Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ZER0 10-10-05, 09:35 PM	Alright, my buddy thinks that his wicked archer build, consisting of 10 Levels of Fighter and 10 Levels of Order of the Bow Initiate, can beat a Level 20 Druid. I'm making the Druid to take him down. He'll be able to do a fair deal of damage within 60ft. I'm thinking go Huge Elemental, sunder his weapon, and then just shred him to pieces because now he's helpless.
Skulan 10-10-05, 09:43 PM	How about casting Shapechange, turning into something that's immune to piercing damage, and laughing hard enough to knock your dice off the table? -Skulan
RadicalTaoist 10-10-05, 09:45 PM	The Elementals are where it's at. Immune to precision damage. Become one, then summon some. Grapple and hold him down, then Shapechange while your minions pin him and spend like 5 rounds of your Shapechange turning into weak monsters like kobolds and goblins, and laughing at him.
Tempest Stormwind 10-10-05, 09:46 PM	Anything with a burrow speed, preferrably with Swallow Whole, can own any martial character who doesn't fly. This can be particularily lethal with Draconic Wildshape. Alternately, summon. Summon like the wind! Elementals, plants, whatever's immune to sneak attack (and thus Precise Shot). The ultimate stunt, though, involves the 3rd level spell Wind Wall. It includes the wonderous line "Arrows and bolts are deflected upward and miss, while any other normal ranged weapon passing through the wall has a 30% miss chance." It's also shapable, and medium-range (i.e. 300 ft away at this level). Summon two or three of them encircling him (quicken one) and just summon beasties inside. Then pull off any of the other tricks. The thing with the druid is that it can excel in ANY of a large number of fields, and it doesn't even need a specific build to do it.
Skulan 10-10-05, 09:53 PM	Ooh, or Shapechange into an Elder Black Pudding. Unless he starts smacking you with a stone hammer, you've pretty much got him. I recommend grappling. -Skulan
ZER0 10-10-05, 10:58 PM	That's a lot more suggestions a lot quicker than I thought I'd get. The obvious problem with any kind of ooze, though, is the hideously slow speed. Still, I could always fly over him, Shapechange into an ooze, and flop right on top of him. Thanks a lot for the advice. I think I can figure the rest from here. Thanks again and take it easy.
Prominence 10-10-05, 11:58 PM	It doesn't matter if you're slow, you're immune to all of his damage. You can sit there and use natural spell / stuff and just beat him down. Summon nature's Ally IX for a few goodies, etc. The only thing he can possibly do to you is ready an action to shoot you, so quicken windwall and he can't do anything to your shapechange spell. Alternatively, you can just pelt him with spells that have no save. Druid spell list isn't that bad. edit: Obscuring Mist, Lv1 Spell. Grants total concealment - more than enough time to cast your spells. Warp Wood, Lv2 spell. Makes bow useless. Wind Wall, Lv3 spell. Deflects Arrows. Shape Stone, Lv3 Spell. Wait. Suffocate. Die. No Save. Animal Companion : Stronger than his. If you lose, it's because of poor planning on your part or kbsnowowl's archer build (with winning initiative).
Tweedledope 10-11-05, 12:14 AM	Okay...here's the trick. Windwall. Honestly, it'll last for 20 rounds and your buddy can't do a damned thing for that time. So, what do you do? Buff and Shapechange. He'll be pissin' on himself when he sees you transform into something immune to piercing damage. Or, conversly, you could simply use Tree Stride to appear behind him (saying you're in a forrested area) while in...say...Dire Polar Bear form and grapple him. In a grapple, your friend is useless and at your mercy. As a matter of fact, just to spite him, I would transform into a Legendary Eagle (for the retarded AC and Dex and speed) then fly towards him and quickchange (A feat that will work well with your build) into a dire polar bear and tear him to shreds. This routine allows you to avoid damage (mostly) and uses no spellcasting...something you can later rub in his face. Or go Druid 5/MoMF 10/Warshaper 5...War Troll...kill him. -=TD=-
ZER0 10-11-05, 11:58 AM	That build is nice, but the point of this fight is a straight Druid.
Lilt 10-11-05, 12:33 PM	There are any number of ways to beat him as a straight druid. I quite like giving druids the Guerilla Warrior feat from HoB so that they can be masters of stealth too (Makes Hide and Move Silently class skills). I find that druids can usually afford OK intelligence (thanks to the fact that they don't generally need good physical attributes) giving them enough skill points for the stealth skills on top of the classic skill set. Having maxxed stealth skills in a dexterous wildshape/shapechange form (many of which have hide and move silently bonuses built-in) is going to make it awfly hard for him to see you until you're on top of him.
Encard 10-11-05, 01:30 PM	If you have access to Serpent Kingdoms, an easy way to handle the situation is to shapechange into a Nagahydra and use its cast five spells per round ability to rip him apart in a round. Alternately, venomfire + five bite attacks isn't bad. Or you can go with a pyro/cryohydra. Or wildshape to some sort of handy-dandy grappler and tear him up that way. Don't forget the Greater Luminous Armor spell from the BoED... +8 AC is never exactly bad. There are, of course, tons of other options.
CompleteSatori 10-11-05, 02:01 PM	I quite like giving druids the Guerilla Warrior feat from HoB so that they can be masters of stealth too (Makes Hide and Move Silently class skills). Druids already have Hide and Move Silent as class skills don't they?
Khazra Reborn 10-11-05, 03:17 PM	you could just try & sumon a load of tigers or something, theres no way he'll be able to take out a group of enemies.
Sang-Drax 10-11-05, 03:35 PM	Druids already have Hide and Move Silent as class skills don't they? Actually, no... but they do have Forestfold spell for +20 on both skills :) Really, you don't even have to worry too much with this fight. Just cast Wind Wall around you and summon critter to kill him, or blast him to death. You won't even need to wild shape!
aelryinth 10-11-05, 03:43 PM	Actually, he needs a standard action for the Precision Damage...which means he gets one shot a round with +5d8. Wahoo. A good archer build has Deepwood Stalker and depends on crits with elemental Burst effects. The new enchantment that doubles arrows is also sick. Keep in mind that if he has any brains he's going to be packing arrows with dispels or something on them...and an Anti-Magic field will stop most of y our spells and shapechanginess, while doing nothing to stop his arrows once they leave the shell. A good archer can take that Druid out in one round before you get in spell range. Unfortunately, that archer build doesn't sound like an optimized Archer. Hunter's Mercy and 5 burst effects with levels in Deepwood stalker increasing the crit multipliers would make your Druid cry (that first arrow hitting you at, say, 500 feet would be doing an average of about 200 pts, I believe). Wind Wall? You don't even know what direction he's firing from! ==Aelryinth
Medicelious-Melharmonac 10-11-05, 03:44 PM	The problem with the summonings is that he probably has a permanent item of Prot From ... Meaning anything summoned cannot touch him. WindWall is your best bet. Follow it up with a venomfire on your fleshraker. Then cast dominate Animal on his companion and turn it against him. :devil: Or you could just Cometfall him to death.
AllistairAldred 10-11-05, 04:27 PM	Hehe, honestly it comes down to tactics, In my opinion. If the Archer can get the jump id say he can beat you, because you have a limited number of spells per day, and im sure he has ALOT of arrows. But if he tries to straight up duel you in open air....ill give it to the druid.
Prominence 10-11-05, 04:35 PM	aelryinth: That is why we suggested Quicken, just in case you do lose initiative. If he shoots an AMF, it destroys his own magic damage bonuses too. His +1 weapon with 4 elemental bursts is now a standard composite longbow for damage. Furthermore, AMF's are only a 10 foot radius, pretty easy to step out of and it serves more to actually help the druid live compared to the archer. Medicelious-Melharmonac: Summon Nature's Ally can summon critters with ranged ability, such as the pixie with memory loss arrows. hrm, he's a Lv20 fighter 10 / OotBI 10... that's 10+19x5.5 (avg) +6(con guess)x20 = 10 + 105 + 120 or 235 HP. You could theoretically maximize a firestorm for 120 dmg, then quicken a spell for 15 damage and finger of death him. Toss a bunch of Fire seeds into a bag of holding or something, throw it at him, ignite them, for a few thousand d6 or something. There's plenty of interesting ways to finish him off, and there's some simple spells he just can't do anything about.
Judging Eagle 10-11-05, 06:08 PM	Rofl, yeah man, you did get a lot of responses to your question (Like i said, the wotc boards are the best place to ask anything, since there are just so many people here who know their stuff). You should also try using elemental swarm (9th lvl druid)(http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/elementalSwarm.htm). The only problem is apparent when you read the following: When the spell is complete, 2d4 large elementals appear. Ten minutes after that, 1d4 huge elementals appear. Ten minutes ater that one greater elemental appears. Each elemetal has the maximum hit points per HD. Once these creatures appear, they serve you for the duration of the spell (10 min/level). Shambler (3-6 (1d4+2) 11HD shambling mounds) is an other good 9th lvl spell. Storm of Vengeance and Summon Nature's Ally 9 are also good 9th lvl spells. You know what you could do? Elemental Wild Shape into a huge elemental (air to get far, earth if you want to tank (but you don't get bonus HP, only a boost to your Concentration checks). Summon an Elemental Swarm, or Shambling Mounds to act as a buffer; or quickened windwall him in, then summon the monsters to crush him. Best bet, rely on your biggest asset and try to maximize his biggest weakness. Magic and melee damage and mass combatants are your biggest benefits and his biggest problems. If you summon 5+ large fire elementals and have them all grapple/pin him the duel's in the bag. Your best bet is to summon as many fire elementals with elemental swarm. They might not have an amazing HP, but they'll connect with their hits often enough (Slam +10) and will deal tons of damage (2d6+2 +2d6 Fire); 2 slams with a full attack. The trick is to use their +15 on grapple checks to grab him, then grapple, then pin. You can also have mutiple people assist in a grapple. Remeber that one LG event where sean's monk grappled that one elf and my fighter helped out? The elf escaped sean's grapple but since I was there she didn't leave and then we were able to re-grapple, pin her then tie her up. So have all of the 2-8 large elementals grapple his character; you should have a +19 since your elementals will be a size category larger than his PC. Plus, the elementals all have maxed HD, so the large elementals go from 60 hp to 88 hp (8d8 + 24) each; the huge elementals get a boost from 136 hp to 192 (16d8 + 64) and the greater elemental goes from 178 hp to 252 hp(21d8+84). Note, you won't get more than the large elementals since it's 10 minutes for the huge and 10 more for the greater... and that's like 100 rounds for the huge elementals and 200 from the casting time for the greater elemental (10 rounds = 1 minutes; 100 rounds). You could however change to an air elemental, summon tons of air elementals and just run away for 24 minutes (after getting your 4th greater air elemental) then utterly destroy him with your.... 4x (2d4 large) + 4x (1d4 huge) + 4x (1 greater) = 4 (2-8) + 4 (1-4) + 4 greater = 8-32 large elementals + 4-16 huge elementals + 4 greater elementals =~ 20 large + 10 huge + 4 greater There's no way he can stop that many elementals. With a fly (perfect) speed of 100' you will be so far away at all times that he'll never be able to do anything about you being far enough long enough to get those last 4 more greater elementals. That's only using 4 9th lvl spells. You should be casting flame strikes and wood warps and all sorts of other sheisse onto him for those 20-odd minutes you're waiting. You get 5 1-5th lvl spells and 4 6-9th lvl spells. 6th -Wall of stone (you get 20 5-foot squares that are 4 inches thick each; if you go for 1 inch thick stone walls you get 80 5-foot squares to use) You can make this into any shape, so you could make a dead-end corridor with two walls 5 feet apart (and a single 5 foot across wall at one end) space that gives no reflex save (since he can walk out the one end Muahaha) that has walls that are ..... well, let's say 10 feet high since an 8 foot high high jump is a DC 32 (he can't climb sheer walls) and the walls would form an uncovered corridor.... no a covered corridor and have the walls be 5 feet high so the fighter/order of the bow initiate has to crawl so that he can't run. Oh gods I'm evil... So, we've got him stuck in a covered pathway... let's reduce the area to 40 squares so that he has to break hardnes 8 and 30 hp (15 hp/inch) (break DC of 24; 20 +2 per inch). So, we have now... 3 5-foot square wide walls, top and the two sides. All three can extend by 13 squares (and a last square on one of the sides), 13*5 = 65 squares that the fighter/OoTB will have to CRAWL through before actually being able to leave. And Guess what? you can make him get stuck in a loop if he can't get out, or simply close the path that you have and then add more stone on top to make escape even harder. So, you could add an other 3 more castings or 6 more inches all around so that he'd have to break Hardness 8 HP 120 (8*15) or a break DC of 28. When he breaks out the elementals will will all ready to rip him open. or you can use some 6th lvl slots on these: -Cat's Grace, Mass -Dispel Magic 7th -Changestaff (turn a staff into a treant, immune to crits, use them to buy you time as you cast other spells?) -Firestorm (1d6/lvl, max 20d6; two 10 foot cubes per level) (you can potentially cast 4 of these, so 80d6 in 4 rounds) Leave a slot at one of the openings of the stone hallway, then throw in 4 firestorms so that he get's cooked alive. Use your lower lvl spells to summon tons and tons of weak monsters that he'll be hard pressed to kill all at once without 8 more being able to attack him.
Kuroi Kenshi 10-11-05, 06:29 PM	Uh...yeah. Your friend is a funny one.
Judging Eagle 10-12-05, 07:40 PM	Oh, one other thing. No Cohorts. He could just play cheap and get a druid 18 cohort.
RadicalTaoist 10-12-05, 10:00 PM	Then be cheaptaculous, and grab a level 18 Cleric cohort.
Lilt 10-13-05, 08:12 AM	Keep in mind that if he has any brains he's going to be packing arrows with dispels or something on them...and an Anti-Magic field will stop most of y our spells and shapechanginess, while doing nothing to stop his arrows once they leave the shell.It relies on GM intervention to really allow such arrows to exist (that is, without arcane archer levels to imbue the arrow).A good archer can take that Druid out in one round before you get in spell range. Unfortunately, that archer build doesn't sound like an optimized Archer.The same goes vice-versa. A good druid should be able to take-out the archer with sufficient stealth to get within spell range. Long spell range is 1200ft which is enough to give -120 on spot and listen checks. True Seeing has a range limit of 120 ft, which is well within spell range. Hunter's Mercy and 5 burst effects with levels in Deepwood stalker increasing the crit multipliers would make your Druid cry (that first arrow hitting you at, say, 500 feet would be doing an average of about 200 pts, I believe). Wind Wall? You don't even know what direction he's firing from!You don't even know where the druid is either at that range.
Tempest Stormwind 10-13-05, 10:11 AM	A good archer can take that Druid out in one round before you get in spell range. Unfortunately, that archer build doesn't sound like an optimized Archer. Hunter's Mercy and 5 burst effects with levels in Deepwood stalker increasing the crit multipliers would make your Druid cry (that first arrow hitting you at, say, 500 feet would be doing an average of about 200 pts, I believe). Wind Wall? You don't even know what direction he's firing from! ==Aelryinth Wind Wall can be cast in a circle, for one thing. Completely around you, or completely around him, if you wish. With a wild shape that can burrow, and plenty of debris (dust, snow, sand, whatever) you can also use it as a decoy. And that said, a prepared druid will not be taken down by anything except Snow Owl's builds, which are 3.0 and rely on the target being evil. And it certainly won't be with precision damage, which is in such short range that Wind Wall (or heck, even polymorphing into a really, really, REALLY big lug) can easily defeat it.
ksbsnowowl 10-13-05, 01:50 PM	The problem with the summonings is that he probably has a permanent item of Prot From ... Meaning anything summoned cannot touch him. As far as I know there is no Protection from Neutral spell - just summon some earth and air elementals (you do have Rashemi Elemental Summoning, don't you?) Heck, a Thommil (templated earth elemental) could just grapple the sucker, engulf him, and then earth glide down into the ground, pulling the archer with him. Even if the archer succeeds at getting out of the grapple at that point, he'll find himself burried in the earth. And Tempest, There is a way my sniper build can be made to work against good individuals. Take a level of Pious Templar and get the spells of a Blackguard - he now has Corrupt Weapon, the antithesis of Bless Weapon. But that's probably moot anyway; the druid will be Neutral if he knows what's good for him.
Prominence 10-13-05, 02:47 PM	Neutral Good druid isn't terrible, can always use CD and BoED abuse.
El_Machinae 10-13-05, 03:04 PM	Hmmn, a lot of these tactics seem weak if the Archer has an anti-magic shield. Won't that even cancel a wildshape?
ninjarabbit 10-13-05, 03:26 PM	I'm surprised no one has mentioned a Vow of Poverty druid yet.
batstek 10-13-05, 03:39 PM	Hmmn, a lot of these tactics seem weak if the Archer has an anti-magic shield. Won't that even cancel a wildshape? Unless this is a cleric archer, then I'm not sure it's possible anyway. Regardless... I assume you mean Antimagic field, which really isn't that big a deal. The archer loses out on the ability to use magic to buff himself (or use magical weapons), and the druid can just use no SR spells from a distance to own him afterwards. Flashflood (Sandstorm) and Glacier (Frostburn) are both conjuration spells that as long as they aren't cast into an antimagic field will still be in effect if part of it enters one.
g23armani 10-13-05, 05:02 PM	Tactics are going to be the biggets factor here. Can you give us more information on how the duel will start? How far away will you be? Will you be aware of each other already? This is going to factor in considerably... G23armani
CompleteSatori 10-13-05, 05:38 PM	I'm surprised no one has mentioned a Vow of Poverty druid yet. Because at 20th level the VoP druid is incredibly sub-par. You just cannot be missing out on almost 1 million gold peices worth of items, especially when the Archer has used them to his advantage. Make sure you have an Amulet of Wildshape, and a Robes of Verminshape (obvious) just to maximize your useage of Wildshape. We can get into items further once we know the setting of this combat.
Inkubus 10-13-05, 06:23 PM	Make sure you have an Amulet of Wildshape, and a Robes of Verminshape (obvious) just to maximize your useage of Wildshape. That actually sounds interesting. I know about the wildshape amulet (my druid character even owns one of those :D ) but I've never heard of a robe of verminshape. Could you tell me what book this is from, please? Cheers, Inkubus
Moon-Lancer 10-13-05, 06:54 PM	venomfire... dont use it. Its a good spell, but it really wont prove that a druid is better, just that in one source book, a poorly written spell got through playtesting. Its really not a fun spell and any dm worth anything wont let a player use it. It should have been yanti only, or 1d6 per an attack/rounds If you go with vop you can use true seeing and freedom of movement all the time. Go with dragon wildshape with vop and it gets very cool. Shadow dragon is a really good form to be in. Shapechange can do lots.
Lilt 10-13-05, 07:18 PM	If the archer puts himself in an AMF then good for him... The druid just waits a coupple of hours before killing him. Oddly enough, AMF is an offensive spell rather than a defensive one as if it's used in defense then you can always wait until it goes down.
Encard 10-13-05, 08:11 PM	Wildshape Amulet caps at the wildshaping of a 20th level druid, iirc, so it wouldn't help this chatacter. I'd have to disagree about venomfire - if you want to use a poisonous form, go for it. After all, the archer's going to be using the most powerful non-core stuff he can find, so why shouldn't you?
michael_noah 10-14-05, 09:37 AM	Because you can easily make an all-core druid and still own him.
Encard 10-14-05, 10:36 AM	You could, but unless the contest is core druid vs. the other guy, holding back really isn't worth the bother.
Tempest Stormwind 10-14-05, 01:03 PM	You could, but unless the contest is core druid vs. the other guy, holding back really isn't worth the bother. Except for show, which I think is totally worth it here.
