2 Weapon Fighting or 2Hander [Archive] - Wizards Community

2 Weapon Fighting or 2Hander [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Remin
02-20-04, 10:50 AM First off a little bit of background.

I will be playing the part of a human fighter in the next AD&D adventure we play. It is a tricky one as at the moment we have no Cleric / Healer in the party ( myself a Human fighter, an Elf Rogue, an Elf Ranger and a Half Elf Wizard).

My question is, which would be best route for me to go to kill the enemy fastest, duel wielding or a big 2 handed sword ?

Any advice would be most appreciated.

Thanks
Findail
02-20-04, 11:06 AM Usually, a big 2-handed sword.

Dual-wielding works best if you have a significant number of "plusses" that apply to each hit. Strength doesn't count, because that works out the same (x1.5 for a two-handed weapon, x1 and x0.5 for dual wielding). Examples include Weapon Specialization, Favored Enemy, Sneak Attack, and magical bonuses on both weapons.

These have to be good enough to offset the fact that you're taking at least a -2 penalty to hit when dual-wielding.
q'afuu
02-20-04, 11:19 AM AD&D or D&D (IOW, 2nd Ed. or 3E)? In AD&D, dual-wielding beats two-handed hands down (excuse the extremely poor pun) in the offense department. In D&D, it's the other way around (for a fighter at least).
Remin
02-20-04, 11:34 AM Sorry should have mentioned it is AD&D 3E.

Also if it works out best to duel wielding, what are peoples thoughts on taking monkey grip and using a larger sword in my primary hand (with the -2 to attack) ?

Thanks again
Cog
02-20-04, 12:31 PM I've always thought that a 2handed weapon is better than 2 weapons in 3E. You need less feats for 2Handed weapons, and the amount of damage dealt is usually not much different.

I'm not too sure about monkey grip.
The_Fan
02-20-04, 02:32 PM Ever seen the Monty Python Fish-Slapping Dance?

I think that sums up the difference pretty well :D
diaglo
02-20-04, 02:47 PM the revision really will mess with you.;)

3ed if you don't have ambidexterity it will hurt you to go twf.

and if you want real bang take a big sword.

the 3.5 revision makes twf more feasible.

but if you take power attack really ups the damage for 2handed.
jedi237
02-20-04, 09:36 PM TWF means one more chance to roll the to hit die. Odds are better that you won't roll poorly twice. I personly like paired light weapons like short swords or hand axes because weapon focus weapon specialization improved critical greater... applies to both attacks and there is a minimum of penalties.
Eagle Prince
02-21-04, 07:44 AM One good reason in 3.5 not to dual-wield with a light weapon is you can't power attack with light weapons, so I would say the best thing to dual-wield would be bastard swords and get a sunblade asap (since it counts as both shortsword and bastard sword). Monkey Grip is better for a two-handed weapon, because with two-weapon fighting you already are taking attack roll penalties.
Neonsamurai
02-21-04, 08:52 AM (I assume 3.5 rules version of D&D for this post since you didn't post what version you use.)

Okay here a little break down on 2WF and 2HF.

Two handed fighting (2HF)
2HF gives you 1.5 STR mod on your damage. You don't need to burn feats to use it and you can utilize power attack to deal great amounts of damage versus lower AC opponents.

You can deal insane amounts of damage when using the Complete Warrior source book. Frenzied Berserker and the feats shock trooper and combat brute easily enable you to deal 150+ damage per round.

With a two handed weapon you are more resistant versus disarm attacks since you get a +4 bonus on your check for holding the weapon with both hands.

Now the down sides:
You sacrifice some defense since you can't use a shield. While this is not so important, you also sacrifice a slot for certain special abilities that your shield could carry. This can later be countered with an animated shield. Good but expensive.

You can't use a two-handed weapon in a grapple. At the first glance this doesn't seem so important but there are many monsters with insane grapple modifiers. Without a light weapon you quickly become dead meat in such an encounter so don't forget to always have a backup weapon at hand.

Furthermore be wary that your DM can always ask for a grapple check if you want to draw a weapon within a grapple. When i DM i normally don't use this tactic, but it is viable (see grapple paragraph in PHB or here (http://3.5srd.com/web/sovelior_sage_srd/Sovelior%20SRD/specialAttacks.html)) and can be extremely deadly.

Two-Weapon Fighting (2WF)
To get the most effect from 2WF you need to have some sort of extra damage other than your STR. This is important since your to-hit chance is reduced due to the -2 penalty for 2WFing and your STR mod for damage on your off-hand is halved.

Here are some sources for extra damage:

rogue sneak attack dice
swashbuckler's level 3 ability "insightful strike" (complete warrior)
elemental damage dice weapon enhancement
divine might feat (complete warrior)
any other ability that lets you use an ability modifier other than strength to add to damage
dervish's dervish dance damage bonus (complete warrior)

Basically you need to have an average bonus damage of at least +10 to be effective. Thus 3 sneak attack dice would suffice or any other combination of the above mentioned abilities.

