Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Elderich 03-12-05, 12:28 PM	Greetings. I think it is a fitting fate that this old rules lawyer should post first in build optimization. I have not played in years. Not since 2e, or perhaps a bit of 3. I got hit up to play a 3.5 Eberron campaign. And the date was moved up to tomorrow? Bah. I have to learn 3.5 and what my char can do today. I don’t really have to, but I really hate going in worrying “How does this work?” and not “How will I role play this?”, so I got work to do. I understand it is likely this will be a long-term group, so I would like to get the build right at the start. After reading some of Eberron, I fell in love with artificers. So my question is… What is an optimal Artificer build given the following conditions? C1) Start at third level. C2) World is strictly Eberron. C3) Bonus points a) Bonus points if the build uses one other book. Please explicitly reference non core books. ( I don’t know what they have, so I will need a source to use till I can get it) b) Double bonus if only core books. This begs the question “what do you call core?” The answer is I wont know till Sunday. Can anyone point me to a “What is core in Eberron?” discussion. I don’t want to argue with the DM (who I am sure does not know), but I would like to have some ideas to give the group to help us decide. Note: Starting at third level I would prefer to have at least one level in artificer, but I am open to compelling reasons not to. I have been reading many of the posts here, specifically "The Stafficer" and the multi paged monster that is "Optimized Artificer", and many, many others. I am not intimately familiar with the post 2ed rules system, but I get the gist of most of it. If you choose to reply please explain in detail the REASONS for your suggestions, that I might learn the details and the game mechanic. Feel free, but not encumbered to reference any other reading material and the SRD’s, if that makes sense. I will read all referenced material I can get access to. I have a few other specific questions I need to post, but I want this posted ASAP, and I don’t know where they go. I thank you in advance for your assistance. I have read the FAQ's and posting guides, but if i missed something, I apologize in advance.
Tempest Stormwind 03-12-05, 12:37 PM	Core in Eberron is likely Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, Monster Manual, and Eberron Campaign Setting. It's hard to not make a good artificer if you communicate with your team during downtime. Just ask your local wizard and cleric what he's likely to use in his spells, and remember you can use nearly all of them as well on wands or scrolls with the right infusions (Metamagic Item or Weapon Augmentation in particular) or class features (Metamagic Spell Trigger). Feats that let you make items harder, better, faster and stronger than before (any of the Artisan feats in the Eberron book, for instance) are sound choices if you can't think of any particular 20th level goals. The builds in Optimized Artificer and Stafficer are both solid at earlier levels, though they don't look like it to a layman since so much of it is clever use of the artificer infusions at low levels instead of feat selection. I'm hardly an artificer specialist, though (I focus mostly on psionics and melee). I hope someone better with the class can provide more than these general tips. By the way, what are the "bonus points" you refer to?
Elderich 03-12-05, 01:27 PM	Bonus points referred to rating the build suggestion. Feeble attempt at humor. Many of thoes builds refer to "marshall" and "paragon". Are they "core" and where might I find them?
Interested2 03-12-05, 01:30 PM	Marshal is in the Miniature's Handbook, and racial paragons are in Unearthed Arcana, both of which are made by WoTC. :cool:
Tempest Stormwind 03-12-05, 01:40 PM	Bonus points referred to rating the build suggestion. Feeble attempt at humor. Many of thoes builds refer to "marshall" and "paragon". Are they "core" and where might I find them? Marshal is a base class that has slightly above average combat prowess... but has a command aura. If you've played Diablo II, think the paladin there and you've got a good estimate. Marshal lets you do weird things with your Charisma score, amongst other things. I avoid using it, myself, mostly because the MiniHB is poorly balanced (though probably not outright broken). Paragon levels are an interesting blend of race and class, a bit of a throwback to Basic D&D. Each paragon class is a 3-level class (sometimes more for powerful races) that's only open to a single race, and exemplifies the strengths of that race. Humans with levels in Human Paragon are delightfully adaptable, halflings grow luckier and even more of a crack shot, gnomes get slightly more magical, half-orcs get Rage without being barbarians, and so on. They're a great idea, but not every DM will allow them -- especially since Unearthed Arcana is a book that's explicitly about "variant rules" (like Player's Option books, but more so).
