Post/Author/DateTime	Post
diphycue 01-04-06, 04:34 PM	I'd like input on a 20 ECL character, but instead of being mostly levels, I only want ONE hit die or class level, having the other 19 ECL be LA. So, what templates, races and so on would be good for a +19 LA? Also, don't worry about equipment, just the LA.
Lavis Knight 01-04-06, 04:37 PM	I'm not sure if they ever listed an LA for it but the Paragon from the ELH would be my choice.
Kresalak 01-04-06, 04:41 PM	I'm not sure if they ever listed an LA for it but the Paragon from the ELH would be my choice. I have heard between +12 and +15 for that one. But one thing: THIS IS NOT A GOOD IDEA. You will be horribly weak compared to any other level 20 character. You really shoudln't have more then an upper maximum of +3 or +4 LA. I suppose if you must, Paragon does give you bonuses that might help you survive.
diphycue 01-04-06, 04:50 PM	It'll need to be survivable, if at all possible. Mostly, this is a curiosity. I don't have the ELH, btw, so unless the paragon is in the SRD I won't be able to access it. :-( I've got the Complete series, though, Draconomicon, the Core books, XPH, LM, LoM, many of the Dragon mags, FF, Underdark, Races of Faerun, Eberron CS, Magic of Faerun, Forgotten Realms CS, Faiths and Pantheons, SS, and some others... Nothing third party, please. :-)
Caelic 01-04-06, 04:55 PM	Survivable isn't going to happen, if you're strict about the 1 hit die cap. Templates can do a lot, but they're not all-powerful.
diphycue 01-04-06, 05:02 PM	I was thinking that it would HAVE to have regeneration and probably be undead too... borrowing from the build on the main wotc d&d site...the one that's immune to all damage.
Kresalak 01-04-06, 05:17 PM	Regeneration requires a Con score. Undead lack a Con score. Undead cannot have regeneration. The one on the WoTC website does not follow the RAW.
diphycue 01-04-06, 05:30 PM	Except, that as it is a WoTC build it is legal, and the new supercedes the old. Therefore, it is safe to assume that since an official source says you can do it, then the old rule of needing a Con score no longer applies.
catharz 01-04-06, 05:30 PM	Best way I can think of is a Half-Dragon (LA+3) Paragon (LA+11) Troll (LA+5) who has suffered 5 level drains (lost negative levels). 1 HD, LA+19. You'll preobably drop below -10 HP every encounter, buy you'll have high enough saves o avoid some SoDs, and you'll regenerate back.
Caelic 01-04-06, 05:35 PM	One Holy Word will still drop that character, though, Catharz (his SR isn't all that good.) Heck, one SLEEP will drop that character, I think.
P33KAJ3W 01-04-06, 05:36 PM	Except, that as it is a WoTC build it is legal, and the new supercedes the old. Therefore, it is safe to assume that since an official source says you can do it, then the old rule of needing a Con score no longer applies. Only if its in a foren language.
Kresalak 01-04-06, 05:40 PM	Except, that as it is a WoTC build it is legal, and the new supercedes the old. Therefore, it is safe to assume that since an official source says you can do it, then the old rule of needing a Con score no longer applies. If the build was in an official errata, that would be true. However, the creature in question was part of an article, not an errata. It was a mistake on the part of the writer- without a Con score, Regen turns into Fast Healing.
Lo77o 01-04-06, 05:45 PM	Drow Feral, Mineral Warrior, Half Red Dragon, Half Blue Dragon, Half Black Dragon, Half White Dragon, Half Fiend. That should be one bad ass drow comparedt to the other 1hd drows round him..
diphycue 01-04-06, 05:56 PM	Ok, now that's good to know... so what are some ways to get high SR, a con score, immunity to nonlethal damage, and immunity to fatigue? With LA not HD? Could pick up a mantle of Epic Spell Resistance, that's SR 40... so...about the others...
