a +1 to AC which helps at level 1. Or Power Attack, Cleave is a great combo. Combat expertise if you want to be able to keep the target locked in melee with you without taking damage to allow your party to offer you support.

Two Handed weapon: Power attack is great, dodge helps negate not having a shield. You could always experiment with a buckler as well. Remember, with 2 hands, every -1 BaB you take grants 2 damage. GREAT against undead and things with low AC but high HP.

If you want to try and afford a spiked chain, take Combat Reflexes and Improved Disarm (guys, I don't have the PHB in front of me, correct me if there's a pre-req for Imp. D.) Reach means you'll be making good use of your Combat Reflexes, and it grants a +2 bonus to disarm checks. Imp. Disarm grants +4, that's +6 to your disarm roll before Str and BaB. Don't forget that Exotic Weaon proficiency Spiked Chain will be a MUST to do this.

One good shot at level 1 can drop any spell caster/rogue/monk in an instant, disarming them at level 1 means that they can't effectively fight back and drop your teamates. (The Attack of Opportunity from your 10' reach alone might drop them.) Disarm loses usefullness against animals, but I've always ran into a great many humanoid opponents at low levels especially.

Orc is better for these because of the added to-hit and to-damage. Also, dark vision is amazing at low levels, when there are few other alternatives.

Also, for level 1. CON is really important, every 1 hp could be huge. It's as important as strength. If I have 2 really good scores, I'd be tempted to max CON, if you indeed want to max level 1 surviveability. Otherwise it's gotta be STR that gets maxed.
Pellanor
07-15-05, 04:52 PM If you want to try and afford a spiked chain, take Combat Reflexes and Improved Disarm (guys, I don't have the PHB in front of me, correct me if there's a pre-req for Imp. D.) Reach means you'll be making good use of your Combat Reflexes, and it grants a +2 bonus to disarm checks. Imp. Disarm grants +4, that's +6 to your disarm roll before Str and BaB. Don't forget that Exotic Weaon proficiency Spiked Chain will be a MUST to do this.
Pre-req: Combat expertise.
Which is something that most half-orcs won't have at 1st level, due to the inteligence pre-req. Good for the human to take however.
Baneslayer
07-15-05, 05:25 PM I'd go Human Fighter, that bonus feat is a huge power boost if chosen correctly.

But the question isn't what is the best race, the question is What are your plans? Do you want 20 straight levels or is there a PrC in your future? This influences the build more than most other question. The other thing that influences the build the most - What fighting style do you want?

Fighting Style and PrC optimizations determines everything that comes next - Stats, Race, Feats, and Skills.

The game is flexible enough that there are many paths to Optimization, you just have to pick out what your role will be and what tools you will use for us to then work on ideas.

So what do you envision yourself doing?
Leewei
07-15-05, 06:53 PM If the game will involve lots of roleplaying, I'd definitely go human unless you have a good character concept for the half orc. The two extra skill points by comparison as well as the extra charisma and simply not being loathed for having orc blood all add up to a better character for most roleplaying situations.

On the other hand, if you're playing kick-in-the-door style, half orcs are awesome. With a pure fighter, you'll have enough feats to match the human for the most part, and the added +1 attack and damage from the extra strength go pretty far. Dark vision is awesome at low levels.

I'm also a big fan of dwarves. Reduced movement stops being a problem with any sort of armor. Charisma penalty is no worse than that of the half orc. Intelligence is average, and you get some bonuses with stone and metal which are kind of neat. The +1 attack against goblinoids can come into play very frequently at low levels; the +4 dodge against giants is fantastic later on. Better yet: +2 racial save against all spells. If the world is filled with evil wizards, orcs and trolls, I'd say this package was hands-down the best.
X-Codes
07-15-05, 07:09 PM That intelligence penalty half orcs get really does stand out for Fighters. IMO every fighter should have at least 13 Int, and ideally 14. -2 Int makes that real hard.

Finally, if you are going with that mounted combat build, don't go Human, go Strongheart Halfling. They're just like normal halflings but have a bonus feat instead of +1 all saves. Then you can take your pony/riding dog anywhere your party goes.
Corigan
07-15-05, 07:45 PM Wow, thanks for all the feedback, I wasn't expecting such a complete and fully answered reply.

As to what my intentions are for the character after 1st level I guess I'd like to keep my options open.

I don't think I will be going up against a "killer DM" as such but I was intrigued by creating a character that had such a good combination of abilities that they could effectively breeze though a battle without even breaking a sweat.