Caelic 03-12-05, 01:43 PM	Uhm. Well, heck--I'm not sure what advice I can give that I haven't already given in the OA thread. The Artificer is a beautiful thing. It needs nothing else to make it go. It can benefit from other classes, sure--a one-level dip in Marshal, obviously, is nice, and the Artificer can afford to give up as many as four levels with minimal impact--but it doesn't need those bells and whistles. The holy troika for an Artificer is Quicken Spell, Persistent Spell, and Twin Spell. If you can only use one other book, make it Complete Arcane. The Artificer loses a LOT of utility without Persistent and Twin.
Interested2 03-12-05, 06:32 PM	Well, the basic concept of the Stafficer has been around for a while. The key is maxing your UMD check. As was pointed out in the Stafficer thread, you can get really, really dang high with a Marshal 1/Artificer 19. The only real point of the Stafficer is that he gets the +116 without any prep, no infusions used or anything. He just always has it on. It's not terribly hard to max a skill check as an artificer, especially when you've got access to 4th level infusions. Were I you, I would use Marshal 1/Artificer 19. Here's how it'd work. At high level play: Make a staff of whatever you want. Make a bunch of +30 competance bonus items to UMD. Two work just fine for anything you've ever gonna need until you get into major epic levels. Now, use one of your fourth level infusions (I forget what it's called) to turn one of the items into a circumstance bonus. There ya go. +60 to your UMD check right there, and you can zap pretty much anything. Note that you can do this with *any* skill, so if you want to go a skill maxing route, artificer is tough to beat. At low level play: Wands. Lots and lots of wands with metamagics applied. Twinned Repeated Maximized Scorching Ray is a good thing. :D Another good investment is Scepters. Check out Lost Empires of Faerun for info on those, but suffice it to say they're kinda a cross between staves and wands, that can store up to 7th level spells.
Elderich 03-13-05, 03:38 AM	I want to thank you all for responding. Sorry for the delay in getting back, i had an event that pulled me away. Questions about the feats. I really don’t mind playing reduced functionality at the early levels, for better results in the mid to higher levels, as mid to higher levels are usually tougher and longer. Feats being very rare I can see a feat that gives a +2 or ability once a day making sense. Heir of Siberys was an exception, but they nerfed that. What would you recommend for feats? Why would I take skill focus for +3? I can make items that will give me that at level 3, and more? The Marshall’s Minor Aura - Motivate charisma seems pretty good, but wont most my skill points from my first level be wasted as a marshal? I guess skill in weapons will come in here. I am thinking the artesian feats are just not worth it. Saving some gold in a feat, or some XP, which retain essence makes equal to gold does not make sense, especially with many juicy feats that make gold getting easier. And +30 items?? They are 600KGP each, right? On action points. It has been my experience the fit will hit the shan when you play D&D. And action points are made to save the day. Is Heroic spirit worth as much as I think it is? Caelic; Did you ever write a artificer guide? If you let me bug the hell out of you I, I could ghost write it. I sure as heck would understand artificers more. Looking in CA I see Persistent Spell requires Extend Spell, which I found in PHB. What order should I take the “troika”? Take extended first, but that was to be Nymph’s Kiss, from exalted, which is another book. Try to get it BoED too? Or take Extended at first and whatever is next at 4th? Interested2; your stafficer gets fully +53 of your 116 from the +30 item, and +23 item familiar. Assuming a big bonus item is in the future, it seems Item familiar is the bomb feat for artificers? I do not have access to unearthed, but can you take item familiar more than once? Would multiple item familiars stack? With full understanding that the stafficer was a min/max for Caster Level, what would you change for a more well rounded character? Got a ton more questions, but need sleep.
Squirrelloid 03-13-05, 03:52 AM	an item of +30 skill costs 90k gold. (DMG ad hoc item creation rules. Bonus^2*100 gp). You'll want craft wondrous item or forge ring (wherever you intend to put it) to make these yourself, as you probably won't find any. Artificer needs to make a lot of his own gear. Saving xp and gold doing so is *good*, it vastly increases the amount of gear he has to use, which means more metamagicked wands/scepters for you. I'd reconsider those feats. You can only have one item familiar. Check with your DM about whether you can have one at all. (Human Paragon i consider ok as a DM, item familiar i consider cheese). Hope that covers some of the bases.
