20/20 by 20? [Archive] - Wizards Community

20/20 by 20? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Franco Un-American
11-27-04, 08:38 PM I was wondering if it was possible to have a 20th lvl. character with 20 caster levels & lvl.9 spells in both a divine & arcane spellcasting class? I imagine it'd have something to do with Ur-Priest, True Necromancer, and/or Mustic Theurge (or perhaps all three?) Any help?

PS: All three of those PrC's are usable. Also, if necessay, divine/psionic is OK too.
Caelic
11-27-04, 10:57 PM Close. You want Sublime Chord and Apostle of Peace, used in conjunction with Practiced Spellcaster.

Bard 8/AoP2/Sublime Chord 2/Mystic Theurge 8, just f'rinstance, nets you a Sublime Chord caster level of 18...20 with Practiced Spellcaster. Your AoP caster level, meantime, is your AoP level (10) plus 1/2 of your caster levels from other classes. Your bard CL is 20, and so is your Sublime Chord caster level--your net AoP caster level is 30.

This can be jacked considerably higher with some tweaks, but this exceeds your requirements without getting as cheesy as it could possibly be.
Mirikon
11-27-04, 11:16 PM True Necromancer, combined with a pair of Practised Spellcaster feats (since when you take Practiced Spellcaster, it only applies to one spellcasting class) does the trick nicely.

Clr 3/Wiz 3/TN 14 is the build you want.

Other than that, I don't know of anything. You could always make one up, though, if your DM will allow it.
Ramses III
11-27-04, 11:22 PM Practiced Spellcaster doesn't give you spells per day or spells known, so it doesn't work for this application. You would have to take some combination like the one Caelic proposes 2 posts above this one, using PrC's with an independent progression that goes to level 9 in 10 levels and apply MT or somesuch to it.
LordKiwi
11-28-04, 06:23 AM A nice simle Build would be Wizard 9 / Ur-priest 2 / Mystic Theurge 9 with Practiced spellcaster (arcane).

Wizard: CL 18+2 = 20
Ur-priest: CL 11+9 = 20

Nice and simle and you only need one Practiced Spellcaster feat and don't suffer the limitations of Sublime Chord (few spells known) or Apostle of Peace (Vow of Peace & Poverty).

Lord Kiwi,
Burning Duck
11-28-04, 09:23 AM If you want also a good BAB go

Wizard5/Eldricht Knight5/Mystic Theurge8/UR-Priest2

Base Attack Bonus: +12/+7/+2
Saves: +7 +4 +14 [25] (not counting Iron Will)
Hit Dices: 13d4 + 5d6 + 2d8
Skill Points: (2+INTmod)x23

Not huge CL however...
sparkster4242
11-28-04, 10:31 AM A Wiz 9 / UP 2 / MT 9 only has a 15 divine caster-level.
2 (UP) + 9 (MT) + .5(9 Wiz) = 15.
Another Practised Spellcaster can bring that up to 19, though.
dont forget, UP gets extra caster-level from levels in other spellcasting classes, but MT is not a spellcasting class.

hmm, try Wiz 4 / Swamp Witch 1 / UP 2 / MT 10 / Wiz 2 / UP 1.
arcane caster-level is 6(Wiz) + 1(SW) + 10(MT) = 17
divine caster-level is 3(UP) + 10(MT) +.5(6 Wiz) = 16
a couple of Practised Spellcasters can bring it up to 20/20, with 9th-level spells in both.

Swamp Witch is a PrC from Mongoose's Ultimate Prestige Classes v.2, i think - the important parts about it are the easy pre-req's, +1 spellcasting, and +2 base Fort save.

In order to pull this one off, you will need to find a way to gain Bluff as a class skill - the names of the feats to do that escape me at the moment.
feat choices are pretty limited for the first 5-6 levels, but once you make it into UP, they are wide open.
Franco Un-American
11-28-04, 02:05 PM Excellent, lotsa responses. BAB isn't important for this build, though, so the Knight is out. Also, Unfortunately, any 3rd party material is unusable in this ampaign, so the swamp witch is out as well. Finally, Ur-Priest works better than the Apostle of Peace, as this is intended to be a villain.

I think I'll end up using 10 levels of Mystic Theurge, 2 levels of Ur-Priest, and 8 levels of Sorcerer. This will give me a base of 18 arcane and 16 divine.

As a human, I'll take that feat mentioned below to make Know (religion, and perhaps the planes, depending on how many skills that gives you), 2 Practiced Spellcasters, Empower Spell, Iron Will, Spell Focus (Evil), Arcane Disciple (more sorcerer spells known!), and that feat in the XPH that gives extra skill points, if necessary.

