Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sagefire 04-05-04, 09:52 AM	My human monk is very close to breaking into the epic levels. After 20th level, I was thinking about switching him to a different core class or prestige class. As a side note, the campaign that my DM has been crafting is very demon/devil oriented and I don't think it's going to change. This is has been problem for my monk because he's been having an incredibly hard time breaking through their AC, and I can't even remember the lat time I stunned anything because of their saves. My group consists of a barbarian, a wizard, a ranger, a rogue, and a paladin all around level 18. I'm probably one of the weaker characters, while the barbarian and (especially) the wizard are really dishing out the damage. My questions are: A) How should I play my monk in this type of scenario with this kind of party? B) What do you recommend I should do with my monk after he reaches level 20? C) I just got Complete Warrior. What feats from this book do you think are woth taking for my monk? (I may have an opportunity to change some of my feats) I was thinking of taking 1 level of sorcerer and then becoming a Dragon Disciple for the stat boosts. Any other suggestions are greatly appreciated. :)
CompleteSatori 04-05-04, 10:53 AM	I will say this before Neon, Mean, or Funny get a chance to. If you are a Monk, multiclass with care! Dragon Disciple is sub optimal, and all those bonus spells will only be 1st level anyways, you will find yourself doing less damage than before. Consider a complete rework of your character (if the DM allows it) to reflect one of these builds (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=48573) in the Monk FAQ. This gives you a chance to change the effect your Monk has on the field of combat. (I highly recommend this Draconic Monk build) Draconic Monk Human Monk 6/Shou Disciple 5/Fighter 1/Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries 8 w/ OA Monk feat options 1 Monk Mnk1 Imp Unarmed*, Stunning Attack*, Dodge, Alertness 2 Monk Mnk2 Kiai Shout* 3 Monk Mnk3 Weapon Focus (unarmed) 4 Monk Mnk4 - 5 Monk Mnk5 - 6 Monk Mnk6 Fists of Iron*, Improved Natural Attack 7 ShouDisciple Mnk6/ShDi1 - 8 ShouDisciple Mnk6/ShDi2 Power Attack* 9 ShouDisciple Mnk6/ShDi3 TWF 10 ShouDisciple Mnk6/ShDi4 Combat Reflexes* 11 ShouDisciple Mnk6/ShDi5 - 12 Fighter Mnk6/ShDi5/Fgt1 Improved Sunder*, Eagle Claw Attack, (Empty Hand) 13 InitiateofDraconicMysteries Mnk6/ShDi5/Fgt1/IDM1 - 14 InitiateofDraconicMysteries Mnk6/ShDi5/Fgt1/IDM2 - 15 InitiateofDraconicMysteries Mnk6/ShDi5/Fgt1/IDM3 Imp TWF 16 InitiateofDraconicMysteries Mnk6/ShDi5/Fgt1/IDM4 (imp die step) 17 InitiateofDraconicMysteries Mnk6/ShDi5/Fgt1/IDM5 - 18 InitiateofDraconicMysteries Mnk6/ShDi5/Fgt1/IDM6 Expert Tactician 19 InitiateofDraconicMysteries Mnk6/ShDi5/Fgt1/IDM7 - 20 InitiateofDraconicMysteries Mnk6/ShDi5/Fgt1/IDM8 (imp die step) Notes: Use an Amulet of Natural Attacks obviously, with at least the Keen effect to get the most out of your x3 crit multiplier. At level 20 you do 6d12 with an unarmed attack and have full Flurry capabilities from level 11 on. With a Fanged Ring (Dragon #308) and while Enlarged you do 12d12 at 20th. YES. I am afraid that without gear and feat reworking in the extreme, a straight 20th level Monk needs major help from both items and the party spellcasters to keep up in pure damage potential with the Fighters/Barbarians. But remember, mobility, flanking, and utility combat are a straight Monks role in combat, so if you like doing that, just read Mean_Liars FAQ I linked above (also in my Sig) and rebuild to suit!