Sci 01-04-06, 06:04 PM	Ok, now that's good to know... so what are some ways to get high SR, a con score, immunity to nonlethal damage, and immunity to fatigue? With LA not HD? Could pick up a mantle of Epic Spell Resistance, that's SR 40... so...about the others... You're not gonna get decent SR without some hit dice. Most of the creatures with SR that are playable w/level adjustments are usually SR just over 10 + hit dice.
diphycue 01-04-06, 06:14 PM	Hence the Mantle of Epic SR...Or could always go for something that uses (Ex) abilities and has an amulet of anti-magic aura.
Vikjunk 01-04-06, 06:19 PM	One way of getting around the regeneration problem is if you have Dragon Magazine #313, it has Half-Undead templates. One of the templates is the Gheden which grants the creature the Dead Nerves special quality which makes it so that it is unaffected by nonlethal damage among other things. It also gives you immunity to energy drain so it will be difficult for a DM to kill your character. It would be fun to screw with a DM by trying to play a Feral Gheden War Troll. It would have to be a 20 level campaign or above since it’s ECL 20 but it would be fun to see a DM try take the character out.
Kessalin Talira 01-04-06, 06:26 PM	Don't count on Paragon... no matter how I work it, it still doesn't come out to anything below +20 LA. It's TOO strong.
diphycue 01-04-06, 06:28 PM	ok, Gheden would work well... give it the Troll Blood feat...half red/ half black dragon... Any way to make it immune to fatigue?
Sci 01-04-06, 06:28 PM	One way of getting around the regeneration problem is if you have Dragon Magazine #313, it has Half-Undead templates. That's just sick. I mean seriously, who on Earth puts in their backstory "Well my character's dad was a necrophiliac and his mom a wight with a heart of gold..."
diphycue 01-04-06, 06:31 PM	I don't have access to Paragon anyway.
catharz 01-04-06, 06:35 PM	That's just sick. I mean seriously, who on Earth puts in their backstory "Well my character's dad was a necrophiliac and his mom a wight with a heart of gold..." Somebody trying to make an ECL 20 character with LA+19 and a snowball's chance in hell? Anyway, how about a ghost? they 'die,' but they come back. LA+5 right there, throw in whatever other templates you need to make up the difference.
diphycue 01-04-06, 06:36 PM	That's just sick. I mean seriously, who on Earth puts in their backstory "Well my character's dad was a necrophiliac and his mom a wight with a heart of gold..." Well...I'm currently playing a Lichloved True Necromancer (He recently became a Lich, but that didn't effect what he USED to do with his corpses)
diphycue 01-04-06, 06:38 PM	Somebody trying to make an ECL 20 character with LA+19 and a snowball's chance in hell? Exactly! Actually, I could easily make it a child of my current character...interesting way to get a cohort...
Kresalak 01-04-06, 06:46 PM	Well...I'm currently playing a Lichloved True Necromancer (He recently became a Lich, but that didn't effect what he USED to do with his corpses) When I played a Lich, his hypothetical reponse to the Lichloved feat was either A)"How can I be vomiting without a stomach!?" or B) "Necrophilia makes the zombie Jesus cry." But honestly, at a certain point (the number 3, I believe), HD becomes more important then LA. This is like multiclassing with classes that don't go well together- it just doesn't work.
diphycue 01-04-06, 06:59 PM	Of course, I know HD or Class levels are better than LA after a point...but I'm not wanting the best 20 ECL build, just a viable +19 LA 1 HD build. :-)
Kresalak 01-04-06, 07:06 PM	I'm not sure if even that is viable, actually. Of course, I have no doubt enough templates would allow for enough ability to run away to survive.
SoulGamit 01-04-06, 07:33 PM	You basically are going to have to be undead, just to survive cloudkill.
diphycue 01-04-06, 07:45 PM	+1 Gheden, +3 Half-Red Dragon, +3 Half-Black Dragon... that covers +7 LA, make the 1st level Feat be Troll Blood... that makes all damage immunity...still need +12 LA, and fatigue immunity, could go with an amulet of anti-magic to avoid spells, though I'd prefer just a high SR or spell immunity...maybe an awakened golem of some kind?