These days i prefer a setup like Swashbuckler3 / Rogue3 / Dervish 10 or Swashbuckler3 / Fighter2 / Dervish10 / Rogue5 for my 2WF builds. It gives a nice combination of class abilities and skills. Rogue 20, Fighter2 / Rogue 18 and Ranger 2 / Rogue 18 are also all good 2WF setups.

When you follow these guidelines you will be able to deal around 60-100 damage per round possibly a lot more if you concentrate on improved critical (scimitar) and dervish.

With complete warrior you can even retain your ability to have a shield, retain its AC bonus and use 2WF ! The feat you need is improved buckler defense. With it you can use a buckler when performing off-hand attacks, though you suffer an additional -1 penalty on your attack rolls for your off-hand attacks.

Always remember that 2WFers are very vulnerable to disarm and sunder attacks. Normally they use a pair of light weapons to get the most effect from feats like improved critical and power critical. With light weapons you suffer a -4 penalty on opposed checks against sunder and disarm attempts so be wary of these attacks.

The good thing though is that you can continue your fighting style in a grapple thus bypassing grapple checks. Normally a 2WFer won't have a lot of strength since he needs to burn his best ability score on dexterity to qualify for the complete 2WF feat chain.

Conclusion
As you see 2HF is clearly the better way to go. It is easier and gains you more damage output and on top makes you more resistant to certain special attacks though you might be more vulnerable to grapple attacks.

2WF on the other hand got a lot of style and is imo the more challenging way to go for a min/maxer. As i always say, everyone can put together a power attacking frenzied berserker but making a viable 2WF build is indeed some kind of challenge.

Now make your own decision ;)
shamalamastreetman
02-21-04, 09:44 AM Let's look at the numbers shall we? Compare 2 fighters with the following in common:

Both cases STR 18
Both cases use feats from PHB 3.5 only

2WF has 1d6 damage light weapons (best for off hand penalties and same weapons means specialization applies to both hands)
2WF puts plusses in dex every 4 levels

2HF uses 2d6 damage weapon
2HF puts plusses in str every 4 levels

below we'll list the following columns (formulas in brackets): character level, prim hand # attacks, secondary hand # attacks, strength modifier, avg weapon damage, damage bonus from specialization, total damage output (sum prim hand damage + str all multiplied by # of atatcks with hand, then sum all secondary hand damage + 1/2 str mod then multiplied by # attacks in sec hand), BAB, final to-hit (BAB + str mod - penalties), avg AC to hit @ lvl, chance to hit (to-hit chance minus avg AC multiplied by 0.05), final damage throughput (total damage output times chance to hit)

1 1 1 4 3 0 12 1 3 13 50% 6
2 1 1 4 3 0 12 2 4 14 50% 6
3 1 1 4 3 0 12 3 5 15 50% 6
4 1 1 4 3 2 16 4 6 16 50% 8
5 1 1 4 3 2 16 5 7 17 50% 8
6 2 2 4 3 2 32 6 8 18 50% 16
7 2 2 4 3 2 32 7 9 19 50% 16
8 2 2 4 3 2 32 8 10 20 50% 16
9 2 2 4 3 2 32 9 11 21 50% 16
10 2 2 4 3 2 32 10 12 22 50% 16
11 3 3 4 3 2 48 11 13 23 50% 24
12 3 3 4 3 4 60 12 14 24 50% 30
13 3 3 4 3 4 60 13 15 25 50% 30
14 3 3 4 3 4 60 14 16 26 50% 30
15 3 3 4 3 4 60 15 17 27 50% 30
16 4 3 4 3 4 71 16 18 28 50% 36
17 4 3 4 3 4 71 17 19 29 50% 36
18 4 3 4 3 4 71 18 20 30 50% 36
19 4 3 4 3 4 71 19 21 31 50% 36
20 4 3 4 3 4 71 20 22 32 50% 36

Do the same for 2HF (just omit # attacks for off hand- 3rd column from above)

1 1 4 3 0 12 1 5 13 60% 7
2 1 4 3 0 12 2 6 14 60% 7
3 1 4 6 0 12 3 7 15 60% 7
4 1 4 6 2 14 4 8 16 60% 8
5 1 4 6 2 14 5 9 17 60% 8
6 2 4 6 2 28 6 10 18 60% 17
7 2 4 6 2 28 7 11 19 60% 17
8 2 5 6 2 31 8 13 20 65% 20
9 2 5 6 2 31 9 14 21 65% 20
10 2 5 6 2 31 10 15 22 65% 20
11 3 5 6 2 47 11 16 23 65% 30
12 3 5 6 4 53 12 17 24 65% 34
13 3 5 6 4 53 13 18 25 65% 34
14 3 5 6 4 53 14 19 26 65% 34
15 3 5 6 4 53 15 20 27 65% 34
16 4 6 6 4 76 16 22 28 70% 53
17 4 6 6 4 76 17 23 29 70% 53
18 4 6 6 4 76 18 24 30 70% 53
19 4 6 6 4 76 19 25 31 70% 53
20 4 6 6 4 76 20 26 32 70% 53

Conclusion? 2HF!
Bafslikia
02-21-04, 03:36 PM Also worth considering in the debate between two-handed fighting and two-weapon fighting is the sword-and board factor.