Sagefire 04-05-04, 04:15 PM	bump:bump:
pawsplay 04-07-04, 02:24 AM	A) How should I play my monk in this type of scenario with this kind of party? You are the birdie. Get the bad guys to watch the birdie while your friends open up a can of whupass. Then help with cleanup. B) What do you recommend I should do with my monk after he reaches level 20? You've made it this far, why not stick with Monk? If you have Weapon Finesse, start aiming for the most obscene Dex possible. Otherwise, keep boosting your epic base attack bonus with that Prowess feat. C) I just got Complete Warrior. What feats from this book do you think are woth taking for my monk? (I may have an opportunity to change some of my feats) Dash, and and Flying Kick. At this point, you can hurl yourself a hundred feet, delivering a charge with an extra 1d12 damage. Throw in Improved Charge from the minis handbook and you can do it around a corner. It may not be uber, but it's a nasty surprise for an enemy spellcaster. Pain Touch is a really good Feat. Take Ability Focus (Stunning Fist). Now you have +2 DC, and they are nauseated for one round if they are stunned.
ZeroEffect 04-07-04, 05:56 AM	Take the Vow of Poverty from the Book of Exalted Deeds.
FireAge 04-07-04, 06:39 AM	Don't take the vow of poverty, epic wealth will be far better than the minor things you get from the vow. Unless there is some epic vow of poverty I don't know about. Maybe you could post your current build? That way people could give you some real advise.
ZeroEffect 04-07-04, 06:57 AM	I disagree with you, FireAge. VoP is great for a high level monk.
FireAge 04-07-04, 07:25 AM	off topic: The only reason I could see to take it, would be to sell all your equipment and buy tomes to increase your stats, and than take the vow. But seeing as how Sagefire is already around level 18, he probably won't be able to take Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty anyway. a level 18 character has 440.000 gp at level 20 this will be 760.000 gp This can easily duplicate any effect of the vow unless you are in a lowmagic campaign or have limited access to books.
maven50312 04-07-04, 11:31 AM	In regards to Complete Warrior feats, there's a few I like for Monks. 1) Prone Attack- If you succeed with a melle attack from prone position you are able to stand as a free action without atacks of opportunity. (A high Tumble check lets you do the same thing without an attack and as a move action). 2) Improved Toughness- This is great just for extra hps. It's designed that at lvl 20, you'll gain 20 extra hps. Much better than regular toughness or even the other toughnesses from Masters of the Wild. 3) Roundabout Kick- This is for those lucky people who took Improved Critical: Unarmed Attack. If you succeed on a critical hit, this lets you make an immediate attack at the same BaB that you used to make the critical hit. For example, lvl 20 Monk has +15/+10/+5 (without flurry) and confirms the critical threat on the +10 bonus.Her attacks would essentially look like this: +15/+10(crit rolled and confirmed)/+10(from roundabout feat)/+5. You can use this ability in conjunction with flurry and only works with unarmed attacks I believe. 4) Karmic Strike- Kinda nice if you don't mind getting hit. To take a -4 to your AC for a round and if anyone attacks you from a square that you threaten and hits, you may immediately make an attack of opportunity agaisnt them. This is nice with Combat Reflexes and Imp. Trip =P. There are some others, but you should probably give the book a good read through. Some interesting stuff in there.
CompleteSatori 04-07-04, 11:42 AM	And remember, Zero, that there is no Epic version of the Vow of Poverty, and if there were it would need to be MUCH more powerful than the non Epic version, as the Epic levels have a very very inflated economy. Remember that your treasure value per encounter at 21st level is 87,000gp, and average value of a 21st level character is 975,000gp (thats 215,000 more than a 20th level character). You design an Epic VoP progression that can even hope to keep up with the power level that the PCs have with access to this kind of money, and I will say that you should use the Vow after 20th, but right now this character would be strangling himself and would become a lodestone for the party in combat.
mean_liar 04-08-04, 09:52 AM	If you want help you should post stats and feats.