Arikas 10-14-05, 01:30 PM	well first round id probably cast windwall and stand behind it and laugh as his arrows cant make it through, then yea, turn into elementals, summon a few, and then go at him. he'll do minimum damage
RadicalTaoist 10-14-05, 02:12 PM	Because at 20th level the VoP druid is incredibly sub-par. Actually, VoP druids are not bad at all - I'd argue that Druids are the only class that can truly optimize VoP (psions and psywars come close, though). The VoP druid's only real weakness is DR, and at least he has spells (and insane damage output) to deal with that. While we're talking venomfire...has anyone seen druid material they were NOT surprised to see get past playtesting? Including in the PHB?
Judging Eagle 10-15-05, 01:28 PM	venomfire... dont use it. Its a good spell, but it really wont prove that a druid is better, just that in one source book, a poorly written spell got through playtesting. Its really not a fun spell and any dm worth anything wont let a player use it. It should have been yanti only, or 1d6 per an attack/rounds If you go with vop you can use true seeing and freedom of movement all the time. Go with dragon wildshape with vop and it gets very cool. Shadow dragon is a really good form to be in. Shapechange can do lots. Scary thing is. In... one campaign he wants to make a ranger/sorcerer/dragon disciple; draconic heritage: shadow dragon. You don't need to re-mention it. /swt
Moon-Lancer 10-15-05, 02:35 PM	well if you want to go the broken spell rout you could also use a full days worth of quill blast the cast a death spell or bailfull polymorph. However, i think if you stay as close to core as possible, and win, it will prove your point even more. That druids can rock. Nature 1 : Other 0 Venomfire probably wont work. at the end of the spell discription it says: "This spell has no effect on creatures that do not naturally produce poison." So regardless of weather you could wildshape into a creature with poison, humans and elves and the like do not have poison and wildshape is not naturall. You could find an exploit with this line i am sure, but its clear to me that it was never ment for wildshape. You still retain the subtype augmented humaniod in wildshape and this augmentation could be argued does not allow you to "naturally" have poison in a wildshape form. One has to wonder how this spell balances with spells like fireball that are the same level.
aelryinth 10-15-05, 05:43 PM	If the archer is in an AM field, his arrows regain their magic as soon as they leave the field. That would, I assume, include any burst effects. No Hunter's Mercy, but them's the breaks. I completely agree the precision damage is ridiculous...that's more a seige dmg-per-arrow-over-time device, not a machine gun kill-em-now effect. I would find an OoTB archer a terrifying prospect and his precision damage range was actually respectable... You hardly need to have Evil foes to get 5 burst effects going on each arrow. A 200 Hit point elemental is one round of fodder for an archer like that, probably using Manyshot to simply blow it apart. Protection from...Spells work on ALL summoned creatures, not just the alignment. They only grant the deflection bonuses against the alignment if the protection fails. Wind Walls are nice...if the druid doesn't bother to move, which allows the archer to withdraw and wait for the wind wall to go down from its 1 rd/level duration...or, assuming he has flight, to just fly above it. Manyshot IS a standard action. Quickened spells don't go off until you have the initiative. The Archer is much likely to have a higher Spot score then the Druid. And Spot distances outdoors in daylight are not -1 per 10', are they? I agree that a f/10 Order/10 build is hardly uber for an archer in a duelling situation. However, that hardly means the archer is helpless or impotent. The amount of damage an archer can inflict in just one round can be very, very sick...but he does have to be built to inflict it. A +1 Splitting Burst Burst Insertyourbane Bow with GMW and Burst Burst Burst Druidscorn Animal/Elementalbane Distance Accuracy arrows coupled with Manyshot and Hunter's Mercy, a good Str score could really ruin a Druid's day, assuming the person uses Deepwood Sniper levels for the enhanced threat range and stacking crit dmg. Figuring some fixed dmg bonuses of +20-+30 per arrow, and about +11d6 of normal dmg, +3d10x5 (5d10 with Sniper) if he crits, and 8 or 10 arrows a round with Haste, hit bonuses that are probably going to be +40-+50, and that Druid can very, very easily be a one round fricassee. And at quite some distance with some Far shot and the like. One full attack action, and anything the Druid can summon can be quite dead. Multiple things. It simply comes down to a lot of arrows being handy. ==Aelryinth
Kuroi Kenshi 10-16-05, 01:22 AM	Wind Walls are nice...if the druid doesn't bother to move, which allows the archer to withdraw and wait for the wind wall to go down from its 1 rd/level duration...or, assuming he has flight, to just fly above it. Manyshot IS a standard action. A druid can just make a wind wall globe around himself, cast obscuring mist inside the globe, summon a bunch of earth elementals, wildshape into an earth elemental, cast shapechange, then have his crew burrow and jump the archer from underground before the windwall or the mist goes down. The druid can then shift into something more dangerous upon surfacing. Or the druid can use that time inside the windwall to use other buffs and spells, or start using shapechange ability stacking cheese (getting 4 full actions a round via roper and the other 2 actions/round creature). It's not like a druid has nothing to do if his opponent is just waiting out the spell; it's quite the opposite. A druid will get more and more powerful with more prep time thanks to high level spells, and especially with the horrible brokenness that shapechange is. The Archer is much likely to have a higher Spot score then the Druid. And Spot distances outdoors in daylight are not -1 per 10', are they? I disagree. Any decent druid will have wisdom very high, if not as high as possible. Couple that with druids having 4 skillpoints/level and spot as a class skill, and it's logical that he's can easily have a better spot than a 2 skillpoints/level through 20 build that is going to have a much worse wisdom score, as well as having spot as a class skill for only 10 levels. Then there's the issue of druid requiring fewer stats (wisdom, con) than an archer (dex, con, str) to make the most out of their primary abilities. Thus a druid can more easily afford a higher intelligence, and push the skillpoint gap even further, though it's unnecessary. I agree that a f/10 Order/10 build is hardly uber for an archer in a duelling situation. However, that hardly means the archer is helpless or impotent. The amount of damage an archer can inflict in just one round can be very, very sick...but he does have to be built to inflict it. And this guy doesn't really have a build to fulfill an archer's potential. Hence the attitude on this thread.
aelryinth 10-16-05, 04:20 PM	And while he's uber buffing the archer can simply remove himself from the area until the buffs are done. And if he doesn't have a way of bringing down extraneous spells, he's just silly. An archer without flight capability is silly, those earth elementals are not a threat. THe real power of an archer build is the bow and the arrows...class abilities just make this more ridiculous. Read the dmg output above...thats without deepwood levels or Keen arrows. A wind wall has to be vertical, you can't make a globe out of it. If you cast obscurement and stay inside the globe, whats to prevent the archer from dropping a few dozen beads of force or necklace of fireball missiles on you and really ruining your day? You can't cast all those buff spells while you are merged with the earth. And whats really funny, is if you are using an optimized Druid build, your Str sucks, and the archer could pop an AM shell off an Item, walk in there, start grappling you with vastly superior BAB and then carve you into chunks...without your bow. That Above Bow and Arrow Combo I mentioned has range increments of 480', no penalties for range, and deals 1d8 + ~25, +11d6 per arrow, and has 8 or 10 arrows a round. DO the Math. The archer needs only ONE full attack action to utterly destroy that Druid, pretty much regardless of what form he bothers to take. Isn't 'It comes down to initiative' a wonderful thing? And who has the higher Dex and feats to blow on initative? If the archer doesn't suprise him, he can AM and go for a grapple kill. If he gets initiative, the Druid is hosed. ==Aelryinth
Kilo24 10-16-05, 04:22 PM	Heck, tell him that, in the interests of fairness, you'll do it at level 14. Use a bead of Karma to cast a Control Winds Spell- if he's within 720 ft, he'll need to make a fortitude save DC 30 to avoid being sucked up into it, taking 6d6 damage per round. Even if he doesn't make it, he won't be shooting any arrows at you any time soon. Then have fun spending the rest of your spell slots casting Call Lightning Storm (as well as energy substituted versions should he be immune to electricity) to toast him. At 15 bolts per spell, and a 3 hour long Control Winds, the law of averages is on your side, even if evasion is on his. If he gets the bright idea to fly over you to get into your 5 foot eye, cast a second Control Winds right above you. If you're actually feeling cocky, tell him that you'll beat him at 9th level. Bead of karma lets you use hurricane force winds (that make ranged attacks impossible.) Use your full retinue of Call Lightnings when Call Lightning Storm runs out. At level 20, this is dead easy. Shapechange into an amoeba. Let your animal companion be a nearsighted newt with chronic pneumonia. Play an anthropomorphic fly. Take an RP disadvantage by picking every flaw existing without the feats, VOP without permitting yourself wildshape, and speak in a lisp. Then drop an elemental or two on your enemy and watch him squeak as he dies. An unoptimized level 20 archer build against a Druid 20 isn't a matter of who'll win or lose- it's a matter of how many limbs the druid wants to cut off himself before crushing the archer utterly.
Kuroi Kenshi 10-16-05, 06:14 PM	Oops, I confused cylinder with globe. Ah well. Either way, as mentioned there are better ways to shut down an archer than just a level 3 spell. Wall of stone would work pretty well offensively or defensively, as has already been mentioned. Or repel wood, repel metal or stone, etc work well. An archer withdrawing to wait out buffs isn't a really valid tactic either when a druid has a way of easily finding someone's location - in this case greater scrying. If the target was lucky and made his save, the druid could opt to cast speak with animals, summon an eagle or a more unobtrusive exceptional sight creature, have him scout the area, circle around, then report. A druid could even flee, use greater scrying, then choose the right time to attack, or determine if he'll have enough time to start up long spells like elemental swarm and control weather. And yeah, earth elementals probably won't be a problem, but it was just an illustration of one of many ways that a druid can very effectively deal with an opponent. And don't forget, a druid can get a ton of magical items too :p He could just as easily afford a wild fortified dragonhide suit of armor and a wild shield that collectively covers every energy resistance on it, if desired, among other enhancements and items that help to reduce or negate physical and elemental damage. And, once again, a druid can always instead shapechange into something that is just plain immune to most damage types and is immune to critical hits. The bottom line is that a druid simply has more ways of effectively dealing with opposition, and thus requires more resources to effectively counter. A druid also has more ways of avoiding, surviving, and finding opposition, so he can more easily put himself in the most advantageous position, and has built-in resources for countering others. In this case, it's a druid vs an unoptimized archer build, which has far fewer dimensions than the former. So, once again, the attitude on the thread is understandable given the context.
Leewei 10-16-05, 09:30 PM	Obscuring mist or plant growth (to produce lots of heavy undergrowth) are both nice, cheap ways of stopping archers. The druid can then use earth elemental wildshape and summon swarms to deal with the archer. Swarms of Diminuitive creatures are immune to melee and targeted spell effects. A Huge air elemental could engulf the archer with its whirlwind form and effectively stop him from firing. Personally, I like the idea of getting full cover, hitting the area near the archer with entangle, then using summon swarm to get bats. The archer takes 1d6 and bleeds at 1hp per round thereafter. If the archer lacks any self-healing ability, the druid can then use any number of tricks to escape while the archer marches on to -10 HP at 1 point per round.
batstek 10-16-05, 10:51 PM	Yeah, I really don't see how the Archer has much of a chance. Wildshape for something immune to Piercing and Crits isn't that hard to pull off, Natural Spell lets them still cast while shifted. From there, the Ftr/OotBI is left the 1d6 elemental damage that his bow could have done or maybe Bane damage from the weapon with a lucky guess on what the shape would be into, and pretty much no other option. He could wait for the buffs to wear off while hiding, but that's not an efficient or likely way to win since Wild Shape lasts so long. There's not really any way that a Ftr/OotBI would have the Use Magic Device skill to pull off any spells that could restrict the Druid. I really can't see a way short of horrible playing on the druid's part that would let an archer like that win.
Moon-Lancer 10-16-05, 11:20 PM	I agree. a druid could cast warp wood on the bow. byby archer. If the archer is warrior based, the druid could cast a really big thorn wall spell in a sphear like shape centerd on the archer. The druid could then do area spells like flame strike untill the targit is dead.
CompleteSatori 10-16-05, 11:46 PM	Venomfire probably wont work. at the end of the spell discription it says: "This spell has no effect on creatures that do not naturally produce poison." So regardless of weather you could wildshape into a creature with poison, humans and elves and the like do not have poison and wildshape is not naturall. You could find an exploit with this line i am sure, but its clear to me that it was never ment for wildshape. You still retain the subtype augmented humaniod in wildshape and this augmentation could be argued does not allow you to "naturally" have poison in a wildshape form. As a druid your type changes when you Wildshape, so a Fleshraker Druid is considered an Animal, and since he gains the Special Attacks of any animal he Wildshapes into, Venomfire works, not just RAW, but intent as well, and specifically outlined.
ZER0 10-16-05, 11:48 PM	This is wonderful. I actually never thought I would get this much info. Unfortunately, the player who was going to run the archer chickened out. Still, now I have many reason to play a Druid in one of my next campaigns. Thanks a lot to everybody for this info. I appreciate every last bit of it.
aelryinth 10-17-05, 12:28 AM	mmm. Sorry. Unless the druid is already IN those forms, with all those buffs, AND knows where the archer is, it comes down to an initiative roll. And even then there's the AM field back up grapple and kill which the druid can only run from. As for healing...what, archers don't carry potions now? Warp Wood, a close range spell? If the druid gets that close, he's already dead. A wall of Thorns can only be assembled in blocks. Armored AC of 25 means you take no dmg. And since Forcecage 'prisons' are so popular here, any good build must of course have blink or other effects to get out of them...and we already talked about having flight for the archer. Immunity to crits does nothing for burst and energy damage. Those still go off when you crit. Someone never heard of broadheads or blunt arrows? Pierce dmg only? what? Untargeted mass area spells? retreat out of range. This archer can snipe from 1200' away...the druid isn't going to be able to see them, and can happily waste all of those bolt spells. The bane effects are as much or more to get rid of summoned creatures as for butchering the druid if goes into elemental or animal forms. IF that control winds has an eye, it takes only one round to kill the druid at the middle of it. Come down from on high and fricasee him. Bow could be made of ivory. Composites are not mostly wood. Waaaaayyy too many broad assumptions here. Far as I'm concerned, its an initiative roll, with 600,000 gp of possible alternatives to the archer...and an AM grapple and kill for a finisher if need be. But, we can around and around this. I agree this isn't an OPtimized build, but the power of just the standard gear available to an archer means that the Druid is in great danger even without it. If he isn't HUNTING the archer, he's got a problem being properly prepared...his forms aren't going to save him, and he probably won't have the anti-missile spells memorized. The Archer just needs his bow and some specialized arrows. ==Aelryinth
Moon-Lancer 10-17-05, 01:21 AM	"This spell has no effect on creatures that do not naturally produce poison." CompleteSatori its pretty clear that wildshape is not Natural. You do get the type of animal, but the subtype interferes with this. Besides, its in a yanti book. I think this line is refuting that the yanti could use this with his bite attack, but a polymorphed or wildshaped creature could not because the augmented humanoid subtype, (regardless of animal type or not). The last line of the spell could have said "This spell has no effect on magical poison, or poison applied to weapons and attacks" but it didn’t. it said "creatures that do not naturally produce poison" I’m afraid venom fire does not work for a druid that does not already have a venom attack to begin with. sadly their is no raw, only interpretation of the given line. I am willing to bet that most dms will not allow that spell after reading the last line. So why do people list it as an option when any dm with a sound mind would not allow this spell. many people talk about venomfire but how many dms actually allow that spell as its written? If i was a dm i would just about allow anything. But in terms of venom fire, i must quate a master of shakespear. "The line must be drawn here, and no further!!!!" ---------------------------------------------------------- "Immunity to crits does nothing for burst and energy damage. Those still go off when you crit." I do not believe this to be true. It says on a successful critical hit not roll. It cant really be called successful if you cant crit the creature. If you assume the archer has his bow already out, I think its to fair to assume that a druid is already wildshaped. In a forest a druid would win via forest fold, without contest. I think that in other environments, it could be challenging, and any party has a chance of winning. Bows could be made of ivory, but I don’t remember what book that was in. Unless you had an actual material that you found that’s in d&d, i don’t think saying it’s made of ivory is going to counteract warp wood. If the druid is in shadow dragon form (dragon wildshape dracomicon), it has 50 concealment. It can cast forest fold and hide within its own shadow. This would allow the dragon to get next to the archer. Guess what. Wood warp baby. It would be really had for a archer to find the druid if he were in Shadow dragon form with forest fold. A druid can muster a +30 to hide without breaking a sweet. Lets say the druid gets a 40 to hide including his roll.. Most classes are going to be hard pressed to meet that even with a roll of 20. Your archer has a 50% chance to miss. I believe this percentage pulls the win in the druids favor, regardless of initiative. An archer class that isent a monk isent going to beable to move very fast, but a druid with dragon wildshape can muster speeds of 120 feet a move action. Combine that with mobile spell casting (cadv) and you have a crazzy fast druid that can cast spells on the fly (pun intended) a shadow dragon can move 150 feet, cast a spell and move another 150 feet. If he needed to get away he could run at a speed of 600 feet a round. Mostlylikely your archer does not have the ranks in spot to accomidate for his range. 1 XXXXXX 3 improved initative 6 natural spell 9 mobile spell casting 12 dragon wildshape 15 Quick wildshape 18 Oaken Resilience
Master of the Wild 10-17-05, 05:34 AM	Let me think... The arrows first have to hit, don't they? Now let's assume the archer has a BAB +20, a +5 bow and dex 30. That's +20+5+10=+35 on the attack. Now, there's probably someone who can calculate the combination needed for AC 55 or 56. Probably involing a monk's belt, bracers of armour, gloves of dexterity, periapt of wisdom, a read book of wisdom upping (manual of wisdom? or what it's called), ring of deflection and a high AC wild shape form. And a quickened barkskin isn't too bad to add. Shouldn't be too hard to fly over him without too much damage. Hell, what about those trigger-at-a-specific-moment from complete arcane? But then again, this is turning into a 'Master of Arrow Knowledge' versus 'Master of Druid Wisdom' topic. This should be a 'inventarize what are are the options - decide what are the cons and pros - make your decision which one is better'.
Moon-Lancer 10-17-05, 11:34 AM	i agree. the druid can be taken to a sick extreem. Like venom fire if the dm allows it, or green bound summoning, But think a druid has enuff power for anything if the dracanomicon, compleat books, and possibly book of exalted deeds are used.
Tempest Stormwind 10-17-05, 11:56 AM	i agree. the druid can be taken to a sick extreem. Like venom fire if the dm allows it, or green bound summoning, But think a druid has enuff power for anything if the dracanomicon, compleat books, and possibly book of exalted deeds are used. Druids have enough power from just the PHB and MM. By the way, you're wrong on the crit-effect thing. EVEN IF THE CREATURE IS IMMUNE TO CRITICAL HITS, you roll to confirm. This is for reasons of, say, the Burst effects on the weapon, which does do more damage, even though the weapon is not multiplied. Take a look in the DMG's magic weapons section, and the section talking about critical hits in combat.
Judging Eagle 10-17-05, 12:17 PM	It should also be noted that precision damage won't trigger on the OoTBI's ranged precision attack if the target is immune to critical hits (like... an elemental). Personally I'd go for a mixed bag of air/earth elementals. Earth to glide/sneak and grapple and air to harrass/keep mobile/whirlwind the archer into the air and make him keep falling 20d6 every air elemental's round (grapple, lift, drop; repeat). The ability to start adding even more and more and more books keeps pushing the favour into the druid's corner imo due to increased spell repetoire, increased casting options (like mobile spell casting) etc..
Moon-Lancer 10-17-05, 12:56 PM	ah. so i must have been wrong about the burst thingy. I dont think its too big a deal. A druid, before combat could cast immunity to X from dracanomicon to cover all the burst weapon types. that may be all your level 6 spells, but its a good defence. I am willing to agree that ether class/whatever have a good chance of beating echother depending on the circumstance. The druid would be in a bad curcmstance if the archer knew of the druid, but the druid did not know of the archer. But thats like saying the druid could win if the combat started with the deepwood sniper backed into a cave and flanked by a wall with nowhare to run.
