2 Arcane Casters to choose [Archive] - Wizards Community

2 Arcane Casters to choose [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Cappo
09-13-04, 09:28 AM I'm currently finalizing a new concept. It will be a Wizard Type and has to be a Sun Elf, Stats before racial Mods will be 10/14/14/18/10/8. We're playing 3.5 FR, all FR, 3.0 & 3.5 Splat and Corebooks allowed (but no mix of settings).
After all those threads regarding Caster Killing, I`ve worked on making a very survivable Type.
The key will be good saves (especially Fort + Will), decents HDs and good Skills (especially Hide, Move Silently, Spot and Listen)

I have two Builds, each uses the UA Wizard Variant that gets Fighter Feats instead of Scribe Scroll and the usual Wizard Bonus Feat:

Build 1)
Flaws will be Weak Will and Pathetic Charisma
1) Wizard 1 (Iron Will, Nymph's Kiss, Alertness and Dodge)
2) Wizard 2
3) Wizard 3 (Extend Spell)
4) Wizard 4
5) Wizard 5 (Mobility)
6) Harper Mage 1 (Skill Knowledge Hide + Move Silently, Skill Focus Arcane Knowledge)
7) Wizard 6
8) Harper Mage 2 (Skill Focus Spellcraft)
9) Harper Mage 3 (Spring Attack)
10) Harper Mage 4 (Eschew Materials)
11) Dragonslayer 1
12) Spellsword 1 (Combat Casting)
13 - 20) Serpent Slayer 1 - 8

That leaves 2 Feats open for Level 15 + 18. I was thinking about Silent Spell and Quicken Spell, Alternatives could be Improved Ini, Craft Wondrous Item or Combat Expertise.

Caster Level 20, Final BAB 11, Base Saves 13/5/19, HPs (4 + 9D4 + 9D8 + 1D10 = Avg 72,5)

Build 2)
Flaws will be Weak Will and Pathetic Charisma
1) Elf Paragon 1 (Iron Will, Nymph's Kiss, Skill Knowledge Hide + Move Silently)
2) Wizard 1 (Dodge)
3) Wizard 2 (Combat Casting)
4) Wizard 3
5) Elf Paragon 2 (Weapon Focus Longsword)
6) Wizard 4 (Mobility)
7) Wizard 5 (Combat Expertise)
8) Wizard 6
9) Elf Paragon 3 (Spring Attack)
10) Blade Singer 1
11) Dragonslayer 1
12) Spellsword 1
13 - 20) Serpent Slayer 1 - 8

That leaves 3 Feats open for Level 12, 15 + 18. I was thinking about Craft Wondrous Item, Silent Spell and Quicken Spell, Alternative could be Improved Ini.

Caster Level 19, Final BAB 12, Base Saves 13/9/18, HPs (8 + 6D4 + 12D8 + 1D10 = Avg 82,5)

Which would you take? I know, loosing a Caster Level is always a bad thing, but aren't the slightly better Saves and Hit Points and greater Feat and Skill Flexibility worth the Deal?
Funny Slaughter
09-13-04, 10:05 AM i dont know the serpent slayer PrC but the base looks better in the first build.
i am also no fan of the bladesinger, especially for a caster there is no gain and you have to invest all these feats...

gs
Funny
RadicalTaoist
09-13-04, 12:41 PM Fraid I can't help much as I don't know what the hell the Serpent Slayer does. It's from that new Yuan Ti FR book right?
Cappo
09-13-04, 01:14 PM Serpent Slayer is from Serpent Kingdoms. It's main goodies are D8 HD, good Fort and Will and full Spellcasting progression. The downside are it's hefty Feat requirements.
That's the interesting thing about build 2, the requirements overlap quite much with Bladesinger, Weapon Focus is free from Elf Paragon, the only thing you have to invest is Combat Expertise, an interesting Feat anyway, especially if you plan on going melee.
So I'm taking Bladesinger only as one Level Dip for BAB, Saves, one decent HD and another Caster Level. I would't even think about taking the whole 10 Levels or starting it, if I didn't have most of the Feats anyway.
Norad
09-13-04, 02:45 PM That leaves 2 Feats open for Level 15 + 18. I was thinking about Silent Spell and Quicken Spell, Alternatives could be Improved Ini, Craft Wondrous Item or Combat Expertise.

First of all, build 1, don't lose the caster level just to get a slight bump in saves, not worth it imo. Find a spell to cast that gets you around the weak saves, more than likely you can either find one that will give you a big bonus to your saves anyways that will stack with a resistance item, or it will just make you flat out immune and you won't have to save anyways.

