Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tetsubo 08-21-05, 07:22 AM	I haven't added the flavor text yet, but here is the 20 level VoP Druid idea I've been playing with. I realize that my Feat choices might not be perfectly "optimized". I chose some of them for role-playing reasons, like the Draconic Wildshape Feat. Eventually Ash would learn all four of the Elemental languages. My character concept here is a person that considers themselves an avatar of nature. Put here on the material plane to combat Evil, Outsiders and the Undead. At 20th level he would have a 28 Wisdom, that says Exalted Avatar to me... :) Name: Ash Blackmoon Race: Human Gender: Male Class: Druid Level: 1st Alignment: Neutral Good Str: 10 (2 points) +0 Dex: 10 (2 points) +0 Con: 10 (2 points) +0 Int: 14 (6 points) +2 Wis: 16 (10 points) +3 Cha: 14 (6 points) +2 28 Point Buy Base Speed: 30 Languages: Common, Sylvan and Terran HP: 8 Initiative: +0 BAB: +0 BAB Melee: +0 BAB Missile: +0 Saves: Fort +2, Ref +0 and Will +5 (+3 WS Bonus) Armour Class: 14 (+4 VoP Bonus) Skills: 1st level points: (4 + 2 (+2 IN Bonus) x 4 + 4 (Human Bonus) + 1 (Nymph’s Kiss Feat) = 29 Each following level: (4 + 2 (+2 IN)) +1 (Human Bonus) + 1 (Nymph’s Kiss) = 8 Class Skills: Concentration (Con) +4 (4 Ranks) Diplomacy (Cha) +2 (+2 CH Bonus) Handle Animal (Cha) +3 (1 Rank, +2 CH Bonus) Heal (Wis) +7 (4 Ranks, +3 WS Bonus) Knowledge (nature) (Int) +6 (4 Ranks, +2 IN Bonus) Listen (Wis) +5 (2 Ranks, +3 WS Bonus) Ride (Dex) +1 (1 Rank) Spellcraft (Int) +6 (4 Ranks, +2 IN Bonus) Spot (Wis) +5 (2 Ranks, +3 WS Bonus) Survival (Wis) +7 (4 Ranks, +3 WS Bonus) Swim (Str) +1 (1 Rank) Cross-class Skills: Bluff (CH) +2 (+2 CH Bonus) Gather Information (CH) +2 (+2 CH Bonus) Intimidate (CH) +2 (+2 CH Bonus) Knowledge (Religion) (IN) +3 (1 Rank, +2 IN Bonus) Search (IN) +2 (+2 IN Bonus) Sense Motive (WS) +3 (+3 WS Bonus) Feats: 1st level: Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Exalted Bonus: Nymph’s Kiss Equipment: 1 Quarterstaff (1d6/1d6 x2, Bludgeoning) Great Kilt (solid Dark Green color) Medicine Bag (Spell Components, worn around neck) Description: Personal History: Goals: Build Plan: Feat Choices and Ability Boosts. 1st Level: Feats (Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Exalted: Nymph’s Kiss) 2nd Level: Exalted Feat (Intuitive Attack) 3rd Level: Feat (Improved Initiative) 4th Level: Exalted Feat (Nimbus Light), +1 WS 5th Level: N/A 6th Level: Feat (Natural Spell, Exalted: Exalted Companion) 7th Level: +2 WS (Exalted Bonus) 8th Level: Exalted Feat (Exalted Wildshape), +1 WS 9th Level: Feat (Extra Wildshape) 10th Level: Exalted Feat (Purify Spell) 11th Level: +2 WS, +2 IN (Exalted Bonus) 12th Level: Feat (Draconic Wildshape, Exalted: Sanctify Natural Attack), +1 WS 13th Level: N/A 14th Level: Exalted Feat (Gift of Faith) 15th Level: Feat (Transdimensional Spell), +2 WS, +2 IN, +2 CH (Exalted Bonus) 16th Level: Exalted Feat (Consecrate Spell), +1 WS 17th Level: N/A 18th Level: Feat (Extra Wildshape, Exalted: Holy Radiance) 19th Level: +2 WS, +2 IN, +2 CH, +2 DX (Exalted Bonus) 20th Level: Exalted Feat (Spell Focus (Good)), +1 WS
AramilWindwalker 08-21-05, 02:25 PM	you also automatically speak druidic, just fyi
Dark-star 08-21-05, 04:09 PM	You might want to check out the Lion of Talisid as well. I know you said your going straight Druid 20, but this is a very nice exalted druid PRC. Just a thought for you to consider. If you didn't want ot take a PRC one level of Monk is a great choice. Add your Wis to AC, since you won't be wearing armor anyway. I like the idea of using Intuitive Attack, that way if you wildshape into a low Str creature you can still have a decent chance to hit.
