Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fabian Le'Trou 03-02-04, 02:34 PM	Okie dokie, I really wasn't sure where to stick this, but here goes. I'm soon to start a campain over the internet, and I'm building a rogue. We're starting at first level, and I'm not really sure which feat to take. I'm trying to make him a rapier-fighting charisma-type rogue, he's elven. Any ideas?
Krelios 03-02-04, 02:38 PM	Weapon Finesse
Fabian Le'Trou 03-02-04, 02:41 PM	Yeah, that'd be good because his STR won't be all that high, but the thing is, he's not gonna have much HP. Therefore, I'm hoping to use his CHA to talk him out of\avoid fights for a while. But still WF?
diaglo 03-02-04, 02:46 PM	try here: http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=340 or http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=339
Dragon Rider 03-02-04, 04:13 PM	Dodge is always good, an extra boost to ur Armor Class wouldn't hurt, with a CHR rogue, you may want to consider a level or two in sorcerer (thats one of my favorite combinations:mage: or maybe duelist prestige class)
Fabian Le'Trou 03-02-04, 04:39 PM	I was thinkin' a level or two of fighter. But sorcerer might be cool. Anyway, where could I find a list of nifty prestige classes? I don't know anything about the duelist, but it sounds spiffy. I don't have any core books. I've been thinking about buying some books, like, specialty books, for reading, because I like reading about this stuff. Like Song and Silence, and stuff like that. Nobody's mentioned Toughness, is it one of those vestegial feats? Oh, and diaglo, did you mean post a topic there? Or search it? I searched it, didn't see much, but I didn't look real hard.
Nick Soapdish 03-02-04, 04:58 PM	Sorcerer and fighter are both tough choices because neither of them, (nor rogue) are a favored class for elves. So you'd be risking an experience point penalty. Toughness isn't really that great of a feat. It's worthwhile at 1st level and maybe at second, but it begins to fade around then. (Unless you have a spectacularly bad constitution or roll poorly). Weapon Finesse is good, but it requires a +1 BAB, something that you won't have at 1st level if you're a rogue. I'd probably go with Dodge or Improved Initiative. Improved Initiative is nice because it gives you more sneak attacks (because you'll win initiative more often and catch more foes flat-footed). Plus, it helps you run away. Your opponents typically won't be able to make an attack of opportunity while they're flat-footed so if you're stuck in melee, you might be able to make a single attack and run off.
Fabian Le'Trou 03-02-04, 05:06 PM	Originally posted by Nick Soapdish Sorcerer and fighter are both tough choices because neither of them, (nor rogue) are a favored class for elves. So you'd be risking an experience point penalty. Toughness isn't really that great of a feat. It's worthwhile at 1st level and maybe at second, but it begins to fade around then. (Unless you have a spectacularly bad constitution or roll poorly). Weapon Finesse is good, but it requires a +1 BAB, something that you won't have at 1st level if you're a rogue. I'd probably go with Dodge or Improved Initiative. Improved Initiative is nice because it gives you more sneak attacks (because you'll win initiative more often and catch more foes flat-footed). Plus, it helps you run away. Your opponents typically won't be able to make an attack of opportunity while they're flat-footed so if you're stuck in melee, you might be able to make a single attack and run off. So many choices! Thanks for pointing out those classes, I probably won't multiclass at all. I'm really leaning towards Dodge. Especially because it allows you access to lossa other goodies later on. Always a plus. Maybe even a +1. ;)
Edymnion 03-02-04, 05:08 PM	Originally posted by Krelios Weapon Finesse He can't, Finesse takes BAB +1, which a lvl 1 Rogue doesn't get. I'd say Improved Init, personally. The reason? Flatfooted. At the start of combat, all combatants are Flat-Footed until their first action. As a Rogue, you get sneak attacks whenever the opponent is denied their dex bonus to AC, like when they're flatfooted. As in, if your Rogue goes before the badguys in combat, its a free sneak attack. To go first, you want a high init, aka you want Improved Init.