ZeroEffect 04-08-04, 02:55 PM	Originally posted by CompleteSatori And remember, Zero, that there is no Epic version of the Vow of Poverty, and if there were it would need to be MUCH more powerful than the non Epic version, as the Epic levels have a very very inflated economy. Remember that your treasure value per encounter at 21st level is 87,000gp, and average value of a 21st level character is 975,000gp (thats 215,000 more than a 20th level character). You design an Epic VoP progression that can even hope to keep up with the power level that the PCs have with access to this kind of money, and I will say that you should use the Vow after 20th, but right now this character would be strangling himself and would become a lodestone for the party in combat. Point taken. I'm curious to see if WotC actually comes out with an epic version. What kind of equipment would you guys recommend for Sagefire?
catharz 04-08-04, 03:50 PM	Epic Monk is kind of the pits... Do you have access to Dragon magazine? IIRC Issue 279 (or something) has an epic Monk PrC. Is your character lawful good? If so, there are a number of non-epic PrCs in the Book of exalted deeds that might carry you over to the epic PrC. Here is another thought: Consider advancing the Half-dragon template (not the Dragon disciple PrC). There are rules for it on the WotC home page. Then try to boost your natural AC bonus to around 20. Then advance Hidecarved dragon from Draconomicon.
KMFDM 04-08-04, 04:36 PM	I'd try picking up a Monk PrC like Tattooed monk But if ur group has OA the Shintao Monk is an excellent PrC with some nice abilities though I dont know how well at high levels. If U take a monk PrC U will keep increasing ur nice Monk abilities like AC or Fast Movement.
Crusher Nate 04-08-04, 04:47 PM	The Kensai from The Complete Warrior seems like a good choice. It'd let you enhance your fists with all the cool weapon enhancements the rest of your party enjoys. You could even take it with Vow of Poverty, since you spend experience, not gold, for these enhancements. It also multiclasses freely with Monk. And chances are you already have the feats you need to qualify for it.
mean_liar 04-08-04, 06:27 PM	For goodness' sake, drop the Vow of Poverty already. Its as terrible a minmax choice as you can make for levels 18+. Period.
ZeroEffect 04-08-04, 07:11 PM	Originally posted by mean_liar For goodness' sake, drop the Vow of Poverty already. Its as terrible a minmax choice as you can make for levels 18+. Period. LOL :D
ZeroEffect 04-08-04, 07:29 PM	I was going to leave this well enough alone, but then I went and looked at VoP. I think it really depends on the proliferation of magic items in a particular campaign. If you look at the actual bonuses that a VoP character receives at 20th level, they're actually quite amazing for a monk character. Remember, a monk isn't going to be wearing armor or using weapons. If you are so strongly against VoP at 18+ why don't you give us some examples of items that a monk of that level which give better benefits. Instead of just sitting there and saying that VoP sucks, why don't you put your money where your mouth is. I dare ya...
Laelenie 04-08-04, 08:41 PM	Originally posted by ZeroEffect I was going to leave this well enough alone, but then I went and looked at VoP. I think it really depends on the proliferation of magic items in a particular campaign. If you look at the actual bonuses that a VoP character receives at 20th level, they're actually quite amazing for a monk character. Remember, a monk isn't going to be wearing armor or using weapons. If you are so strongly against VoP at 18+ why don't you give us some examples of items that a monk of that level which give better benefits. Instead of just sitting there and saying that VoP sucks, why don't you put your money where your mouth is. I dare ya... Breacer of relentless might ? (+12 to str and con and two size category larger for combat purposes) Amulet of epic natural armor +9 ? Cloak of resistance +10 ? Bracer of armor+15 ? epic periapt of wisdom +12? AMulet f unarmed strike Lawful sonic blast +8 ? I can go on for hours....
RabidWeasel 04-08-04, 08:51 PM	Try and get the saint template. It meshes nicely with monk.
ZeroEffect 04-08-04, 08:53 PM	Originally posted by Laelenie Breacer of relentless might ? (+12 to str and con and two size category larger for combat purposes) Amulet of epic natural armor +9 ? Cloak of resistance +10 ? Bracer of armor+15 ? epic periapt of wisdom +12? AMulet f unarmed strike Lawful sonic blast +8 ? I can go on for hours.... How attainable are those items?
CompleteSatori 04-08-04, 09:04 PM	They are standard Epic loot, and your in house Mage crafter can make them all at Epic.