Kuroi Kenshi 10-17-05, 01:47 PM	Waaaaayyy too many broad assumptions here. Yeah, true, though for both sides of the issue. At this point it's just fun. ah. so i must have been wrong about the burst thingy. I dont think its too big a deal. A druid, before combat could cast immunity to X from dracanomicon to cover all the burst weapon types. that may be all your level 6 spells, but its a good defence. Heh, and as said before, a druid doesn't even need spells to be immune to crits and the burst damage. One can very easily afford 10 energy resistance or more of every energy type plus fortification and high AC bonuses on their armor and shield at level 20. And as recently mentioned, it wouldn't be too hard to get a near unhittable AC using the right armors/items and a wildshape form with enough natural armor bonus, if necessary. The druid would be in a bad curcmstance if the archer knew of the druid, but the druid did not know of the archer. But thats like saying the druid could win if the combat started with the deepwood sniper backed into a cave and flanked by a wall with nowhare to run. Yeah, who is more likely to know who is coming, and who can track who: A high wisdom druid who has trackless step, scrying, one thousand faces, greater scrying, animal messengers/friends, commune with nature, and so forth, or a 2 skillpoint/level warrior? :p
HamHam 10-17-05, 02:02 PM	Hmmn, a lot of these tactics seem weak if the Archer has an anti-magic shield. Won't that even cancel a wildshape? But not your animal companion.
aelryinth 10-17-05, 04:05 PM	Said animal companion is going to get dead very quickly, so a moot point. One round at the outside, if he can even reach the archer (unlikely). And I believe it would be hedged out by an AM field, since it's an enhanced creature...could be wrong tho! Said summoned elementals are going to get dead very quickly...we are already assuming the archer can fly, and they aren't going to be able to hold a blinker in a grapple. Earth elems are just useless. The archer does over 300 pts of dmg a round with a full attack action, and he's not going to miss an elemental. We now have the fun part of assuming the druid casts all the elemental res spells all the time, or has spent the money to have all the elemental res spells all the time, and heavy fortification bracers +8. Oi, right. With Zen archery stacking with Dex mod, bane and scorn effects in place, that archer can be standing easily on a +50 to 60 to hit bonus...with no reductions for range. unless the druid is optimizing for AC, there's going to be some holes. And the archer isn't optimizing anything but his bow skills. As for the Dragon form...that speed is assuming the dragon is flying, where there's not a lot of shadows. Druid's in the air, showing himself! Weee...thunkthunkthunkthunkthunkthunk dead druid. At about a thousand feet away. Or just fly up to him after a damaging salvo, activate AM item, grapple, and ride the bastard down to the ground. You've got the hit points to spare, and he won't when he loses his Con bonus for loss of form... And of course, if this was Sniper optimized, one shot would probably be all it took with a Mercy and burst effects. As for tactics and ground...we're talking a fighter here, who should have the brains to get the battle at least on even terrain. I'm sure I could think of some ways to lure the Druid out, from setting the forest on fire to just slaughtering every rare animal in his favorite preserve. The Order guy should have his 23 ranks in Spot and a +20 Spot item, simply because he has to shoot so much stuff at range...and a ring of Invis keeps him unseen unless the druid is right on top of him. The druid has a LOT of bases he has to cover to make himself immune. That likely involves waiting a day and making his spell selection very different from rote...and even then, doesn't guarantee the archer doesn't simply adjust his own coverages. So, eh, Initiative and range! ==Aelryinth ==Aelryinth
eRaz0r 10-17-05, 06:07 PM	There aren't any items that cast AMF. The OOTBI is out of luck there. IF the GM allows such an item, then perhaps he might also allow the druid some Claws of Uberness that rend the archer at 2000 feet range. If an item is available to the Archer (ring of invisibility for example) then it is available to the Druid as well. I'm not saying it's a fait accompli, but please don't be so arrogant to suggest that the Archer will always have the upper hand, or will be able to easily gain it. Most druids I know will spend as much time in wildshape as possible. Which of the thousands of animals in the forest is the druid ? Youir +43 ranks in spot won't help you decide which creature to shoot. Unless we're talking an arena, it won't be whomever wins initiative -it'll be whomever gains surprise, and if we assume that each of them is searching for the other, I think the druid will win, because he has detection spells on his side. But even if the druid is unaware of the archers' desire to kill him, he has a slight advantage in that he's nearly impossible to track. The Archer is going to leave a trace (he's not a ranger/OOTBI, but a F/OOTBI, remember). Things get very different when you plunk them down 250' away from each other in an empty arena and say "3, 2, 1 - fight!" Then, however, it's just initiative.
OGS-Remix 10-17-05, 07:04 PM	Said animal companion is going to get dead very quickly, so a moot point. One round at the outside, if he can even reach the archer (unlikely). And I believe it would be hedged out by an AM field, since it's an enhanced creature...could be wrong tho! Said summoned elementals are going to get dead very quickly...we are already assuming the archer can fly, and they aren't going to be able to hold a blinker in a grapple. Earth elems are just useless. The archer does over 300 pts of dmg a round with a full attack action, and he's not going to miss an elemental. Animal companions would not be stopped by an Anti-magic field. Also, you say the archer can fly, this better be a natural form of flight because your magic items wouldn't work either. Same goes for your ring of blinking as well. You either have AMF or you don't. You can give the archer his magical bow bonuses because they leave the AMF and suddenly regain their magical properties; but I still don't see how you're going to get around the variety of wind spells that a druid can put up to negate all ranged attacks.
Kuroi Kenshi 10-17-05, 07:32 PM	There aren't any items that cast AMF. Well, you could plop 200k GP on a greater ring of spellstoring, I think.
Leewei 10-17-05, 08:48 PM	As for healing...what, archers don't carry potions now? In a contest between two PCs generated solely to smack each other around, this happens more often than you'd expect. ;)
aelryinth 10-17-05, 08:54 PM	I'm not assuming he has AMF up all the time. I'm assuming he has it up when he needs to have it up...which is if the Druid is silly enough to get into grapple range. And if he stays at a distance, the archer doesn't mind that, either. Spot effectively sees through Disguises, too, doncha know? And wildshape is merely a disguise the druid probably doesn't have many ranks in. Hey, now, in addition to all his resist every element things, we are gonna assume he has a slot free for invisibility! Great! Not only wildshaped all the time, but invisible too! And of course the Archer can't spring for anti-detect items for himself... Am I saying the Archer would win every time? Of course not. But I'm also saying that he's not going to fold over and die, because in ONE ROUND he can kill that Druid flat dead if given ANY opening...and that's with much less optimization then this Druid seems to be undertaking. ==Aelryinth
eRaz0r 10-17-05, 09:13 PM	Well, you could plop 200k GP on a greater ring of spellstoring, I think. That would work - provided of course you could find someone willing to store that AMF in there for you... in which case the Druid could also have a friendly rogue place high-level traps around his domain - or some other contrivance. Is this a comparison between Druid 20 and F10/OOTBI 10 or their items ?
batstek 10-17-05, 09:49 PM	But I'm also saying that he's not going to fold over and die, because in ONE ROUND he can kill that Druid flat dead if given ANY opening...and that's with much less optimization then this Druid seems to be undertaking. ==Aelryinth I'm confused. How does a Ftr10/OotBI10 pull off killing a Druid20 in one round?
Moon-Lancer 10-17-05, 10:25 PM	he dosent aelryinth is talking about a build that he never posted. The numbers seem to change but only by alittle bit. It involves a deepwood sniper, (witch is 3.0, and if thats going to be your game, then a druid could also take things from that book (masters of the wild). If you want to argue that your build is better then a druid, please post it with the relevent eq. You keep talking about amf but thier is no magic iteam that gives that ability. the only other iteam that could is 200,000 gold and is a ring of spell storeing. That still means you cant cast the spell. Another 200,000 for the weapon. Another 100,000 for armor. Thats alot of gold. I think its clear that a druid would own a fighter 10/oobi 10. If you think your build is better and could win. Please post it. I shale post a fun druid as well if you like. One thats based off eq, another one based off vop perhaps.
Kilo24 10-17-05, 11:34 PM	mmm. Sorry. Unless the druid is already IN those forms, with all those buffs, AND knows where the archer is, it comes down to an initiative roll. And even then there's the AM field back up grapple and kill which the druid can only run from. Untargeted mass area spells? retreat out of range. This archer can snipe from 1200' away...the druid isn't going to be able to see them, and can happily waste all of those bolt spells. IF that control winds has an eye, it takes only one round to kill the druid at the middle of it. Come down from on high and fricasee him. Waaaaayyy too many broad assumptions here. Far as I'm concerned, its an initiative roll, with 600,000 gp of possible alternatives to the archer...and an AM grapple and kill for a finisher if need be. ==Aelryinth I would say that if the archer could kill the druid in one round, and that the duel started off wild west style, then your points would be more valid. But you're assuming those. If the druid doesn't drop in a round or wins initiative, you've got an immunity to ranged attacks to any attacks not right above- period- with control winds. You can make the eye 5 ft to stop him from getting in by land, and, chances are, you'll be able to get a second control winds up covering that exact spot before he's able to activate his flying item, fly over to you, and deal enough damage to kill you- all assuming he makes his DC Fortitude 30 saving throw to avoid being caught up in the wind or he starts 810 feet away from you and can cover that distance very quickly, plus the minimum or 40 ft or so straight up. You will be immune to ranged attacks unless he gets you right within an AMF and shoots at you point blank without any magical boosts. As for the AMF, grappling will kill you slowly if it succeeds. Chances are, your animal companion will take opposition to this and will kill the ranger rolling on the floor quicker than you will die while slowly taking unarmed damage from an archery build. If he's already killed your animal companion, you couldn't see the grapple coming in time to use an air walk, and he's also thrown in a sumo grappling build along with a focus on archery, you're probably going to escape by the law of averages before he deals the hundred fifty or so hit points that you have. The archer can snipe from 1200' away? Good- that's exactly the range of your call lightning storm (assuming that you're not casting it with bead of karma.) And you've got a wind wall or control winds- he hasn't. If the druid is ambushed by this archer played as he seems intended to be, he'll probably survive the one or two arrows of precision shot that follow. (Assuming that the archer will attempt to use what he spent ten levels getting is probable.) If the build is executed well, then a player could probably rise above his meager guidelines and have a small chance of winning despite poor design. If this was one of the truly evil archer builds that will normally take out your reservoir of hitpoints in one go (remember, if you can't buff, he can't either with hunter's mercy or stored spells) in a wild west type of encounter, it's a matter of winning initiative. If he wins, you're almost certainly dead. If you win, you'll (probably) want to become immune to his primary weapon with Control Winds. Barring a Mordy's Disjunction, AMF, or somehow getting great melee abilities and repeatedly making Fortitude DC 30 save, he can't touch you and you can pick him off with your retinue of spells. If he does blow the money on rings of greater spell storing, you're probably prepared for his individual build as well and have specific tactics against him. Am I saying the Archer would win every time? Of course not. But I'm also saying that he's not going to fold over and die, because in ONE ROUND he can kill that Druid flat dead if given ANY opening...and that's with much less optimization then this Druid seems to be undertaking. Any opening? Not quite. Any opening that he can make while taking a full round action without moving more than 5 ft, you mean. And which archer are we talking about here? The fighter 10/OotBI 10 who waves around his 5d8+ 1 arrow damage? Or the well built Deepwood Sniper using Hunter's Mercy actually capable of doing greater than 100 points of damage in a round? And which of those would you call more optimized than a Druid 20 just using an intelligent feat or two and some PHB spells?
Kuroi Kenshi 10-18-05, 01:35 AM	We now have the fun part of assuming the druid casts all the elemental res spells all the time, or has spent the money to have all the elemental res spells all the time, and heavy fortification bracers +8. Oi, right. Are you saying a druid doesn't have 700k GP to spend as well? Btw to get energy resistance 10 to each damage type on a piece of armor or a shield, it takes 90k GP. Though it's costs slightly more than the cost of 50 +1 "x"ing (flaming etc) of each kind arrows, it would cost much less than it'd take to put on a ton of burst enhancements. Spot effectively sees through Disguises, too, doncha know? And wildshape is merely a disguise the druid probably doesn't have many ranks in. I've never heard of completely changing your form far beyond the scope of alter self being equivalent to using the disguise skill, nor have I seen anything about seeing something's true form when polymorphed, shapechanged, and so on using spot. Nor have I seen anything about the disguise skill and wildshape in the same section or sentence. But if you know of the source and page number, I'd like to know. With Zen archery stacking with Dex mod... They do not stack; rather wisdom is used instead of dexterity. Check complete warrior again if you don't believe me. I'm not sure on the bonus from scorn, but with bane, dex 34, +5 bow, +20 BAB, and greater weapon focus (going with the ftr10/OotB10 build here), that comes out to +41 AB. Let's say scorn gives a +5 to hit (I honestly don't know as I can't find it but I'll be generous), so that's +46 AB. So, target AC will be 66 to be hittable only on a 20. With a +5 wild large dragonhide shield (7 AC), a +5 suit of elven darkleaf mechanus gear armor (15 AC), +5 ring of protection, a monk's belt (+13 AC), and a +2 dex item, that's 51 base AC. Now wildshape using draconic wildshape and you're looking at a natural armor boost of +12-13. For even more AC, one could splurge and throw on one or two +5 defending dragontooth armor spikes. If one really wanted to splurge, throw on the deflecting enhancement on each one, too, just to have another 2 lines of defense in case the opponent rolls a natural 20. Then there's the alternative of saving a bunch of GP by dropping the wild enhancements, not using a feat from dragonomicon, forgetting wildshape entirely, and using the shapechange spell to get +21 natural armor from a form like solar. So AC can go into the range of 64-72, then 69-82 with an extra armor spike or two. So, good luck hitting even if you can find a way to get another +4-14 on your attack bonus for that +50-60 AB if the druid really doesn't want to be hit. And of course you'll need more more if scorn gives anything less than +5 to hit. And my AC-optimization-fu, druid-fu, and shapechange-fu is pretty weak, so it's likely a higher AC is attainable.
ksbsnowowl 10-18-05, 02:11 AM	With Zen archery stacking with Dex mod... They do not stack; rather wisdom is used instead of dexterity. Check complete warrior again if you don't believe me. I'm not sure on the bonus from scorn, but with bane, dex 34, +5 bow, +20 BAB, and greater weapon focus (going with the ftr10/OotB10 build here), that comes out to +41 AB. Let's say scorn gives a +5 to hit (I honestly don't know as I can't find it but I'll be generous), so that's +46 AB.This is the second time he's mentioned Dex and Wis stacking today... I think he's remembering the 3.0 OotBI, which did allow such a thing if the archer already had the Zen Archery feat before it got the feat for free from the class. It only worked within 30 feet, however. So, target AC will be 66 to be hittable only on a 20. With a +5 wild large dragonhide shield (7 AC), a +5 suit of elven darkleaf mechanus gear armor (15 AC), +5 ring of protection, a monk's belt (+13 AC), and a +2 dex item, that's 51 base AC. Elven Darkleaf Mechanus Gear Armor? That would be a sight - geared armor made from leaves.....yeah. But there is nothing specifically prohibiting it, so I'll let it slide. You cannot, however, gain the benefits of the Monk's belt while wearing armor or wielding a shield. Let me give it a try... Assuming a starting Wisdom of 18 (then +5 levels, +6 item, +5 tome) = 34 (+12 mod) 10 (base) + 19 (natural - young adult shadow dragon) + 5 (natural enhancement [barkskin]) +13 (Monk's Belt) +5 (Ring of Protection) +2 (Dex) +3 (+6 gloves of Dex) = 57 If I instead used the shield and armor you mentioned (giving both the Wild property), the +13 from the monk's belt is replaced with a total of +22, but we'll assume we can only get +2 max dex bonus, for a total armor class of: 10 (base) + 19 (natural - young adult shadow dragon) + 5 (natural enhancement [barkskin]) +15 (armor) +7 (shield) +5 (Ring of Protection) +2 (Dex) = 63
aelryinth 10-18-05, 02:14 AM	Did you people read the posts at all? I repeatedly said the Order ability was useless except for two key points...The Wis Archery buffs and the use bow in combat stuff. Ranged precision...? What? When did I ever say this was going to get used? HE ONLY NEEDS A GOOD BOW AND ARROWS. That's it. Really. The Bow I posted was +1..Burst Burst Splitting Distance. Getting an Item that can cast GMW, or Oil that does it, or a friend to do it, wouldn't be hard. Then the arrows. +1 Burst Burst Burst Elementalbane Animalbane Druidscorn. Add in something else if you like. Vary them about blunt, slashing, piercing. Add in a bunch of other just bursting arrows, or just Scorn/Bane arrows. Use Bane arrows straight for any summoned beasties. Distance and accuracy if you want range. I'm assuming that the Order fellow is going to have a 30ish Str by one method or another (or the ability to use Wis for damage, probably better), a Dex at least as good, and a pretty good Wisdom skill (30+ if doing dmg AND accuracy). Between Bane/Scorn, Elemental Damage, Str bonus, Enhancement bonus, this archer is going to be doing 1-6 +~25 damage per arrow...+anywhere from 5d6 to 11d6 dmg. This increases by +10d10 if he scores a crit. His To-Hit is somewhere in the neighborhood of +50 to +60. With Boots of speed, he can get Haste as needed. Splitting doubles the arrows. This is WITHOUT Mercy or crit increasing/generating stuff. 10 arrows with a full attack action. With the correct mix of arrows and Oil of Accuracy or whatever on it. Just the bow and arrows. An Average of 1d6 + 42 with ONLY +5d6 from elemental damage, going to +51 against a Druid or animal/elemental companion, +60 against an animal or elemental-formed druid. If there's a crit, we have a blowup for ANOTHER +55 dmg for that arrow. 10 Arrows a freaking round like this. And this archer doesn't have a chance? Hello? This is just gear. The Sniper looks much, much nastier since crits are more frequent, but the basic premise doesn't change...the Bow and the right Arrows and a lot of attacks are going to wipe the floor with that druid with exactly ONE full attack action. I'll trade a 3d6 lightning bolt every round I can swill a potion to ignore at 1200 feet for this every time. And if he's got his winds up, I'll either head for the eye or just retreat until the winds die down...and they will. he has to customize one thing...Bane on the arrows. The rest is just routine. Whereas the Druid seems to have to memorize a plethora of spells he just wouldn't take under normal circumstances. Without the uberness of the sniper, against a Druid he's bought the arrows to kill, and that's ALL...he's doing sending out ten arrows a round that deal an average of 55 pts of dmg per arrow that connects. In one round of arrow fire, JUST using a bow and arrows and some Zen archery, the druid could be absolute Toast. and he still has the backup AMF/grapple thing which will hose the druid if the Archer has anything resembling a decent str. Heck, the Archer could be wearing full plate +5 with Armor spikes! Get off the Precision Damage shtick. We are talking about a bow, arrows, and some 'standard' gear on the boards...a Ring of Blinking, something to help fly, something to block divination spells, maybe a ring of invis, and a throwaway item with AMF...or maybe a ring of spell storing he can slap on if there is need. ==Aelryinth
J-A-R-N-O 10-18-05, 03:26 AM	If the archer wins initiative, is able to see the druid, and neither had time to buff before combat, the archer probably wins in one turn. But there are many ifs. Otherwise, two words: Repel wood :D I don't think there are any special materials that can replace wooden sections of the arrow. And if there are, they are likely metal, which means Repel metal and stone. And repel wood has a duration of 1min/lvl, which is more than enough for the druid to kill the archer, so waiting for the spell to wear off only generates a dead archer. Could you tell me, how can you get Wis to damage? Especially with Ftr 10/OotBI 10? And as stated before, Zen archery replaces Dex to hit with ranged attacks, it does not stack. I would be interested to get real calculations of what the attack bonus of the archer is. Just assuming it's around +50 or +60 is silly. It would be good to know, so we can see if the druid can mach it with his/her AC. And the druid can also cast AMF. If it comes to it, he can cast it and share it with his/her animal companion. Now they are both pretty much immune to most of your damage, which comes from magic. Then the druid just sends his/her animal companion to attack you, as it's very likely it's better at melee than you. But atleast it gives the druid time to go hiding somewhere where he can buff when the AMF runs off.
