Post/Author/DateTime	Post
olothfaern 08-17-04, 12:33 AM	consider this partial build (or something with a similarly strange str score) race = orc we use the 4d6 drop one method, very possible 18 start 1 Barbarian Fast Movement, Rage Quick Draw 2 Sorceror Summon Familiar 3 Fighter Bomus Feat Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush 4 Fighter Bonus Feat Power Lunge 5 Barbarian Uncanny Dodge 6 Dragon Disciple Natural Armor (+1) Awesome Blow 7 Dragon Disciple [+2 Str] now you're enlarged & raging then you charge/power attack/power lunge/awesom blow sombody, most likely hitting them (your str should be at least 30) they take... weapon damage + 15 (from str) + 10 (from power lunge) + N*2 (from power attack) which forces a reflex save, DC = weapon damage + 25 through 35 assuming they fail, and you use a free action to drop regular weapon, and quick draw to grab reach weapon do you get an AoO due to them moving out of your threatened area? I know if you bull rush someone, they do provoke AoO, and one of the pre-req's for Awesome Blow is Imp. Bull Rush quotes for ease of use... From SRD: BULL RUSH You can make a bull rush as a standard action (an attack) or as part of a charge (see Charge, below). When you make a bull rush, you attempt to push an opponent straight back instead of damaging him. You can only bull rush an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller. Initiating a Bull Rush: First, you move into the defender’s space. Doing this provokes an attack of opportunity from each opponent that threatens you, including the defender. (If you have the Improved Bull Rush feat, you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender.) Any attack of opportunity made by anyone other than the defender against you during a bull rush has a 25% chance of accidentally targeting the defender instead, and any attack of opportunity by anyone other than you against the defender likewise has a 25% chance of accidentally targeting you. (When someone makes an attack of opportunity, make the attack roll and then roll to see whether the attack went astray.) Second, you and the defender make opposed Strength checks. You each add a +4 bonus for each size category you are larger than Medium or a –4 penalty for each size category you are smaller than Medium. You get a +2 bonus if you are charging. The defender gets a +4 bonus if he has more than two legs or is otherwise exceptionally stable. Bull Rush Results: If you beat the defender’s Strength check result, you push him back 5 feet. If you wish to move with the defender, you can push him back an additional 5 feet for each 5 points by which your check result is greater than the defender’s check result. You can’t, however, exceed your normal movement limit. (Note: The defender provokes attacks of opportunity if he is moved. So do you, if you move with him. The two of you do not provoke attacks of opportunity from each other, however.) If you fail to beat the defender’s Strength check result, you move 5 feet straight back to where you were before you moved into his space. If that space is occupied, you fall prone in that space. and AWESOME BLOW [GENERAL, FIGHTER] Prerequisites: Str 25, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, size Large or larger. Benefit: As a standard action, the creature may choose to subtract 4 from its melee attack roll and deliver an awesome blow. If the creature hits a corporeal opponent smaller than itself with an awesome blow, its opponent must succeed on a Reflex save (DC = damage dealt) or be knocked flying 10 feet in a direction of the attacking creature’s choice and fall prone. The attacking creature can only push the opponent in a straight line, and the opponent can’t move closer to the attacking creature than the square it started in. If an obstacle prevents the completion of the opponent’s move, the opponent and the obstacle each take 1d6 points of damage, and the opponent stops in the space adjacent to the obstacle.
Caelic 08-17-04, 12:47 AM	When you bull rush someone, they don't provoke attacks of opportunity from you--it's covered in the section you quoted. If someone else happens to be standing nearby, they'd get an AoO, but you don't.
olothfaern 08-17-04, 12:52 AM	... is why I quoted the whole section, because in context, it seems to refer to you moving with the person, so it would make sense that both of you moving together would not provoke AoO from each other, but if you're standing still and launch that person, now they are moving without you... but thank you for your reply, any other takes on this? btw, I haven't decided one way or the other...
