+2 LA for a Wizard [Archive] - Wizards Community

+2 LA for a Wizard [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DM_Dracophile
12-25-05, 12:42 PM We have a Cat Hengeyokai Wizard in our party. DM is allowing a max of a +2 LA and we intend to use it. We're using the 3.5 adjusted Hengeyokai from Dragon Magazine and, thus, no LA.
What, in your oh-so-humble opinions, would be the best +1 or 2 LA template for a Wizard?

We're stuck with non-Eberron books, btw.
Fwib
12-25-05, 03:07 PM If you want an eberron race, then just use the MM3 - it has them all in it.

...and Races of Eberron - oddly enough, looking at the cover, it is a generic D&D book, not an eberron one :)

As far as templates go... the usual advice about LA on this board for casters is to avoid it like the plague :(
Lusden Veharo
12-25-05, 03:22 PM "No LA".
ressurrector
12-25-05, 03:43 PM I've found that a LA +1 isn't so bad, unless you're playing a sorcerer.
But generally, look primarily at your casting stat, dext, con.
Korg al Tarr
12-25-05, 03:53 PM DM is allowing a max of a +2 LA and we intend to use it.

half dragon(draconomicon) - no color
without immunity and breath w.
LA +2
+4 N. armor
+8 str 2 con 2 int 2 cha
Impeesa
12-25-05, 03:56 PM Phrenic (XPH) is pretty nice for all casters, though admittedly a wizard will gain less from it than others will.

--Impeesa--
DM_Dracophile
12-25-05, 03:59 PM Korg, you got it right. We're definitely using the LA's cuz the DM is ignoring them :D We're all starting at an (arguably) even level of power...so it works out alright.

But anyway, I thought Half-Dragon was a +3 LA?

Impeesa, Phrenic is pretty sweet. Hadn't considered that.
foxylady
12-25-05, 04:56 PM I would go for (all +2 LA):

Phrenic (XPH)
Half-Celestial (BoED)
Half-Fey (MMII?)
Saint (BoED)
Shadow (Manual of the Planes)
ressurrector
12-25-05, 05:01 PM I would go for (all +2 LA):

Phrenic (XPH)
Half-Celestial (BoED)
Half-Fey (MMII?)
Saint (BoED)
Shadow (Manual of the Planes)

I thin half-fey is MM III, since I got II, and I've never seen it.
PhoenixInferno
12-25-05, 05:04 PM White Dragonspawn (DLCS) is another awesome one, even grants a Sorcerer caster level.
WCH
12-25-05, 05:05 PM I thin half-fey is MM III, since I got II, and I've never seen it.Praise whatever deity you worship that you haven't seen it. Gawd, that picture is terrible.

It's Fiend Folio, though. Along with the sample Half-Fey Centaur. *shudders in recollection*
ressurrector
12-25-05, 05:07 PM Praise whatever deity you worship that you haven't seen it. Gawd, that picture is terrible.

It's Fiend Folio, though. Along with the sample Half-Fey Centaur. *shudders in recollection*

Are you SURE it's MM II?
seriously, I've looked all through the book multiple times, there's hardly any templates at all.
Skilgannon
12-25-05, 05:34 PM What about a psionic Githyanki? Their psionic racial abilities are useful in a pinch if you have been captured and your items have been taken away/your spellbook gets stolen.
ressurrector
12-25-05, 05:40 PM I'd suggest using half-celestial, if you don't have any issues with the alignment requirements.

Being a caster with fly speed and the ability to hover comes in handy.
Especially if you're proficient with long/short-bows.
DM_Dracophile
12-25-05, 05:52 PM All excellent suggestions.
However, the base has to be Cat Hengeyokai (so no Gith :( ) and I'm purty sure Half-Celestial (the winged one) is a +4 LA :(

Keep em coming though! Great concepts are afoot
Surreal
12-25-05, 05:52 PM Another vote for White Dragonspawn. And how would your DM account for Necropolitan?
DM_Dracophile
12-25-05, 05:55 PM Sadly, we don't have the Dragonlance Campaign Setting :weep:

As for the Necropolitan :D I can just see a Cat Hengeyokai Necropolitan.