Dark-star 08-23-05, 11:55 AM	Does anyone have any thoughs on this build? I think it looks really interesting and I can't seem to find any other VoP Druids on the site. Any suggestions from you master min/maxers?
Christman 08-23-05, 12:27 PM	Hmm...I like this build. I really can't say how to improve on it, except to maybe have him take a level of Monk for the Wisdom Bonus to Armor Class. Unfortunately I'm not sure how that would work with the storyline you have going for him. Master of Many Forms might be a good idea to think about, as it would fit in nicely with the "Avatar of Nature" idea. You'd lose some spell power, but you'd gain a ton of cool forms and more size categories to use.
Malfean 08-23-05, 12:41 PM	Use the +6 ability VoP bonus on strength, it stacks with the wildshape forms. Reduce stregth for 2 and raise constitution for 2. You loose the bonus Con hit points when returning to human form. Read the Druid's Handbook. Don't buy extra wild shape. Transdimentional spell is also weak. I am against improved initiative. Chech out feats like augment summoning, greenbound(empires of faerun), ashbound(eberron).
zetsumi hayaku 08-23-05, 01:44 PM	I have to second alfean's opinion of Extra Wildshape, unless you're going to emphasize that (i.e. MoMF buil or Wildshape Feats) it's just not worth it. Mor meta magic (Empower, Quicken) is always a good idea. Transdimensional spell allows you to effect Ethereal creatures normally right? Seems like a bit of a waste to me. I doubt you have the 2 feats necessary for augment summoning (spellfocus (conj.) prerq), However, If you do want to boost up your summoning, I hidhly reccomend Rashemi Elemental summoning. Greenbound is very good up to about level 12 or so where you animal buffs are no longer working on your summons because they're plants :( At low levels though it is probably one of the stronges feats for a druid. Other than that, Exalted wildshape / companion is good for flavour, but rather inefficient in my opinion. It gives you some nice bonuses, but I think there are better uses for feats.
Dark-star 08-23-05, 02:06 PM	Other than that, Exalted wildshape / companion is good for flavour, but rather inefficient in my opinion. It gives you some nice bonuses, but I think there are better uses for feats. I agree these feats may not be the most optimal, but since they are VoP bonus feats you can affrd to take them in this build. If you look at The Book of Exalted deeds your choices for exalted feats run pretty thin when you are recieving one every other level. The summoning feats are very nice indeed. I'm thinking about this build using an anthropomorphic bat for the +6 wis. I know the race does have it's pitfalls, having a speed of 5 and whatnot but at level one I can end up with an AC of over 20 with a nice few extra spells.
JRedGiant 08-23-05, 03:43 PM	Purify Spell and Consecrate Spell are not Exalted feats. They are metamagic feats that happen to appear in the BoED. They are not legal selections for VoP bonus feats. Replace them, I suggest with Animal Friend and Knight of Stars, or whichever of the other feats like it matches your alignment. The summoning feats recommended are great but may not fit into what's allowed for your campaign if you're not playing Faerun. If you can't use these, Improved Natural Weapon: Bite from the Monster Manual is also good - a lot of shapes have a bite attack. Or, if you really wanted Purify and Consecrate Spell, you could use them in the Extra Wildshape slots. If you can use them, however, go with those. Unless a build is specifically designed to take advantage of going last, Improved Initiative is almost always good.
Saxis 08-23-05, 04:31 PM	No Extend Spell?? I thought extend was always a no brainer for a Druid.... by the time you get up to level 12 or so, 2 extended barkskins will last you most of the day, as well as other buffs.
carnivore 08-23-05, 04:57 PM	Does anyone have any thoughs on this build? I think it looks really interesting and I can't seem to find any other VoP Druids on the site. Any suggestions from you master min/maxers? try this.....look thru this thread for Druids...then see how you can modify your build. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=391598 BY the Way....when you wildshape you will gain the Physical Attributes of the Animal you are wildshaping into......the VOP bonuses would be better spent on your own Mental attributes(Int,Wis,Cha) for a boost try this: Alignment = CG or NG Ninja 1/ Druid 18/ Mystic Wanderer 1 Gives: Cha to AC Wis to AC Cast 9th lvl Divine 19th lvl caster Wildshape as 18th lvl Druid :D
JRedGiant 08-23-05, 07:52 PM	BY the Way....when you wildshape you will gain the Physical Attributes of the Animal you are wildshaping into......the VOP bonuses would be better spent on your own Mental attributes(Int,Wis,Cha) Actually, VoP gives an enhancement bonus to attributes. I see no reason why you'd lose these bonuses when wildshaped. So there's no reason to avoid the physical attributes.