Darkwin6 08-18-04, 08:08 PM	Which book is Awesome Blow from?
cheesegrater 08-18-04, 08:34 PM	Is anyone else imagining two PCs standing 10 feet apart, playing tennis with the BBEG?
Rocco 08-18-04, 08:50 PM	For awesome blow you need to be size large or larger (prerequisite), so you should not qualify for it in the first place. Unless dragon disciple gets large size in 3.0 with the first level. In 3.5 he doesn't get large size. Also, it is listed as a monster feat, so I doubt many DM's will make it available for their players!? The theoretical question remains, haven't read through it :D
*R* 08-18-04, 09:04 PM	Pretty sure you get the AoO anyway, and you don't even have to switch weapons. Awesome Blow (SRD): "As a standard action, the creature may choose to subtract 4 from its melee attack roll and deliver an awesome blow. If the creature hits a corporeal opponent smaller than itself with an awesome blow, its opponent must succeed on a Reflex save (DC = damage dealt) or be knocked flying 10 feet in a direction of the attacking creature’s choice and fall prone." Provoking an Attack of Opportunity (SRD): "Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes an attack of opportunity from the threatening opponent. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot-step and the withdraw action." * Assuming you threaten the square that your opponent initially occupied, a successful Awesome Blow will cause your opponent to move out of a square you threaten. * Your opponent is not making a 5-foot step or withdrawing, and Awesome Blow does not state that this movement is an exception to the rule regarding provoking an Attack of Opportunity through movement. * You take your Attack of Opportunity before the action that provokes the Attack of Opportunity resolves, i.e., before your opponent leaves the square you threaten, and therefore, you do not need longer reach. This is assuming you qualify for Awesome Blow in the first place though, as Rocco mentioned. EDIT: Note that there are many other ways to get extra attacks on a charge, such as the various ways of getting a full attack after a charge, including spells, psionics, and PrCs. If the AoO off of Awesome Blow isn't errata'd, you can also abuse the hell out of AoOs using a combination of Combat Reflexes, Sidestep, Hold the Line, and a reach weapon. Take a look at this (http://boards.wizards.com/showthread.php?threadid=163005) thread for ideas :D
olothfaern 08-19-04, 04:46 PM	...for the replies, btw, one of the reasons you' could be enlarged is because you cast it on your self as a sorceror prior to raging... ...and when you're not large, than you don't qualify for the feat although if you're a Goliath, the fun starts all over again
malaegoth 08-19-04, 05:12 PM	you dont need to qualify for a feat to take it, you just cant benefit from it until you qualify.
bluebudda 08-19-04, 05:23 PM	malaegoth Is this a fact? If so where does it state this? I know that if you have a feat and loose one of the preq's (such getting enlarged when having the clever wrestler feat) you loose the benefits until you meet all the preq's. Thanks, Vincent
*R* 08-19-04, 05:50 PM	malaegoth wrote: you dont need to qualify for a feat to take it, you just cant benefit from it until you qualify. From the 3.5 PHB, Feats section: "Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite." Emphasis mine.
malaegoth 08-19-04, 06:40 PM	well, apparently im wrong, I was merely going off having seen other people say that. either way, thats the way I run it in my game.
Blade2718 08-19-04, 06:42 PM	You can't select it unless you qualify for it. However, if something temporarily allows you to gain the requirements, then you can select it, but not benefit from it until you qualify for it.
Rocco 08-19-04, 06:53 PM	Originally posted by Blade2718 You can't select it unless you qualify for it. However, if something temporarily allows you to gain the requirements, then you can select it, but not benefit from it until you qualify for it. So you mean you just have to be under an enlargement spell when gaining the level - then you are allowed to take that feat? And use it when you are enlarged the next time? :D Okay, that's a little bit farfetched. But I don't even know if we would allow gauntlets of strength or similar to qualify for feats in our group. I think we simply look after the natural ability score.
Blade2718 08-19-04, 06:57 PM	That's why they're the Rules As Written.