Using the shield-bash feat tree you can fight two-weapon style using a shield as your off hand weapon. Doing the same damage as most light weapons, and retaining the AC shield bonus. And the magic qualities a magic shield will bring with it later on.
I forget, can Dancing Shields be used by TWFers? I would think so, but I know it was ruled monks can't use them.

There is also the Two-Weapon Defence feat chain, you get an AC bonus from the off-hand weapon you're attacking with, but it gets very feat intensive, and you can't get any shield qualities.

Also, when using TWF, you are making more attack rolls, getting more overall chances to hit, and roll criticals or 20s. Elemental bursts, vorpals, and that tentacle-blade quality I heard about being in the FRCS Underdark book work slightly better with TWF than THF.

cheers
PhaedrusXY
02-21-04, 03:55 PM Originally posted by Remin
Sorry should have mentioned it is AD&D 3E.
There is no such edition. Drop the A.

Unless you're going to be taking rogue levels for Sneak Attack dice, adding a bunch of elemental damage enhancments to your swords, or using Divine Might to add your Charisma mod to damage (and have a very good Charisma), you're better off using a two-handed weapon.
Snow Savant
02-21-04, 04:25 PM I have a Gatling Chain Fighter build out there that emphasizes TWF Trip & Double-Hit Karmic Striking. Worth a look for its alternative mechanical emphasis on TWF fighting. It's made to make a million Trip attacks, control battlefield movement, and ensure your opponent never gets a full attack option against you (Side Step feat).

And it's highly customizable. Note: it uses the Chain Link, not the Spiked Chain. Chain Link is in OA and SavSpec books.

XO,
Snow :cloud9:
Cynosure
02-21-04, 07:46 PM I've played both a Greatsword wielder and a two-weapon fighter to a decent level. In my humble opinion, wielding two weapons is generally better than wielding on large one, but of course both have their ups and downs.

When wielding a 2 handed weapon, you don't take penalties for fighting with two weapons, you don't have to boost dex or anything besides strength, for that matter. However, the -2 to all attacks is a small price to pay for the benefits of having two weapons.

If min/maxxed properly, I do believe a fighter wielding two weapons will consistently out-perform a similarly min/maxxed greatsword wielder. Generally though, it takes some seemingly odd choices to really make this work. I'll give you an example; As you already know, I have a character of both of these types. I've already mentioned that the one wielding a large weapon uses a greatsword, but I never mentioned what weapons the other used. The one wielding two weapons wields two heavy picks. That's right, 1d6 damage with a x4 critical multiplier in each hand.

With the two-weapon wielder I took weapon master to increase the critical range and increase the multiplier, occasionally, but that's not even the best part. I took tempest high enough to get absolute ambidexterity, and at 21, I took wield oversized weapon to completely negate any penalties for fighting with two medium sized weapons. It's slightly more difficult to play and min/maxx a two weapon wielder, but it's definitely worth it in the end.

In closing, however, I will mention that with the new tactical feats wielding one weapon can certainly do jaw-dropping amounts of damage right after a charge. The problem with this is that after the first round, you're kind of limp compared to the whirling dance of death next to you.
Fiendish Dire Weasel
02-21-04, 08:54 PM In my experience, a single class Fighter, using basic feats (no OA, Dragon, etc), is much better off with a greatsword than anything else if you're looking for raw damage output. Be sure to get Power Attack and Cleave, maybe even Greater Cleave.

Most of the stuff has gone over previously in this thread. One thing I don't think I've seen:

In 3.5, with the new lower damage reduction, very often a Fighter with good Str, Weapon Specilization and Power Attack can often "bull through" beasties' DR and still do decent damage through it. Two-Weapon Fighters, if they don't have the ability to overcome the DR of a critter tend to be rendered pretty impotent (archers tend to have this same problem). Elemental damage on your weapons helps, but I've been finding too many critters in my game latley have both DR I can't over come normally and elemental resistances (much love for Fiends :rolleyes: ). Nothing brings me as much joy as my archery Ranger is doing 2 or 3 points of damage per attack while my greatsword wielding Fighter buddy is still doing 10-20 points of damage against critters with DR 5.