Fabian Le'Trou 03-02-04, 05:23 PM	Originally posted by Edymnion He can't, Finesse takes BAB +1, which a lvl 1 Rogue doesn't get. I'd say Improved Init, personally. The reason? Flatfooted. At the start of combat, all combatants are Flat-Footed until their first action. As a Rogue, you get sneak attacks whenever the opponent is denied their dex bonus to AC, like when they're flatfooted. As in, if your Rogue goes before the badguys in combat, its a free sneak attack. To go first, you want a high init, aka you want Improved Init. Whoa, I just read, Improved Init gives a +4 to Init! I thought it was like 1 or 2. That definately sways my choice. Thanks so much guys for your help!
Edymnion 03-02-04, 06:37 PM	Originally posted by Fabian Le'Trou Whoa, I just read, Improved Init gives a +4 to Init! I thought it was like 1 or 2. Yeah, ain't it sweet? :D
spasheridan 03-02-04, 06:49 PM	CHA based guy eh?? Check out some of those +2 / +2 skill feats, I'm thinking something with a bluff bonus might be helpfull. I know it isn't sexy for combat but the game does reward specilization. Combat wise think about the point blank shot, rapid shot, and precise shot archer tree. Very usefull for a rogue and since yer an elf you gain the prof with the bow for free. If you're going first you can take that sneak attack shot with yer bow and stay away from the enemy tanks up front. Sniping while hidden works. Finally, I really dig the arcane trickster PrC. Consider that if you want to go more than straight rogue in the future. If you're going to stay rogue then the Shadowdancer PrC is also very cool.
Edymnion 03-02-04, 07:08 PM	Originally posted by spasheridan Combat wise think about the point blank shot, rapid shot, and precise shot archer tree. Very usefull for a rogue and since yer an elf you gain the prof with the bow for free. If you're going first you can take that sneak attack shot with yer bow and stay away from the enemy tanks up front. Sniping while hidden works. Yeah, but generally, ranged weapons like the bow are something to be used by a Rogue, not specialized in. Yes, you can get sneak attacks with ranged weapons, within 30'. A good archer should NEVER be within 30' of his target, not within 60' if he can help it. An archer close enough for an enemy to engage in melee is a dead archer. At most, a light crossbow for sniping with, but focus on your melee abilities more, because thats how you're going to be getting most of your sneak attacks. Close enough to sneak attack with a bow is a bad thing. Go for Two Weapon Fighting with something like a pair of Weapon Focused Shortswords and get a flanking buddy.
Fabian Le'Trou 03-02-04, 07:16 PM	Originally posted by spasheridan CHA based guy eh?? Check out some of those +2 / +2 skill feats, I'm thinking something with a bluff bonus might be helpfull. I know it isn't sexy for combat but the game does reward specilization. What does +2 / +2 mean? I've heard terms like that before, and I've always wondered.
Geethree 03-02-04, 07:31 PM	I reccomend Improved Initiative as well, basically for the reasons Edymnion listed. Going first in combat is always a big plus, especially for Rogues.
Bluebrush 03-02-04, 08:02 PM	Originally posted by Fabian Le'Trou What does +2 / +2 mean? I've heard terms like that before, and I've always wondered. Possibly you might be thinking of ye olde days of D&D. I think back then +2/+2 could mean +2 to hit and +2 to damage. I think. But in this case, he means feats which give you +2 to two skills. Examples include Alertness (Spot/Listen) Acrobatic (Jump/Tumble) and Athletic (Swim/Climb). As for your character: What kind of campaign are you going to play? If you're going to face a lot of humanoid opponents (IE: City based/bandit killing) then take advantage of your high charisma and look into Feinting. Basically you use your bluff skill to distract opponents and deny them their AC bonuses on your next attack, so you can sneak attack. If you're playing a more traditional dungeon hack or wilderness based game, goingup against animals, feinting won't be as effective. You're playing an elf, right? Put a few ranks into search. It'll help you spot secret doors. You'll also be able to use a longbow, which is handy, but as Edymnion said, you'll want to avoid combat. Oh, and don't forget tumble. Tumble can let you avoid attacks of oppourtunity when moving past people.