*R* 08-19-04, 08:29 PM	Rocco wrote: But I don't even know if we would allow gauntlets of strength or similar to qualify for feats in our group. I think we simply look after the natural ability score. Considering you get bonus spell slots from magically enhanced casting stats (as long as you slept the full 8 hours with the enhanced stat), I don't think it's a stretch. Examples include inherent bonuses granted from Tomes, magic items, spells. I mean, you can lose use of a feat by losing a qualification because of a spell/item... That half-ogre can't use Awesome Blow if shrunk. Anyway, RAW, you just have to have the prerequisite when you select the feat. Nothing there about having it intrinsically, or permanently, or for a fortnight before you qualify. Edit: For what it's worth, the Sage ruling (hah!) backs this up.
Rocco 08-19-04, 08:55 PM	Okay, you have a point. And fortunately, some others in my group know the rules a lot better than I do. :D So you could just pass on these gauntlets of strength to another char in your group so that he qualifies for a feat. After he has taken the feat, he gives the gauntlets back to its rightful owner. The gain of this might be that he can take another feat next time, which has this particular feat as a prerequisite. Or just to meet the prerequisites of a prestige class with that particular feat. Although he can't use it, that shouldn't matter for meeting prerequisites (other feat/prc) as he has the feat in question. Now I know where my idea with the natural stats came from. I just couldn't imagine that they left so much room for abuse... While the enlargement spell before level up seems very odd, some groups might even play this way (the variant pointed out here seems to be a tad more reasonable - but only a tad). Scary! :behold: But what is scary on these boards though? ;)
*R* 08-19-04, 09:38 PM	Rocco wrote: So you could just pass on these gauntlets of strength to another char in your group so that he qualifies for a feat. After he has taken the feat, he gives the gauntlets back to its rightful owner. The gain of this might be that he can take another feat next time, which has this particular feat as a prerequisite. Ahah! Not so fast! You can't do that except in a very few cases :D For example: Dodge - Prerequisite: Dex 13 Mobility - Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge Spring Attack - Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, base attack bonus +4 (emphasis mine) So you'd need to swap the gauntlets back to get the next feat in the chain, or to use any of them, which kind of defeats the purpose. And adds a little internal balance, imo.
dirkformica 08-19-04, 11:28 PM	So do these stat rulings mean that if you were to cast a spell that reduced a Trip or Disarm monkey's Int below the 13 required for those feats, they would be unable to use those feats until the stat was restored? This would kind of make the classes like Monk or Wolf Totem Barbarian who get feats for free even if they don't qualify for them even more powerful since you couldn't remove that feat via stat reduction. And what about Two Weapon Fighting? Lower that two weapon wielding Dervish's Dex below the 15 required and they suddenly get monstrous penalties to hit. Wouldn't this all make combat record keeping even more difficult? There are quite often intricate feat chains that are all inter-Dependant and you could possibly destroy them with a few reduced stats. And how would this all affect Prestige Classes with feat requirements?! You suddenly lose your class because you no longer qualify for Dodge?! That's an extremely unlikely scenario, I know, but still it seems to follow from the earlier rulings on temporary stat increases or other temporarily altered attributes allowing you to take feats. Wouldn't this also allow anyone with access to the Enlarge spell to take War Hulk and Hulking Hurler? This all seems pretty sketchy to me. But I'll invoke the old Dennis Miller rule: "That's just my opinion, I might be wrong."
Blade2718 08-20-04, 12:08 AM	Yes, you lose access to the PrC's abilities, but you retain HD, BAB, and saves. Looks like you're catching on to the intricacies of optimization. Too bad you can't take the other pill now...