Caelic 08-23-05, 08:06 PM	Exalted Wildshape, inefficient? Oh, heavens, no--it's phenomenally good. A feat that just gave you the extraordinary and supernatural qualities of your animal forms would be good in and of itself. This gives you that, plus some nice little bonuses, plus unlimited access to Dimension Door and Blink as free actions. How in the world could anyone NOT consider this a good feat for a Druid?
carnivore 08-24-05, 05:10 PM	Actually, VoP gives an enhancement bonus to attributes. I see no reason why you'd lose these bonuses when wildshaped. So there's no reason to avoid the physical attributes. yes thats true ...VOP does give Enhancement bonuses, BUT....unless you go for a late entry to the VOP...they are the only bonuses that you will get(other that every 4 level attribute bonuses)......so if you have a 32 point buy try this: Starting stats: 10 Str 10 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 16 Wis 16 Cha stats at 20th lvl 10 Str 10 Dex 12 Con(base +2 VOP) 18 Int(base +4 VOP) 29 Wis(base +5 levels+8 VOP) 22 Cha(base +6 VOP) race: HUMAN Alignment = CG or NG Ninja 1/ Druid 18/ Mystic Wanderer 1 Gives: total AC 40 (Base 10 + 10 exalted +9 Wis +6 (sacred)Cha +3 Deflection+2 Natural)....this will go up in most Wildshape forms Cast 9th lvl Divine 19th lvl caster Wildshape as 18th lvl Druid so for example if you took a Dire Ape combat form...this would be your stats: 22 Str 15 Dex 14 Con 18 Int 29 Wis 22 Cha total AC 43 (Base 10 -1 SIZE+2 Dex + 10 exalted +9 Wis +6 (sacred)Cha +3 Deflection +4 natural) DIRE APE Large Animal Hit Dice: 5d8+13 (35 hp) Initiative: +2 Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), climb 15 ft. Armor Class: 15 (–1 size, +2 Dex, +4 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 13 Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+13 Attack: Claw +8 melee (1d6+6) Full Attack: 2 claws +8 melee (1d6+6) and bite +3 melee (1d8+3) Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft. Special Attacks: Rend 2d6+9 Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent Saves: Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +5 Abilities: Str 22, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7 Skills: Climb +14, Listen +5, Move Silently +4, Spot +6 Feats: Alertness, Toughness Environment: Warm forests Organization: Solitary or company (5–8) Challenge Rating: 3 Treasure: None Alignment: Always neutral Advancement: 6–15 HD (Large) Level Adjustment: — A dire ape stands about 9 feet tall and weighs from 800 to 1,200 pounds. Combat Dire apes attack anything that enters their territory, even other dire apes. If an opponent’s armor foils a dire ape’s attacks, the creature will attempt to grapple and pin, then rend the prone opponent. Rend (Ex): A dire ape that hits with both claw attacks latches onto the opponent’s body and tears the flesh. This attack automatically deals an extra 2d6+12 points of damage. Skills: Dire apes have a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened. :D
SwollenOstrich 08-24-05, 09:57 PM	It seems to me that the strongest part about a druid is its ability to Wildshape. Since a VoP druid will never be able to cast shapechange (you cant even borrow the focus required for a round), it seems to me the best choice would be to take MoMF after level 10, as it now stacks with druid levels for max wildshape hd. Any thoughts? P.S. Is there a feat that lets you pick up the supernatural abilities of the creatures a MoMF changes into?