That's one spooky kitty
ressurrector
12-25-05, 05:55 PM All excellent suggestions.
However, the base has to be Cat Hengeyokai (so no Gith :( ) and I'm purty sure Half-Celestial (the winged one) is a +4 LA :(

Keep em coming though! Great concepts are afoot

Well, if you can find anything that gives fly speed (good maneuverability or better for hover w/o the feat) then I'd take that.

Pretty much the strongest thing vs casters is melee, flight avoids melee combat and threatened areas fairly well.

in 3.0 the half celestial was +3 LA and 50% or 75% chance of wings.
Skilgannon
12-25-05, 05:57 PM doublepost
Skilgannon
12-25-05, 05:59 PM In the Book of Exalted Deeds, Half Celestial got a +2 LA on them. Other templates from there you might want to consider are Saint and Sanctified also at +2 LA though Half Celestial would probably be the most fun.
BelRex
12-25-05, 06:07 PM Saint, with Celestial Mystic PrC.
Lilt
12-25-05, 07:45 PM I'd be tempted by the +2LA variant of half dragon in the draconomicon if you're allowed it, but I also like Phrenic with wizards for a few reasons: A power point reserve (free with phrenic) lets you psionically focus yourself so you can take 15 on concentration checks.
It has awesome instant-cast defensive abilities (instant-cast a half-damage zone as someone is charging you on their turn, for example) and respectable power resistance (translates to SR by the standard rules)
It covers several bases spells-wise (like healing and teleportation) and, as psionics have no somatic components, you can use them all whilst grappled/similar.
Psi-likes scale really well. They automatically have the full manifester level of power points spent on them, and most powers increase save DC as you spend more power points on them. You effectively get lots of 9th level spells at your disposal once you reach level 17, and at level 20 the 3 mind thrusts per day that you got way back do 20d10 with a respectable save DC.

Saint or Half-Celestial are nice, but can be too goody-goody in a party-in-fighting kindof way. Seeing as LA creatures are often more strongly aspected with respect to allignment, I wouldn't be surprised if there were some non-good characters in the party so don't make something which is severely incompatible with them. Also, IDHMBWM, but IIRC the half-celestial as +2LA rule is an option for GMs if they wish to encourage celestial creatures in their games. I'd check with your DM before you tried a saint on him too, as saints don't fit in every game.
Lavis Knight
12-25-05, 07:56 PM Half Celestial? I could of sworn that had a +4 LA.
Da Dinictus
12-25-05, 07:58 PM Shadow creature template is definitely worth it, especially if you are allowed to buy off your LA via buy-off rules in Unearthed Arcana. Get some Fast Healing or another nifty ability, some nice boosts, and you're ready to go at +2 LA.
Surreal
12-25-05, 09:06 PM I like the half-vampire template too.
BelRex
12-25-05, 09:12 PM BoED has a +2 variant for the half celestial, because you only gain the abilities for a 1HD creature, and never any others unless you want more LA.
ressurrector
12-25-05, 09:14 PM BoED has a +2 variant for the half celestial, because you only gain the abilities for a 1HD creature, and never any others unless you want more LA.

Does it give you fly speed?
BelRex
12-25-05, 09:19 PM Everything for a single HD creature, so yeah..you get wings :P
Arkat
12-26-05, 10:44 AM I'd be tempted by the +2LA variant of half dragon in the draconomicon if you're allowed it,

Why would you be? There is no +2 LA variant of Half-Dragon in the Draconomicon. On page 144 of the Draconomicon in the table down in the lower right-hand corner of the page, it clearly indcates the LA of a half-dragon is +3 (like the MM says).

Maybe you're referring to the table in the lower right-hand corner on page 287 of the Draconomicon? If so, you're making a mistake. That table does not mean +2 LA. It means +2 to CR for a half-dragon. CR and LA are NOT the same.

Or, what you really meant to cite were the tables in the back of Savage Species? I refer specifically to the one on page 213. There, the table seems to imply a colorless half-dragon would indeed be a +2 LA, however it makes no sense for there to be a "colorless" half-dragon. When I say "colorless" I don't mean there can't be Tarterian, Radiant, etc. half-dragons. I mean to say it doesn't make sense for a half-dragon to not inherit its dragon parent's breath weapon (or special ability in the case of Fang dragons) and immunity (if any). See the Half-dragon entry in the Draconomicon on pgs 166 and 167.