Cynosure's suggestion of going with weapons with exceptional critical ranges or multipliers while two-wepon fighting isn't a bad one. I've just always not been too thrilled about basing too much reliance on criticals, just because you end up loosing too much when you come upon critters immune to crits (I have a greatsword vs. scythe argument almost every week with another player :D ).
Snow Savant
02-21-04, 09:28 PM Folks, you can have the best of both worlds of TWF and THF.

1. Take TWF feat chain.

2. Pick up the Power Attack feat too, if you chose.

3. Now fight with a Greatsword in 2 hands ... and Armor Spikes as your "technical" off-hand weapon.

**

No extra feats needed, as both are martial weapons. Read the fine print for Armor Spikes ... it has an exception clause in it that allows you to use it as an off-hand weapon in TWF combat. So now you can Power Attack with 2-hands on your Greatsword, and still smack people with your Armor Spikes. A Buckler with Imp. Buckler Feat could be thrown in as well. Add in SA damage, Divine Might damage, Swashbuckler INT Mod. damage, and you are all set!

Hell, you could probably justify using your *one* set of Armor Spikes to be both primary *AND* off-hand weapon in TWF with the way the verbiage of the rules mechanics are explained. Because you are not using a specific hand to make your melee attacks (armor spikes cover the torso, both arms, both legs, elbows, knees, etc.), it's easy to imagine the concept of armor spikes being used in such a fashion. Albeit, you would look goofy as hell throwing your elbows and shins around in such a fashion. Although going this route would ensure that your 2 *real* hands could then be empty, and useable for other things such as catching disarmed weapons, magic wands, etc.

Also note, in the Underdark book, is the sister to Armor Spikes .... they are called Armor Blades. And they do slashing damage.

XO,
Snow :cloud9:
Stoned Golem
02-21-04, 09:56 PM I love the idea of a greatsword and armor razors Dervish, or a Snow Tiger barbarian with a single set of armor spikes as his only weapon.

There is some debate over the fact that the glossary specifically defines the off hand as the characters weaker or less dexterous hand. That could mean that since the "off hand" was holding the greatsword it would activate the armor spikes clause about off hand attacks from other sources. There are so many intent issues, wording issues, logic issues, and balance issues on the topic of THF plus armor spikes that I'm not sure what to think any more.:twitch:
Snow Savant
02-21-04, 10:03 PM Hee heeeeeeeee!!

It's crazy, isn't it, Stoned G?!

Add in Boot Blades (FRCS book) and it gets even more insane. Makes you wonder if combining all this crapola somehow or other triggers the legal acquisition of the Multiweapon feats. Yikes...

XO,
Snow:cloud9:
nihility
02-21-04, 10:08 PM The key to resolving the rules issue is to keep in mind that Armor Spikes, Blade Boots, and Armor Razors all have specific exceptions to the rules as part of their text. For example, Armor Razors says in it's description that "you can also make a regular melee attack (primary or off-hand) with the razors, and they count as a light weapon in this case." This is from Underdark page 65. So, as long as you can point to this rule, there's no need to worry about whether or not your "less dextrous hand" or whatever is wielding the weapon; it's a non-issue. Good thing that specific rules override general ones, no?
Stoned Golem
02-21-04, 11:00 PM Okay it's official. Now I want to play a Nezumi with Boot Blades, Armor Spikes, Tail Spikes, a Horned Helmet, and a Greatsword.:D

Seriously though, I'm sure there's some way to make a really effective Grappling Block/Karmic Strike/Double Hit build thanks to the quirks of armor spikes.
JosephKell
02-21-04, 11:12 PM Originally posted by Findail
Usually, a big 2-handed sword.

Dual-wielding works best if you have a significant number of "plusses" that apply to each hit. Strength doesn't count, because that works out the same (x1.5 for a two-handed weapon, x1 and x0.5 for dual wielding). Examples include Weapon Specialization, Favored Enemy, Sneak Attack, and magical bonuses on both weapons.

These have to be good enough to offset the fact that you're taking at least a -2 penalty to hit when dual-wielding. Don't forget the feat expenditure. Two-handed with even 2 less damage is better than Two-Weapon because you save feats and don't have to super pump your Dexterity.

It is a well known fact that this game favors heavy armor.

You are a fighter, and unless you are going Archery (in which case a Ranger is better anyway) you should just take a Two-handed weapon, a dagger, and a short bow.