Zubon 04-08-04, 09:26 PM	I'll just toss out something funky and say, "How about Perfected One?" Flip open Dragon Magazine #297 from July 2002, when the Epic Level Handbook came out. This was before Paizo, and the article is even by Andy Collins, so it is not going to get more official than this. :) Go Monk 21 (to get Concentration 24) then just run with Perfected One from then on; you can switch back to Monk at any time as a class feature. Over the first 10 levels, you get a rage-like "battle trance" (+4 Wis and Dex!), +Wis to damage and Reflex saves (and attacks 1 round/day), +Dex to Fortitude saves, +Con to Will saves, 3 bonus epic feats, permanent freedom of movement, auto-heal 1/day when dropped, foresight 1/week, and mind blank 1 hour/day. Some of these abilities scale with higher level.
ZeroEffect 04-08-04, 10:14 PM	Originally posted by CompleteSatori They are standard Epic loot, and your in house Mage crafter can make them all at Epic. Well... I need to get you guys to educate my DM and my fellow party members because the loot we get in our epic game is randomly generated and not anything close to what has been listed above, and my "in-house mage crafter" doesn't make crap for me. Good luck convincing him to sacrifice experience points to make me items even if I pay the gold. Also... take a look at what the epic NPC monk (level 30) has in the back of the Epic Level Handbook: belt of giant strength +6 cloak of displacement slippers of spider climbing pint ioun stone periapt of wisdom +6 gloves of dexterity +6 ring of protection +5 bracers of armor +8 ring of chameleon power figurine of wondrous power (bronze griffin) carpet of flying manual of gainful exercise +3 pale green ioun stone Then look at what Vow of Poverty gives you at level 20: exalted strike +5 (good-aligned, bypasses evil DR) energy resistance 15 (acid, cold, electricty, fire, sonic) endure elements damage reduction 10/evil ability score enhancement +8/+6/+4/+2 AC bonus +10 natural armor +2 deflection +3 true seeing regeneration (heals 1 damage per level per hour) 10 exalted feats freedom of movement mind shielding +3 on all saves greater sustenance (no need to breath) As a monk, I'll take the Vow of Poverty, thank you very much. I'm looking forward to an epic version of VoP too.
CompleteSatori 04-08-04, 10:58 PM	Zero, you probably won't see an Epic version of VoP anytime soon, as the Epic Handbook is not going to be even changed over to 3.5, much less bring other books over that have come out more recently. And your 30th level Monk has the treasure value of a 17th level character. Remember that he was built on the NPC gold value charts (DMG pg.127), where a 20th level NPC has a value of 220,000gp. Thats 540,000 less than a PC of the same level. So your NPC at 30th is going to have roughly a third of the gold value of a PC of the same level. You do the math yourself, starting wealth at 30th level for a PC is 4,300,000gp. Does that look like it can only buy you several +4 stat enhancing items and a carpet of flying? Or do you think you might have some pretty hefty magic items by then? You will regret all the items you didnt get when you decide to drop VoP at about 22nd level, when you are being left behind in combat, and in social situations. VoP is great for non epic campaigns, yes you are still somewhat underpowered, but certain builds capitalize on its abilities very well, until Epic levels.
ZeroEffect 04-08-04, 11:08 PM	Good point about the NPC thing, Satori. I'm in an epic campaign right now and I do have better gear than is listed on that NPC, but I'm also not a monk. I DO NOT have the equivalent of the cool gear listed by Laelenie. The treasure we get off of epic monsters is randomly generated. Most of the threats we face are not epic monsters, but are usually large scale political and military conflicts. Unfortunately, if my army defeats the orc horde, I don't get to loot any epic magic items. :( Hopefully the original poster will post their build and will also let us know what the prospects are for magic items in their particular game.
Laelenie 04-09-04, 09:49 AM	You are looking at the VoP as a simple Feat giving some bonuses... To take VoP you must first take sacred vow (and you burn 2 feats) and you must be EXALTED... this meas TOTALLY, AWFULLY GOOD... A little mistake, some gealousy, envy, and goodbye Vow bonuses... And being so good, makes you very vulnerable in social and political situation... Putting you in a moral crossroad is like stealing candies from a child....