Caelic 01-04-06, 07:47 PM	Immune to Cloudkill, yes...and just waiting for a 3rd level Cleric of Pelor to come along and reduce you to dust with one turn attempt. :)
diphycue 01-04-06, 07:51 PM	Well, yes, there is the cleric aspect... but I'm sure with enough bolstering from a necromancer, or just accepting that as a flaw of the design...:-)
PhoenixInferno 01-04-06, 08:13 PM	The first thing we should do is determine what HD based effects can insta-kill you. Spells like Holy Word, Cloudkill and Finger of Death can start the list. Once this list is built, then we can evaulate whether appropriate templates can be used to protect or mitigate these effects.
diphycue 01-04-06, 08:20 PM	Sounds good...
HotSake 01-04-06, 08:21 PM	Wasn't there a ruling that gaining immunity to nonlethal damage also turns regeneration into fast healing?
diphycue 01-04-06, 08:33 PM	Not that I know of...though it is possible. Again, I figure that anything that WoTC puts up, whether it be in an article or not, is official until otherwise stated, and they have put up a build that has an undead troll that still has regeneration.
Kresalak 01-04-06, 08:36 PM	Wasn't there a ruling that gaining immunity to nonlethal damage also turns regeneration into fast healing? Yes. That is true. So undead troll=undead with fast healing.
HotSake 01-04-06, 08:37 PM	It got talked about a while back, on these boards. I think. Go go Gadget Google! edit: Google has failed me. Apparently, it was a Sage ruling that Regeneration became fast healing if you had no Con score or if you were immune to nonlethal damage.
diphycue 01-04-06, 09:05 PM	Ok, then... needs to have a Con score and DR vs. Nonlethal damage... any ideas?
terulian 01-04-06, 09:10 PM	Making the base race Air Gensai (FRCS) would work for Cloudkill, seeing as that enables him to never need to breathe. Assuming we can pull this off... Half-black dragon, half-red dragon, half-blue dragon, half-ogre, half-golem (iron), and that's where it stops aside from Air Gensai, cuz I dunno the LA on half-golem. However it would seem that half-golem allows for immunity to most, if not all, spells.
Vikjunk 01-04-06, 09:14 PM	That's just sick. I mean seriously, who on Earth puts in their backstory "Well my character's dad was a necrophiliac and his mom a wight with a heart of gold..." Most Half-Undead are the result of the mother being turned undead while pregnant, in the rare cases they child will somehow survive. Fetch's (Half-incorporeal undead) are the only one that might have resulted in Necrophiliac when a God takes pity on a woman and lets her bare the child of the spirit of her decided lover. While Gheden's (Half-Mindless Undead) are the result of a necromancer's experiments or involvement of an evil god. It is also noted that it is also possible for a creatures can also be the result of a botched resurrection. So my character could be a Gheden because the shaman of the tribe messed up when trying to bring him back when he fell in the battlefield.
runestar 01-04-06, 09:57 PM	What's the prereqs of death knight? I recall it grants immunity to turning, for a +5LA.
Vikjunk 01-04-06, 10:05 PM	It got talked about a while back, on these boards. I think. Go go Gadget Google! edit: Google has failed me. Apparently, it was a Sage ruling that Regeneration became fast healing if you had no Con score or if you were immune to nonlethal damage. The thing is I've heard that Sage has said if you were immune to energy types the Regeneration take normal damage from you it becomes fast healing and now that nonleathal damage same. I’ve yet to see anyone point out which Dragon Magazine has these rulings so I would like to see someone show me before going by it since there are too many cases were someone just remembered wrongly or it was just hear say.
BelRex 01-04-06, 10:15 PM	I don't have access to Paragon anyway. Click on the link to the SRD and look under Epic Monsters G-W. It's in there.
neilthrun 01-04-06, 10:29 PM	Undead is deffinately a possibilty. After deciding the undead creature type, apply Spellstiched (CArcane), Swarmshifter(LM), and Evolved Undead as many times as needed to reach ECL 20. Throw in half illithid, or half troll for good measure.