Suggestions for a two-handed weapon is Greataxe, Greatsword, or Halberd (Halberd has the perk of being good against chargers).
Cynosure
02-22-04, 06:53 AM In 3.5, with the new lower damage reduction, very often a Fighter with good Str, Weapon Specilization and Power Attack can often "bull through" beasties' DR and still do decent damage through it. Two-Weapon Fighters, if they don't have the ability to overcome the DR of a critter tend to be rendered pretty impotent

I completely agree, Weasel. I actually enjoy playing the one-weapon brute considerably more than said heavy pick wielder. I generally have to carry around a dozen picks in my back pocket for damage reduction, but the other guy needs only one greatsword. DR 15/Cold Iron? Smash! DR 10/Silver? SMASH! Door? Rock? Wall? ... Sorry, got carried away. Frenzied Berserker rules.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Remin 02-20-04, 10:50 AM	First off a little bit of background. I will be playing the part of a human fighter in the next AD&D adventure we play. It is a tricky one as at the moment we have no Cleric / Healer in the party ( myself a Human fighter, an Elf Rogue, an Elf Ranger and a Half Elf Wizard). My question is, which would be best route for me to go to kill the enemy fastest, duel wielding or a big 2 handed sword ? Any advice would be most appreciated. Thanks
Findail 02-20-04, 11:06 AM	Usually, a big 2-handed sword. Dual-wielding works best if you have a significant number of "plusses" that apply to each hit. Strength doesn't count, because that works out the same (x1.5 for a two-handed weapon, x1 and x0.5 for dual wielding). Examples include Weapon Specialization, Favored Enemy, Sneak Attack, and magical bonuses on both weapons. These have to be good enough to offset the fact that you're taking at least a -2 penalty to hit when dual-wielding.
q'afuu 02-20-04, 11:19 AM	AD&D or D&D (IOW, 2nd Ed. or 3E)? In AD&D, dual-wielding beats two-handed hands down (excuse the extremely poor pun) in the offense department. In D&D, it's the other way around (for a fighter at least).
Remin 02-20-04, 11:34 AM	Sorry should have mentioned it is AD&D 3E. Also if it works out best to duel wielding, what are peoples thoughts on taking monkey grip and using a larger sword in my primary hand (with the -2 to attack) ? Thanks again
Cog 02-20-04, 12:31 PM	I've always thought that a 2handed weapon is better than 2 weapons in 3E. You need less feats for 2Handed weapons, and the amount of damage dealt is usually not much different. I'm not too sure about monkey grip.
The_Fan 02-20-04, 02:32 PM	Ever seen the Monty Python Fish-Slapping Dance? I think that sums up the difference pretty well :D
diaglo 02-20-04, 02:47 PM	the revision really will mess with you.;) 3ed if you don't have ambidexterity it will hurt you to go twf. and if you want real bang take a big sword. the 3.5 revision makes twf more feasible. but if you take power attack really ups the damage for 2handed.
jedi237 02-20-04, 09:36 PM	TWF means one more chance to roll the to hit die. Odds are better that you won't roll poorly twice. I personly like paired light weapons like short swords or hand axes because weapon focus weapon specialization improved critical greater... applies to both attacks and there is a minimum of penalties.
Eagle Prince 02-21-04, 07:44 AM	One good reason in 3.5 not to dual-wield with a light weapon is you can't power attack with light weapons, so I would say the best thing to dual-wield would be bastard swords and get a sunblade asap (since it counts as both shortsword and bastard sword). Monkey Grip is better for a two-handed weapon, because with two-weapon fighting you already are taking attack roll penalties.
Neonsamurai 02-21-04, 08:52 AM	(I assume 3.5 rules version of D&D for this post since you didn't post what version you use.) Okay here a little break down on 2WF and 2HF. Two handed fighting (2HF) 2HF gives you 1.5 STR mod on your damage. You don't need to burn feats to use it and you can utilize power attack to deal great amounts of damage versus lower AC opponents. You can deal insane amounts of damage when using the Complete Warrior source book. Frenzied Berserker and the feats shock trooper and combat brute easily enable you to deal 150+ damage per round. With a two handed weapon you are more resistant versus disarm attacks since you get a +4 bonus on your check for holding the weapon with both hands. Now the down sides: You sacrifice some defense since you can't use a shield. While this is not so important, you also sacrifice a slot for certain special abilities that your shield could carry. This can later be countered with an animated shield. Good but expensive. You can't use a two-handed weapon in a grapple. At the first glance this doesn't seem so important but there are many monsters with insane grapple modifiers. Without a light weapon you quickly become dead meat in such an encounter so don't forget to always have a backup weapon at hand. Furthermore be wary that your DM can always ask for a grapple check if you want to draw a weapon within a grapple. When i DM i normally don't use this tactic, but