batstek 10-18-05, 03:34 AM	HE ONLY NEEDS A GOOD BOW AND ARROWS. That's it. Really. We heard ya. The Bow I posted was +1..Burst Burst Splitting Distance. Getting an Item that can cast GMW, or Oil that does it, or a friend to do it, wouldn't be hard. Then the arrows. +1 Burst Burst Burst Elementalbane Animalbane Druidscorn. Add in something else if you like. Vary them about blunt, slashing, piercing. Add in a bunch of other just bursting arrows, or just Scorn/Bane arrows. Use Bane arrows straight for any summoned beasties. Distance and accuracy if you want range. The elemental damage from the burst is pretty much ignored, since the resistances to those elements cost slightly more to put on armor or a shield than the burst damage does. Only one type of Bane would work at a time, so that isn't too big a deal. That's assuming the Druid didn't pick a plant to shift into for the immense camoflage in a forest setting that would give him. That's also assuming he didn't just shapechange into a War Troll or Iron Golem or something. Between Bane/Scorn, Elemental Damage, Str bonus, Enhancement bonus, this archer is going to be doing 1-6 +~25 damage per arrow...+anywhere from 5d6 to 11d6 dmg. This increases by +10d10 if he scores a crit. His To-Hit is somewhere in the neighborhood of +50 to +60. The crits likely won't be an issue, seeing as how he'd likely be immune to them. Therefore, you're just dealing with the 1d8+Enhancement Bonus+Potentially Strength (though not likely if he hides as far off as is likely)+Potentially Bane+Scorn. Significantly less than earlier noted. And this archer doesn't have a chance? Hello? If the Druid and Archer start off in locations where they can both see one another, and they don't have any buffing time, and the Archer gets quite lucky with rolls, and the Druid doesn't spend the cash on fortification, then the archer has a pretty good chance of winning. It'll likely win init, and then it'll likely be over. That's a lot of IF's. Some of them imply that the druid wasn't as smart with his money as the archer. Some of them rely on situational things, which could screw either duelist. If they get buffing time to apply oil of accuracy to the arrows and/or shapechange as they will, then the Archer is slightly screwed. This is just gear. The Sniper looks much, much nastier since crits are more frequent, but the basic premise doesn't change...the Bow and the right Arrows and a lot of attacks are going to wipe the floor with that druid with exactly ONE full attack action. Irrelevant. Talking about a different build. he has to customize one thing...Bane on the arrows. The rest is just routine. Whereas the Druid seems to have to memorize a plethora of spells he just wouldn't take under normal circumstances. Disagree. It makes no sense to prepare a character for a duel and not prepare it to duel a character. Seems like a waste of time. and he still has the backup AMF/grapple thing which will hose the druid if the Archer has anything resembling a decent str. Heck, the Archer could be wearing full plate +5 with Armor spikes! Too many conjuration spells have no SR and aren't touched by an AMF. Flashflood and Glacier would own an archer. And regardless, that +5 full plate is a waste of money if you're just using it to grapple in an AMF. Anyway, with all the variables involved, it's difficult to say 100% of the time the druid would win. However, my money would rest with the druid more often than not.
Prominence 10-18-05, 08:20 AM	Ok, just give the druid a retributive amulet and starmantle cloak. proceed to ignore (assuming one applies then the next) 25% the damage and returning 50% of it (or 25% depending on your DM). (186,000 gp) BoED. There, that solves the stupid 'kill you in one turn auto-crit 5 times' thing. Now the druid is assured a turn, in which he wins this rediculous 3 page exercise. Really, there's a tons of ways to avoid straight damage at level 20. Intelligent ring of blink/ improvised invis, retributive amulet, starmantle cloak, etc. If it comes down to the ranger using an AMF, the druid's animal companion is by far stronger (a good bear will likely have a higher grapple check, for instance), and the druid isn't god-awful-weak either. edit: The druid will not lose in a 1on1 mid-west style duel in round 1, if it goes into AMF, the druid wins with the animal companion anyway. The druid will win any hide war in the forest or in town, as the druid has much better skills for it that a fighter 10 / 10 ootbi doesn't, along with summons that can find him much more easily. Even if he doesn't, he won't die in the surprise round. A druid can stay wildshaped all day at Lv20 (5 uses, 20 hours each), so there's no reason he wouldn't just stay like that. Thus, even more of your damage gets negated.
michael_noah 10-18-05, 11:29 AM	Here is the druid's AC. If you are playing in some arena where the druid is not allowed to have buff's up at the beginning that last all day long... well... that's dumb. Now, show us how your archer gets in the area of a +50-60 to hit, because that's what he needs to reliably hit the druid. Go first. Whatever. Round one the druid makes all your bow attacks impossible. Without really trying. Oh, and it's all core. Dex = 8 + 6 + 5 = 19: +4 AC Wis = 18 + 5 + 6 + 5 = 34 Monks Belt 1 + 12 = 13 AC Bracers of Armor +8 AC Treant +13 NA -2 size = 11 AC Barkskin +5 NA Dusty rose ioun stone: +1 insight RoP +5: +5 deflection AC: 57 I see: BAB: 20 Dex: 12 Bow: +5 Maybe there's a bane?: +2 = 39 Perhaps this "scorn" property adds a lot. This is a situation specifically tailored to the archer, and he still needs to roll somewhat well to win.
Moon-Lancer 10-18-05, 12:03 PM	aelryinth. Please post your build. I highly disbelieve many of the things you say are possible with the gold you need to spend, and wis to damage?... um yeah. You can choose any archer build you want that is 3.5. You may use deep wood sniper and peerless archer as well. If there are any other classes you want from 3.0 I don’t think it should be a problem, but ask first so i know that that book is included (yum more spells). Both characters know of eachother. They have one day to prepare before hand. They can be buffed with ability/spell that is 1 hour / level. They must prepare that spell the day of the fight. The logic behind this is that in a normal game, the character is going to have these buffs at the start of the day anyway, because they last all day at level 20. Anything 10 min/ level or lower is going to have to be buffed after combat starts. Any spell that lasts 1 day/ level may be prepared the day beforehand, but it must only be the day before hand (no 20 days of spell lists). Combat should possibly be in a forest. But if you would like to ask for a different setting, please ask. My logic behind this is most druids I make love the forest and try to spend most of their time in said forest. You may prepare any spells or traps ahead of time in the given forest location if they are still functioning the next day of the fight (example Spellstaff). If any of these terms are unsatisfactory, Please let me know. Also let me know if fighting in a forest is satisfactory. This wont be a real d&d combat fight unless you wish it. Its more of a comparison of abilities so it can be easly seen what ability counters what ability so its less of a knowledge war on the spot. This way it can be seen the actual abilities and tactics one druid might use and vise versa. Also so we know said combos are possible Post your stats, how you got them, the items you have and how much they are and where you got them. Someone else should judge perhaps. Maybe a poll? Oh the MOST IMPORTENT RULE.... have fun :D *edit* almost forgot. 32 point buy. and whatever prc you use, that book is open to a druid, so you may want to say what books you are using before hand. When you roll for hit points, make the first roll max (lvl 1), Every other level after that assume average. d8=4 d10=5. I am going with the school of thought that beleaves that in wildshape con abilty modifire does increase your total hiit points.
eRaz0r 10-18-05, 02:19 PM	Actually - I think that's generous - the original comparison is between F10/OOTBI 10 and a Druid 20. If he's able to include a different build, then the original statement becomes moot. I want to see the stats for a F10/OOTBI 10 who can take out the druid 20 without breaking a sweat, as he is so fond of implying. BTW - the usage of Spot to detect at a range the druid in wildshape is in error. The reelvant sections are these : Usually, an individual makes a Spot check to see through your disguise immediately upon meeting you and each hour thereafter. If you casually meet many different creatures, each for a short time, check once per day or hour, using an average Spot modifier for the group. and The Spot skill is used primarily to detect characters or creatures who are hiding. Typically, your Spot check is opposed by the Hide check of the creature trying not to be seen. Sometimes a creature isn’t intentionally hiding but is still difficult to see, so a successful Spot check is necessary to notice it. A Spot check result higher than 20 generally lets you become aware of an invisible creature near you, though you can’t actually see it. Spot is also used to detect someone in disguise, and to read lips when you can’t hear or understand what someone is saying. Spot checks may be called for to determine the distance at which an encounter begins. A penalty applies on such checks, depending on the distance between the two individuals or groups, and an additional penalty may apply if the character making the Spot check is distracted (not concentrating on being observant). Note also the following modifiers to spot : Condition Penalty Per 10 feet of distance -1 Spotter distracted -5 So even with a +43 to spot, you're unlikely to detect anyone hiding from you more than 400 feet away, and even if you were to detect a lurking animal, it would look just like any other animal to you , because you wouldn't be considered to have "met" the creature enough to trigger a Spot check to penetrate any disguise. Given the automatica +10 to disguise that Alter Self gives you (and Polymorph inherits, and therefore Wildshape gets), your chances of staring intently at the forest from 1200' away, seeing the hidden druid in wildshape and knowing that he is your target is .. nil. Might I also note that Spot isn't a class skill for Fighter, so your maximum would be 13/2 = 6 ranks + 10 for OOTBI = 16 ranks + Wis modifier + whatever other bonuses you can get from items etc. If you want to optimize it by blowing a feat on able learner or something, make sure you note that in your build.
Moon-Lancer 10-18-05, 03:18 PM	i am unsure how skill ranks work but I always thought in this case, ootbi that he could max out his ranks after its a class skill. I was unable to fine rules talking about how you deal with ranks and different classes. I would just say sure he could up his spot to max when he goes into ootbi, but that’s like all his skill points almost in that one skill. still a +23, 25 if elf, with maybe a +5 from some magic item, that’s only +30, a druid can get a +30 to hide, not counting cross class ranks and such, along with penalty for range, and wildshape bonuses for shifty creatures the druid may assume. The problem is at this point, he has no hide skill points for himself. the druid will know where his is, unless he is invisible, and even then, blind sight from embrace the wild can handle that. eRaz0r if I am wrong about the ranks, could you post where it talks about this so i may be better at building other characters and so i don’t break rules I don’t know about? if anyone else knows as well, please chime in. I think its impossible anyway for a ootbi to beat a druid, but a one hit archer may be different, but I still think the druid would win.
michael_noah 10-18-05, 03:49 PM	You're right about the skills, Moon-Lancer. You're also right that the OOTBI has no chance. I'm pretty sure it has no chance even if he wins initiative against a core only druid. KBSsnowowl's acher could kill him if he won initiative (not surprise - there's very little chance he could sneak up on a druid). Even then, if you open up every splatbook - I'm sure there's something for the druid to counteract it.
eRaz0r 10-18-05, 04:11 PM	D'oh - of course, once it does become a class skill, it's max ranks go up to Character Level+3. Silly me, I forgot that whole "I'll put more skill points per level into the skill" part - so I'll retract that bit. Lets assume Max Ranks = 23 then. Lets assume also that he can get some sort of additional stuff that gives him +20 to spot (magic item, wisdom modifiers etc) We're still at +43 to Spot which makes his maximum detction range around 600 feet vs someone who can't hide real well and isn't jumping up and down shouting "Shoot me ! No - over here! Yeah that's it Shoot MEEEEE" i.e 1d20 +43 - 1 per 10 feet (-60) = need a 17 on that d20 to spot a +0 Hide person who wasn't under any other effects (say invisibility, or bonuses to hide from ranks and wildshape) That's just to *see* them. If they're in the shape of a stalking panther, there's also no reason that someone at 600+ feet could even know if it was the Druid or a regular panther. They haven't "met" them, so they don't trigger the "Spot vs Disguise" thing, and even if the DM ruled that was sufficient of a "meeting" the effects of Wildshape give +10 to disguising yourself as that creature, so the chances of him penetrating a disguise at that range is nil (he'd need a 27 on a d20, which is impossible, and remember, there's no autosuccess on a 20 for a skill roll, just as there's no auto-failure). And that's all considering a +0 Hide check, which we all know a panther easily exceeds. (Ahh - but the Druid's not always in Panther form - but really Panther is just one of many stealthy forms that a Druid would consider being in by default. Even a legendary Ape (a very standard Druid choice) isn't a +0 Hide creature). Obviously if we move the combat into an open arena 200 feet across, the contest changes significantly. But then you have to consider that the Druid and the Archer will both have prepared for an encounter with their opponent. So giving the Archer bane arrows vs Druids (etc) and you have to assume that the Druid can prepare spells and purchase items specifically to combat the bowman. To do otherwise is simply erecting a strawman.
aelryinth 10-18-05, 04:21 PM	I thought SPot was a class skill for the Order:) Take 2 pts of Spot per level, + another 3, solves the Spot problem...the archer is not restricted to one rank per level, you know! They nerfed Zen Archery that bad? MMM, I was indeed adding a Wis bonus to hit. There was also a feat that allowed you to substitute your Wisdom for your strength for missile damage...I can't for the life of me remember what book it was in, however. It would, however, allow the archer to concentrate on one stat. Scorn is (I believe) the name they picked for the Anti-class 'Bane' effect. If I got the name wrong, Forgive me. Note it's 'druidscorn', you can have 'magescorn' and 'fighterscorn' and the like. It's a Bane effect against classes as opposed to race/type. They had it posted on the WoTC site, harkening back to the ol' +1/+2 vs magic-using and enchanted beings... Where in the world does a Druid get an AMF to cast? You did say cast, right? Does no one understand that Fortification doesn't stop a Burst from exploding for extra damage? He won't get the extra fixed damage from the arrow...but my example didn't even include it! the +10d10 was the burst effects going off. Mechanus Darkleaf plate? What? With a Shield? At the very least, lose the Wisdom bonus for violating it twice. With a +43 to spot, I'm far more likely to spot the druid then the Druid is to spot me. And besides, I don't have to look for the druid...all I really have to look for is his animal companion. And kill it. From way far off. and then remove myself from the area. Given the situation you described above, I would simply wait three days until the Druid got sick and tired of memorizing all the useless spells and casting them on himself. Plus, I doubt he has Endurance to sleep in his armor. The archer is not going to have buffs up all the time, anyways. He doesn't need to. As for flight, I'd use a Carpet of Flying, with a Ring as backup. It can move quite handily while I take a full attack action. Goes invisible with me, so the Druid isn't going to see me coming, either... Equipment? The Bow. The Arrows. Your standard array of Dex buffers and Str buffers. I'll leave out the Enlargement cheese, or using a Greatbow. Prob a Wis buffer unless Wis is utterly meaningless here. Something to fly with. Something to defy Div spells of low level. A Spot buffer. Either Oils of GMW or a spell storing device to generate em. Healing potions. A one shot item to cast AMF. Good Armor. Something of invisibility. Something to see the invisible. A ring of blinking, +boots of speed or potions of haste. Good Armor. +5 something or other, maybe spiked. Bracers of Archery. +2 Greater Weapon Focus. +2 Dex of 34? +12 Bow w Oil +5 BAB +20 DruidScorn is +2 Bane effects are +2 per. Haste +1 potion of or Permanent Aid or Bless, +1 Morale. for a +45+ bane/scorn. If the Wis stacked, then +50 is easy. IF the Druid knows I'm coming, then likely I don't want a Burst effect. HE'll have bracers or armor, so I'd be better off with Brilliant arrows, netting another +8 to +13 to hit (where did he pick up heavy armor proficency, anyways?), and instead of bursts on the Bow, I'll put Wounding, Seeking (negates concealment, like mist) and Vicous. With the assumption that Wis stacked for the Zen Archery branches, I was tacking on another +8 to 10 to hit. Now, the Order doesn't let you have greater Weapon Spec, but damage is still pretty high. 1d8, +10 for a 30 str, +5 for the bow, +2 for Spec, +2 for Scorn, + possible +2 for a Bane if he is, as you stay, staying wildshaped all the time. So, WITH NO CRITS, firing AT the DRuid from any range, and if the druid is wildshaped into an animal or elemental (as you say he will be), we have a +49 to hit. I can lose the Bursts for Brilliant damage and ignore any Armor he has. If I suprise him, or go first (likely with a 34 dex and improved Init), I'm doing a base of 1d8 +21, +18 more of Bane/Scorn dmg, for +39 per arrow. With Wounding, every 2 hits is another 20 pts of dmg. Vicous adds another +7. 4 hits, which is to say, the 4 shots going off at +49 and ignoring armor, deals out, on average, about 240 points of damage. I still have 6 more on my iterative stack because of the Splitting. If I hit with 2, that's another 120 points and most likely the Druid is dead. repel Wood is a line effect a mere 60' long. I can go around it with my move action. I'm shooting from 400' away, I remind you. The druid can only use long range spells. And to be really, really mean, I could just make a Greater Wounding Splitting bow and snipe at him. Every two hits at +49 is 4 points of Con ability damage...which, only having access to lesser restoration, he can't really replace...40 pts of dmg from Con loss. I can do that literally all day...and he can't keep up his little winds that long, I'll just leave the area. Way too many assumptions about everyone being buffed. The archer does not need to be uber buffed by his friends and cohorts and then go wandering up to face the prepared and ready Druid. He has to kill the Druid. And he can do it without resorting to JUST druid-killing stuff, except for some Bane effects. Whereas the Druid basically has to customize his entire spells for the day to deal with this guy...and the archer just has to not engage him. If the Druid comes looking for him...one full attack can take the Druid completely out of the game. A Suprise round and follow up full attack will also do the job nicely. It's the bow and the arrows, guys, and some smart tactics. A fully buffed Druid? I'll content myself with wiping out his animal companions and removing myself from the area. Wind effects? I'll either retreat and wait, or head for the eye of the thing for a grapple/AMF I've got the Strength and BAB to win every time. Concealment? I'll use Seeking, or Improved Precise Shot. A lot of the killer combo spells above are short or medium range. And if the Druid can get that close, I'll just AMF and go for the grapple kill after eliminating his animal companions. I'm a f/10...I've got the str and feats to do it. ==Aelryinth
Moon-Lancer 10-18-05, 04:32 PM	what i ment was actualy post a build. what you posted was the stats on a build but thier is no way to validate (like your ability score), Make it look like a charicter sheet and break down the damage *oh you did that... sotof*. However I will post a build in a few hours if you like. You havent said anything about the terms for the contest so I will assume they are ok. I will assuem your using the zen archery from compleat warrior if your going to use it.