So, any good?

PS: For the record, I much prefer the sorcerer to the wizard
mycroft65536
11-28-04, 02:46 PM you need level9 sorc, for the save requirement for ur-priest(fort+3)
Franco Un-American
11-28-04, 03:02 PM Looks like that's out the window... I'll just need to find a PrC that gives +1 caster & +2 Fort with almost no skill req's...or just go with the build mentioned above my last post.
LordKiwi
11-29-04, 04:05 AM A Wiz 9 / UP 2 / MT 9 only has a 15 divine caster-level.
2 (UP) + 9 (MT) + .5(9 Wiz) = 15.
Another Practised Spellcaster can bring that up to 19, though.
dont forget, UP gets extra caster-level from levels in other spellcasting classes, but MT is not a spellcasting class.

Your wizard spellcaster level is effectivly 18 so the ur-priest CL is
2 (UP) + 9 (MT) + .5(18 Wiz) = 20

Mind you this is an area of some ambiguity in the rules, but most people I've seen use this version, counting +1 to existing spellcasting class as a spellcasting class level (which I think it is).

Lord Kiwi,
LaneDreast
11-29-04, 09:11 AM I don't have my books with me, but doesn't dragonslayer give +1 BAB, Good fort and wisdom, and +1 spellcasting? It does have two feat requirements, but it would allow you to qualify for spellsword. Drow 0 Wiz 5/DS 1/Spellsword 1/Ur-priest 2/MT10/Devotee of Krianshelee or whatever it is called 1. Not many feats available for free use. Dodge, iron will, spell focus evil, lichloved, and something else. You do get the bonus feat from wizard. You can even drop in sorc instead of wizard, but the feat loss is a big impact.

Edit: I also forgot the last prestige class spell progression. Use some of that instead of MT as long as it gives double caster level progression.
Nightspirit
11-29-04, 09:48 AM a 18th level sorcerer know only one 9th level spell...

wizard works better in this way
Franco Un-American
11-29-04, 08:09 PM Well, if +1 to spellcasting class counted as one class level, then I'd just go with Sor/UP/MT, but that just won't work ITC.

Guess Ur-Priest 1, MT 10, Dragonslayer 1, wizard 8 (man, I hate so few spells/day, but I need the skills. tough trade). That is, if it does what it says it does (I have a snaking suspicion it gives +1 CL at 2nd. not 1st) Otherwise, a lot of pleading (and a $20 under the table) may allow the Ur-Priest build. (I'm not really interested in a meleeist, so until I take a quick look at it, I see little point in Spellsword)

PS: I'd hoped to use Arcane Disciple to help with my Sorcerer spells known. I'm already using Wisdom for spells, so it wouldn't hurt.
PhaedrusXY
11-29-04, 08:19 PM True Necromancer, combined with a pair of Practised Spellcaster feats (since when you take Practiced Spellcaster, it only applies to one spellcasting class) does the trick nicely.

Clr 3/Wiz 3/TN 14 is the build you want.

Other than that, I don't know of anything. You could always make one up, though, if your DM will allow it.You only get 8th level spells with this build (both divine and arcane). Also, your caster level is only 19 in each, even with Practiced Spellcaster. True Necromancer has 4 levels that grant an arcane level or a divine level, but not both.
SaintX
11-29-04, 08:56 PM http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=340926
bard 7 / mindbender 1 / ur priest 2 / sublime chord 2 / mystic theurge 8
9th level spells in both. unsure about caster level.
LaneDreast
11-29-04, 09:32 PM Well, besides the melee application of spellsword, it has other practical uses. 15% reduction allows one to throw in an obscene amount of armor abilities. So, we have the +x bracers of (+5) abilties. Next is the +1 twilight mithral full plate of (+8) abilities. Finally, a +1 animated buckler of (+6) abilities. That's extremely useful. Also, you already qualify for spellsword, and thus you increase saves, BAB and spell casting in one shot. The BAB increase is worth it in this build simply because of all the 1/2 HD bab progressions.

Also, you want the second level of ur-priest for rebuking to man handle divine feats such as divine metamagic.
amalcon
11-30-04, 01:27 AM Something I've been tooling around with:

Bard 4
Marshal 1
Ur-Priest 4
Nar Demonbinder 1
Sublime Chord 2
Mystic Theurge 6 (ur-p + chord)
Arch-Mage 2

Feats are tricky, but with 4 for ur-p/ND/chord (including arcane preparation for vile spells for the level 3 spell req), a non-human can just barely qualify for everything in time.