olothfaern 08-20-04, 12:12 AM	...using stat damaging and draining item/spells/abilities to nullify your opponents combat abilities, we do that all the time (there was a case of a Kyton chain fighter [you'd have to have seen it to believe it]). We HAVE to be creative to survive in our campaigns, I was 2nd level, and had to fend off something that had at least 3d6 sneak (at least CR5 by my estimate) by myself until help arrived; yes, obscuring mist saved the day. A lion tried to kill me today, it moved and attacked, my DM said it was a pounce, to which I asked "did it charge?", he said no, thus no pounce, and a still living me... ok way off track now; anyway... Yes, you lose the feats you aren't qualified to use (excellent combat tactic [especially if you're out classed]) as far as losing PrC's, I've seen it done both ways (if you do lose a PrC, we play that you just lose the special abilities, NOT: BAB, Saves, caster level...) You lose your bonus spells if you get your requisite ability lowered, and they don't come back if you get that ability restored, you have to rememorize them (I think that's core, but that could just be us [just finished gaming, too lazy for further book use]) and I'll end by mentioning a variant we use, that does crazy things to a combat... we track our levels as a list noting what we got at every level, and if you suffer a negative level, you use your character as if you were the previous level, we do this because the -1 to all your rolls wasn't grusome enough for us, but it works against the NPC's too (I love dropping sorcerors to odd levels) to all else feel free to expand, correct, and clarify (yeah it's off topic, but just think of your happy place)
isbavatar 08-20-04, 04:32 AM	Your Awesome Blow AoO question sounds like a case of combo juggling in Tekken. Not to ruin your fun, but as someone who has used a reoccurring half-dragon ogre villain with that very feat, I never would have imagined giving him an AoO on the victim of his Awesome Blow attack. We're talking about an attack of such awesome ferocity that it launches the target backwards; I don't think you could convince me that the individual's backswing is going to come quick enough to connect with the victim hurtling out of their threatened square... otherwise, yeah, you're playing Tekken. I'm intrigued with the idea of taking a feat with the preq of size Large by substituting the Enlarge Person spell. However, if I were the DM, I believe I would rule that, to get the feat, you'd have to be effected by a permanent Enlarge Person spell. BUT, if it were to be dispelled, you'd only lose the feat until you used Enlarge Person again (if only temporary).
Rocco 08-20-04, 07:57 AM	There we have a nice discussion going on. About *R*'s comment: Sure, again you have a point. I thought of these feat chains as well some time after posting and came to the conclusion that you still would qualify for feats which are prerequisites for prcs. Still a nice gain for some. Dirk made a point as well, but I think as far as prcs are concerned, you wouldn't lose access to them simply by reduced ability scores. That is because, as I tried to say before, IMO you may be unable to use a feat, but none the less you still have that feat. I think we have to make a distinction between losing feats (I don't think that is possible) and being unable to use them temporarily.
*R* 08-20-04, 12:13 PM	Rocco: As it was ruled, you don't lose the levels of Prestige Class, per se. A Rogue 10/Shadowdancer 10 is still a Rogue 10/Shadowdancer 10 if his Dex has been lowered below 13 (and thereby is unable to access Dodge and Mobility). What he does lose, is access to all the class abilities of the PrC for which the temporarily-disabled feats (or other qualities) are prerequisites; the class abilities are treated as if they, too, were feats, the prerequisites of which are identical to qualifying for the PrC - in this case, Move Silently 8 ranks, Hide 10 ranks, Perform (dance) 5 ranks, and the feats Combat Reflexes, Dodge, and Mobility. He retains his Shadowdancer Hit Dice, BAB, saves, and proficiencies. It makes sense, depending on the situation... if you need to know how to bob and weave and maneuver deftly in combat (Dodge, Mobility) in order to master the power to leap from shadow to shadow unseen, and it takes a certain degree of basic agility and reflexes to pull off the bobbing and weaving in the first place, then I could see how being cursed with clumsiness (a loss of Dex) would prevent a Shadowdancer from doing his sneaky-nimble-disappearing-and-reappearing thing. Of course, logic can only be stretched so far when you're dealing with a guy who can animate his shadow, disappear while you're looking at him, and teleport as long as there's some darkness around :D In the end, each DM has to make the final balance vs. realism vs. player enjoyment call, and Rule 0 if necessary.