Nazzareth 10-18-05, 04:39 PM	Two spells that will make your day Control weather + Control winds , I would to like see him fire a bow in a hurricane force winds that you control (AMF won't help here). Wildshape or shape change into any type of air elemental and summon a **** load them to attack him sit back and cast spells. Instead of killing him go for total humiliation, make him useless, take away his offensive abilities, warp wood his bow and supply of arrows, heat metal his belt buckles and clasps, then summon an air elemental vortex him and watch his clothes fly off, finally cast soften earth and stone and summon a group of earth elementals to play catch with him (naked mud wrestling with elementals). Spring attack and any creature with burrow works wonders. leadership and a cohort with the Telthor template might help.
michael_noah 10-18-05, 04:48 PM	I thought SPot was a class skill for the Order:) Scorn is (I believe) the name they picked for the Anti-class 'Bane' effect. If I got the name wrong, Forgive me. Note it's 'druidscorn', you can have 'magescorn' and 'fighterscorn' and the like. It's a Bane effect against classes as opposed to race/type. They had it posted on the WoTC site, harkening back to the ol' +1/+2 vs magic-using and enchanted beings... With a +43 to spot, I'm far more likely to spot the druid then the Druid is to spot me. And besides, I don't have to look for the druid...all I really have to look for is his animal companion. And kill it. From way far off. and then remove myself from the area. the druid's spot is going to be way, way better. his wisdom is 34. if you shoot his companion, he casts control winds, you can never shoot again. Given the situation you described above, I would simply wait three days until the Druid got sick and tired of memorizing all the useless spells and casting them on himself. Plus, I doubt he has Endurance to sleep in his armor. The archer is not going to have buffs up all the time, anyways. He doesn't need to. the druid scrys, communes with nature, or tracks you, then kills you. As for flight, I'd use a Carpet of Flying, with a Ring as backup. It can move quite handily while I take a full attack action. Goes invisible with me, so the Druid isn't going to see me coming, either... dispell magic, fall, die. doesn't matter. Equipment? The Bow. The Arrows. Your standard array of Dex buffers and Str buffers. I'll leave out the Enlargement cheese, or using a Greatbow. Prob a Wis buffer unless Wis is utterly meaningless here. Something to fly with. Something to defy Div spells of low level. A Spot buffer. Either Oils of GMW or a spell storing device to generate em. Healing potions. A one shot item to cast AMF. Good Armor. Something of invisibility. Something to see the invisible. A ring of blinking, +boots of speed or potions of haste. Good Armor. +5 something or other, maybe spiked. Bracers of Archery. +2 Greater Weapon Focus. +2 Dex of 34? +12 Bow w Oil +5 BAB +20 DruidScorn is +2 Bane effects are +2 per. Haste +1 potion of or Permanent Aid or Bless, +1 Morale. for a +45+ bane/scorn. If the Wis stacked, then +50 is easy. so +47 on a good day. wisdom doesn't stack. you still only hit half the time. also, the druid's buffs were up all day. if you take time to haste, apply oils, drink potions, etc... you have no chance whatsoever. the only chance is that you're gifted the first action. If you do anything other than shoot him, he wins. IF the Druid knows I'm coming, then likely I don't want a Burst effect. HE'll have bracers or armor, so I'd be better off with Brilliant arrows, netting another +8 to +13 to hit (where did he pick up heavy armor proficency, anyways?), and instead of bursts on the Bow, I'll put Wounding, Seeking (negates concealment, like mist) and Vicous. If the druid knows you're coming, you have no chance at all. With the assumption that Wis stacked for the Zen Archery branches, I was tacking on another +8 to 10 to hit. Now, the Order doesn't let you have greater Weapon Spec, but damage is still pretty high. 1d8, +10 for a 30 str, +5 for the bow, +2 for Spec, +2 for Scorn, + possible +2 for a Bane if he is, as you stay, staying wildshaped all the time. So, WITH NO CRITS, firing AT the DRuid from any range, and if the druid is wildshaped into an animal or elemental (as you say he will be), we have a +49 to hit. I can lose the Bursts for Brilliant damage and ignore any Armor he has. If I suprise him, or go first (likely with a 34 dex and improved Init), I'm doing a base of 1d8 +21, +18 more of Bane/Scorn dmg, for +39 per arrow. With Wounding, every 2 hits is another 20 pts of dmg. Vicous adds another +7. 4 hits, which is to say, the 4 shots going off at +49 and ignoring armor, deals out, on average, about 240 points of damage. I still have 6 more on my iterative stack because of the Splitting. If I hit with 2, that's another 120 points and most likely the Druid is dead. you keep adding bane multiple times. You get 1d8+10+5+2spec+2scorn+2bane (if you're lucky and he's not a treant like i suggested). that's 1d8+21 - a max of 29 +10 wounding +7 viscious = 46. Even if you hit all 10 times, that's 460. If you have brilliant energy, his AC is (arguably, since bracers should not be affected by brilliant energy) only 49, so congratulations, you can hit him. but not enough considering all you were gifted, and that if you actually take time to apply your oil and drink your potion, the druid is burrowed, shapechanged, you can't shoot your bow and you're grappled by huge elementals... repel Wood is a line effect a mere 60' long. I can go around it with my move action. I'm shooting from 400' away, I remind you. The druid can only use long range spells. And to be really, really mean, I could just make a Greater Wounding Splitting bow and snipe at him. Every two hits at +49 is 4 points of Con ability damage...which, only having access to lesser restoration, he can't really replace...40 pts of dmg from Con loss. I can do that literally all day...and he can't keep up his little winds that long, I'll just leave the area. and he can shapechange into something without a con score. or, you know, cast Heal. Way too many assumptions about everyone being buffed. The archer does not need to be uber buffed by his friends and cohorts and then go wandering up to face the prepared and ready Druid. He has to kill the Druid. And he can do it without resorting to JUST druid-killing stuff, except for some Bane effects. Whereas the Druid basically has to customize his entire spells for the day to deal with this guy...and the archer just has to not engage him. If the Druid comes looking for him...one full attack can take the Druid completely out of the game. A Suprise round and follow up full attack will also do the job nicely. Druids are always buffed, all day long. And they carry scrolls of control winds and repel wood. You never get a surprise round because he can hide, move silently, spot, and listen betten than you. It's the bow and the arrows, guys, and some smart tactics. A fully buffed Druid? I'll content myself with wiping out his animal companions and removing myself from the area. Wind effects? I'll either retreat and wait, or head for the eye of the thing for a grapple/AMF I've got the Strength and BAB to win every time. Concealment? I'll use Seeking, or Improved Precise Shot. A lot of the killer combo spells above are short or medium range. And if the Druid can get that close, I'll just AMF and go for the grapple kill after eliminating his animal companions. I'm a f/10...I've got the str and feats to do it. ==Aelryinth You can never run away because he is faster, smarter, and has access to more magic than you. If you take any time at all attacking his companion, you are eaten alive. You can never pinpoint him to attack his square if he is concealed because he is too far away for you to hear him. If you cast an antimagic field, you get to deal with his companion, his created shambling mounds, his treant staff, and the ground underneath you, which your antimagic field doesn't penetrate, earthquaking you to death. Good luck with that tactic. Edit: made a mistake about the treant and shambling mounds - I guess even though they are created and real... they wink out in an antimagic field because they are an effect. Oh well. Still have a bear and an earthquake to deal with.
Prominence 10-18-05, 05:22 PM	I dunno, I suggest just doing nothing and standing still while wildshaped into something immune to con damage and let him shoot you. Retributive amulet, starmantle cloak. Let him hit you all 10 times, for 460 damage. You take: 115. He takes: 230. See who dies first? edit: it's arguable he takes 115 too. In which case, quicken cure moderate yourself, and flamestrike him or something, so he still dies.
michael_noah 10-18-05, 05:25 PM	I dunno, I suggest just doing nothing and standing still while wildshaped into something immune to con damage and let him shoot you. Retributive amulet, starmantle cloak. Let him hit you all 10 times, for 460 damage. You take: 115. He takes: 230. See who dies first? Right, the contest is trivial if you open up splatbooks. I'm saying that a Core Only druid will still own this guy.
Prominence 10-18-05, 05:29 PM	Bleh, it's only 2 items from 1 splatbook to be immune to his tactics. It isn't anywhere near what he's doing. But anyway, I think his math on the +49 to hit is a bit off, and Bracers of AC count as armor so it's bypassed (if it's deflection, it isn't). Either way, why can't you just get an intelligent ring of blink to negate 1/2 his attacks? 230 dmg isnt that impressive and certainly liveable. It's fairly core too right? And, why the heck would you take Zen Archery as a fighter/ootbi? Your dex should be good if you want to win initiative.
Nazzareth 10-18-05, 05:42 PM	If the archer wins initiative, is able to see the druid, and neither had time to buff before combat, the archer probably wins in one turn. But there are many ifs. If the Druid had craft contingent spell. The archers main weakness is the heavy reliance on magic items. The druid has dispell magic and gtr dispell magic on hand and maybe wands. A one use disjunction item would nuke the archers items into uselessness.
J-A-R-N-O 10-18-05, 05:46 PM	Damn, I remembered Druids get AMF too, sorry. But anyway, if the archer can get it somehow, then can also the druid. About waiting three days, why on earth would you do that? The druid can Scry your position away, and come for you. He has a lot of ways to get rid of the archer. The best way fot the archer to win this is by killing the druid before it can do nothing. The druid can Shapechange to an Iron Golem, becoming immune to magical effects, like the burst and wounding effects of your weapon. Only melee weapons can be vicious. And who's to say the druid does not have a Carpet of flying and a Ring of invisibility? The druid can have the same items as you have. And they get True seeing. Call lightning storm is a long range spell. For the druid to win easily, the core-only aspect of it might have to be left behind, I'm afraid. With right equipment, his chances of survival will multiply greatly, just like Prominence pointed out. I remember a debate where someone whose name I can't recall, claimed that the fighter was the strongest character class, and said it can beat any tactic any other character used against it, by using his gear, which consisted of any magic items he needed. This just points out how gear-dependent high level games are. You have collected a fine list of magic items, but does that tell us that archers are better druids? No it doesn't, it just points out that archers benefit from good equipment more than druids. But just like any high level duels, this comes to initiative and pre-combat buffing. There are too many variables to say which one will win for sure. Other circumstances give the archer a chance to kill the druid before he gets to act at all, while under other circumstances the archer gets crushed easily. Edit: I would like to see the face of this guy when he founds out all of his gear has been disjunctioned. That's just cruel, Nazzareth, shouldn't he be at least given a slight chance ;)
aelryinth 10-18-05, 05:47 PM	Two spells that will make your day Control weather + Control winds , I would to like see him fire a bow in a hurricane force winds that you control (AMF won't help here). Wildshape or shape change into any type of air elemental and summon a **** load them to attack him sit back and cast spells. Instead of killing him go for total humiliation, make him useless, take away his offensive abilities, warp wood his bow and supply of arrows, heat metal his belt buckles and clasps, then summon an air elemental vortex him and watch his clothes fly off, finally cast soften earth and stone and summon a group of earth elementals to play catch with him (naked mud wrestling with elementals). Spring attack and any creature with burrow works wonders. leadership and a cohort with the Telthor template might help. And I stand outside the storm zone and wait. I don't have buffs to run out...the druid does. The spells will go away, and I'll be back. What's he going to do, keep up a storm 24/7 and devastate the ecology? Oh, here comes an air elemental. Twang x 8, its dead. Oh look, he's trying SHORT RANGE ATTACK SPELLS on me! Wee! Time to grapple, AMF, and kill him. ===Aelryinth
Kuroi Kenshi 10-18-05, 05:48 PM	Elven Darkleaf Mechanus Gear Armor? That would be a sight - geared armor made from leaves.....yeah. But there is nothing specifically prohibiting it, so I'll let it slide. Haha, yeah. I feel the same way. I saw it on snow savant's druid build and thought it better than dragonhide fullplate, though. You cannot, however, gain the benefits of the Monk's belt while wearing armor or wielding a shield. Thanks! I forgot about that. Let me give it a try...10 (base) + 19 (natural - young adult shadow dragon) + 5 (natural enhancement [barkskin]) +13 (Monk's Belt) +5 (Ring of Protection) +2 (Dex) +3 (+6 gloves of Dex) = 57... 57 AC vs brilliant energy weapons isn't bad. Of course, a druid could opt to shapechange into a golem, nightwalker, or similar to ignore damage from such weapons. If I instead used the shield and armor you mentioned (giving both the Wild property), the +13 from the monk's belt is replaced with a total of +22, but we'll assume we can only get +2 max dex bonus, for a total armor class of: 10 (base) + 19 (natural - young adult shadow dragon) + 5 (natural enhancement [barkskin]) +15 (armor) +7 (shield) +5 (Ring of Protection) +2 (Dex) = 63 The max dex on the mechanus armor is +1 I'm pretty sure, so it's 1 less AC. But, then there's the armor spike cheese applicable for 5 or more AC for at least 67 AC (really money is the only limiting factor to how much more AC you can slap on). At any rate, thanks for the correction and both examples!
Moon-Lancer 10-18-05, 06:06 PM	actualy i am almost done with the build, but i found a spell that fixes this whole thing. Storm Rage. This allows the druid to be in a movieing wall of wind that protects him on all sides. it lets him fly 60 feet a round, and allows one touch attack at 20d6 lighting with no save and does not prevokattacks of opertunity nore is it resistent to spell resistence. oh i hope you dont mind, i dident want to calculate eq and gold so i went with vop. i hope you dont mind.
aelryinth 10-18-05, 06:15 PM	Ah, was thinking the Zen Archery stacked. If it doesn't, Wis becomes unimportant. Also thought it could sub for str damage...which would be nice, as now you don't have to have a bow built for a specific Str, you do whatever dmg your Wis is at. Won't help with the backup grappling, tho, so Str it is. Forgot, don't need a bless spell...just suck a potion of heroism. Didn't even tag a sacred or insight bonus to hit anywhere. That druid isn't going to see me when I take out his oversized grapple monger...I'll be over 400'+ away, too, and just go invisible as soon as my full attack is done and the thing is dead. I'm already assuming I can't find the Druid...I'm trying to flush him out, remember? Dire Bears don't hide all that well. If he IS in the area of the bear, I'll likely see him, if by nothing else then by the bear's reaction to surrounding creatures. get in closer, suprise round and full attack followup. Basic tactics: At long range, I shoot him. All he can do is stir up winds and then I shrug and retreat from the area of effect, hopefully having inflicted some Con damage he can't easily get rid of. I am not earthbound...earthquake isn't going to work. Intelligent items? Well, like I said, he can't blink all day either, or he's going to be casting spells in the ethereal, too. Um, amulet of retribution and starmantle cloak...the cloak gives you a reflex save for half damage, but also makes it impossible for you to hide, since you SHINE while you wear it...and you can't wear it while wildshapped, it's not Wild. And a 132K item made for Exalted types...weeee. Yeah, he wears that all the time! The AMulet works only against melee attacks. I'm using a bow. Commune w/Nature? Already said I'm wearing something to block Div spells. Probably flying to boot. And again, this has a duration. Tactics don't assume brains. I'm probably smarter then him because he's a Wis junkie...so he's wiser, so what? Everything he does has a duration attached, and all I have to do is outlast the duration. Almost NOTHING I have has the same limitations. And if I can get rid of his animal companion, which takes me all of one round, then he's hideously vulnerable to a grapple and kill inside an AMF field. I'll likely have +5 Bab, +5 Str, and +4 Improved Grapple on him. Once he's dead, I can sell off his gear and make all my money back as needed. If he kills me, well, I'm already the underdog, right? Can he kill me? Sure, if I can't run...but I can run, and I can wait, and I don't have a pet or friends in the forest to watch out for. I'm not going to sit still while he unloads this arsenal of uber spells on me...get real. This is a game of patience, long range attacks...and if he gets close, death to him via grapple. ==Aelryinth
aelryinth 10-18-05, 06:18 PM	actualy i am almost done with the build, but i found a spell that fixes this whole thing. Storm Rage. This allows the druid to be in a movieing wall of wind that protects him on all sides. it lets him fly 60 feet a round, and allows one touch attack at 20d6 lighting with no save and does not prevokattacks of opertunity nore is it resistent to spell resistence. oh i hope you dont mind, i dident want to calculate eq and gold so i went with vop. i hope you dont mind. Great! I stay away from him until the spell goes away. Hope you don't mind. If he does get close, I pop my AmF and grapple him to death. Note he loses all his VOw Benefits inside the AMF, too. ==Aelryinth
OGS-Remix 10-18-05, 06:30 PM	And I stand outside the storm zone and wait. I don't have buffs to run out...the druid does. The spells will go away, and I'll be back. What's he going to do, keep up a storm 24/7 and devastate the ecology? Druids have 2 spells called stormrage, greater whirlwind. Stormrage is a min/level spell that gives you 360 wind wall, 90 ft fly at Average manuverability. So the storm zone is following you at 90 ft a round for 20 minutes. Greater whirlwind does exactly what its name implies; and it is medium range. So the Druid can follow you around and control/throw multiple whirlwinds at you all of which negate any bow attacks as well as doing damage with no save, but SR applies. So no, the druid isn't devastating the ecology; he's just devastating the area you're standing in. Edit: And as for your AMF + Grapple Idea, the druid takes a bath in multiple does of contact poisons everyday to wake up. Refreshing!
aelryinth 10-18-05, 06:37 PM	Haha, yeah. I feel the same way. I saw it on snow savant's druid build and thought it better than dragonhide fullplate, though. Thanks! I forgot about that. 57 AC vs brilliant energy weapons isn't bad. Of course, a druid could opt to shapechange into a golem, nightwalker, or similar to ignore damage from such weapons. The max dex on the mechanus armor is +1 I'm pretty sure, so it's 1 less AC. But, then there's the armor spike cheese applicable for 5 or more AC for at least 67 AC (really money is the only limiting factor to how much more AC you can slap on). At any rate, thanks for the correction and both examples! Brilliant weapons ignore armor and shields, so none of that AC applies...and since when can Dragons use shields? ANd when did your druid pick up Heavy Armor proficency? As for creatures immune to brilliant damage, that is why its on some arrows and not on the bow. A Dragon would be great...fairly big and easy to see at a distance, you are relying on the Con modifier I'm going to shaft, and you won't get a Dex mod on the surprise/first init round, anyways. I'll be hitting you 2/3 shots for my first 4, and then reducing down somewhat. As for AC mods to increase, TH mods increase using the same cash. I dont have insight, luck, or sacred bonuses to hit anywhere in those bonuses. And you didn't even have heavy fort armor with elemental resistance...which means burst arrows would rip you apart on a crit. This event is just begging for me to do a one round salvo of 4 arrows, and swoop in and pop my AMF field. You'd lose all your bonuses, be down Con, and die even faster. And if you have wind spells up, then all you are doing is wasting cash and comps while I wait at a safe distance for the spell to go away. As noted before, this comes down to who sees who and initiative. Everyone is blatantly assuming the Druid is staying in wildshape, and isn't going to have the same sort of gear I do...he doesn't need it. Also note that anything wildshaped and in armor stands out like a sore thumb, relatively speaking...and he STILL needs heavy armor proficency to cast in the dragonhide plate, right? I don't have to sit there and take his uberage spells, and he's not going to track me down with Div spells of any sort. This is not a one-sided fight unless you don't allow the archer to retreat and come back...again, and again, and again. If he has to sit and take it, I agree he's toast. Winds come up, all he can do is leave. But if he can come back when the winds are gone, and they will go, then all the winds are is a delaying tactic. ==Aelryinth
michael_noah 10-18-05, 06:44 PM	Forgot, don't need a bless spell...just suck a potion of heroism. Didn't even tag a sacred or insight bonus to hit anywhere. That druid isn't going to see me when I take out his oversized grapple monger...I'll be over 400'+ away, too, and just go invisible as soon as my full attack is done and the thing is dead. I'm already assuming I can't find the Druid...I'm trying to flush him out, remember? Dire Bears don't hide all that well. If he IS in the area of the bear, I'll likely see him, if by nothing else then by the bear's reaction to surrounding creatures. get in closer, suprise round and full attack followup. If you can see the bear, the druid can see you. That's all there is to it. Basic tactics: At long range, I shoot him. All he can do is stir up winds and then I shrug and retreat from the area of effect, hopefully having inflicted some Con damage he can't easily get rid of. I am not earthbound...earthquake isn't going to work. Intelligent items? Well, like I said, he can't blink all day either, or he's going to be casting spells in the ethereal, too. As soon as you start retreating, he shapechanges into something you can't possibly hurt. That's the worst thing you could do. You lose. He can easily get rid of con damage, and he can dispel your silly rug. Commune w/Nature? Already said I'm wearing something to block Div spells. Probably flying to boot. And again, this has a duration. Something to block div spells... that's specific. At the least, he gets a caster level check to overcome it. And that's moot. He can find you a billion other ways. Tactics don't assume brains. I'm probably smarter then him because he's a Wis junkie...so he's wiser, so what? Everything he does has a duration attached, and all I have to do is outlast the duration. He didn't have to put any attribute points in physical stats, so his intelligence and charisma are higher than yours. He has better friends who like him more and more knowledge. You can't possibly outlast any duration. He's buffed all day, every day, and even if you could kill his companion and run away, he gets another for free. Almost NOTHING I have has the same limitations. Haste... Oil of Magic weapon... Invisibility... antimagic field... You are hugely limitted. And if I can get rid of his animal companion, which takes me all of one round, then he's hideously vulnerable to a grapple and kill inside an AMF field. I'll likely have +5 Bab, +5 Str, and +4 Improved Grapple on him. Once he's dead, I can sell off his gear and make all my money back as needed. If he kills me, well, I'm already the underdog, right? then he has one round to, oh, quickened tree-stride next to you, then blow up a bunch of holy berry bombs on your face. or any of a multitude of other things that simply kill you, or make him invulnerable to your attacks. If, by some amazing string of luck, you did get an advantage over him, he can word of recall away, hide from you (better than you from him), heal himself (bettern than you can), get some friends (better), prepare a specific spell list to face you, craft himself some items, and then hunt you down and kill you because you were silly enough to think that warning him by shooting his bear was a good idea. Can he kill me? Sure, if I can't run...but I can run, and I can wait, and I don't have a pet or friends in the forest to watch out for. I'm not going to sit still while he unloads this arsenal of uber spells on me...get real. This is a game of patience, long range attacks...and if he gets close, death to him via grapple. ==Aelryinth you can't move as fast, go as many places, or hide well enough to escape him. if you wait, he gets stronger, not weaker. his friends in the forest aren't being watched out for by him, they are helping him hunt you down. you are going to sit still because you'll be dead. patience rewards him, long range rewards him, and if he's close you'll never have time to activate an anti-magic field. Even if you do, he can get away faster than you, and come back stronger. There is a reason that the druid is widely considered the first or second strongest class. Get it?