Elderich 03-13-05, 04:19 AM	I see. I really must sleep, but Or make it 180K, and no slot, assuming you got alot of stuff. If you save 25%, you can have 25% more stuff. But do you really need, or can you even use 25% more stuff? 90K will take 3 months to make, 180 twice as long. How much does one make adventuring for 3 or 6 months? Why is HP ok, and Item cheese? I want to understand how to tell the differance?
Tempest Stormwind 03-13-05, 04:45 AM	I see. I really must sleep, but Or make it 180K, and no slot, assuming you got alot of stuff. If you save 25%, you can have 25% more stuff. But do you really need, or can you even use 25% more stuff? 90K will take 3 months to make, 180 twice as long. How much does one make adventuring for 3 or 6 months? Why is HP ok, and Item cheese? I want to understand how to tell the differance? The kicker here is that those feats also decrease your construction time. And a good benchmark guide for arcane characters is to assume two days off per day adventuring. Human Paragon's fine with some DMs because it in and of itself isn't especially powerful. It gets three levels -- one lets it choose any skill as a class skill, another gives it a bonus feat, and the third gives you +2 to any ability score. Levels 2 and 3 also advance any existing spellcasting class. Nothing terribly flashy. Item Familiar, on the other hand, is painfully flashy. Take a peek at it in Unearthed Arcana sometime. Sometimes, it's the little things nobody notices -- like eggshell grenades (dust) offering no save vs Blindness, or Halfling Outrider stacking with Druid AND Paladin for mount prowess, or the Improvised Weapon Damage table progressing linearly with weight (while weight carrying capacity increases exponentially with strength). These things lead to some terrifying results -- blinding the tarrasque on a touch attack, the Supermount (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=382372), and the legendary Hulking Hurler (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=142565) in this case.
Squirrelloid 03-13-05, 04:48 AM	I see. I really must sleep, but Or make it 180K, and no slot, assuming you got alot of stuff. If you save 25%, you can have 25% more stuff. But do you really need, or can you even use 25% more stuff? 90K will take 3 months to make, 180 twice as long. How much does one make adventuring for 3 or 6 months? Why is HP ok, and Item cheese? I want to understand how to tell the differance? Well, but most of the rings suck, and you can always take the Extra Rings feat anyway, so you might as well have them take up slots. Consider this: You have an ability that lets you use metamagic on spells cast from wands, but it burns additional charges from the wands. Now, with some appropriate feat selection (say, double wand wielder plus metamagic as talked about earlier), you could use a wand of enervation in each hand twice each round, once twinned and repeated (1+3+3 charges i believe, +1 for offhand), and once quickened, twinned, and repeated (1+3+3+4, +1 offhand). Thats a total 18 charges from the onhand wand, and 20 from the offhand wand, in 1 round. Of course, its also 16d4 negative levels bestowed in one round. (And empowering all of them burns another 4 charges total on each wand, but also multiplies that neg level bestowfest by 1.5). As wands have 50 charges, you burn out wands in this manner rather quickly. So you'll need to make a lot of them. On cheese - Most of this is my opinion on what i would tend to allow in a game. Others are free to disagree with me, as it is only opinion. Human paragon is good, but not exceedingly better than anything else you could be doing. You don't take it as not a spellcaster most of the time (or something which gets to count the spellcaster progression as something else), and you lose a level of progression taking it. Its probably better than most of the core classes, but not by enough to hugely unbalance it. Especially since casting progression tends to be everything to spellcasters. Item Familiar lets you get a 10% experience boost, and you can store skill points in the item. (When you select your skills at a new level, you can designate some to be stored in the item - you still use them, but they're tied to the item now). For every 3 skill points in the item, you can add a +1 bonus to any skill you want. This becomes amazing when you realize there are some skills that are good at arbitrarily high values, and this gives you a way to avoid rank caps, etc... So for an artificer, you store all your skills except UMD in the Item (you need to be a little paranoid), and add all the bonus to UMD. Diplomacy is another good candidate for other builds, as is (sigh) sleight of hand. Now, if you lose the Item Familiar, you lose all these skill points you invested in it, but any character who invests heavily in an item familiar becomes almost untouchable this way. Any DM who purposefully had the item stolen or destroyed would be seen as specifically out to screw over that character (which it would do), and it would appear blatantly unfair.