Second of all, for 15 and 18 I would take Quicken Spell and Silent Spell, then at 21st level you can take Automatic Silent Spell (0-3), basically if you want to build a very safe Wizard getting Auto Quicken/Silent/Still (0-9) by 30th is an awesome route to go. However, this means you would need to rework your build a little since you don't have a PrC at 10th by 20th.

Personally, I'm a big fan of the Elemental Savant (Earth gives you Earth Glide among other things), but Mage of the Arcane Order is a very good general purpose PrC and should give a good Epic Feat progression.
Cappo
09-13-04, 03:17 PM First of all, build 1, don't lose the caster level just to get a slight bump in saves, not worth it imo. Find a spell to cast that gets you around the weak saves, more than likely you can either find one that will give you a big bonus to your saves anyways that will stack with a resistance item, or it will just make you flat out immune and you won't have to save anyways.
That has been my first thought, too. But the goal is, to reach some safety, without relying on Magic. We all know the sick things that could be done with spells, especially Shapechange when it comes to immunities and so on. But I'd like to stay workable even in an Antimagic Field and to have some chances to escape without relying on Magic or even better, to completely avoid being catched with my pants down, hence Listen and Spot.

Second of all, for 15 and 18 I would take Quicken Spell and Silent Spell, then at 21st level you can take Automatic Silent Spell (0-3), basically if you want to build a very safe Wizard getting Auto Quicken/Silent/Still (0-9) by 30th is an awesome route to go. However, this means you would need to rework your build a little since you don't have a PrC at 10th by 20th.
I'm not sure, whether that is worth the investment. Imho it's better in these Levels to rely on Improved Spell Capacity and Epic Spells to build your defenses.

Personally, I'm a big fan of the Elemental Savant (Earth gives you Earth Glide among other things), but Mage of the Arcane Order is a very good general purpose PrC and should give a good Epic Feat progression.
Elemental Savant is a nice PrC, but not really what I'm looking for, you still have the poor Fort and crappy HDs. Elemental Immunities are absolutely great, but you have to invest a Caster Level, too.