Fabian Le'Trou 03-02-04, 08:11 PM	I'm not really sure what kind of campain it'll be. Never thought to ask. I kinda think it's gonna be more city based, but I'm not sure, that could just be me speculating, I tend to imagine things how I want them.;) Is "feinting" a technique, or a feat? Sorry for all the n00bish questions, but you guys are really helping. Also, what sort of items should I start with\will my DM let me start with(roughly)?
PhaedrusXY 03-02-04, 08:23 PM	Two weapon fighting is a great feat tree for a rogue, if you plan on meleeing alot and don't mind staying in the fray. If you're worried about having low hit points and getting pounded if you stick around for a full attack, the Spring Attack feat tree is for you. A level of Shadowdancer is a great multiclass option if you go with Spring Attack, because the two prereqs for it are required to enter Shadowdancer. Hide in Plain Sight (which you get from 1 level of Shadowdancer) is an incredible ability, and it particularly is good at the higher levels of the game when Invisibility becomes less and less useful due to everyone and their half-ogre brother having a way to see through it.
Nick Soapdish 03-03-04, 04:37 PM	Feinting is a technique. You make a Bluff check as a standard action and if you succeed (the opponent's check is modified by their BAB and Sense Motive bonus), they lose their dexterity for your next attack (so you get sneak attack damage). If you have the Improved Feinting feat (which has the Combat Expertise feat as a pre-requisite and thus requires a 13 Intelligence), you can feint as a move equivalent action. I still favor going after Dodge or Improved Initiative. The 2/2 feats are nice, but you should have lots of skill points anyway and the bonus that they grant usually gets insignificant in comparison to your ranks and stat bonus. And Two Weapon Fighting requires you to be in front line combat for at least a full round to get your full attack. With light armor and a d6, that's a good way to get chopped up. Dodge is nice on its own and Spring Attack is a great feat, but Mobility isn't terribly important with a good tumble score. (It gives you a bonus to your AC from movement based AoO, but tumbling can negate that AoO entirely. I've put in some house rules in my campaign that help it out some, but that's not going affect you at all.) And Improved Initiative is good. The only drawback is that by taking it, you'll be getting Spring Attack later. You should probably plan out your feats in at least a general sense. As an elven rogue, you'll only get 7 and those feat chains are going to stretch for a lot of levels. Even if you take Dodge as your first and go straight after Spring Attack, you can't get it until 6th. And if you try and slip Improved Initiative or Weapon Finesse in there, it could be 12th level.
pawsplay 03-03-04, 05:54 PM	Rogue 4/Wiz 1/Rogue +6/Bladesinger 6/Duelist 3 1 Dodge 3 Weapon Focus (rapier) 6 Combat Casting 9 Combat Expertise 12 Weapon Finesse 15 Mobility 18 Improved Feint Bluff and Diplomacy are Class Skills for Rogue, so you can max them out at 14 ranks before enterting Bladesinger. Both will languish a bit while in Bladesigner, but Duelist will allow you to pump Bluff up to make maximum use of Improved Feint. Your spell list should include: true strike, charm person, touch of idiocy, alter self, and eagle's splendor.
Fabian Le'Trou 03-03-04, 06:27 PM	Could I replace that Wizard level for a level of Sorcerer? Because he's CHA based. I'm still leaning towards Improved Init, that first sneak attack might help bunches. What's a bladesinger? I don't have books, so I don't know all these nifty little things. Again, thanks for keeping this topic going.
snb1131 03-03-04, 06:33 PM	Even though the class as a whole is not terribly exciting, checking out the Arcane Duelist PrC on the Wizards site might be nice for you...at 2nd level, you may add your CHA to AC - especially since you say you're CHA-based, that might work well for you.