HamHam 10-18-05, 07:07 PM	This is not a one-sided fight unless you don't allow the archer to retreat and come back...again, and again, and again. If he has to sit and take it, I agree he's toast. Winds come up, all he can do is leave. But if he can come back when the winds are gone, and they will go, then all the winds are is a delaying tactic. If the archer runs away, all the druid does is turn into something with a burrow speed and tunnels away while you're looking for him in the huge whirlwind he's created. A couple days later while you're walking through the woods lightning will begin rain down on you and you'll have to figure out which of the thousands of plants, animals, or for that matter isn't in Invisible Stalker form and is standing right next to you (I believe this is possible using some kind of feat, but I may be wrong. If I am... he can still be an earth elemental that right underneath you).
Llochlyn 10-18-05, 07:18 PM	This is getting childish (no better word in my vocabulary, don't take offense, cause there is none meant) ... Just build and then find a judge and fight, so you'll know... It's like chess, you can never know until you're better than Kasparov... Plus there are dice rolls... Just play it :P
Prominence 10-18-05, 07:35 PM	it should be noted that it's impossible for a ranger to run from a druid (bar some teleport item) since wildshape gives vastly superior speeds (such as elemental's perfect 100 fly speed, which is better than anything a ranger gets). edit: and all this is up in the air ONLY if the druid loses initiative. If the druid wins, it's no contest.
eRaz0r 10-18-05, 07:38 PM	Post a build. Is Hide a class skill for OOTBI ? I don't know, but I'll assume it is. You have a ring of flying, a carpet of flying, a ring of invisibility, a Bow tricked out to +10, arrows of bane (anything you want), an item of AMF (one shot even), something that protects from scrying or other low level spells, and that's just what I remember off the top of my head. Lets see the rest of your stats, instead of just assuming that you've got anything you want any time it's convenient for you to have it. Spend your 20th level gold allowance and lets see where that gets us. You still haven't shown how you can detect the druid _OR_ his Dire bear (or Dire Tiger, which can Hide). +43 Spot isn't going to help you determine which animal is the druid at anything more than 50 feet or so (and that's being generous). Nor will +43 Spot help to determine which of all the animals in the forest is the Druids animal companion. So unless you shoot every single animal in the forest, you'll never be sure. You say all you have to do is wait till the druid runs out of buffs and duration. All the druid has to do is wait till you run out of arrows. I just don't see what you can do to stop him finding you before you find him. You have Spot - he has Divination Spells AND Spot. . It's also disingenous to assume your Wis modifier will equal or exceed his. You need Dex, Str, Con, and Wis (if using Zen Archery). He really just needs Wis. Many 20 Druids are at least "old" giving him bonuses to his mental stats (meaning more skill points from the higher Int - your dump stat, as well as a higher Wis) - your OOTBI would be hampered by age, and should be built before any age modifiers would decrease his physical stats. So the druids spot is most likely going to be better than the archers, and the archer can't change shape or even blend into the surroundings as well as the druid can. Unless you get a friend to cast Mind Blank on you, his spells and spot will trump your mere spot - And if you're bringing your friends into this, the contest is already skewed away from what *your* character can accomplish, and towards what a small group can accomplish.... and that's a different story altogether. Just tell me one thing that would ensure that you see him before he sees you... Oh, and if it's a magic item, don't forget to subtract it from your gold. Infinite magic items isn't part of the OOTBI's class abilities, AFAIK. You keep saying you can stay away from the druid - but you'd have to have a movement speed greater than the druids to do so. With the Shapechange spell, the druid can access almost any movement speed and type that there is in the game. You've got a) your feet or b) any speed that comes from items or mounts e.g. pegasus, carpet or ring of flying. If you're a medium humanoid fighter, thats a) 30' on the ground or b) 40' for the carpet, 60' for Wings of Flying, I don't see anything faster in the DMG and assuming a pegasus mount might be a bit of a stretch. So you won't be able to escape a Stormrage. You won't be able to escape the Druid in wildshape (Dragon) or shapechanged form (solar). But he can keep close enough to pepper you with spells, but far enough that you can't close with him in a round to activate any AMF on top of him. In fact, with a fly speed of 150 in Solar form, the Druid can hover at range, cast a spell and take a single move action to keep himself at the limits of your movement. You fire an arrow at him and the winds blow it away. You take a *full* move to reach him (120' flying with the Wings of Flying) and you're still not close enough to do anything with your AMF (which could only happen the next round anyway). AFAICT, sticking to the actual *rules* and not fiat-ing anything in favour of any particular character, I can't see any reason that the OOTBI has the upper hand in any encounter not specifically tailored to eliminate the druids strengths (i.e. taking him out of a natural setting, which all his powers are geared towards). And this is assuming the archer is stalking the Druid - i.e. actively searching to kill the druid. If the druid is the stalker, and the archer is only aware that someone might be coming for him, sometime, then the druid definitely takes the upper hand.
Elvis Gone Warlock 10-18-05, 07:51 PM	Ranged Attacks are trumped by that bead of karma/wind wall idea, as far as I can tell. If ya wanna be really nasty, though, just draconic wildshape into a real big dragon, get some cubes of force activated, and fly up and breathe on him. Grappling would be fun too. :)
Moon-Lancer 10-18-05, 07:55 PM	Well guys i said i would post a build and I have. I haven’t stated out the animal companion, but it is a celestial dire tiger so it has a -16 adjustment to druid level rather then -15. Other then that its pretty much complete needs some stuff here or their (like synergy skill points, and wild empathy I think its 30). I used vop to show that its not about the items, its about the class features and spells. Also because this guy cant collect baseball cards so what else is he going to do besides fight archers. I still need to point out the tactics fo this build but i will do that later. I am a bit tired. Don’t forget to that the archer will be fighting in a shadow terrain. I have it listed as a day before spell. The first thing this druid would do when he finds the archer is cast storm rage. Everything this is just Childs play. Moon Dancer Race: Human LEVEL 20 Druid Str 8 Dex 10 base 8 (vop 2) Con 12 (base 8) (vop 4) Int 15 Wis 30 (base 17) ( 8 vop) (1 every forth level) Cha 22 (base 16) (vop 6) 1 Sacred Vow: Book of exalted deeds 1:Vow Of Poverty: Book of exalted deeds 3: Zen Archery: For ranged tuch attacks 6: natural spell: Cast spells in wildshape 9: Quick Wildsahpe: Complete Divine Wildshape as move action 12: Dragon wildshape: Draconomicon: Wildshape into any dragon small or med equal to hit dice 15: Mobile SpellCasting : Complete adventure: Take a free move action as apart of casting a spell 18: Oaken Resislence: Complete Divine: get tree type. Vow of poverty Feats 1: Nymphs Kiss 2: Intuitive Attack (wis to attack with natural weapons) 4: Exalted Companion 6: Golden Ice 8: Exalted Wild Shape - gives forms like blink dog, unicorn, and celestial template on animal wildshapes with no adjustment. 10: Words of Creation 12: Animal Friend 14: Sanctify Natural attack 16: Night of stars Wildshaped Hit Dice: 20d8=80+80=160 Shadow Dragon Wildshape Str 17 Dex 12 (base dragon 10) (vop2) Con 19 (15 base Dragon) (+4 vop) Int 15 Wis 30 (base 17) ( 8 vop) (1 every forth level)) Cha 22 (base 16) (vop 6) Speed 80, fly 150 (poor) Doesn’t need to fly high above the ground. can skim 5 feet above the ground and with woodland stride doesn’t need to slow down. AC: 44 = 10 (base) 19 (natural wildshape) 2 (natural vop) 10 (exalted AC vop) 3 (deflection vop) 1 (dex) – don’t be fooled the ac isn’t what is protecting the druid AC 49 with barkskin 10min/level All the ac protects agenst brilliant energy, even the vop armor. Attack: Bite +30 = 15(bab) 10(wis) 5(Exalted Strike) Damage 1d8+5exalted strike)+3 (strength) Touch attacks and ranged touch attacks: Same full attack: primary: +30 bite. secondary: +25 2 claws 1d6 2 wings 1d4. all secondary attacks have a modifire of +6. +5 (exalted strike) +1 (half damage of strangth... 3) the wings cannot attack while flying but can while stormrage is cast becuse the wings are not used to hold up the creature, just repel it forward. Saves in Dragon Form Fort: 12+4+3=19 Ref: 6+1+3=10 Will:12+10+3=25 +1 to save from spells and spell-like (nymphs kiss) abilities of interest Shadow blend (su) in any condition of illumination other then full daylight, a very young or older shadow dragon can disappear into the shadows giving it total concealment. Only a daylight spell negates this ability, and amf which archers don’t have. This allows the druid to hide in any place that is not full daylight (in the open). Shadow terrain cuts a lot of the light using dense trees. This ability also means that half the arrows will mis the druid, regardless. Freedom of movement (ex): On all the time via vop Greater sustenance (ex) don’t need to eat or breathe True seeing (su) on all the time via vop Energy resistance (ex) 15 to all elements via vop Energy Drain Immunity via Dragon Damage reduction 10/evil Skills Hide 12 = 11 (cross class) 1 (dex) With forest fold and camouflage= 42 + roll Spot 33 = 23 (class skill) + wis (10) Concentration 27 = 23 + 4 Knowledge nature 27 = 23 + 2 +2 Spell craft 25 = 23 + 2 Handle animal 29 = 23 + 6 +2 Ride 18 = 15+1+2 survival 20 = 8+10 +2 Wild empathy = 32 6+20+2+4 (*edit* lol i forgot survival. so i changed things around abit. i hope thats ok as an archer build has not come about) Skills: 4+2(int)+1(human)+1(nymphs kiss) Spells (the day before) 5 Commune with nature 6 Live Oak 7 Change Staff 9 Greater Scrying 9 Shadow Landscape = (the forest type) 1 legendary wolf (secondary damage unit to aid animal companion) 1 unicorn (recon) 2 wolves. landscape trys to entangle you now. Most likely that will tip of the druid to the archers location. Spells (the day of) Level 1 3x Cure light wounds 2x Produce Flame Entangle Long Strider: cast at beginning of the day Camouflage Level 2 Embrace the wild - Blind sight and other senses may be gained - invisibly Animal Messenger: tree shape: Bark Skin: Restoration Lesser: Earth Bound save or you cannot fly. even with save, fly at half speed 2xWarp wood – Got wood? Level 3 2xCure moderate Wounds 2xMeld into Stone - very nice protection spell for self buffing- not much an archer can do 3xPoison Level 4 2xFlame Strike 2xDispel Magic Forest Fold Murderous Mist Level 5 Wall of thorns Commune with nature: Might be used to find archer in the landscape Animal Growth: For animal companion, Legendary wolf and phantom stags Tree Stride - poof... I’m right behind you. Can be cast pre battle 3xPhantom Stag - cast at the beginning of the day. Has a movement speed of 300 feet and can fly at the same speed. as lots of other nice things. Can go ethereal and spy for the druid. has ghost touch. Not sure if that lets them attack while ethereal. Level 6 4xEnergy Immunity –cast at beginning of the day. negates burst. Fires of purity Level 7 2xHeal Control weather Brilliant aura: all the critters get brilliant weapons for attacks. Storm Tower: Nice anti arrow spell Level 8 Finger of death - you be dead now Storm rage: Awesome anti arrow spell. Keeps the dragon aloof to attack with wings Reverse Gravity - a nice spell for holding archer in place. negates arrows. Word of Recall - last resort, back to ground zero. Gives a second try. Speak with anything: allows communication with all the creatures for advanced tactics Level 9 Natures Avatar: AWSOME buff spell for tiger and wolf Foresight: just in case Cure Critical wounds: mass Unearthly beauty: blind with in 60 feet, kill within 30. has saves. sr no. Greater Scrying: i see you... Fizz for level 9 spells Celestial Unicorn Pixie Elder elemental -summons last twice as long because of words of creation. Animal Friends via Shadow Landscape -Legendary Wolf: maybe its alittle over the top. But a level 20 druid has to hang with the best -Unicorn: can teleport within its grove, if it sees the archer, it would teleport away to let the druid know of the archers location. -2 wolves: used to confuse the archer who is the legendary wolf other friends via spells -2 treeant like creatures: change staff and live oak. pretty good at being trees. you may never see them. -3 Phantom Stags: can go ethereal. they see archer, archer doesn’t see them. They report back to the druid. Animal Companion: Celestial Dire Tiger- To lazy to stat it at the moment i am sure someone can figure it out quicker then i can. Not very ambiguous. May take power attack... This archer is going to have to take out alot of creatures. Keep in mind many of these creatures smell fear... um i mean have scent. they will find the archer and let the druid know. Books used Players handbook Draconomicon - Compleat Warrior - Compleat Divine - Book of Exalted Deeds - monster manual 1 Monster manual 2
Kuroi Kenshi 10-18-05, 07:56 PM	Brilliant weapons ignore armor and shields, so none of that AC applies...and since when can Dragons use shields? ANd when did your druid pick up Heavy Armor proficency? Ok, first off the first example KSBSnowowl gave uses NO armor bonuses at all. He even forgot to put in bracers of armor +8. So that's 57 AC vs brilliant energy, flat out, and it gets even higher with use of shapechange forms like solar (which would give an additional net 4 AC over the shadow dragon). Brilliant energy ignores armor bonuses -only-. It doesn't even ignore natural armor. Check the description in the 3.5 PHB again if you don't believe me. Secondly both the elven leaf mechanus armor and dragonhide full plate are considered medium armor, not heavy. Next for KSBSnowowl's second example, wild armor and shields can be used while in wildshape form, regardless of whether or not the form could normally use them. That's the whole point of the +3 enhancement -_- Druids can afford to stay wildshaped all the time because at level 20, it lasts 20 hours and they can use it many times a day, as has already been stated. Lastly dragon wildshape only allows small or medium dragons. So, a dragon wildshaped druid will be medium sized, not large or huge. If he chooses to use shapechange to get a larger size dragon, he'll have better natural armor to go with and an overall better AC, making him harder to hit.
Nazzareth 10-19-05, 12:44 AM	And I stand outside the storm zone and wait. I don't have buffs to run out...the druid does. The spells will go away, and I'll be back. ===Aelryinth Thats on the assumption you can move outside the stormzone, zero vision, reduced movment, you would not know where the eye or the edge is you will quite possibly get lost in the storm. You will also have no magic items to help you. I hope you have a high spellcraft skill so you know the spells you are up against, otherwise you will would not have clue as to how to counter most of the spells the druid will cast.