SigmaJargon 01-04-06, 10:36 PM	Half-Celestial Paragon Black Ethergaunt that has been level drained to remove 15 HD. Still casts as a 17th level wizard (with insane stat modifiers, so you won't ever be low on spells!) and has several nice abilities to help you survive despite your horrible lack of hit die.
diphycue 01-04-06, 11:07 PM	*going to look up Paragon* suh-weeet...
diphycue 01-04-06, 11:30 PM	Ok, what is the official LA of Paragon creature? And why is the ability score increase odd numbers? All other templates and races have even pluses...
SigmaJargon 01-04-06, 11:34 PM	Ok, what is the official LA of Paragon creature? And why is the ability score increase odd numbers? All other templates and races have even pluses...The official LA of Paragon is a bit fuzzy. Here we usually derive it by observing that a Paragon Mind Flayer has an ECL of 26 according to the ELH. As a normal Mind Flayer has an ECL of 15, this indicates that the additional level adjustment added by the template is +11. As to the odd ability score increases, there is no answer. It was just the whim of the designers, apparently.
diphycue 01-04-06, 11:43 PM	Well, that's F'ed up too... cuz it says it is a +15 CR, and a Mind Flayer is CR 9... so shouldn't it be a CR 24, not 26?
runestar 01-05-06, 12:26 AM	Actually, a mind flayer is cr8, paragon adds +15cr, for a final cr of 23. cr and LA are 2 different things. Also, since ELH is a 3.0 book, is it appropriate to use ECL15 for mind flayer(which was coined only in SS)? Prior to that, was there any other earlier source that suggested any other ECLs for the mind flayer? I am guessing with the trend in 3.0, the ECL should be much lower than 15, which means the LA of the paragon template would be higher than +11.
BelRex 01-05-06, 01:01 AM	The epic boards generally use an LA of +16-+18. If you are going to be a spellcaster..it's usually lower, because of what it takes away.
diphycue 01-05-06, 02:34 AM	Well, Assuming +11 LA for Paragon, this is what I've tentatively come up with...using rolled stats of 17 12 15 12 15 13, in that order. Also, using +1 LA for Half-Ogre from SS, because I haven't seen official errata on that. Half-Ogre Half-Red Dragon Half-Black Dragon Gheden Paragon Barbarian 1 Large Dragon (Augmented Giant) HD 1d12+28 (40 hp) Init +6 Speed 120', Fly 240' (Average) AC 51 (10, +13 Nat, +12 Insight, +12 Luck, +6 Dex, -1 Size, -1 Flaw), Touch 38, Flat Footed 45 BAB/Grapple +1/+29 Attack 2 Claws +51/+51 (+1 BAB, -1 Size, +24 Str, +25 Luck, +2 Beast Claws), Bite +44 (+1 BAB, -1 Size, +24 Str, +25 Luck, -5 Secondary attack) Damage 2 Claws 1d6+1d6+46 (+24 Str, +20 Luck, +2 Beast Claws), Bite 1d8+32 (+12 Str, +20 Luck) Space/Reach 10'/10' SA Breath Weapons DC36, (Greater Dispel Magic, Haste, See Invisibility) 3/day, Detect Mindless Undead SQ Darkvision 60', Low-light vision, Immunity (Acid, Fire, Sleep, Paralysis, Nonlethal, Stunning, Massive Damage, Fear, Confusion, Energy Drain), Call of Undeath 3%, Detect as Undead, Fortification 50%, Fatigued in Sunlight, Necrotic Life, Slow Aging, Vulnerable to Holy Water, Vulnerable to Turning, +2 Saves vs. (Poison, Disease, Necromancy), Dead Nerves, Cold Resistance 10, DR 10/Epic, SR 47, Fast Healing 20, Regeneration 1, Epic Natural Weapons, +10 All saves, +10 All skill checks, -8 (Open Lock, Sleight of Hand, fine motor skills), Rage 1/day, +4 Intimidate, Fast Movement Saves Fort +25, Ref +16, Will +20 Abilities Str 58, Dex 23, Con 36, Int 27, Wis 30, Cha 26 Skills Literacy, Climb +38, Intimidate +26, Jump +38, Handle Animal +22, Listen +20, Survival +24, Swim +38, Spot +18, Ride +20, Speak (Common, Giant, Orc, Dwarf, Elf, Halfling, Gnome, Undercommon, Terran, Aquan, Ignan, Auran, Abyssal, Infernal, Draconic) Feats Endurance, Diehard, Toughness, Troll Blood, Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Sunder Flaws Vulnerable, Inattentive Alignment Neutral ECL 20 CR 22 Possessions: Beast Claws, Clothing Ok...what do you think?