Any other thoughts?
Cappo
09-16-04, 05:52 AM :bump: just to hear a few more opinions. At the moment it looks like Build 1.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Cappo 09-13-04, 09:28 AM	I'm currently finalizing a new concept. It will be a Wizard Type and has to be a Sun Elf, Stats before racial Mods will be 10/14/14/18/10/8. We're playing 3.5 FR, all FR, 3.0 & 3.5 Splat and Corebooks allowed (but no mix of settings). After all those threads regarding Caster Killing, I`ve worked on making a very survivable Type. The key will be good saves (especially Fort + Will), decents HDs and good Skills (especially Hide, Move Silently, Spot and Listen) I have two Builds, each uses the UA Wizard Variant that gets Fighter Feats instead of Scribe Scroll and the usual Wizard Bonus Feat: Build 1) Flaws will be Weak Will and Pathetic Charisma 1) Wizard 1 (Iron Will, Nymph's Kiss, Alertness and Dodge) 2) Wizard 2 3) Wizard 3 (Extend Spell) 4) Wizard 4 5) Wizard 5 (Mobility) 6) Harper Mage 1 (Skill Knowledge Hide + Move Silently, Skill Focus Arcane Knowledge) 7) Wizard 6 8) Harper Mage 2 (Skill Focus Spellcraft) 9) Harper Mage 3 (Spring Attack) 10) Harper Mage 4 (Eschew Materials) 11) Dragonslayer 1 12) Spellsword 1 (Combat Casting) 13 - 20) Serpent Slayer 1 - 8 That leaves 2 Feats open for Level 15 + 18. I was thinking about Silent Spell and Quicken Spell, Alternatives could be Improved Ini, Craft Wondrous Item or Combat Expertise. Caster Level 20, Final BAB 11, Base Saves 13/5/19, HPs (4 + 9D4 + 9D8 + 1D10 = Avg 72,5) Build 2) Flaws will be Weak Will and Pathetic Charisma 1) Elf Paragon 1 (Iron Will, Nymph's Kiss, Skill Knowledge Hide + Move Silently) 2) Wizard 1 (Dodge) 3) Wizard 2 (Combat Casting) 4) Wizard 3 5) Elf Paragon 2 (Weapon Focus Longsword) 6) Wizard 4 (Mobility) 7) Wizard 5 (Combat Expertise) 8) Wizard 6 9) Elf Paragon 3 (Spring Attack) 10) Blade Singer 1 11) Dragonslayer 1 12) Spellsword 1 13 - 20) Serpent Slayer 1 - 8 That leaves 3 Feats open for Level 12, 15 + 18. I was thinking about Craft Wondrous Item, Silent Spell and Quicken Spell, Alternative could be Improved Ini. Caster Level 19, Final BAB 12, Base Saves 13/9/18, HPs (8 + 6D4 + 12D8 + 1D10 = Avg 82,5) Which would you take? I know, loosing a Caster Level is always a bad thing, but aren't the slightly better Saves and Hit Points and greater Feat and Skill Flexibility worth the Deal?
Funny Slaughter 09-13-04, 10:05 AM	i dont know the serpent slayer PrC but the base looks better in the first build. i am also no fan of the bladesinger, especially for a caster there is no gain and you have to invest all these feats... gs Funny
RadicalTaoist 09-13-04, 12:41 PM	Fraid I can't help much as I don't know what the hell the Serpent Slayer does. It's from that new Yuan Ti FR book right?
Cappo 09-13-04, 01:14 PM	Serpent Slayer is from Serpent Kingdoms. It's main goodies are D8 HD, good Fort and Will and full Spellcasting progression. The downside are it's hefty Feat requirements. That's the interesting thing about build 2, the requirements overlap quite much with Bladesinger, Weapon Focus is free from Elf Paragon, the only thing you have to invest is Combat Expertise, an interesting Feat anyway, especially if you plan on going melee. So I'm taking Bladesinger only as one Level Dip for BAB, Saves, one decent HD and another Caster Level. I would't even think about taking the whole 10 Levels or starting it, if I didn't have most of the Feats anyway.
Norad 09-13-04, 02:45 PM	That leaves 2 Feats open for Level 15 + 18. I was thinking about Silent Spell and Quicken Spell, Alternatives could be Improved Ini, Craft Wondrous Item or Combat Expertise. First of all, build 1, don't lose the caster level just to get a slight bump in saves, not worth it imo. Find a spell to cast that gets you around the weak saves, more than likely you can either find one that will give you a big bonus to your saves anyways that will stack with a resistance item, or it will just make you flat out immune and you won't have to save anyways. Second of all, for 15 and 18 I would take Quicken Spell and Silent Spell, then at 21st level you can take Automatic Silent Spell (0-3), basically if you want to build a very safe Wizard getting Auto Quicken/Silent/Still (0-9) by 30th is an awesome route to go. However, this means you would need to rework your build a little since you don't have a PrC at 10th by 20th. Personally, I'm a big fan of the Elemental Savant (Earth gives you Earth Glide among other things), but Mage of the Arcane Order is a very good general purpose PrC and should give a good Epic Feat progression.
Cappo 09-13-04, 03:17 PM	First of all, build 1, don't lose the caster level just to get a slight bump in saves, not worth it imo. Find a spell to cast that gets you around the weak saves, more than likely you can either find one that will give you a big bonus to your saves anyways that will stack with a resistance item, or it will just make you flat out immune and you won't have to save anyways. That has been my first thought, too. But the goal is, to reach some safety, without relying on Magic. We all know the sick things that could be done with spells, especially Shapechange when it comes to immunities and so on. But I'd like to stay workable even in an Antimagic Field and to have some chances to escape without relying on Magic or even better, to completely avoid being catched with my pants down, hence Listen and Spot. Second of all, for 15 and 18 I would take Quicken Spell and Silent Spell, then at 21st level you can take Automatic Silent Spell (0-3), basically if you want to build a very safe Wizard getting Auto Quicken/Silent/Still (0-9) by 30th is an awesome route to go. However, this means you would need to rework your build a little since you don't have a PrC at 10th by 20th. I'm not sure, whether that is worth the investment. Imho it's better in these Levels to rely on Improved Spell Capacity and Epic Spells to build your defenses. Personally, I'm a big fan of the Elemental Savant (Earth gives you Earth Glide among other things), but Mage of the Arcane Order is a very good general purpose PrC and should give a good Epic Feat progression. Elemental Savant is a nice PrC, but not really what I'm looking for, you still have the poor Fort and crappy HDs. Elemental Immunities are absolutely great, but you have to invest a Caster Level, too. Any other thoughts?
Cappo 09-16-04, 05:52 AM	:bump: just to hear a few more opinions. At the moment it looks like Build 1.