I hope Races of the Dragon will put such speculation to rest once and for all.

..

In the Book of Exalted Deeds, Half Celestial got a +2 LA on them.

So it would seem from the example of the half-elf/half-celestial paladin on page 27 of BoED.

This example (along with the table on the same page) needs to be reconciled with the half-celestial template in the MM which clearly states the template is a +4 LA.

I've tried to figure it out but to no avail. Has anybody written to Customer Service about it yet asking for such a reconcilliation? If so, could you please share it?

Thanks.

..

BoED has a +2 variant for the half celestial, because you only gain the abilities for a 1HD creature, and never any others unless you want more LA.

Hmm...that is an interesting take on the half-celestial issue. Is that an official view from Wizards?
Lysiander
12-26-05, 03:28 PM So it would seem from the example of the half-elf/half-celestial paladin on page 27 of BoED.

This example (along with the table on the same page) needs to be reconciled with the half-celestial template in the MM which clearly states the template is a +4 LA.

I've tried to figure it out but to no avail. Has anybody written to Customer Service about it yet asking for such a reconcilliation? If so, could you please share it?

Thanks.
The simplest take on it would be to use the newest version. BoED was published after the MM, so this would give it the thumbs up.
However, the BoED is rather unclear about the issue. I originally thought it was meant to balance the LA the DM should use to figure the players levels for encounters. The whole thing is after all writen in a passage that talks about all celestial parties. In such a party the LA would not really matter, with the exception of the DMs CR calculations.

Once we brought up the Issue in our group, we figured it the BelRex did. The LA is dependant on the amount of abilities you get to use. If we remove the SLAs and Spellresistance, +2 is an acceptable LA for the Template.
Arkat
12-26-05, 03:58 PM The simplest take on it would be to use the newest version. BoED was published after the MM, so this would give it the thumbs up.

What about the Half-fiend? Since there's no newer book that lowers its LA, it stays at +4?? I don't buy your explanation at all.

Once we brought up the Issue in our group, we figured it the BelRex did. The LA is dependant on the amount of abilities you get to use. If we remove the SLAs and Spellresistance, +2 is an acceptable LA for the Template.

This is more interesting. Of course it leaves a couple of things up to interpretation. Mainly, what happens to SR as you go up in level? Does it go up too? How about Damage Reduction? Does this go up when you hit level 12?

This explanation is still a little problematic but it's the best explanation I've seen.

I did write to Customer Service earlier this afternoon asking them to reconcile the different LAs for the same template and I'll report back what they have to say should I get a response.
Lysiander
12-27-05, 07:46 AM I wouldn't put too much faith in customer service. I've seen multiple contradicting answers to the same question by different CS reps. A more reliable option would be to write to the official FAQ section I believe.

Well, the newest material beeing the right one is official policy, but your right, in this case it is questionable.

As for Spellresistance and Damage reduction, we figured they are part of the LAs scaling idea. if you take the +4 LA, you have the usual scaling. If you take a lower one, you have it scaling up the the point where your LA limits it to a certain amount of HD, based on the table of the BoED.

The BoED does list LAs lower and higher then +2 depending on the HDs of the creature/ character in question. I believe that this relates more to the HD the Templates are calculated on than to the actual HDs of the character.
For example:
A 10th level character with a +2 LA HC Template would have the SLAs and SR/ DR of a 1-2 HD creature, while a 10th level character with a +4 LA HC Template would have the SLAs and SR/ DR of a corresponding DH creature as per the table. (Dont have the book with me right now, so I have to work from memory.)

This is how my group handles it anyway. The best take, as always would be to look at your games power level and adjust the numbers acordingly. Any rule is, after all, just a guideline how to handle your game. ;)
Strange Charm
12-27-05, 12:29 PM Winged Creature is a +2 LA template from Savage Species.