it is viable (see grapple paragraph in PHB or here (http://3.5srd.com/web/sovelior_sage_srd/Sovelior%20SRD/specialAttacks.html)) and can be extremely deadly. Two-Weapon Fighting (2WF) To get the most effect from 2WF you need to have some sort of extra damage other than your STR. This is important since your to-hit chance is reduced due to the -2 penalty for 2WFing and your STR mod for damage on your off-hand is halved. Here are some sources for extra damage: rogue sneak attack dice swashbuckler's level 3 ability "insightful strike" (complete warrior) elemental damage dice weapon enhancement divine might feat (complete warrior) any other ability that lets you use an ability modifier other than strength to add to damage dervish's dervish dance damage bonus (complete warrior) Basically you need to have an average bonus damage of at least +10 to be effective. Thus 3 sneak attack dice would suffice or any other combination of the above mentioned abilities. These days i prefer a setup like Swashbuckler3 / Rogue3 / Dervish 10 or Swashbuckler3 / Fighter2 / Dervish10 / Rogue5 for my 2WF builds. It gives a nice combination of class abilities and skills. Rogue 20, Fighter2 / Rogue 18 and Ranger 2 / Rogue 18 are also all good 2WF setups. When you follow these guidelines you will be able to deal around 60-100 damage per round possibly a lot more if you concentrate on improved critical (scimitar) and dervish. With complete warrior you can even retain your ability to have a shield, retain its AC bonus and use 2WF ! The feat you need is improved buckler defense. With it you can use a buckler when performing off-hand attacks, though you suffer an additional -1 penalty on your attack rolls for your off-hand attacks. Always remember that 2WFers are very vulnerable to disarm and sunder attacks. Normally they use a pair of light weapons to get the most effect from feats like improved critical and power critical. With light weapons you suffer a -4 penalty on opposed checks against sunder and disarm attempts so be wary of these attacks. The good thing though is that you can continue your fighting style in a grapple thus bypassing grapple checks. Normally a 2WFer won't have a lot of strength since he needs to burn his best ability score on dexterity to qualify for the complete 2WF feat chain. Conclusion As you see 2HF is clearly the better way to go. It is easier and gains you more damage output and on top makes you more resistant to certain special attacks though you might be more vulnerable to grapple attacks. 2WF on the other hand got a lot of style and is imo the more challenging way to go for a min/maxer. As i always say, everyone can put together a power attacking frenzied berserker but making a viable 2WF build is indeed some kind of challenge. Now make your own decision ;)
shamalamastreetman 02-21-04, 09:44 AM	Let's look at the numbers shall we? Compare 2 fighters with the following in common: Both cases STR 18 Both cases use feats from PHB 3.5 only 2WF has 1d6 damage light weapons (best for off hand penalties and same weapons means specialization applies to both hands) 2WF puts plusses in dex every 4 levels 2HF uses 2d6 damage weapon 2HF puts plusses in str every 4 levels below we'll list the following columns (formulas in brackets): character level, prim hand # attacks, secondary hand # attacks, strength modifier, avg weapon damage, damage bonus from specialization, total damage output (sum prim hand damage + str all multiplied by # of atatcks with hand, then sum all secondary hand damage + 1/2 str mod then multiplied by # attacks in sec hand), BAB, final to-hit (BAB + str mod - penalties), avg AC to hit @ lvl, chance to hit (to-hit chance minus avg AC multiplied by 0.05), final damage throughput (total damage output times chance to hit) 1 1 1 4 3 0 12 1 3 13 50% 6 2 1 1 4 3 0 12 2 4 14 50% 6 3 1 1 4 3 0 12 3 5 15 50% 6 4 1 1 4 3 2 16 4 6 16 50% 8 5 1 1 4 3 2 16 5 7 17 50% 8 6 2 2 4 3 2 32 6 8 18 50% 16 7 2 2 4 3 2 32 7 9 19 50% 16 8 2 2 4 3 2 32 8 10 20 50% 16 9 2 2 4 3 2 32 9 11 21 50% 16 10 2 2 4 3 2 32 10 12 22 50% 16 11 3 3 4 3 2 48 11 13 23 50% 24 12 3 3 4 3 4 60 12 14 24 50% 30 13 3 3 4 3 4 60 13 15 25 50% 30 14 3 3 4 3 4 60 14 16 26 50% 30 15 3 3 4 3 4 60 15 17 27 50% 30 16 4 3 4 3 4 71 16 18 28 50% 36 17 4 3 4 3 4 71 17 19 29 50% 36 18 4 3 4 3 4 71 18 20 30 50% 36 19 4 3 4 3 4 71 19 21 31 50% 36 20 4 3 4 3 4 71 20 22 32 50% 36 Do the same for 2HF (just omit # attacks for off hand- 3rd column from above) 1 1 4 3 0 12 1 5 13 60% 7 2 1 4 3 0 12 2 6 14 60% 7 3 1 4 6 0 12 3 7 15 60% 7 4 1 4 6 2 14 4 8 16 60% 8 5 1 4 6 2 14 5 9 17 60% 8 6 2 4 6 2 28 6 10 18 60% 17 7 2 4 6 2 28 7 11 19 60% 17 8 2 5 6 2 31 8 13 20 65% 20 9 2 5 6 2 31 9 14 21 65% 20 10 2 5 6 2 31 10 15 22 65% 20 11 3 5 6 2 47 11 16 23 65% 30 12 3 5 6 4 53 12 17 24 65% 34 13 3 5 6 4 53 13 18 25 65% 34 14 3 5 6 4 53 14 19 26 65% 34 15 3 5 6 4 53 15 20 27 65% 34 16 4 6 6 4 76 16 22 28 70% 53 17 4 6 6 4 76 17 23 29 70% 53 18 4 6 6 4 76 18 24 30 70% 53 19 4 6 6 4 76 19 25 31 70% 53 20 4 6 6 4 76 20 26 32 70% 53 Conclusion? 2HF!