Tweedledope 08-24-05, 11:40 PM	I too would second the move for Master of Many Forms. However, if you do this, I would remove Intuitive Strike. Honestly, if you're a Master of Many Forms your main combat form had better be War Troll. Your strength would be outrageous as would your con. One question about Carnivore's build: Why Ninja? I'm sure you have some reason behind it but, why? Also, is that OA Ninja or CV Ninja? Let's see, another option you might want to consider is the Shapechanger class that Kill Joy created. It is pretty nice and is, essentially, Master of Many Forms for 20 levels. It can be found here. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=6721854) I've actually playtested one and it is a very nice and balanced class (until very high levels). It would be PERFECT for the Vow of Poverty as well. -=Tweedledope=-
Tweedledope 08-24-05, 11:41 PM	P.S. Is there a feat that lets you pick up the supernatural abilities of the creatures a MoMF changes into? Yes, it's in the Savage Species and is called Assume Supernatural Ability. It's very...very...broken; and I love it.
Dark-star 08-25-05, 12:36 AM	One question about Carnivore's build: Why Ninja? I'm sure you have some reason behind it but, why? Also, is that OA Ninja or CV Ninja? -=Tweedledope=- The Ninja was for Wis > AC while avoiding the Monks lawful alignment restriction. Any thoughts on a fleshed out MoMF VoP build?
JRedGiant 08-29-05, 03:48 PM	Carnivore, Don't get me wrong, you have an excellent build. My point is it's better than you realize. The enhancement bonuses from VoP APPLY WHEN WILDSHAPED, even to the new base physical stats of the form. In your dire ape example, since the SRD dire ape has a con of 14, and you have a +2 enhancement bonus to con, your con would be 16. This is why I say that adding the VoP enhancements is a viable play. Lets look at the Ape's stats of your character with +8 Str/+6 Con/+4 Dex/+2 Wisdom instead. Str 18 (Base +8 VoP) Dex 14 (Base +4 VoP) Con 16 (Base +6 VoP) Int 14 (Base) Wis 23 (Base +5 lvls +2 VoP_ Cha 16 (base) And in Dire Ape form Str 30 (22 +8 VoP Enh) Dex 19 (15 +4 VoP Enh) Con 20 (14 +6 VoP Enh) Int 14 Wis 23 Cha 16 Now your build is great for a more castery type druid, as his DC's go through the roof. My point is that for a more physically oriented druid, the physical buffs are good too. And even if you don't go that route, at least one bump is going to apply to physical stats.
carnivore 08-29-05, 03:59 PM	yes i realize that they also work for Stats in Wildshape......but ultimately Spellcasting trumps physical abilities...so focus on the end result and never forget Skills.....they rule in Non-combat :D
carnivore 08-29-05, 04:02 PM	by the way What will your AC be like with focusing only on the Physical stats? :D
JRedGiant 08-29-05, 04:38 PM	by the way What will your AC be like with focusing only on the Physical stats? :D Well, if you go with Druid 20, like the OP had asked, rather than dipping into Monk, MUCH better by focusing on the physical stats. ;) Honestly, I would suggest Wisdom +8/Constitution +6/Dexterity +4/Strength +2....for the following reasons. Wisdom - High DC's, AC, Will Save - I think we agree this is a priority. Constitution - More HP is a very good thing, better fort saves. Dexterity - More AC, initiative bonus, Reflex save. Strength - A little bit of extra damage on physical attacks and better grappling Intellegence - a 16 Int should give more than enough skill points, and the skill point gain is NOT retroactive. So you're really only looking at getting a small amount of extra skill points for assigning the +2 here...4 points over the 20 levels, I believe. Charisma - Again, 16 charisma is more than enough.
Forsaken1 08-29-05, 04:54 PM	You might want to check out the Lion of Talisid as well. I know you said your going straight Druid 20, but this is a very nice exalted druid PRC. Just a thought for you to consider. If you didn't want ot take a PRC one level of Monk is a great choice. Add your Wis to AC, since you won't be wearing armor anyway. I like the idea of using Intuitive Attack, that way if you wildshape into a low Str creature you can still have a decent chance to hit. An exalted Druid cannot become a monk.