Interested2 03-13-05, 07:46 AM	Well, for a more well-rounded character, Marshal 1/Artificer 19 works great. There really isn't a need to get caster level *that* high - once you get cl 70 or so, you're golden (against gods, too). Keeping that in mind, a Magic-Blooded Human/Rokugun Ninja 8/Exemplar 10/Bayushi Deceiver 2 is awesome for this, as you'll *always* go first, and it's UMD check is certainly high enough. Build posted below. As for item familiar, I noted in the post that you should get an Eye of Horus and use that as your item familiar, as it can never be sundered, lost, or stolen. You can't take item familiar more than once. One of the keys to an insane ability check is custom items with +30 bonus. If you look at the Stafficer thread, it's pointed out that with that fourth level infusion, you can pretty much get whatever UMD check you want temporarily. Race: Human Scorpion Clan Trait: Aggressive (+2 init) Level Class Feat(s) Ability 1 Marshal 1 Blooded, Skill Knowledge:Use Magic Device 2 Rokugun Ninja 1 3 Rokugun Ninja 2 Skill Focus: Use Magic Device 4 Rokugun Ninja 3 Int +1 5 Rokugun Ninja 4 6 Rokugun Ninja 5 Item Familiar 7 Rokugun Ninja 6 8 Rokugun Ninja 7 Int +1 9 Rokugun Ninja 8 Leadership 10 Rokugun Ninja 9 11 Exemplar 1 12 Exemplar 2 Way of the Scorpion Int +1 13 Exemplar 3 14 Exemplar 4 15 Exemplar 5 Speed of the Kami 16 Exemplar 6 Int +1 17 Exemplar 7 18 Exemplar 8 Quick Reconnoiter 19 Bayushi Deceiver 1 20 Bayushi Deceiver 2 Int +1 EQUIPMENT +1 Eager Dagger (+2 init) 18000 Headband of Int +6 36000 Cloak of Charisma +6 36000 Gloves of Dexterity +6 36000 Sign, Constant (always roll a 20) 2000 Tome of Clear Thought +5 137500 Manual of Quickness of Action +4 110000 Tome of Leadership and Influence +4 110000 Belt of Giant Strength +6 36000 Kapaur's Skittish Nerves (+5), constant 2000 Total: 523500 Left: 236500 Result: Init is always: 94 32+Dex+Cha+4*Int With 28 point buy 18 Int, 8 Wis, 14 Dex, 14 Cha, 8 Str, 8 Con With 32 point buy 18 Int, 8 Wis, 14 Dex, 14 Cha, 10 Str, 8 Con
Elderich 03-13-05, 10:26 AM	Again thanks a lot guys and gals. Given I am third, I am thinking first two feats Extend and persistant. Comments? Can you recharge staff/wands? I know this is a silly question, but how much will an adventurer make in a month? I seem to remember that it was always cheaper to pay someone to make stuff and keep adventuring, then make it yourself, just dont die. Perhaps not? Can you weild two staffs? Would you want to? On skill points; I assume an item can grant a bonus to a skill even if you dont have the skill? If so it seems Nymphs kiss ( and the +1 skill point) is not as powerfull. If you can scratch up an item at will, it seems skill points dont matter as much? Interested2; I did not see "Eye of Horus" in the stafficer build. And what is that Code box thingy? Output from a character mamagement tool?
Interested2 03-13-05, 10:58 AM	It's there, listed under equipment. The code box is just CODE tags from the board, I just copied the spreadsheet on that character from my computer.
Caelic 03-13-05, 11:01 AM	Here's the breakdown I recommend for a good, general-purpose Artificer. He's not as focused as some of the truly grotesque Artificer builds--but he can do everything, given a little prep time, he can do it better than most specialist characters, and he can do it without being obviously, grotesquely broken. I'm keeping this to core plus Complete Arcane, straight level 20 Artificer build. (After all, how cheesy can a build possibly be when you're not even taking a prestige class? ;) ) If you can get MiniHB, slip in a level of Marshal at level 2--NOT level 1. Putting it in at level 1 doesn't really gain you any advantages, and it puts a serious crimp in your UMD score as you try to make up those four levels. You may also want to seriously consider SF (UMD) if you're not using Marshal. I know it leaves a bad taste, but at low levels, you want every little bit you can get to get that Spell Storing Item engine running. I haven't finished the Handbook yet--teaching takes up a lot of time--but I'll try to finish it up ASAP. Human Artificer 20 1. Scribe Scroll, Extend Spell, Legendary Artisan 2. Brew Potion 3. Craft Wondrous Item, Persistent Spell 4. Craft Homonculus, Twin Spell 5. Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Retain Essence 6. Metamagic Spell Trigger, Quicken Spell 7. Craft Wand 8. Wand Mastery 9. Craft Rod, Extraodrinary Artisan 10. 11. Metamagic Spell Completion From here, there are a number of ways you can go--season to taste. I like Craft Contingent Spell a lot for an Artificer, personally, and would give serious thought to taking it at level 12. The key to using the Artificer in a real-world campaign environment, believe it or not, is moderation. If you show up with a fully-tweaked Blastificer and unload on the enemy for 144d6 damage at 9th level, chances are the DM will nix the character. If, however, you pull your punches so that you're only doing a LOT of damage, not an OBSCENE amount, there shouldn't be a problem. Whereas a character who does one thing astronomically well is frequently noticed, the character who does everything, but only does it very well frequently isn't.