Save-vs-DM 01-05-06, 04:05 AM	Half Dragon (Red) +3, Spellwarped +3, Vivacious +5, Petal +2, Half Celestial +4, Phrenic +2, Spellwarped +3, Vivacious +5, Woodling +3 This nets you: Str --, Dex+16, Con +12, Int +12, Wis +4, Cha +16 A Deflection bonus to armor class equal to Charisma modifier (at least +5) Type: Tiny Incorporeal Outsider Damage Reduction 5/cold iron and slashing Spell Resistance 12 Spell Absorption (Page 163 of MMIII) Plant Immunities Fast Healing 5 Heals allows within 10 feet 1 hit point a round Entangle 1/day Sleep Songs at will You're a psionic creature defensive precgnition 3/day force screen 1/day That should about do it... Cheers, Save vs DM
ArochanoX 01-05-06, 07:13 AM	Half red-dragon changes type to dragon, so you can't apply any more half dragon templates to it. Unless you apply something like pseudonatural template to it that changes its type. paragon demigod sounds a nasty combo that could be tried.
Lo77o 01-05-06, 07:57 AM	“Half-dragon” is an inherited template that can be added to any living, corporeal creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature). So unless a half-dragon becomes either non-living, or non corporeal i dont see why you cant add several half-dragon templates.
runestar 01-05-06, 08:08 AM	Half dragon can be tacked onto dragons. :) In fact, the generally accepted solution for offsprings of 2 different coloured dragons is to add the half-dragon template of one of the dragons to the other dragon type.
diphycue 01-05-06, 10:55 AM	Where are Petal, Spellwarped, Vivacious, and Woodling from? And, while you can add half-dragon to regular dragons I hate doing that, cuz why would two dragons mating give you pluses to stats like that? The way I do it is actually build, kind of an average of the two dragons. Have a really good, full age progression, for a half-green/half-gold dragon. Anyhow, that's a bit off topic...
tsuyoshikentsu 01-05-06, 11:42 AM	That's just sick. I mean seriously, who on Earth puts in their backstory "Well my character's dad was a necrophiliac and his mom a wight with a heart of gold..." Me. Just to see the look on my DM's face when he reads, "Wight with a heart of gold." Well...I'm currently playing a Lichloved... Lich Fail will save versus disturbing image. Am now nauseated for 1d4 rounds. When I played a Lich, his hypothetical reponse to the Lichloved feat was either A)"How can I be vomiting without a stomach!?" or B) "Necrophilia makes the zombie Jesus cry." He obviously wasn't getting any. And while you can add half-dragon to regular dragons I hate doing that, cuz why would two dragons mating give you pluses to stats like that? The way I do it is actually build, kind of an average of the two dragons. Have a really good, full age progression, for a half-green/half-gold dragon. The way you do it, the dragons are stronger than one species but weaker than another. The half-dragon template method crates a hybrid that is better than BOTH species, which is a lot of times the case in genetics.