eudas 03-03-04, 06:35 PM	Originally posted by Edymnion He can't, Finesse takes BAB +1, which a lvl 1 Rogue doesn't get. I'd say Improved Init, personally. The reason? Flatfooted. At the start of combat, all combatants are Flat-Footed until their first action. As a Rogue, you get sneak attacks whenever the opponent is denied their dex bonus to AC, like when they're flatfooted. As in, if your Rogue goes before the badguys in combat, its a free sneak attack. To go first, you want a high init, aka you want Improved Init. +4 dex mod +4 imp init this doesn't help if you are like my party's rogue, and roll something on the order of a '2', and the fighter (+1 dex mod) rolls a '18'. :P very rarely does the guy who takes imp init get to go first -- it's like a curse. statistically, it should be one way, but practically, it's another. eudas
pawsplay 03-03-04, 06:40 PM	Could I replace that Wizard level for a level of Sorcerer? Because he's CHA based. Not with an elf, you'd take an XP penalty. Half-elf, sure. But Wizards can add spells to their book, Sorcerers have a limited selection. Wizard would be preferred, just don't get any delusions of being a powerful caster. Bladesinger gives a modest bonus to AC and the ability to cast in armor, as well as half spell progression. A more Cha-focused character would look like Rogue 6/Sorcerer 6/Rogue +4/Arcane Trickster 4. A really Cha-focused one would be Rogue 6/Bard 7/Arcane Trickter 7. What do you want to do with your Cha? Cast? Talk to people? Milk one ability score for all it's worth?
Raging Halfling 03-03-04, 09:11 PM	Originally posted by eudas +4 dex mod +4 imp init this doesn't help if you are like my party's rogue, and roll something on the order of a '2', and the fighter (+1 dex mod) rolls a '18'. :P very rarely does the guy who takes imp init get to go first -- it's like a curse. statistically, it should be one way, but practically, it's another. eudas Wow, you sound bitter! I have the opposite problem. If I take Improved Initiative, I usually start rolling really high (17-20) on initiative, which would have gone first regardless. Of course, the downside of this is that that's usually my only good roll the entire combat. :(
Fabian Le'Trou 03-04-04, 10:30 AM	Originally posted by pawsplay A more Cha-focused character would look like Rogue 6/Sorcerer 6/Rogue +4/Arcane Trickster 4. A really Cha-focused one would be Rogue 6/Bard 7/Arcane Trickter 7. What do you want to do with your Cha? Cast? Talk to people? Milk one ability score for all it's worth? Alrighty, you're gonna have to help me out here: Rogue 6/Sorcerer 6/Rogue +4/Arcane Trickster 4 That means to take 6 levels of Rogue, 6 of Sorcerer, then 4 more of Rogue, then 4 of Arcane Trickster; in that order. Right? I was thinking of using my CHA to talk to people. At the risk of being cliched, "sweet talk" them. Unless the campain starts going in a directing where I won't be able to do that as much, I might change my mind and head towards something more useful.
eudas 03-04-04, 11:10 AM	Originally posted by Raging Halfling Wow, you sound bitter! I have the opposite problem. If I take Improved Initiative, I usually start rolling really high (17-20) on initiative, which would have gone first regardless. Of course, the downside of this is that that's usually my only good roll the entire combat. :( Not really bitter on my own behalf; i'm not the rogue. It's more like i'm bitter on the rogue's behalf -- he's the one who can't roll an init higher than 10. :) Me, I'm the fighter who rolls init all over the place. My dice are random dice (as they're supposed to be). But, as for Imp Init, people say it's a really good feat, and I can understand how they would say that, but in practice I'm just not seeing it. =) It's got the kiss of death on it -- take Imp Init and you'll always go last. =) eudas
Eyeless Blond 03-04-04, 01:00 PM	Originally posted by Fabian Le'Trou I was thinking of using my CHA to talk to people. At the risk of being cliched, "sweet talk" them. Unless the campain starts going in a directing where I won't be able to do that as much, I might change my mind and head towards something more useful. You know, if you're going to do something like this, I'd suggest a solid, straightclassed Bard. Bards get all Cha-based skills as class skills, have a Cha-based spell list, have an absoltely beautiful Fascinate/Suggestion ability that's useful throughout the entire life of the class, and in general are just based around being sweet-talkers. Plus they're fairly self-sufficient and adaptable; they're only real problem since the 3.5 revision is their low hit die, which rogues share, and low spell DCs, which has various workarounds. If you're interested, check out other Bard optimization threads on the