aelryinth 10-19-05, 03:39 AM	I know that if it has winds, I dont have to get closer then 400'. Nowhere on that build do I see the ability to become an Outsider. Furthermore, you do know that all the benefits of the Vow are Supernatural, right? So if you use Shapechange to become a Solar, you swap out all your supernatural benefits for his, thus losing all the benefits of the VoP? And I don't see Eschew Materials anywhere on that build...where's the 1500 gp circlet for a shapechange into Solar coming from? You can't own it. A Wolf vs a Legendary Wolf...the difference is noted as being obvious to any onlooker. Spellcraft is to identify a spell as it's being cast. Once it is cast, it's a heck of a lot easier to identify it then that. As for identifying the Druid...he's going to be the one glowing with multiple buff spells and abjurations, or the Creature wearing Armor...which is pretty weird all by itself. Who says I was ever in the stormzone? Book of Exalted Deeds? You mean I can use a Ring of the Solar Wings? A ring of Draconic Flight is probably cheaper and just as effective tho. Is there a reason I'm suddenly trying to attack a saintly Druid instead of a TN druid? Because I'll have to add Unholy to the Bow for the extra damage and to get past his DR. If he can't use armor, I won't be using Brilliant, either. But, since I'm running out of arrow magicks, are there arrows that ignore winds? I know Arcane Archers get the ones that go through walls...So far I can Druidscorn him, Plantbane him, Humanbane him, and Dragonbane him, in addition to Unholy Damage. I'm back up to an extra +8 to hit and damage, and +10d6 damage per arrow against him. That's, oh, about 70 per shot. I hit this guy 3 times and he's dead. Bonus to hit? About +53 and ignoring concealment. Hmm, Do Pierce Magical Concealment and Pierce Magical Defenses work with arrows? Not sure how they'd apply... He can stay wildshaped all day...I'm not afraid of a Wildshape. Wildshape doesn't grant supernatural or spell like abilities. Shapechange does...but you lose your own, and this guy can't even do that without another feat, because of material components cost. Which, incidentally, I haven't checked on for all his other spells, because I don't have all the sourcebooks for them. Words of Creation only enhances Conjuration (Creation) spells. Summoning an Elder Elemental does not qualify. The armor can still be used in the form...you still have to be PROFICENT in the armor...it adapts to the Form, but if you aren't proficent in the armor, how are you going to cast spells in it? Furthermore, with a large shield, you can't make attacks with your off hand/claw...it's occupied with the shield. I'm also leery on the entire idea of being able to stick a shield on a creature that doesn't have a shield slot...everyone has a body slot to fit armor, for the most part, but a shield? Can Wild even be put on a shield? He can buff the animals and they are still probably going to die in a round a pop...at most. And if he's sharing spells, they have to stay within 5' of him or lose the buffs...which is going to be next to impossible. I can imagine the druid trying to hide while everyone has a brilliant aura on... I'm not walking through a forest...I'm at best flying through it invisibly. I become visible when I'm about to shoot...not before. And I go invisible again after a volley, and move away. A Dragon does not have perfect manuverability, and it has a wingspan. You aren't going to be able to fly 5' above the ground and beat your wings...or fit thru trees of a woods. And exactly how am I going to miss the prescence of a howling windstorm moving through the forest and ripping it to shreds? And what exactly is this doing to your animal companions? Furthermore, how are your animal companions going to keep up with you? Once I pop my AMF item, odds are your Animal Companions are way far away..and if I've done any damage to you, you are most likely dead. Why would I have no magic items to help me? Excuse me? MDJ is not a Druid spell. True Seeing has a range of 120 feet. If he's that close, it's grappling time. Roll in contact poison, so any of the natural creatures that touch him die, and he leaves poison spread all around him when he goes walking? What? It's a good thing this guy has a good Fort save and can likely ignore the poison, but that Druid is now living death to his own creatures. Shadow terrain? That's nice, what if I wait three days, or just start setting big forest fires somewhere else? You can't MAKE me fight on your terrain unless you refuse to come out...and a druid has a big area to watch over. I CAN make you come out, particularly if you are Exalted. Shadow Blend is a concealment effect, which is completely negated by Seeking. Brilliant Aura...affects one creature at a time? You are definitely coming in with a huge amount of 3rd party stuff here...which is only proving my point. If you really start piling on the third party stuff, the Archer only gets better and better. At this point, the only thing I've got on him which is 3rd party is Splitting on the Bow, and Scorn off the WoTC site. VoP is effectively like taking Prestige Classes all by itself. By resorting almost exclusively to 3rd party spells and effects you are, in effect, making my argument for me. Using the Core Rules, you aren't making a viable Druid who so Roxorz the world for a Fighter/Order Archer. Heck, a straight Fighter Archer at this point might be a better build...a Figher/Ranger definitely would. Also, you DO leave an elemental vulnerability...so you aren't neutralizing all bursts. And these spells don't last all day. Most of them don't even last close to all day. And if you prefer to fight in dragonform, I'm sure there's some feats from the Draconomicon I could trot out to help kill you. And the kicker of the whole thing is, you don't have enough hit points in normal form to survive one volley of arrows...or in Dragon Form. Furthermore, you open up Plant Bane as something else I can take to do even more damage to you...and hit you more. Do I have to hunt you at night? of course not. Full Daylight is fine by me. Once I slaughter your pets and start setting the forest on fire (with a +1 flaming arrow if I have to...just hold and light stuff up!), you have to come out somehow and somewhere...and I don't have to wait in one place while you waste those wind spells blowing out flames. If you want to assume you are going to try to scry me, I'll have to spend the money on a Mind blank item. Okay, so I do. There, immune to scrying and to mental attacks. This isn't Base Druid ownage...this is Base Druid raid all the 3rd party books to become Uber ownage. And if we are raiding all the 3rd party books, I'm sure the Archer people here can really start building an uber archer. You are, in effect, not making a Druid here...you are making a Druid with the specific purpose of defeating this archer. So much of this build relies on being buffed, having the chance to buff, and casting spells which neutralize ranged attacks. Those things simply don't last all the time. You can buff up in your meld with stone, come back up, and I'm gone, leaving your dead animal friends behind and the forest on fire. And this archer isn't even Optimized. ===Aelryinth
J-A-R-N-O 10-19-05, 05:39 AM	You know what, the Freedom of movement from VoP is EX, so the druid always escapes grapple, even in AMF. That's sick. So the VoP druid can easily go near the archer, as he can run away even if the archer tries to kill him in melee range. But that's if he takes VoP, which I'm actually against. it's too limiting, as some spells have expencive material components. And some little items, like a Ring of invisibility can come very powerful. The druid can easily become outsider by Shapechange, as it makes him able to become any non-unique being. Wild armor is not visible while Wild shaped, and none of the buffs are visible to a naked eye. And detect magic has a range of 60ft. So it's not that easy to identify the druid. Your invisibility is moot, as the druid has the same means to see invisibility as you have. Well, if we assume the archer can get an AMF-item, why couldn't the druid get an item of MDJ? It would be stupid to set the forest on fire, as the druid can become immune to fire, magical and non-magical. He can easily keep on hiding in a burning forest. But this is getting, how would I say it, silly. What ever happens, there will not be a winner, only two losing sides. It's too hard to find out which character is better, as both specialize in different things, and excel in different situations and circumstances. As I said already, this is all about initiative, who sees who and who knows who is coming.
Master of the Wild 10-19-05, 07:38 AM	Even if this archer wins, he is specificly build to kill druids. If the druid wins, he just changes his spells tomorrow to slay a dragon instead...
Moon-Lancer 10-19-05, 08:24 AM	Once I pop my AMF item... lol. and just what is this amf item called? you can grapple too? show me that you can actualy get your strangth high enuff to even grapple my animal companion, and you might have something thier... however i dont think you have the gold for that, nor that points on a 32 point buy exalted feats are supernatural in nature. That doesent persay mean they go away in a anti magic field, in fact it dosent say they ARE supernatural abilitys, and it dosent go to illaberate what they mean by that passage. Might as well not be thier. if what you say is true, That means someone with vop can break thier vow in a amf. and thats just too funny. anyway, based on the fact you had no objections to the contest outlines, you would be fighting in a shadow landscape. But regardless, unless you post a build, you loose. I have shown you how a druid would win agest ANY archer. Now I am unsure but i think etherial creatures can see invisible creature, although i could be wrong. This druid wins unless you post your build. You may try to argue that but put your build where your mouth is. I dont think your build has enuff gold to have his arrows, his bow, his armor, the rings (two only), the ability to move faster then the druid, get a better hide, get a better spot, and get your strangth, and dex up to +30 AND your wisdom without makeing your con a ten and int even less, without going over your wealth limit or getting awsome rolls for stats. 32 point-buy thank you. poor manuverability doesent effect your flying hight, it only effects how fast you can move up or down, as well as your turning curcumfrence. well assumeing charicter knolage, how would you know that the wolves are the druids friands? without knolage nature, you cant figure out what one is the legondary wolf. post your build or your points hold no water.
michael_noah 10-19-05, 09:20 AM	Really, I know that the druid is hands down better, but crippling it with VoP is probably over the top.
Moon-Lancer 10-19-05, 09:29 AM	"Really, I know that the druid is hands down better, but crippling it with VoP is probably over the top." do you mean that i shouldent have used vop becuse its too powerfull, or that the fact the druid would probably win and a crippled it and it would still probably win is showing just how powerfull a druid is? Could you explain what you mean alittle further. the way you said it, it seems to have mixed meaning. by saying crippling that assumes the build is weaker then a normal druid but saying its over the top makes it seem like its unreasonably too powerfull with vop I just didn’t have the time to calculate gold so i went with vop. Allot of people say vop is broken for a druid, but i think that’s only for a druid at low level while at higher levels i think people believe it is under powered i do not know if this is true or not, but i think i have shown that this druid is a force to be reckoned with. It may not be able to take out another druid with eq, but it could take out most archers without a problem I know the weakness of this druid, but I know that it takes a ton of gold to compensate this for items, leaving most builds overall weaker then normal. the big one is limitation of rings. Sure you could use a ring of freedom of movement but that only leaves you another ring to work with (unless your a switcher but that takes up combat rounds) the other ring might be invisibility but then their is no way to fly. With a carpet, the carpit wouldn’t be invisible. You could use a helmet that protects from scrying, but that would use the slot for a handband of wisdom. You could get a cloak of displacement but then you wouldn’t be able to resist the spells very well. This is why i really want to see a build. it will be clear what is possible at a given moment. amf item (ring of spell storing)+ invisibility + freedom of movement is 3 rings. You could improve your spot with goggles but then your susceptible to all kinds of scrying because you cant use a helm to protect you (same slot) I believe the items you say you can use are not usable all the time at once. This is why i want to see your build, Show me the items you would use, and i will show you that this build can overcome it through sheer versatility of class features and spells prepared. I don’t think you have enough ranks for skills needed. I don’t think you can get a spot high enough to shoot as far as you say you can. Remember your build will be more heavily scrutinized because your build would be second, and thus building a build only to fight my build, while mine would be used agenst almost any class. It’s more of a protector build if a dm says you need something from the center of the forest... oh btw you have to kill the druid too. Remember, you can set stuff up in the forest the day before hand as well (before the land turns to shadow). I do want to make it fair. Take a while to look over my build. You will notice that some of the spells completely destroy a archer. You have to be able to win the first round of combat, the problem is that because of the shadow dragons abilities, you have a 50% chance of missing. Thus right off the bat, the build wins 50% of the time because the first spell cast would be storm rage and thus negate all other arrows that attack the druid. At that point you could try to run as you suggested, but but this Druid moves WAY faster then almost any other build, remember he can hop on a phantom stag and the druid is also etherial. heck the 2 phantom stags move 1200 feet on a run action. And you can’t touch them without ghost touch, and that’s more gold down the drain. Also remember, this druid can see you regardless of invisibility if you miss the concealment. and suppose you go compleatly out of your way to find a book with broken eq that specificly kills my build, well that doesent prove that an archer is better then a druid, just that the eq negates a druids power in some way. But i think i have most angels taken careof.
michael_noah 10-19-05, 11:54 AM	Sorry about the lack of clarity. What i meant was that it was over the top in a rubbing-the-archer's-face-in-the-dirt sort of way. Too mean. VoP makes the druid a lot weaker than he would be with equipment. You could very well still win, though. I was, in fact, doing the same sort of thing in describing a core-only druid.
OGS-Remix 10-19-05, 12:14 PM	Why would I have no magic items to help me? Excuse me? MDJ is not a Druid spell. A druid can get MDJ by getting a ring of spell storing; just like how you might get an AMF field. If the druid MDJ's you; you lose. If you MDJ the druid, he still has all his spells and can still beat you.
eRaz0r 10-19-05, 12:26 PM	This is more than silly. Yes, the VoP druid can't shapechange, and even Eschew Materials won't help (it only eliminates non-expensive materials anyway). Good catch. So the Core Druid is going to be stronger. Speaking of core, this AMF item you keep referring to.. I still don't see it anywhere on any item list in the Core, or even expanded lists. It's a custom item you've created and it is the crux of your build. <Edit : well there's the Ring of Spell Storing, Major for 200,000gp. That's a lot of money when you've spent most of it on Bow and arrows. > Your archer is effectively useless without it. Oh, but all you need is the bow - that's right you've said that. However, every time you mention the bow and arrows, everyone else points out that a druid has a very good defense against the bow - all the wind-controlling spells, and Repel Wood, and a bunch of other things. Every response you post seems to be "Well, I'll just get another magic item". Post. Your. Build. Spend all your 20th level gold... no more. The Druid should do the same. 3.5 Core only (complete books are obviously in, because OOTBI is in Complete Warrior). I like how you say "Well I'll just pick up a feat from Draconomicon to counter that". Feats don't grow on trees, and you can't simply retro-actively re-create your character to face your current foe. The power of the druid is that you don't know what he might be capable of. Will he have a bunch of wind spells memorized ? Will he be concentrating on Earth control? Will he shapechange into a Solar, or use his Draconic Wildshape? Will he even *have* draconic wildshape? Maybe he went with something else instead. The archer, on the other hand, is predictable. He will use his bow. He'll have some special arrows, maybe even designed to affect me directly (with bane) and maybe he'll shore up some of his weaknesses with some Improved Grapple or magic items that give him mobility. But that's it. BTW - you still haven't shown how you can tell the difference between the druid and his animal companion and all the other animals in the forest. There could be several advanced animals in the forest. Is the Druid in Legendary Ape form? Is he a Dire Tiger? Is he a fieldmouse? A raven? The eagle soaring over head ? So you're flying, invisible through the forest. That's nice. The Druid is flying invisible through the forest too. Or maybe he's an ordinary squirrel sitting in a tree as you fly past. You'll never know. If you're searching for him, you've got an awful lot of ground to cover. And if you're setting fires, trying to draw him out, he can afford to wait. Fire's as natural as rain, and forest fires are part of the ecology. But you set a fire and he's got Commune with Nature to locate you with, after all, you've just declared you're around. Oh, but you've got a Mind Blank cast on you, by your friends.. so you're admitting that you can't win this without outside help, over and over again. Ring of Major SpellStoring (AMF) here, friendly Mind-Blank Wizard there - what, exactly does the Archer bring to this equation ? It's sad that you can't admit that the Druid has *any advantage at all*. Now I'm not saying that the archer is automatically toast. A smart player could get some things swinging his way with tactics and good preparation. But you keep waving your hands around saying that the druid has no chance. That's patently absurd.
CompleteSatori 10-19-05, 01:12 PM	Couple things here: One, VoP spellcasters can substitute expensive material components with XP, and there is a rate of exchange for xp vs gold included in the description of the feat. So the druid can still Shapechange, VoP or not. Two, (and this one is for Moonlancer, whos argument against it is feeble at best and not based on the 3.5 ruleset at all that I can see) Venomfire... A druid wildhshapes and changes type so that his Animal only spells (Align Fang, Magic Fang, Animal Growth, Natures Avatar etc) all affect him as if he were an animal, as well as negative effects (Invisibility to Animals, Charm Animal etc), also gaining the (Ex) Special Attacks of any form he Wildshapes into; why would a spell like Venomfire NOT affect him? He IS a Fleshraking dinosaur for all intents and purposes (or a snake or whatever venemous creature), and as long as he is casting the spell while he is in that form (via Natural Spell, a core feat), he will gain the effects of it! This is not a matter of opinion my friend, it is indeed strongly supported by the ruleset, and seems more than clear to those of us who are longtime optimizers (with an interest in rule mechanics and character design).
Lusden Veharo 10-19-05, 01:12 PM	I happen to dislike the VoP for challenge matches, and I hate the idea of a Druid needing to specialize anything he can't easily change-spells, primarily-toward ripping apart the piddling little archer. I also don't like using splatbooks that are frequently disallowed (BoED, anything 3.0), so I'll be steering clear of them regardless what you use. My assumptions are simple: We're in a natural setting, the Druid knows that somebody is after him but has no special reason to assume that the archer is the one, and the archer has prepared himself to destroy the Druid. For equipment, no custom items allowed, but you can find (and purchase) anything printed; allowing custom items opens up a huge grab bag, and you won't like the stuff that I create. I'll be using a 32 point buy, and the character aged at 20th level-if you want it to be earlier, fine; I'm simply limiting the effect of boosted int. So here's some basics that can be fleshed out into a full character if needed that help against the Ranger: Base race: Human Wild Shape form: Treant Stats: Str 29, Dex 8, Con 21, Int 14, Wis 36, Cha 14 Base physical stats are all 10. Armor/Shield: We don't need any Weapon: Treant has 2 slams at 2d6 + str damage each Armor Class: 10 (base) -1 (dex) -2 (size) + 13 (natural) +13 (wis) + 8 (armor) + 5 (deflection) = 46. Equipment of note: Headband of Wisdom +6 (36k), Tome of Understanding +5 (137.5k), Monk's Belt (13k), Ring of Protection +5 (50k), Bracers of Armor +8 (64k) Skills: Max out Spot, Survival, Know:Nature; you can max out 3 more Important Feats: Natural Spell, Spell Focus: Conjuration, Augment Summoning, Quicken Spell, Extend Spell; this leaves 3 free to play with. Shifting away from Core will change some of these. Also, please note that all these numbers are Core-only so far. I'll use things from any book you use, or book in a series (Complete, Races of, etc) if you enter a one of them; likewise, using any books from a campaign setting frees up every 3.5 book for that setting.
Prominence 10-19-05, 02:58 PM	Make him Venerable after 15th level druid, so you get +3 to your mental stats without losing your physical ones~
Moon-Lancer 10-19-05, 04:20 PM	well i guess it really is my opinion about venom fire, perhaps. Still its a really broken spell and i dont think it works well to show power in any way. If a whole build is based around it, it seems more likely that the power of the druid comes from that one spell rather then being a druid. Also it just breaks a unwritten rule of balance. That’s my opinion though. If people want, i can make a more core druid, although he is going to be more powerful because of it. I build the druid above because i really like the flavor of it, and it takes too much time to calculate items, but if that’s what needs to be done, that i will do it, but if their is no complaint, then I probably wont change it. I am hoping that the archer buys a starmantle cloak, because it won’t do much and its expensive. The build is really to show how a varied degree of spells wins agenst the archer. The stats are sub par, i know. Its weak and the wisdom could be 5 points higher with a tomb, and by logic i could have walked into a ant magic field and used a tomb according to people that say vows are supernatural. I say thats rubbish but that’s my opinion. I could have made the druid older, but again i didn’t. I could have done alot of things like green bound summoning, and that elemental summoning feat, but I didn’t. I Posted a build that i would actually play, and in a way i am (only level 9). I didn’t use too many source books, but I did use some. but a core only archer is a rouge or ranger or fighter. I don’t think they have what it takes so to make a comparable opponent. However in 3.0 their is lots of power for archers, and in complete warrior their is some. So i used allot of spells from complete divine because if someone is going to use ootbi, then its using complete warrior and i feel the complete books balance with echother. I also wanted to show that a druids power comes from versatility and the animal alies he can inlist. Treents, and Native creatures that become shadow guardians, and phantom stags, they alone I think could take out a archer, with the help of the druid directing them where to attack. Also i think shadow dragons just drip with flavor, so i used shadow landscape to take advantage of the dark forest setting. Anyway, I seemed to be the only me (at first) asking for real builds (so far no archer builds have surfaced) but I wanted people to see that a build needs to be compared to another build, rather then what eRaz0r was talking about. I tried to say what he said, it probably didn’t come out the way I wanted it too, but I am glad eRaz0r made it clear what was happening. Finally I wanted to show how versatile a druid can be without any items at all, and with only set abilities. I think I have done that, so I watch to see what archer build my surface. It may be my destroyer, but it will only be a destroyer of myself, and none others. I dont think i have made this build with too many source books. two are very common, (compleat books) one is so so common (draconomocon) and one is abit out of the way, but, if need be i can remove the stuff from wtc website (splinter bolt salt ray and kept strand and sudden stalagmight) and replace with suitable core spells like flame strike and 2nd level spells like more warp wood, tree shape and Fog Cloud. I wonder aelryinth, do you plan on makeing a core only archer build with classes that are only core? if not please dont make me feel like I have done wrong for using spells from 4 other books other then core. I havent even tuched forgotten realm feats and spells. Thats where it gets sick. Venom Fire, elemental summoning, and green bound summoning. oi... If you really want me to i can make a core only build but its going to get ugly with shape change... really ugly with all level 9 spells filled with shape change, that can last all day. I dont think you really want me to disegard flavor for power, i dont like to do that but i will if you feel shafted becuse of vop. You should have spoken up when i said i might use it.
monkmania 10-19-05, 04:28 PM	This is getting childish (no better word in my vocabulary, don't take offense, cause there is none meant) ... Just build and then find a judge and fight, so you'll know... It's like chess, you can never know until you're better than Kasparov... Plus there are dice rolls... Just play it :P hahaha, I have to agree the attitude of some people here is getting childish... I have to say I'm on the druid's side myself, though. By now, everyone is pretty settled into their arguments, and probably no one's willing to admit defeat... any bets on how many pages this thread is going to reach?
Kuroi Kenshi 10-19-05, 04:46 PM	Armor Class: 10 (base) -1 (dex) -2 (size) + 13 (natural) +13 (wis) + 8 (armor) + 5 (deflection) = 46. Don't forget that a monk's belt gives 1 AC in addition to wisdom, as level 5 monks get a +1 bonus to AC.
Moon-Lancer 10-19-05, 05:20 PM	I am sorry for acting childish if this comment was directed twards myself really i should learn to let things go. I hedged the wtc website spells, i love them but some people felt they were too powerfull so i changed them.
CompleteSatori 10-19-05, 05:38 PM	I am sorry for acting childish if this comment was directed twards myself really i should learn to let things go. I hedged the wtc website spells, i love them but some people felt they were too powerfull so i changed them. True, Kelpstrand + Sirines Grace ftw...
Lusden Veharo 10-19-05, 06:19 PM	Ah, Kuori, you're right. Barkskin is another +5 once our Druid is ready, so post-buff I'll have a 52. Any other Core-only ways you can think of?