Elderich 03-13-05, 11:35 AM	Again thanks a bunch guys. Leaving very soon, and it will be a lot more fun becaused you guys helped. Interested2; I cant see it. I searched the whole thread for "eye", and for horus. Caelic; The moderation point is well made. If i can help with the handbook let me know, it will get me more intimate withartificer quicker. I dont understand your 1st level feats. Dont you get the artificer 5+1 for human? Why do you list 3? I understand the Legendary choice, but is extend and persistant just as valid, or did i miss something? Is a level of rogue worth it? why or why not? What tools you recomend for character generation and bonus calculation?
Interested2 03-13-05, 12:40 PM	Oh, I'm sorry! I must've put that in my +155 diplomacy thread instead of stafficer. Check out crystalkeep.com/d20, the item pdf's for the listing, it's in there somewhere. From a Dragon, apparently.
Tempest Stormwind 03-13-05, 01:04 PM	Human Artificer 20 1. Scribe Scroll, Extend Spell, Legendary Artisan 2. Brew Potion 3. Craft Wondrous Item, Persistent Spell 4. Craft Homonculus, Twin Spell 5. Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Retain Essence 6. Metamagic Spell Trigger, Quicken Spell 7. Craft Wand 8. Wand Mastery 9. Craft Rod, Extraodrinary Artisan 10. 11. Metamagic Spell Completion From here, there are a number of ways you can go--season to taste. I like Craft Contingent Spell a lot for an Artificer, personally, and would give serious thought to taking it at level 12. Behold, friends, the quintessential artificer. Not heavily tweaked out, but neither does it need to be. If you want to play an artificer, that looks very, very sound. Elderich: four of those five aren't technically "feats." They're special features for the artificer. Caelic merely listed feats you'll get, either for free, with bonus feats, or through character advancement. You can afford to wait until 3rd level for Persistent. The saved XP means less of a dip in your craft reserve which means more items without penalty for your character beyond money. Persistent just means you're paying a lot more for a single superstrong item -- and besides, it takes a few special abilities before you can use that to its best advantage. Tools? You mean, like, online calculators for everything? Well... I use a form character sheet every now and again (from here (http://www.darksideprod.com/shadowkeep)) for that purpose. It's my second-favorite sheet design (after the most recent Mad Irishman (http://www.mad-irishman.net) one) -- after all, that one's designed for true PnP play. I prefer doing all the math in my head.
Elderich 03-13-05, 07:33 PM	Ok just got back. Persistant takes a 6th level slot. I guess it was silly to suggest to take it early, as, if i got this right, you cant use it till you get a 6th, at 14. Is that right?
Tempest Stormwind 03-13-05, 07:38 PM	Ok just got back. Persistant takes a 6th level slot. I guess it was silly to suggest to take it early, as, if i got this right, you cant use it till you get a 6th, at 14. Is that right? Nope. You don't apply metamagics to your own infusions -- you apply them to your wands with the Metamagic Item infusion or Metamagic Spell Trigger feature. Example: Make a wand of Divine Power. Metamagic Item it with Persistent. Use it. Booyah. It's because of this "we can afford to burn a charge or three extra" mentality that you desperately want a way to make your crafting more efficient -- hence the GP and timesaving feats. The XP one is great at low levels, but not the best IMHO, strictly because of your craft reserve and Retain Essence. By the way, does your party have a psion? Psionic effects can't be duplicated by an artificer as written, and Psychic Reformation is an artificer's wet dream.