It gives you a fly speed equal to your land speed + 20 ft., Dex +4, Wis +2, and a maneuverability based on your shiney new Dex score. A final Dex of 17 or better nets you perfect maneuverability.
P33KAJ3W
12-27-05, 12:51 PM Multi Headed for a caster is the only way to go.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DM_Dracophile 12-25-05, 12:42 PM	We have a Cat Hengeyokai Wizard in our party. DM is allowing a max of a +2 LA and we intend to use it. We're using the 3.5 adjusted Hengeyokai from Dragon Magazine and, thus, no LA. What, in your oh-so-humble opinions, would be the best +1 or 2 LA template for a Wizard? We're stuck with non-Eberron books, btw.
Fwib 12-25-05, 03:07 PM	If you want an eberron race, then just use the MM3 - it has them all in it. ...and Races of Eberron - oddly enough, looking at the cover, it is a generic D&D book, not an eberron one :) As far as templates go... the usual advice about LA on this board for casters is to avoid it like the plague :(
Lusden Veharo 12-25-05, 03:22 PM	"No LA".
ressurrector 12-25-05, 03:43 PM	I've found that a LA +1 isn't so bad, unless you're playing a sorcerer. But generally, look primarily at your casting stat, dext, con.
Korg al Tarr 12-25-05, 03:53 PM	DM is allowing a max of a +2 LA and we intend to use it. half dragon(draconomicon) - no color without immunity and breath w. LA +2 +4 N. armor +8 str 2 con 2 int 2 cha
Impeesa 12-25-05, 03:56 PM	Phrenic (XPH) is pretty nice for all casters, though admittedly a wizard will gain less from it than others will. --Impeesa--
DM_Dracophile 12-25-05, 03:59 PM	Korg, you got it right. We're definitely using the LA's cuz the DM is ignoring them :D We're all starting at an (arguably) even level of power...so it works out alright. But anyway, I thought Half-Dragon was a +3 LA? Impeesa, Phrenic is pretty sweet. Hadn't considered that.
foxylady 12-25-05, 04:56 PM	I would go for (all +2 LA): Phrenic (XPH) Half-Celestial (BoED) Half-Fey (MMII?) Saint (BoED) Shadow (Manual of the Planes)
ressurrector 12-25-05, 05:01 PM	I would go for (all +2 LA): Phrenic (XPH) Half-Celestial (BoED) Half-Fey (MMII?) Saint (BoED) Shadow (Manual of the Planes) I thin half-fey is MM III, since I got II, and I've never seen it.
PhoenixInferno 12-25-05, 05:04 PM	White Dragonspawn (DLCS) is another awesome one, even grants a Sorcerer caster level.
WCH 12-25-05, 05:05 PM	I thin half-fey is MM III, since I got II, and I've never seen it.Praise whatever deity you worship that you haven't seen it. Gawd, that picture is terrible. It's Fiend Folio, though. Along with the sample Half-Fey Centaur. shudders in recollection
ressurrector 12-25-05, 05:07 PM	Praise whatever deity you worship that you haven't seen it. Gawd, that picture is terrible. It's Fiend Folio, though. Along with the sample Half-Fey Centaur. shudders in recollection Are you SURE it's MM II? seriously, I've looked all through the book multiple times, there's hardly any templates at all.
Skilgannon 12-25-05, 05:34 PM	What about a psionic Githyanki? Their psionic racial abilities are useful in a pinch if you have been captured and your items have been taken away/your spellbook gets stolen.
ressurrector 12-25-05, 05:40 PM	I'd suggest using half-celestial, if you don't have any issues with the alignment requirements. Being a caster with fly speed and the ability to hover comes in handy. Especially if you're proficient with long/short-bows.
DM_Dracophile 12-25-05, 05:52 PM	All excellent suggestions. However, the base has to be Cat Hengeyokai (so no Gith :( ) and I'm purty sure Half-Celestial (the winged one) is a +4 LA :( Keep em coming though! Great concepts are afoot
Surreal 12-25-05, 05:52 PM	Another vote for White Dragonspawn. And how would your DM account for Necropolitan?
DM_Dracophile 12-25-05, 05:55 PM	Sadly, we don't have the Dragonlance Campaign Setting :weep: As for the Necropolitan :D I can just see a Cat Hengeyokai Necropolitan. That's one spooky kitty
ressurrector 12-25-05, 05:55 PM	All excellent suggestions. However, the base has to be Cat Hengeyokai (so no Gith :( ) and I'm purty sure Half-Celestial (the winged one) is a +4 LA :( Keep em coming though! Great concepts are afoot Well, if you can find anything that gives fly speed (good maneuverability or better for hover w/o the feat) then I'd take that. Pretty much the strongest thing vs casters is melee, flight avoids melee combat and threatened areas fairly well. in 3.0 the half celestial was +3 LA and 50% or 75% chance of wings.