Bafslikia 02-21-04, 03:36 PM	Also worth considering in the debate between two-handed fighting and two-weapon fighting is the sword-and board factor. Using the shield-bash feat tree you can fight two-weapon style using a shield as your off hand weapon. Doing the same damage as most light weapons, and retaining the AC shield bonus. And the magic qualities a magic shield will bring with it later on. I forget, can Dancing Shields be used by TWFers? I would think so, but I know it was ruled monks can't use them. There is also the Two-Weapon Defence feat chain, you get an AC bonus from the off-hand weapon you're attacking with, but it gets very feat intensive, and you can't get any shield qualities. Also, when using TWF, you are making more attack rolls, getting more overall chances to hit, and roll criticals or 20s. Elemental bursts, vorpals, and that tentacle-blade quality I heard about being in the FRCS Underdark book work slightly better with TWF than THF. cheers
PhaedrusXY 02-21-04, 03:55 PM	Originally posted by Remin Sorry should have mentioned it is AD&D 3E. There is no such edition. Drop the A. Unless you're going to be taking rogue levels for Sneak Attack dice, adding a bunch of elemental damage enhancments to your swords, or using Divine Might to add your Charisma mod to damage (and have a very good Charisma), you're better off using a two-handed weapon.
Snow Savant 02-21-04, 04:25 PM	I have a Gatling Chain Fighter build out there that emphasizes TWF Trip & Double-Hit Karmic Striking. Worth a look for its alternative mechanical emphasis on TWF fighting. It's made to make a million Trip attacks, control battlefield movement, and ensure your opponent never gets a full attack option against you (Side Step feat). And it's highly customizable. Note: it uses the Chain Link, not the Spiked Chain. Chain Link is in OA and SavSpec books. XO, Snow :cloud9:
Cynosure 02-21-04, 07:46 PM	I've played both a Greatsword wielder and a two-weapon fighter to a decent level. In my humble opinion, wielding two weapons is generally better than wielding on large one, but of course both have their ups and downs. When wielding a 2 handed weapon, you don't take penalties for fighting with two weapons, you don't have to boost dex or anything besides strength, for that matter. However, the -2 to all attacks is a small price to pay for the benefits of having two weapons. If min/maxxed properly, I do believe a fighter wielding two weapons will consistently out-perform a similarly min/maxxed greatsword wielder. Generally though, it takes some seemingly odd choices to really make this work. I'll give you an example; As you already know, I have a character of both of these types. I've already mentioned that the one wielding a large weapon uses a greatsword, but I never mentioned what weapons the other used. The one wielding two weapons wields two heavy picks. That's right, 1d6 damage with a x4 critical multiplier in each hand. With the two-weapon wielder I took weapon master to increase the critical range and increase the multiplier, occasionally, but that's not even the best part. I took tempest high enough to get absolute ambidexterity, and at 21, I took wield oversized weapon to completely negate any penalties for fighting with two medium sized weapons. It's slightly more difficult to play and min/maxx a two weapon wielder, but it's definitely worth it in the end. In closing, however, I will mention that with the new tactical feats wielding one weapon can certainly do jaw-dropping amounts of damage right after a charge. The problem with this is that after the first round, you're kind of limp compared to the whirling dance of death next to you.
Fiendish Dire Weasel 02-21-04, 08:54 PM	In my experience, a single class Fighter, using basic feats (no OA, Dragon, etc), is much better off with a greatsword than anything else if you're looking for raw damage output. Be sure to get Power Attack and Cleave, maybe even Greater Cleave. Most of the stuff has gone over previously in this thread. One thing I don't think I've seen: In 3.5, with the new lower damage reduction, very often a Fighter with good Str, Weapon Specilization and Power Attack can often "bull through" beasties' DR and still do decent damage through it. Two-Weapon Fighters, if they don't have the ability to overcome the DR of a critter tend to be rendered pretty impotent (archers tend to have this same problem). Elemental damage on your weapons helps, but I've been finding too many critters in my game latley have both DR I can't over come normally and elemental resistances (much love for Fiends :rolleyes: ). Nothing brings me as much joy as my archery Ranger is doing 2 or 3 points of damage per attack while my greatsword wielding Fighter buddy is still doing 10-20 points of damage against critters with DR 5. Cynosure's suggestion of going with weapons with exceptional critical ranges or multipliers while two-wepon fighting isn't a bad one. I've just always not been too thrilled about basing too much reliance on criticals, just because you end up loosing too much when you come upon critters immune to crits (I have a greatsword vs. scythe argument almost every week with another player :D ).