Mr. Dog 01-05-06, 12:21 PM	There is another precedent for a specific type of undead with regeneration here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20030628a) Undeath (Ex): By embracing this path, the dread champion becomes an undead creature. He becomes immune to poison, sleep, paralysis, polymorphing, stunning, disease, death effects, and necromantic effects. He also ignores mind-influencing effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects), but he is still subject to psionic combat. Dread champions are also not subject to critical hits, subdual damage, ability damage, ability drain, or energy drain. He has no Constitution score and is therefore immune to any effect requiring a Fortitude save (unless it affects objects). A dread champion uses his Charisma modifier when making Concentration checks. As an undead, a dread champion is no longer healed normally. He requires negative energy (such as an inflict wounds spell) to heal, though regeneration and fast healing effects work normally. (Emphasis mine)
diphycue 01-05-06, 12:32 PM	Sweet... though I'm going to avoid making it undead, that way I don't have to worry about clerics. As for the half-dragon issue, the problem with adding a template to a normal dragon type is you don't get any of the special abilities of the parent dragon of the half-type template...I'd rather keep the majority of the spell like abilities rather than a strength increase.
Ph0eNiX 01-05-06, 01:42 PM	Not sure why nobody mentioned the Curst from Lost Empires of Faerun? With the money available to an ECL20 character, it would be fairly easy to get equipment that removes the threat of effects such as remove curse (though it would take a little time for many villains to realize what they are up against - maybe after the second or third time you come back), and many of the effects that can destroy your whole body. Once those are out of the way, you got SR, and fast healing, all the immunities of undeath, immune to clerical turning/rebuking/destroying/commanding, and the "unkillable" trait.
diphycue 01-05-06, 02:00 PM	Unfortunately I don't have access to that supplement, so I don't know anything about the Curst.
diphycue 01-05-06, 03:26 PM	And, I'm still curious about the Petal, Spellwarped, Vivacious, and Woodling templates...where are those from?
diphycue 01-05-06, 05:05 PM	Thanks for all your help guys, you've given me several ideas...anyone else have anything? :-)
Ph0eNiX 01-05-06, 09:06 PM	And, I'm still curious about the Petal, Spellwarped, Vivacious, and Woodling templates...where are those from? Monster Manual 3 (Except for Vivacious Creature, which appears in the Planar Handbook)
diphycue 01-05-06, 10:25 PM	Ahhh, thank you...I need to pick up one of those.
Sae Cael Oanar 01-05-06, 10:53 PM	Half-black dragon, half-red dragon, half-blue dragon, half-ogre, half-golem (iron), and that's where it stops aside from Air Gensai, cuz I dunno the LA on half-golem. However it would seem that half-golem allows for immunity to most, if not all, spells. whoa, thats six halves, obviously at least three characters combined
diphycue 01-05-06, 10:57 PM	Where are the half-golems listed at? I'll have to look for them.
Vikjunk 01-05-06, 11:46 PM	Where are the half-golems listed at? I'll have to look for them. They're in Monster Manual 2.
diphycue 01-06-06, 12:42 AM	Darn, I was afraid of that... ex-girlfriend stole my MM2...I'll have to see if I can find another one...
Raven Dark 01-06-06, 02:05 AM	If it hasn't been said already, go with the Curst template (LOST EMPIRES OF FAERUN) and then follow up with that other undead template from Libris Mortis that stacks with itself a bunch of times. I think that will make you pretty much unkillable.
SigmaJargon 01-06-06, 02:22 AM	You don't have to hurry. Half-golems do not have an LA, and are not meant for use by player characters.
diphycue 01-06-06, 01:53 PM	Well, MM2 was done before they started putting LA on playable creatures...so who knows? I'll assume LA=CR increase until otherwise told... Other than that, I don't have access to anything with Curst in it, and so it's not an option...
gabrion 01-06-06, 02:42 PM	Well, MM2 was done before they started putting LA on playable creatures...so who knows? I'll assume LA=CR increase until otherwise told... Other than that, I don't have access to anything with Curst in it, and so it's not an option... MMII has an online update that includes LA when applicable.
P33KAJ3W 01-06-06, 03:33 PM	Well, MM2 was done before they started putting LA on playable creatures...so who knows? I'll assume LA=CR increase until otherwise told... Other than that, I don't have access to anything with Curst in it, and so it's not an option... I am telling you otherwise.