Sagefire 04-19-04, 02:26 AM	Sorry for the delay in my respone but I've been busy with all things school-related. Anyways, after much discussion with my DM he said I would be able to take Vow of Poverty along with all the bonus exalted included even though I would be taking it at a very late level. Now would VoP be worth it? We are playing in a very low magic campaign. As an 18th level character, I am getting items equivalent to what a character aproximately half my level would get more or less. I'll try to post my stats and feats within the next day or so. More to come...
pokemaniacbill 04-19-04, 03:03 AM	The Epic feat that increases your threat range again for your unarmed strike, followed by the one that makes it Vorpal. Keen Strike and Vorpal Strike. I also reccomend Holy Strike, one of the kewlest things to come out... oh, and Reflect Arrows, definitely, unless melee is one of those things that's really common. Another rather nasty thing to do is take Fast Healing and use your Monk's full move action... do it right and you'll lure them. You do have the Power Critical feat, right? I like that one, you will too I think... Commission a wizard to craft something with the thing that gives Monks an enhancement bonus to their unarmed strike and put on the Epic Sure Striking ability (If it's 3.0), if not, get Speed. DR penetration. Get that anyway, that makes six attacks a round. I doubt you took the Two-Weapon Fighting Chain, but it is a great one to take for any Monk... there's something supporting it below that 'No offhand attacks for unarmed' which says 'Full strength to your offhand attacks.' That actually means, in my mind, that Monks are meant for Two-Weapon fighting... but ah well. Might as well take the actual Two-Weapon Fighting feat anyway. For a PrC... Weapon Master, man. You get to increase your multiplier, you get an additional increase in threat range, iffen I recall correctly... (Making for a grand total, with the Keen Strike and Improved Crit... what, something like 12-20). Or am I wrong here? Regardless, it will really, really be kewl.
ZeroEffect 04-19-04, 03:11 AM	Originally posted by Sagefire Sorry for the delay in my respone but I've been busy with all things school-related. Anyways, after much discussion with my DM he said I would be able to take Vow of Poverty along with all the bonus exalted included even though I would be taking it at a very late level. Now would VoP be worth it? We are playing in a very low magic campaign. As an 18th level character, I am getting items equivalent to what a character aproximately half my level would get more or less. I'll try to post my stats and feats within the next day or so. More to come... Is VoP worth it? That's the big question. Take a look at what its powers give you, and compare that to what you can expect in the way of magic items. In a low magic campaign, I'd say it's worth it. It's also important to remember that it awards you many exalted feats, some of which are quite powerful. But do a serious comparison before you make a decision.
SuperThread 04-19-04, 04:10 AM	Originally posted by Sagefire Sorry for the delay in my respone but I've been busy with all things school-related. Anyways, after much discussion with my DM he said I would be able to take Vow of Poverty along with all the bonus exalted included even though I would be taking it at a very late level. Now would VoP be worth it? We are playing in a very low magic campaign. As an 18th level character, I am getting items equivalent to what a character aproximately half my level would get more or less. :mymy: If you're stuck with 50k gold at 18th level, hell yes, take the VoP. In a more wealthy campaign, I agree that the VoP is bad at higher levels (and is flat-out horrible at epic). Also, see if you can get your DM to allow you to take a level of Shiba Protector. In effect, you lose three feats (two if you've decided to cash in on Karmic Strike, which has Combat Expertise as a prereq) for +5-10 to both attacks and damage (which scales up into epic).
Timespike 04-19-04, 03:50 PM	Since you haven't given your alignmennt, I'm going to assume LG or LN The monk prestige classes I'd reccomend: Initiate of Pistis Sofia (Book of Exalted Deeds) Fist of Zuoken (Expanded Psionics Handbook)
xect 05-07-04, 09:44 AM	Vow of poverty is good if you can find a worthwhile epic progression somewhere. Something that keeps you on par with everyone else. Make sure you can do that before you give up your items.
MaplessManiac620 05-07-04, 04:53 PM	Originally posted by xect Vow of poverty is good if you can find a worthwhile epic progression somewhere. Something that keeps you on par with everyone else. Make sure you can do that before you give up your items. Well, with the limited amount of gold available, I think that he might be able to continue the VoP chart, if there is some continuity to it. I haevn't looked at it too closely, but I think someone could do it (or even already has!)