Rocco 08-20-04, 01:01 PM	If it really was so, then wouldn't all prcs also lose any weapon proficiencies of the prcs etc. (makes a difference for RSoP for example). But are the class abilities/features really dependant (rule-wise) on the feats that are prerequisites of the prc in any way? The class abilities rather seem to be autonomous from any ability scores and feats. What he does lose, is access to all the class abilities of the PrC for which the temporarily-disabled feats (or other qualities) are prerequisites; the class abilities are treated as if they, too, were feats, the prerequisites of which are identical to qualifying for the PrC - in this case, Move Silently 8 ranks, Hide 10 ranks, Perform (dance) 5 ranks, and the feats Combat Reflexes, Dodge, and Mobility. Is there a rule for this? In my interpretation being temporarily disabled from using dodge for example wouldn't hurt his prc abilities because the char still has the feat/s, but may be I am just plain wrong.
*R* 08-20-04, 07:19 PM	Rocco: I was certain there was an official ruling on this very question, so I took some time to look through the official errata and FAQs... Now I'm not so sure :( I couldn't find it, but it doesn't mean I looked hard enough. I think that they retain their weapon proficiencies just like ex-Paladins and ex-Clerics keep their weapon proficiencies (even though they lose access to their other class features). Hopefully, when the search function works again, I'll be able to give you a more official answer.
journeyman777 06-17-05, 03:23 PM	Since when do your characters get bonus spells for magically enhanced stats? All of the spell stat boosting spells include the phrase "...(insert caster class here) affected by this spell do not gain any additional bonus spells for the increased (insert primary stat), but the save DCs for spells they cast while under this spell's effect do increase." The spell description itself prohibits you from gaining any bonus spells from it. Since the permanent stat boosting items are based off these same spells (as listed in the prerequisites to make them) and grant the same type of bonus, there is no reason to treat them any differently than the spells themselves. In short, tomes and wish are about the only magical ways to get bonus spells by boosting stats. And please remember, this is pencil and paper. Lv up reflects time spent training and the things learned and practiced over the course of your entire previous level. Unless you spent every waking moment for the last lvl enlarged/wearing gauntlets of ogre power/what have you than you shouldn't be able to take them into consideration when choosing your new feats.
Surreal 06-17-05, 04:24 PM	Your Awesome Blow AoO question sounds like a case of combo juggling in Tekken. Not to ruin your fun, but as someone who has used a reoccurring half-dragon ogre villain with that very feat, I never would have imagined giving him an AoO on the victim of his Awesome Blow attack. We're talking about an attack of such awesome ferocity that it launches the target backwards; I don't think you could convince me that the individual's backswing is going to come quick enough to connect with the victim hurtling out of their threatened square... otherwise, yeah, you're playing Tekken. Unless of course you could somehow swing in such a way that your opponent gets bull rushed up. If they don't provoke an AoO on their way up, surely they would as they fall back down into your threatened area. :D Make a charge with a sand wedge, then after the first hit drop your weapon and quick draw your louisville slugger :cool:
Baneslayer 06-17-05, 05:16 PM	do you get an AoO due to them moving out of your threatened area? Simply put, No.
olothfaern 06-17-05, 09:33 PM	Since when do your characters get bonus spells for magically enhanced stats? All of the spell stat boosting spells include the phrase "...(insert caster class here) affected by this spell do not gain any additional bonus spells for the increased (insert primary stat), but the save DCs for spells they cast while under this spell's effect do increase." The spell description itself prohibits you from gaining any bonus spells from it. Since the permanent stat boosting items are based off these same spells (as listed in the prerequisites to make them) and grant the same type of bonus, there is no reason to treat them any differently than the spells themselves. In short, tomes and wish are about the only magical ways to get bonus spells by boosting stats. And please remember, this is pencil and paper. Lv up reflects time spent training and the things learned and practiced over the course of your entire previous level. Unless you spent every waking moment for the last lvl enlarged/wearing gauntlets of ogre power/what have you than you shouldn't be able to take them into consideration when choosing your new feats. ...but what are you talking about?
olothfaern 06-17-05, 09:34 PM	Simply put, No. see title