Skilgannon 12-25-05, 05:57 PM	doublepost
Skilgannon 12-25-05, 05:59 PM	In the Book of Exalted Deeds, Half Celestial got a +2 LA on them. Other templates from there you might want to consider are Saint and Sanctified also at +2 LA though Half Celestial would probably be the most fun.
BelRex 12-25-05, 06:07 PM	Saint, with Celestial Mystic PrC.
Lilt 12-25-05, 07:45 PM	I'd be tempted by the +2LA variant of half dragon in the draconomicon if you're allowed it, but I also like Phrenic with wizards for a few reasons: A power point reserve (free with phrenic) lets you psionically focus yourself so you can take 15 on concentration checks. It has awesome instant-cast defensive abilities (instant-cast a half-damage zone as someone is charging you on their turn, for example) and respectable power resistance (translates to SR by the standard rules) It covers several bases spells-wise (like healing and teleportation) and, as psionics have no somatic components, you can use them all whilst grappled/similar. Psi-likes scale really well. They automatically have the full manifester level of power points spent on them, and most powers increase save DC as you spend more power points on them. You effectively get lots of 9th level spells at your disposal once you reach level 17, and at level 20 the 3 mind thrusts per day that you got way back do 20d10 with a respectable save DC. Saint or Half-Celestial are nice, but can be too goody-goody in a party-in-fighting kindof way. Seeing as LA creatures are often more strongly aspected with respect to allignment, I wouldn't be surprised if there were some non-good characters in the party so don't make something which is severely incompatible with them. Also, IDHMBWM, but IIRC the half-celestial as +2LA rule is an option for GMs if they wish to encourage celestial creatures in their games. I'd check with your DM before you tried a saint on him too, as saints don't fit in every game.
Lavis Knight 12-25-05, 07:56 PM	Half Celestial? I could of sworn that had a +4 LA.
Da Dinictus 12-25-05, 07:58 PM	Shadow creature template is definitely worth it, especially if you are allowed to buy off your LA via buy-off rules in Unearthed Arcana. Get some Fast Healing or another nifty ability, some nice boosts, and you're ready to go at +2 LA.
Surreal 12-25-05, 09:06 PM	I like the half-vampire template too.
BelRex 12-25-05, 09:12 PM	BoED has a +2 variant for the half celestial, because you only gain the abilities for a 1HD creature, and never any others unless you want more LA.
ressurrector 12-25-05, 09:14 PM	BoED has a +2 variant for the half celestial, because you only gain the abilities for a 1HD creature, and never any others unless you want more LA. Does it give you fly speed?
BelRex 12-25-05, 09:19 PM	Everything for a single HD creature, so yeah..you get wings :P
Arkat 12-26-05, 10:44 AM	I'd be tempted by the +2LA variant of half dragon in the draconomicon if you're allowed it, Why would you be? There is no +2 LA variant of Half-Dragon in the Draconomicon. On page 144 of the Draconomicon in the table down in the lower right-hand corner of the page, it clearly indcates the LA of a half-dragon is +3 (like the MM says). Maybe you're referring to the table in the lower right-hand corner on page 287 of the Draconomicon? If so, you're making a mistake. That table does not mean +2 LA. It means +2 to CR for a half-dragon. CR and LA are NOT the same. Or, what you really meant to cite were the tables in the back of Savage Species? I refer specifically to the one on page 213. There, the table seems to imply a colorless half-dragon would indeed be a +2 LA, however it makes no sense for there to be a "colorless" half-dragon. When I say "colorless" I don't mean there can't be Tarterian, Radiant, etc. half-dragons. I mean to say it doesn't make sense for a half-dragon to not inherit its dragon parent's breath weapon (or special ability in the case of Fang dragons) and immunity (if any). See the Half-dragon entry in the Draconomicon on pgs 166 and 167. I hope Races of the Dragon will put such speculation to rest once and for all. .. In the Book of Exalted Deeds, Half Celestial got a +2 LA on them. So it would seem from the example of the half-elf/half-celestial paladin on page 27 of BoED. This example (along with the table on the same page) needs to be reconciled with the half-celestial template in the MM which clearly states the template is a +4 LA. I've tried to figure it out but to no avail. Has anybody written to Customer Service about it yet asking for such a reconcilliation? If so, could you please share it? Thanks. .. BoED has a +2 variant for the half celestial, because you only gain the abilities for a 1HD creature, and never any others unless you want more LA. Hmm...that is an interesting take on the half-celestial issue. Is that an official view from Wizards?