You know, crush your enemies, here the lamentations of the women. . . err, no, wait, thats a different character concept altogether.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Corigan 07-14-05, 07:04 PM	I've been thinking about CO with regard to new 1st level characters starting a new campaign. Basically I was trying to think of which character would be the best combatant and most likely to increase the survivability of a 1st level party. I made a few assumptions about what the most important facets are, including that a high attack bonus is the thing to aim for. For character class, I decided fighter is the most effective. This was influenced by something I read on Monte Cook's site about the 3rd edition design team testing who was the most effective character in combat at 1st level. If I remember correctly it was the fighter armed with sword and shield that came out top. Also I read somewhere on the boards about 1st level party compositions having at least one, preferably two, fighters. Anyhow my gut feeling tells me this is the best class to choose. However, when it came to race I couldn't figure which was technically better, human or half-orc because, whereas half-orcs get +2 Str (therefore a +1 AB) humans get that additional feat (weapon focus, a +1 AB) and although you could give the half-orc weapon focus you would not be able to give him cleave as well, which in my perception seems to be quite handy at 1st level (or perhaps I've played to much warhammer quest.)
ninjarabbit 07-14-05, 07:16 PM	It depends on what type of fighter you want.
Particle 07-14-05, 07:17 PM	I wouldnt give my Fighter WF, unless you need it later for a PrC. At lvl 1, the Half Orc will be superior, albeit maybe only slightly so. In the long run, its a close call. I would go for Human, but thats just my personal preference.
Kintara 07-14-05, 08:16 PM	What books are available to you? How much focus do you want to put on low-level play?
Corigan 07-15-05, 03:32 PM	I have the three core books, sorry, should have stated that. Well, I've been thinking of what character to play for a new campaign, starting at 1st level. My first thoughts were about creating a min/maxed, "optimised" fighter. I'm not sure if thats the direction I'm going to go in but if the other players all want to be spellcasters, I may have to. I took the route that optimises for low level play purely as way of surviving 1st level as oppose to an approach which plans for future improvements.
DDogwood 07-15-05, 03:43 PM	"optimised" can mean a few different things; what do you want your fighter to do? If you are looking for the classic min/max damage output fighter, a Half-Orc Fighter with a two-handed weapon is hard to beat. If you are looking for a fighter who is effective in a wide range of combat situations, a Human Fighter with Power Attack, Combat Expertise, and Dodge can be a good place to start (not necessarily super-powerful at 1st level, but with fighter bonus feats, this character can have a ridiculously wide range of combat options over the next few levels).
hardcharger25 07-15-05, 04:12 PM	This seems a very difficult choice for you. Whenever I think Fighter.. I just start thinking "tank".. Maybe if you use another weapon that doesn't make your tank just a gung-ho machine. Use a weapon that will give your fighter something different than the norm. Like a halberd or a flail to give your character just that extra edge by using trip attacks. But I would definently go Human. Extra feat at first level and an extra skill point every level thereafter. Is that a good exchange for darkvision? Good luck!
Devinstater 07-15-05, 04:21 PM	If I understand correctly, you want a human or half-Orc fighter that is powerful/high surviveability at level 1. I'm also going to assume that you will play past 1st level, so I will place some weight on the future as well. HUMAN: Human to me wins out at level 1 because you can get the money shot feats in a couple feat trees. Archer: Point Blank, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot. High surviveability for you especially, because you aren't in direct melee, and when you do you are still good with high AC and HP. Rapid shot lets you shoot an extra arrow for a -2 penalty. Better at higher levels, but you'll still find plenty of uses at low levels. Picture a Monk's Flurry of Blows arrow style. Mounted Rider: Mounted Combat, Ride by Attack, Spirited Charge. With spirited charge and a lance, you do Triple damage. At level 1. That my friend, is an instant kill to basically any 1st level foe. Don't forget, +1 to hit from horseback from being in a "elevated position" relative to your target. That's almost like a free weapon focus. Using your ride skill can also negate some hits from you, further increasing your survivability, and creating good roleplaying opportunities. Ribe by attack lets you get out of the way of retaliations too. Human shine's out over Orc hard in there two examples. The "payoff" feat, is the 3rd in each chain. Therefore only Human can access it at level 1. HALF-ORC: Ground Pounder. Typical Power Style fighter. A lot of options, I'll first discuss how to maximize surviveability at level 1. Sword and Board for the win at lvl 1. Every bit of AC helps when one lucky swing can drop