carnivore 08-29-05, 05:00 PM	however you could be an Ex-Monk...: Monk 1...Lawful Good druid 1...Neutral Good..stay this the rest of the way however what i did is: race: HUMAN Alignment = CG or NG Ninja 1/ Druid 18/ Mystic Wanderer 1 :D
Forsaken1 08-29-05, 05:03 PM	however you could be an Ex-Monk...: Monk 1...Lawful Good druid 1...Neutral Good..stay this the rest of the way however what i did is: :D Touché
Malfean 08-29-05, 06:10 PM	I totally agree with JRedGiants ability suggestions(maybe i would switch constitution and strength bonus). Actually provided that you can't take the legendary ape's form isn't VoP a no brainer? It isn't guaranteed you will meet a legendary ape in the game (in most games i have played we haven't met any) and even if you become familiar with one the DM can still say that most items don't fit him... All these make it very likely that for the druid VoP will be an optimal choice. Also you can learn epic feats that require high abilities very easily(like dragon wildshape), without fearing you will loose your +6 wisdom item and thus being unable to use the feat Another issue with epic levels is that summoning doesnt pay off anymore. Wildshape and damage spells become more optimal. That is because there are epic feats that improve wildshape and damage spells(enchance spell metamagic), while there aren't any that improve summoning. In that regard maximize and empower spell are better than greenbound and rashemi elemental summoning.(At epic levels always)
Dark-star 08-29-05, 06:25 PM	I totally agree with JRedGiants ability suggestions(maybe i would switch constitution and strength bonus). Actually provided that you can't take the legendary ape's form isn't VoP a no brainer? It isn't guaranteed you will meet a legendary ape in the game (in most games i have played we haven't met any) and even if you become familiar with one the DM can still say that most items don't fit him... All these make it very likely that for the druid VoP will be an optimal choice. Also you can learn epic feats that require high abilities very easily(like dragon wildshape), without fearing you will loose your +6 wisdom item and thus being unable to use the feat Another issue with epic levels is that summoning doesnt pay off anymore. Wildshape and damage spells become more optimal. That is because there are epic feats that improve wildshape and damage spells(enchance spell metamagic), while there aren't any that improve summoning. In that regard maximize and empower spell are better than greenbound and rashemi elemental summoning.(At epic levels always) The only problem I see with this is that VoP has no progession whatsoever after level 20. I think this is a glaring overseight which causes a lot of players to dislike the feat. The truth is most games never end up in epic anyyway so it's not a big deal. On the other hand I think by working with your DM he/she should allow an epic progression of the feat, or an Epic Vow which continues it's bonuses. If not you will be easily outclassed by your peers.
carnivore 08-29-05, 06:34 PM	here is an example of an EPIC VOP: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=398990 :D
Malfean 08-29-05, 06:53 PM	I had seen Carnivores link the the epic boards before and i must say i found it kinda overpowered...then again i know little of the epic items this vow is supposed to replace...what do you think?
Dark-star 08-29-05, 11:32 PM	here is an example of an EPIC VOP: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=398990 :D I was also refered to this post. I probally should have provided the link as an example. Thanks Carnivore. :D As for overpowered, I too have little experiance with epic items so it would be hard to say. I think many of the abilities work on the same basis as they did in the regular feats progression however. Maybe we should bring this discussion back around to the druid, it seems to be becomming a topic entirly about the Vow itself. I'm finding all this quite helpful all the same however as I've never played a druid and I think my next character may be one.
carnivore 08-30-05, 03:10 PM	what may seem to be overpowered Pre-EPIC, is not when you start playing in EPIC. by the time you are 25th level you should have the equivilant of 2,100,000gp and have access to EPIC items, which are FAR beyond most Pre-EPIC items. you will have 4,300,000gp at 30th lvl...........to keep up with this...the EPIC VOP needs to have quite a bit. remember you are also facing EPIC Monsters, Spells,etc...... BACK to the DRUID Wildshape is only one aspect of Playing a Druid....there is much more to it,...with only 3-4 encounters per day....most of your role play is in NON-Combat situations......the mental abilities are most useful for these....as well as setting the DC for your spells, and determining the quantity of extra Spells. there are a few feats that strengthen a druids Wildshaping abilities, but focus on the SKILLS to make a well rounded character...also dont forget the other abilities that a Druid gets(A Thousand Faces (Su): At 13th level, a druid gains the ability to change her appearance at will, as if using the alter self spell, but only while in her normal form.) :D
Malfean 08-30-05, 04:07 PM	Skills ranks for intelligence 14 human starting with fey friend: 23 in spot, listen, concetration, spellcraft, knowleghe nature, survival, diplomacy(redeem evil characters). 20 ranks in handle animal. Alas one bad thing with vow of poverty is that you can't use the combination of craft(poison) skill with your immunity to poison. I hope that Tetsubo uses most of the suggestions presented. :)
carnivore 11-30-05, 07:27 PM	:bump: to save :D