Snow Savant 02-21-04, 09:28 PM	Folks, you can have the best of both worlds of TWF and THF. 1. Take TWF feat chain. 2. Pick up the Power Attack feat too, if you chose. 3. Now fight with a Greatsword in 2 hands ... and Armor Spikes as your "technical" off-hand weapon. ** No extra feats needed, as both are martial weapons. Read the fine print for Armor Spikes ... it has an exception clause in it that allows you to use it as an off-hand weapon in TWF combat. So now you can Power Attack with 2-hands on your Greatsword, and still smack people with your Armor Spikes. A Buckler with Imp. Buckler Feat could be thrown in as well. Add in SA damage, Divine Might damage, Swashbuckler INT Mod. damage, and you are all set! Hell, you could probably justify using your one set of Armor Spikes to be both primary AND off-hand weapon in TWF with the way the verbiage of the rules mechanics are explained. Because you are not using a specific hand to make your melee attacks (armor spikes cover the torso, both arms, both legs, elbows, knees, etc.), it's easy to imagine the concept of armor spikes being used in such a fashion. Albeit, you would look goofy as hell throwing your elbows and shins around in such a fashion. Although going this route would ensure that your 2 real hands could then be empty, and useable for other things such as catching disarmed weapons, magic wands, etc. Also note, in the Underdark book, is the sister to Armor Spikes .... they are called Armor Blades. And they do slashing damage. XO, Snow :cloud9:
Stoned Golem 02-21-04, 09:56 PM	I love the idea of a greatsword and armor razors Dervish, or a Snow Tiger barbarian with a single set of armor spikes as his only weapon. There is some debate over the fact that the glossary specifically defines the off hand as the characters weaker or less dexterous hand. That could mean that since the "off hand" was holding the greatsword it would activate the armor spikes clause about off hand attacks from other sources. There are so many intent issues, wording issues, logic issues, and balance issues on the topic of THF plus armor spikes that I'm not sure what to think any more.:twitch:
Snow Savant 02-21-04, 10:03 PM	Hee heeeeeeeee!! It's crazy, isn't it, Stoned G?! Add in Boot Blades (FRCS book) and it gets even more insane. Makes you wonder if combining all this crapola somehow or other triggers the legal acquisition of the Multiweapon feats. Yikes... XO, Snow:cloud9:
nihility 02-21-04, 10:08 PM	The key to resolving the rules issue is to keep in mind that Armor Spikes, Blade Boots, and Armor Razors all have specific exceptions to the rules as part of their text. For example, Armor Razors says in it's description that "you can also make a regular melee attack (primary or off-hand) with the razors, and they count as a light weapon in this case." This is from Underdark page 65. So, as long as you can point to this rule, there's no need to worry about whether or not your "less dextrous hand" or whatever is wielding the weapon; it's a non-issue. Good thing that specific rules override general ones, no?
Stoned Golem 02-21-04, 11:00 PM	Okay it's official. Now I want to play a Nezumi with Boot Blades, Armor Spikes, Tail Spikes, a Horned Helmet, and a Greatsword.:D Seriously though, I'm sure there's some way to make a really effective Grappling Block/Karmic Strike/Double Hit build thanks to the quirks of armor spikes.
JosephKell 02-21-04, 11:12 PM	Originally posted by Findail Usually, a big 2-handed sword. Dual-wielding works best if you have a significant number of "plusses" that apply to each hit. Strength doesn't count, because that works out the same (x1.5 for a two-handed weapon, x1 and x0.5 for dual wielding). Examples include Weapon Specialization, Favored Enemy, Sneak Attack, and magical bonuses on both weapons. These have to be good enough to offset the fact that you're taking at least a -2 penalty to hit when dual-wielding. Don't forget the feat expenditure. Two-handed with even 2 less damage is better than Two-Weapon because you save feats and don't have to super pump your Dexterity. It is a well known fact that this game favors heavy armor. You are a fighter, and unless you are going Archery (in which case a Ranger is better anyway) you should just take a Two-handed weapon, a dagger, and a short bow. Suggestions for a two-handed weapon is Greataxe, Greatsword, or Halberd (Halberd has the perk of being good against chargers).
Cynosure 02-22-04, 06:53 AM	In 3.5, with the new lower damage reduction, very often a Fighter with good Str, Weapon Specilization and Power Attack can often "bull through" beasties' DR and still do decent damage through it. Two-Weapon Fighters, if they don't have the ability to overcome the DR of a critter tend to be rendered pretty impotent I completely agree, Weasel. I actually enjoy playing the one-weapon brute considerably more than said heavy pick wielder. I generally have to carry around a dozen picks in my back pocket for damage reduction, but the other guy needs only one greatsword. DR 15/Cold Iron? Smash! DR 10/Silver? SMASH! Door? Rock? Wall? ... Sorry, got carried away. Frenzied Berserker rules.