board like this one (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=140225), which is good for writing up an music-focused (which every bard should be, at least a little), or archery-focused bard, and has good notions for skill placement and spell selection. One thing I particularly like about the Bard class is that he starts the game with proficiency in the Whip. Now, by itself the whip is a particularly crappy weapon (unless you allow whip-daggers from Sword and Fist), but combined with Improved Trip and/or Disarm it's a great tactical weapon, particularly if you get used to standing right behind the party tank (or behind and to the left, etc) and taking everyone else's weapons and feet out from under them. :) A whip-focused character should definately look at the Lasher PrC (prestige class) out fo Sword and Fist (did this get updated yet?), but I wouldn't take it beyond level 2-4, as the abilities kinda suck after that. For Cha-based bards (and rogues for that matter) of course the Cha skills are important. But one thing Bards have over all other classes is the ability to pick up languages for nearly nothing. Being able to Fascinate/Suggest to just about anything is a great thing, and cheap for a Bard with a decent Int. A small warning about charisma and Cha-skills, only because you seem to be new. Many times DMs perfer to roleplay skills like Diplomacy. In these cases your RL (real-life) charisma is often more important than your character's. If you're very shy or more of a natural follower than a leader I'd seriously consider not playing a Cha-based character, especially if you're new with this system or role-playing in general.
Fabian Le'Trou 03-04-04, 01:33 PM	Holy crap, dude, thanks! You would be my new best friend. I'd actually been thinking about playing a Bard for a while. But...this sneak attack thing is just too tempting... I also heard Bards were hard to play. How would a Bard/Rogue or Rogue/Bard multiclass turn out? ...It really wouldn't hurt to save up some money and at least buy a PHB...
Eyeless Blond 03-05-04, 12:32 AM	Originally posted by Fabian Le'Trou I'd actually been thinking about playing a Bard for a while. But...this sneak attack thing is just too tempting... I also heard Bards were hard to play. Yeah, bards are kinda hard to play, insofar as any Cha-based character is. Charisma, unfortunately, has the fewest mechanical uses in the game, and many DMs make it even more useless by role-playing all Cha-based skills, which mean that the character's Charisma is often less important than the player's. Bard characters have the additional problem of being generalists. Being naturally second-best at everything, players are tempted to spread themselves thin, and overextend themselves. If you're not careful with your build you may end up a wattered-down, useless dillitante. 3.5 went a long way to helping the bard come into his own as a useful character, particularly with the musical abilities. The generalist problem isn't as bad anymore because of this, but since music abilities are now based on bard level it's not as good to multiclass now. How would a Bard/Rogue or Rogue/Bard multiclass turn out? This might be a really good idea, actually. If you do go this route, though, don't be an equal multiclass, or you'll screw yourself in later levels. This means you'll have to be either half-elf, human (recommended), gnome or halfling to stay away from multiclass penalties. Either take 2-4 levels of rogue and the rest bard or consider Arcane Trickster (and try to persuade your DM to let you have a d6 hit die and 3/4 BAB or bardic music progression for taking a suboptimal caster class.) Now that I think about it, two levels of Rogue for Trapfinding and Evasion would be a really good idea, especially as you have no trapfinders in your group yet. Take rogue first for the extra akill points, but be sure to buy one or two Perform skills so you're not too far behind when you take your first Bard level (probably for your second character level.) ...It really wouldn't hurt to save up some money and at least buy a PHB... Well, you can always get the SRD here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/20040121a) if you can't afford the three core books, although I really recommend buying at least the PH. Even if you do buy, the SRD is easier to search for text, and IMO better for looking up spells.
Timespike 03-05-04, 12:42 AM	Track down the 3.5 rogue thread. It's loaded with good ideas and builds. I posted some stuff in a big long post at the end that won't necessarily help your feat-selections, but might help you be more rogue-ly. It's gone over well with the rest of the board. Also; watch james bond movies. Bond's a high-level charisma-based rogue if I ever saw one. ;)