Elvis Gone Warlock 10-19-05, 06:36 PM	I believe you're missing a +1 (insight) bonus for everyone's favorite item, the ioun stone.
aelryinth 10-19-05, 06:40 PM	Well, the thing here is, I haven't posted any garbonzo feats...because there really aren't any I can think of. All the cool archery stuff comes off of PrC's. I access two unique enchantments - Splitting (which is rather broken, I'll freely admit) and Scorn (which is Bane for classes and has 1E roots). Basically, the Archer comes down to a handful of feats for archers, and his gear. The strength of the Druid in this case is not so much his spell selection, because I don't have to stick around and endure his spells, duration is everything...and I generally don't have to worry about duration until I bother to attack. He buffs up...and I outwait the buffs. No, the strength is the feats that dovetail with the spells and defenses. The only way I can counter those is with specific magic items...and with +10 bows and +10 arrows, you can very quickly run out of stuff to put on arrows! There really isn't much in the Order of the Bow that is going to provide a threat to a Druid...Precision Damage is too short of range and doesn't provide enough damage fast enough to do the job. The Zen Archery not stacking means they aren't any more accurate then any other archer...nor do they do any more damage. So a better archer has high Dex and equally high Str, if possible. Then it comes down to magic items that shut down the metagame of movement and location...which are basically invisibility, anti-divinations, flight, and then the ability to attack at range. The Archer's core abilities become almost irrelevant in this case once you exhaust core feats, because that's not how you are going to fight a Druid. Letting him buff and shower you with spells is suicide. You leave the area while he's buffing and he gets to watch his spell durations leak out...then you come back and beat on him. If you have a way to cancel his spells at range, all the better...but that's arcane archer province, and their spellcasting ability tends to suck. Currently, you can't pay for someone to put level 20 Greater Dispels onto a sheaf of arrows for you...or they'd do the job nicely here. I've posted up front this is decidely a supoptimal build for everything but a DOT archer build...like in a seige...and even then the short range of the Precision Damage is a killer. but an archer with a good bow, movement/evasion, arrows, and smarts is by no means a foe to underestimate...and everyone here is underestimating him by a lot, poor build or no. Its all about that Bow and Arrows, baby. ==+Aelryinth
Kuroi Kenshi 10-19-05, 06:42 PM	Shapechange (solar) gives +21 natural armor, +6 dex, -1 size (and of course the 150 fly speed, perfect). Though, you can't have it up all day long like you can with wildshape or with extended barkskin...well, actually with a rod of greater extend metamagic, you could have it up for a little over six and a half hours a day at CL 20. For every CL increase, you get 20 more minutes. Depends on how you want to spend your money, I guess.
HamHam 10-19-05, 07:30 PM	The Archer's core abilities become almost irrelevant in this case once you exhaust core feats, because that's not how you are going to fight a Druid. Letting him buff and shower you with spells is suicide. You leave the area while he's buffing and he gets to watch his spell durations leak out...then you come back and beat on him. Again, a Druid will not sit there and wait for his durations to expire. He is going to come find you, and when he does, he will get a surprise round, and then you will be dead. Plus, at this point I don't think anyone cares if you stick to the OoTB build, just that you post something that might actually threaten a druid.
eRaz0r 10-19-05, 07:30 PM	Might I say, aelryinth, that your last post was your most reasonable-sounding (to me) so far. (IMHO). Thank you. All I needed to hear was you admitting that the druid wouldn't be a push over. Forgive me if I interpretted many of your earlier posts in that light, if that were not your intention. The thing is - it's not just "some Archer build" vs "some druid build". There *are* really good archer builds out there that would give the Druid pause, but the F10/OOTBI 10 isn't one of them (not without a lot of help from magic items that fill up the holes in his capabilities). That's all I was saying, and it seems, after a few misunderstandings, that we agree :) The druid has a big advantage, but circumstances can be contrived to take that advantage away, and an archer has to reach out and make those circumstances favour him if he is to win. (Unfortunately for him, that's actually really hard to do, and relies on help - usually from other spellcasters willing buff the archer in some way).
Lusden Veharo 10-19-05, 07:31 PM	aelryinth, I'm not limiting you to a Fighter 10/OotBI 10-go crazy with any 3.5, or non-updated 3.0, stuff you want. Kuori, that'll be the optimal shape to Shapechange into as an end form, but Treant seems to be superior as a constant form. There's plenty of them in a forest and they aren't easy to identify as creatures from a distance, plus they're immune to any and all precision damage. I'm hoping to find a way to get energy resistance going 24/7 while staying Core; sadly Persistant is out unless aelryinth takes something from the book/series (Persistant is CA or CD, right?) that it's' in.
michael_noah 10-19-05, 07:35 PM	An easy core-only armor boost - ride your companion. +4 cover whenever you want it. Or just stand next to a tree for +2.
Prominence 10-19-05, 07:35 PM	The strength of the Druid in this case is not so much his spell selection, because I don't have to stick around and endure his spells, duration is everything...and I generally don't have to worry about duration until I bother to attack. He buffs up...and I outwait the buffs. A big point you skimmed over is it's impossible for you to 'outwait the buffs' since most last hours (and with little sacrifice, all day with re-application). Their base run speed in wildshapes is faster than you, so you are not running. They have quicken spell anyway to keep up and keep buffing. They even have spells to reduce your movement. So all you're left with is +19 attack enhancements. Once the druid circumvents your means of damage, it's over. Not to mention there's Craft Contingency spell.
Moon-Lancer 10-19-05, 07:55 PM	Again, I am going to have to agree with eRaz0r aelryinth i said in my request for a contest of sorts that you could use prc like peerless archer and deepwood sniper. I made my build more for a stronger archer then the ootbi. I probably was to cocky, but i think i was doing that to tempt you into posting a build. I am very curious what’s out their in the way of archery. I hope their is no hard feelings. Some of your assumptions of how mechanics work like running away from buffs even though dragon flight is 150, and coming up with items that didn’t exist for an argument (amf) annoyed me but it’s all good. Silly things to get anoyed at anyway. Post your build when you are ready. If not, that’s cool. No pressure. Only make a build if you think you will have fun doing, as this is what d&d is about.
aelryinth 10-19-05, 11:48 PM	Shapechange doesn't let you change into an outsider, I believe. He can't really wildshape into something that can move faster then a Ring of Solar Wings, now, and if I'm launching an attack at 1000 feet away and turn invisible, exactly how is he going to track me and catch up to me and all that other stuff? You are making too many broad assumptions...I'm not going to be on foot like an idiot. I'm not going to sit around and wait for him to shower me with spells. If I have to wait for 6 hours, I can wait for 6 hours...it doesn't matter to me. The Druid doesn't need tactics once he's buffed...I AGREE with you. And so I will discretely remove myself from the area. He's not going to track me and I'm not going to engage him unless he's dumb enough to get into potential grapple range while airborne. WIldshape away...he just makes me do more damage to him with his wildshapes, it's not really a factor. If for some reason he has an unlimited fount of knowledge of super-optimal forms to shapechange into, I can outwait that...I don't have much choice if I want a chance now, right? Does the fact I have to play smart and the Druid can play stupid and still win mean that I'm doomed? No, it doesn't. As for posting a super-Optimal build, I'll leave it to the true experts on the boards...Snow Owl, or someone similar. Snow Owl's Mercy builds make it effectively come down to who can suprise the other...if the Druid doesn't have elemental immunities up at all times, he's toast. Furthermore, if I can make arrows that can Greater Dispel when they hit, this Druid hasn't got a prayer. I can smack him with FOUR of the things without much effort, and that will pretty much take out all of his buffs...and where will he be then? And always remember, that if it comes to one movement for range, the AMF/Grapple thing will take out that Druid. Heck, how bout a permanent AMF on a manacle collar sequestered inside a lead case? Once you grapple the druid, slap it on and he's helpless. Just because the the Druid has the power doesn't mean the Archer is going to roll over and die. C'mon...if this was your 20th level character, and you HAD to kill that druid, you'd find a way, would you not? You just can't use the charge-up-and-smite approach...you actually have to use some tactics. That's all I've been saying all along, and some people think that playing with tactics will make no difference. I have to beg to differ. ==Aelryinth
Lusden Veharo 10-20-05, 12:14 AM	Aelrinth, are you even going to TRY to post a build, or are you going to make claims and then utterly fail to back them up? Also, SnowOwl's builds are 3.0, not 3.5.
Kilo24 10-20-05, 12:21 AM	but an archer with a good bow, movement/evasion, arrows, and smarts is by no means a foe to underestimate...and everyone here is underestimating him by a lot, poor build or no. Its all about that Bow and Arrows, baby. ==+Aelryinth An archer can do a good bit of damage in a round from a range. I don't think anyone denies that. But when there are a few spells grant complete immunity to your main attack, I don't believe that it's an extraordinary claim to say that you're probably screwed. A lot of your claims are based on the assumption that an intelligent archer would try to gain surprise. That's true. But it's also true that an intelligent druid would try to gain surprise. What we're trying to measure here is not which build would beat the other if the druid was bound and gagged and flung off the cliff, or the archer started off at -9 hit points with the druid ready to give him a coup de grace with a ballista. With most duels, we're trying to measure combat abilities. What I could concieve of as potential, mostly fair duels: -Wild west style- They start off existence by facing eachother at a set distance. Initiative is probably going to determine who wins. An optimized archer would probably kill the druid in a round. The druid would become immune to your chief weapon given a round. If the archer then runs, it would become a war of attrition, not a straight duel and thus invalidate the point of the exercise. -Preparation- You know your opponent and are free to cast what spells/use whatever items you need before the fight. The druid would win- you said so much yourself. Again, running would not be permitted as it would take the focus off of straight combat. -Hunter/Seeker- You are let loose in the rather large arena and your opponent is as well. You don't know where each other are. If it was a matter of no invisibility/anti invisibility items, your archer would probably have hide and move silently maxed and thus a slight advantage at ranges beyond 120ft. The druid's Spot will be higher due to Wisdom. But within 120 ft, a druid will have used Embrace the Wild to get blindsight and will see you automatically, granting first shot to him; and almost certain victory. The druid has a better range with long range spells (1200 ft) than the ranger could hope to achieve with a bow. The druid can use divination spells. If the ranger has divination immunity, he's maxed out hide, and the druid hasn't shapechanged into a piercing immune form, it'll come to a fairly balanced game of luck. Otherwise, the druid has a better chance of winning. -War of attrition- Like the above, but expected to last for a while. As long as the archer doesn't spook and waste his one-shots, then he'll do well. After all, the druid will have to sleep and regain his spells. -Chance meeting- Fully healed, they walk into each other in a state of simultaneous surprise and start fighting. This throws in a lot more variables, particularly for the druid. How are his spells set up? He's probably got a shapechange, maybe a wind wall, but it's largely based on the preferences of the player. The archer loses scorn and maybe AMF. If the druid doesn't explicitly know that this guy's an archer (i.e. concealed bow, melee weapon present) he'll probably do something that won't kill the archer. The archer shoots the druid full of arrows, which probably will kill him. Being an archer requires less foreknowledge and his tactics won't- and for the most part, can't- vary. The druid is more based on forethought and planning by virtue of his choices. In this, I can't see a competent druid losing to anything but being unlucky when both participants in duel understand each other's character. In a "Well, then I use this!" atmosphere involving counter each other's the druid has far more versitility with the base class and the same with the equipment. On another note, Control Winds has a 800 ft range and failing the Fort save will catch you up in a tornado for 1d10 rounds, dealing 6d6 damage per and granting quite a few free shots for the druid, something that would inhibit your ability to stand back and wait it out. Also, the Book of Eldritch Might has an interesting item: the Headband of Reflected Arrows. The first three arrows shot at the wearer in the day are reflected with the same bonuses against the shooter. It also only costs 7,800 gold. I'll leave you to deliberate on the effects of that to your build.
Moon-Lancer 10-20-05, 12:52 AM	Shapechange doesn't let you change into an outsider, I believe. He can't really wildshape into something that can move faster then a Ring of Solar Wings, now, and if I'm launching an attack at 1000 feet away and turn invisible, exactly how is he going to track me and catch up to me and all that other stuff? You are making too many broad assumptions...I'm not going to be on foot like an idiot. I'm not going to sit around and wait for him to shower me with spells. If I have to wait for 6 hours, I can wait for 6 hours...it doesn't matter to me. The Druid doesn't need tactics once he's buffed...I AGREE with you. And so I will discretely remove myself from the area. He's not going to track me and I'm not going to engage him unless he's dumb enough to get into potential grapple range while airborne. WIldshape away...he just makes me do more damage to him with his wildshapes, it's not really a factor. If for some reason he has an unlimited fount of knowledge of super-optimal forms to shapechange into, I can outwait that...I don't have much choice if I want a chance now, right? Does the fact I have to play smart and the Druid can play stupid and still win mean that I'm doomed? No, it doesn't. As for posting a super-Optimal build, I'll leave it to the true experts on the boards...Snow Owl, or someone similar. Snow Owl's Mercy builds make it effectively come down to who can suprise the other...if the Druid doesn't have elemental immunities up at all times, he's toast. Furthermore, if I can make arrows that can Greater Dispel when they hit, this Druid hasn't got a prayer. I can smack him with FOUR of the things without much effort, and that will pretty much take out all of his buffs...and where will he be then? And always remember, that if it comes to one movement for range, the AMF/Grapple thing will take out that Druid. Heck, how bout a permanent AMF on a manacle collar sequestered inside a lead case? Once you grapple the druid, slap it on and he's helpless. Just because the the Druid has the power doesn't mean the Archer is going to roll over and die. C'mon...if this was your 20th level character, and you HAD to kill that druid, you'd find a way, would you not? You just can't use the charge-up-and-smite approach...you actually have to use some tactics. That's all I've been saying all along, and some people think that playing with tactics will make no difference. I have to beg to differ. ==Aelryinth thats cool, but thats not a build so its alot harder to judge. to shoot from 1000 feet away is a pritty awsome spot. How do you plan on getting a spot that high on a 32 point buy? 23+7 (23 ranks wis 14 to start, 5 magic tome, parapt of wis maybe?) thats 30+dice max 50 is pritty cool of a spot. to spot a druid that is not hideing, you could only fire at 500 feet not 1000 with a spot of 50. But if the druid is hideing take 50 and subtract it from the hide of the druid, with forest fold. thats about 40 with an average roll. even if you do spot the druid, it would be 100 feet away, (10 spot check left over for range) and thats inside the range of some of the druid attack spells, and true sight. More then likely the druid would see you first. remember i compared a basic archer that rolls a 20 to spot the druid i posted, compaired to his hide if he rolls a 10 and isent even using any wildshape to enhance his hide, like a desmodu scout bat (mm2). If you wanted to get a parapat of wisdom that would go on the head slot i think, but if i recall the helm that protects from scry is the same slot a So you could improve your wisdom, giving you greater range, your you let the druid scry on you and get the upper hand. Both are not very attractive proposition I would like to know of this amf item. The druid I posted has many ways to get to a archer before being seen the druid just needs to get into range of 120 feet (true sight). at that point the druid can move 150 feet and cast a spell to distroy the archers bow. (300 feet if on a stag) 1 ride a phantom stag while etherial, jump out after the druid finds the archer 2 use forest fold to hide to get right next to the archer. 3 use that level 5 spell tree stride to hide in a tree and come out unexpectedly 4 use an animal to find the archer. archer may or may not know that this animal is on the druids side. 5 scy to find location of archer, use tactic 1-3 remember the druid only has to get within 120 feet of the archer to see that he is invisable. I have shown that a archer will probably only get 100 feet of range on the druid, on a 20 for spot. aelryinth i know you can post a build. You know so much in the way of items it would seem, you must show me your mastery. what your doing is trying to argue. do or do not, there is no try. ahha im such a plagurist. and a poor speller.... hah now you cant use it agenst me.. mwahhhaha... um wow its late. ta ta.
michael_noah 10-20-05, 08:44 AM	Shapechange doesn't let you change into an outsider, I believe. He can't really wildshape into something that can move faster then a Ring of Solar Wings, now, and if I'm launching an attack at 1000 feet away and turn invisible, exactly how is he going to track me and catch up to me and all that other stuff? You are making too many broad assumptions...I'm not going to be on foot like an idiot. I'm not going to sit around and wait for him to shower me with spells. If I have to wait for 6 hours, I can wait for 6 hours...it doesn't matter to me. The Druid doesn't need tactics once he's buffed...I AGREE with you. And so I will discretely remove myself from the area. He's not going to track me and I'm not going to engage him unless he's dumb enough to get into potential grapple range while airborne. WIldshape away...he just makes me do more damage to him with his wildshapes, it's not really a factor. If for some reason he has an unlimited fount of knowledge of super-optimal forms to shapechange into, I can outwait that...I don't have much choice if I want a chance now, right? Does the fact I have to play smart and the Druid can play stupid and still win mean that I'm doomed? No, it doesn't. As for posting a super-Optimal build, I'll leave it to the true experts on the boards...Snow Owl, or someone similar. Snow Owl's Mercy builds make it effectively come down to who can suprise the other...if the Druid doesn't have elemental immunities up at all times, he's toast. Furthermore, if I can make arrows that can Greater Dispel when they hit, this Druid hasn't got a prayer. I can smack him with FOUR of the things without much effort, and that will pretty much take out all of his buffs...and where will he be then? And always remember, that if it comes to one movement for range, the AMF/Grapple thing will take out that Druid. Heck, how bout a permanent AMF on a manacle collar sequestered inside a lead case? Once you grapple the druid, slap it on and he's helpless. Just because the the Druid has the power doesn't mean the Archer is going to roll over and die. C'mon...if this was your 20th level character, and you HAD to kill that druid, you'd find a way, would you not? You just can't use the charge-up-and-smite approach...you actually have to use some tactics. That's all I've been saying all along, and some people think that playing with tactics will make no difference. I have to beg to differ. ==Aelryinth except that it enables you to assume the form of any single nonunique creature (of any type) from Fine to Colossal size. I don't know what a ring of solar wings does. I'm going to guess it let's you fly like a solar. The druid can fly like one, too. As has been pointed out numerous times, you can't see the druid from 1000 feet away. Say you do launch an attack - how do you turn invisible instantly before the druid reacts? You apparently have a very good wizard friend who casts mind blank for you. Ok. The druid has a very good wizard friend who casts gate for him. If you do run away and wait, and the druid can't find you... guess what. You can't find the druid either. The best you get in this situation is a draw. As we've already pointed out, the AMF is not really going to help. Weather, companion, and some spells are not even affected. And as others pointed out, the druid can just have his friendly mage cast MDJ for him. We have never said that the archer should roll over and die, we've just said it's an unfair contest. If the battle were played out hundreds of times, the archer would win some of them, simply because he got lucky, went first, happened to hit with all his attacks, and the druid happened to not already be immune to those attacks.
Moon-Lancer 10-20-05, 09:23 AM	the ring of solar wouldent really work becues the druid could hop on his phantom stag (cd) and have a fly speed of 300 while being etherial in his persute of the archer. Something to take note of, in the faq (page 13), Exalted Feats ARE exactly like supernatural feats, however ex abilities from vop are still ex abilites and stickaround in a anti magic field. I added this becuse earlyer in my post i said something about this becuse i had no info and the boed book was not very clear how vop and anti magic fields work if the feat was supernatural but alot of the abilties were ex.
g23armani 10-20-05, 02:20 PM	The druid and archer walk into an interview. Interviewer: "So, archer, what do you do, anyway?" Archer: "I hunt 20th level druids." Interviewer: "What do you mean, 'I hunt 20th level druids', don't you have any other skills?" Archer: "Well, I'm only mediocre at other things, because I spent all my 20th level gold on random magic items that allow me to overcome my numerous weakness vs. a druid opponent..." Interviewer: "hmm...ooookay. Druid, what do you do?" Druid: "Lets see, I tank, heal, scout, nuke enemies, control the battlefield. I'm a great summoner...and did I mention I kill 20th level archers specifically designed to kill me 90% of the time?"
CompleteSatori 10-20-05, 10:00 PM	Interviewer: Druid, you are hired. Archer get the hell out of here you one trick pony.