you in a single hit. If dex is high enough, Dodge is a +1 to AC which helps at level 1. Or Power Attack, Cleave is a great combo. Combat expertise if you want to be able to keep the target locked in melee with you without taking damage to allow your party to offer you support. Two Handed weapon: Power attack is great, dodge helps negate not having a shield. You could always experiment with a buckler as well. Remember, with 2 hands, every -1 BaB you take grants 2 damage. GREAT against undead and things with low AC but high HP. If you want to try and afford a spiked chain, take Combat Reflexes and Improved Disarm (guys, I don't have the PHB in front of me, correct me if there's a pre-req for Imp. D.) Reach means you'll be making good use of your Combat Reflexes, and it grants a +2 bonus to disarm checks. Imp. Disarm grants +4, that's +6 to your disarm roll before Str and BaB. Don't forget that Exotic Weaon proficiency Spiked Chain will be a MUST to do this. One good shot at level 1 can drop any spell caster/rogue/monk in an instant, disarming them at level 1 means that they can't effectively fight back and drop your teamates. (The Attack of Opportunity from your 10' reach alone might drop them.) Disarm loses usefullness against animals, but I've always ran into a great many humanoid opponents at low levels especially. Orc is better for these because of the added to-hit and to-damage. Also, dark vision is amazing at low levels, when there are few other alternatives. Also, for level 1. CON is really important, every 1 hp could be huge. It's as important as strength. If I have 2 really good scores, I'd be tempted to max CON, if you indeed want to max level 1 surviveability. Otherwise it's gotta be STR that gets maxed.
Pellanor 07-15-05, 04:52 PM	If you want to try and afford a spiked chain, take Combat Reflexes and Improved Disarm (guys, I don't have the PHB in front of me, correct me if there's a pre-req for Imp. D.) Reach means you'll be making good use of your Combat Reflexes, and it grants a +2 bonus to disarm checks. Imp. Disarm grants +4, that's +6 to your disarm roll before Str and BaB. Don't forget that Exotic Weaon proficiency Spiked Chain will be a MUST to do this. Pre-req: Combat expertise. Which is something that most half-orcs won't have at 1st level, due to the inteligence pre-req. Good for the human to take however.
Baneslayer 07-15-05, 05:25 PM	I'd go Human Fighter, that bonus feat is a huge power boost if chosen correctly. But the question isn't what is the best race, the question is What are your plans? Do you want 20 straight levels or is there a PrC in your future? This influences the build more than most other question. The other thing that influences the build the most - What fighting style do you want? Fighting Style and PrC optimizations determines everything that comes next - Stats, Race, Feats, and Skills. The game is flexible enough that there are many paths to Optimization, you just have to pick out what your role will be and what tools you will use for us to then work on ideas. So what do you envision yourself doing?
Leewei 07-15-05, 06:53 PM	If the game will involve lots of roleplaying, I'd definitely go human unless you have a good character concept for the half orc. The two extra skill points by comparison as well as the extra charisma and simply not being loathed for having orc blood all add up to a better character for most roleplaying situations. On the other hand, if you're playing kick-in-the-door style, half orcs are awesome. With a pure fighter, you'll have enough feats to match the human for the most part, and the added +1 attack and damage from the extra strength go pretty far. Dark vision is awesome at low levels. I'm also a big fan of dwarves. Reduced movement stops being a problem with any sort of armor. Charisma penalty is no worse than that of the half orc. Intelligence is average, and you get some bonuses with stone and metal which are kind of neat. The +1 attack against goblinoids can come into play very frequently at low levels; the +4 dodge against giants is fantastic later on. Better yet: +2 racial save against all spells. If the world is filled with evil wizards, orcs and trolls, I'd say this package was hands-down the best.
X-Codes 07-15-05, 07:09 PM	That intelligence penalty half orcs get really does stand out for Fighters. IMO every fighter should have at least 13 Int, and ideally 14. -2 Int makes that real hard. Finally, if you are going with that mounted combat build, don't go Human, go Strongheart Halfling. They're just like normal halflings but have a bonus feat instead of +1 all saves. Then you can take your pony/riding dog anywhere your party goes.
Corigan 07-15-05, 07:45 PM	Wow, thanks for all the feedback, I wasn't expecting such a complete and fully answered reply. As to what my intentions are for the character after 1st level I guess I'd like to keep my options open. I don't think I will be going up against a "killer DM" as such but I was intrigued by creating a character that had such a good combination of abilities that they could effectively breeze though a battle without even breaking a sweat. You know, crush your enemies, here the lamentations of the women. . . err, no, wait, thats a different character concept altogether.