Lysiander 12-26-05, 03:28 PM	So it would seem from the example of the half-elf/half-celestial paladin on page 27 of BoED. This example (along with the table on the same page) needs to be reconciled with the half-celestial template in the MM which clearly states the template is a +4 LA. I've tried to figure it out but to no avail. Has anybody written to Customer Service about it yet asking for such a reconcilliation? If so, could you please share it? Thanks. The simplest take on it would be to use the newest version. BoED was published after the MM, so this would give it the thumbs up. However, the BoED is rather unclear about the issue. I originally thought it was meant to balance the LA the DM should use to figure the players levels for encounters. The whole thing is after all writen in a passage that talks about all celestial parties. In such a party the LA would not really matter, with the exception of the DMs CR calculations. Once we brought up the Issue in our group, we figured it the BelRex did. The LA is dependant on the amount of abilities you get to use. If we remove the SLAs and Spellresistance, +2 is an acceptable LA for the Template.
Arkat 12-26-05, 03:58 PM	The simplest take on it would be to use the newest version. BoED was published after the MM, so this would give it the thumbs up. What about the Half-fiend? Since there's no newer book that lowers its LA, it stays at +4?? I don't buy your explanation at all. Once we brought up the Issue in our group, we figured it the BelRex did. The LA is dependant on the amount of abilities you get to use. If we remove the SLAs and Spellresistance, +2 is an acceptable LA for the Template. This is more interesting. Of course it leaves a couple of things up to interpretation. Mainly, what happens to SR as you go up in level? Does it go up too? How about Damage Reduction? Does this go up when you hit level 12? This explanation is still a little problematic but it's the best explanation I've seen. I did write to Customer Service earlier this afternoon asking them to reconcile the different LAs for the same template and I'll report back what they have to say should I get a response.
Lysiander 12-27-05, 07:46 AM	I wouldn't put too much faith in customer service. I've seen multiple contradicting answers to the same question by different CS reps. A more reliable option would be to write to the official FAQ section I believe. Well, the newest material beeing the right one is official policy, but your right, in this case it is questionable. As for Spellresistance and Damage reduction, we figured they are part of the LAs scaling idea. if you take the +4 LA, you have the usual scaling. If you take a lower one, you have it scaling up the the point where your LA limits it to a certain amount of HD, based on the table of the BoED. The BoED does list LAs lower and higher then +2 depending on the HDs of the creature/ character in question. I believe that this relates more to the HD the Templates are calculated on than to the actual HDs of the character. For example: A 10th level character with a +2 LA HC Template would have the SLAs and SR/ DR of a 1-2 HD creature, while a 10th level character with a +4 LA HC Template would have the SLAs and SR/ DR of a corresponding DH creature as per the table. (Dont have the book with me right now, so I have to work from memory.) This is how my group handles it anyway. The best take, as always would be to look at your games power level and adjust the numbers acordingly. Any rule is, after all, just a guideline how to handle your game. ;)
Strange Charm 12-27-05, 12:29 PM	Winged Creature is a +2 LA template from Savage Species. It gives you a fly speed equal to your land speed + 20 ft., Dex +4, Wis +2, and a maneuverability based on your shiney new Dex score. A final Dex of 17 or better nets you perfect maneuverability.
P33KAJ3W 12-27-05, 12:51 PM	Multi Headed for a caster is the only way to go.