This gives a total of +11 BAB (actually better than straight up Wizzy), 8th level Bardic casting, 18th level Ur-Priest casting (20th with practiced), and 16th level chord casting after the arch levels (20th with practiced). If your DM allows the Contemplative with the Ur-Priest, swap out two ur-priest levels for contemplative and True Necro. Another option would be a Drow 0 and take that PGTF thing.

Anyway, I personally enjoy the 1 level of Nar Demonbinder to qualify for sublime chord bit; you can probably do better, but I like the sleight of hand feel it's got. Plus, the extra 4th level spells can be nice. If you pull off the drow 0/yath-thing or the contemplative/TN, the single demonbinder level is worth its weight in gold.

Edit: Just noticed that there's no room for practiced casters. Well, crap. This leaves us with an 18 (sans-arch mage) caster level in Chord, but not having to take the Ur-P practiced at all because the extra two Chord levels will bump it up.
sparkster4242
11-30-04, 03:52 AM Franco:
some time ago i tried to find exactly that - Swamp Witch is pretty much the only thing i came up with. well ... Asha'Man, from Wheel of Time, was second-best. of course, you would have to rewrite the entire class to make it fit in a D&D campaign...

that being said, if you are willing to lose one arcane caster-level, there are lots of decent choices that will still get you into UP at 6th-level. Monk, Barbarian, Fighter, Cleric, Paladin, Marshall - basically anything with a good Fort save. I think theres even a Bard variant with good Fort...

it sounds a little odd, but Cleric 1/ Wiz 4 is a pretty good prefix for UP - take Trickery as one of your domains to up your max ranks in Bluff, use all those 1st-level skill points to buy ranks in Bluff and Knowledge (Religion/Planes) as class skills, gain all armor proficiencies, shields, and simple weapons - aside from the fact that you wont be getting any caster-level from it, Cleric is very nearly an ideal choice.

hmm, isnt there a familiar that grants Iron Will? that could help reduce the feat crunch a bit...

i cant imagine why you would be worried about UP caster-level - he doesnt get any new spells after 10th-level anyway. if i had decent arcane casting, most of my spells that _needed_ caster-level would be arcane, and the UP would play second-fiddle with healing and divination. That way, you could spend more time in arcane PrC's, and get some nifty benefits that Wizard levels dont provide.

kiwi:
im afraid not - the UP gains an extra benefit from 'levels in other spellcasting classes, not 'caster levels in other classes'. its not your Wizard caster-level that is relevant, its your levels in the Wizard class.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Franco Un-American 11-27-04, 08:38 PM	I was wondering if it was possible to have a 20th lvl. character with 20 caster levels & lvl.9 spells in both a divine & arcane spellcasting class? I imagine it'd have something to do with Ur-Priest, True Necromancer, and/or Mustic Theurge (or perhaps all three?) Any help? PS: All three of those PrC's are usable. Also, if necessay, divine/psionic is OK too.
Caelic 11-27-04, 10:57 PM	Close. You want Sublime Chord and Apostle of Peace, used in conjunction with Practiced Spellcaster. Bard 8/AoP2/Sublime Chord 2/Mystic Theurge 8, just f'rinstance, nets you a Sublime Chord caster level of 18...20 with Practiced Spellcaster. Your AoP caster level, meantime, is your AoP level (10) plus 1/2 of your caster levels from other classes. Your bard CL is 20, and so is your Sublime Chord caster level--your net AoP caster level is 30. This can be jacked considerably higher with some tweaks, but this exceeds your requirements without getting as cheesy as it could possibly be.
Mirikon 11-27-04, 11:16 PM	True Necromancer, combined with a pair of Practised Spellcaster feats (since when you take Practiced Spellcaster, it only applies to one spellcasting class) does the trick nicely. Clr 3/Wiz 3/TN 14 is the build you want. Other than that, I don't know of anything. You could always make one up, though, if your DM will allow it.
Ramses III 11-27-04, 11:22 PM	Practiced Spellcaster doesn't give you spells per day or spells known, so it doesn't work for this application. You would have to take some combination like the one Caelic proposes 2 posts above this one, using PrC's with an independent progression that goes to level 9 in 10 levels and apply MT or somesuch to it.
LordKiwi 11-28-04, 06:23 AM	A nice simle Build would be Wizard 9 / Ur-priest 2 / Mystic Theurge 9 with Practiced spellcaster (arcane). Wizard: CL 18+2 = 20 Ur-priest: CL 11+9 = 20 Nice and simle and you only need one Practiced Spellcaster feat and don't suffer the limitations of Sublime Chord (few spells known) or Apostle of Peace (Vow of Peace & Poverty). Lord Kiwi,
Burning Duck 11-28-04, 09:23 AM	If you want also a good BAB go Wizard5/Eldricht Knight5/Mystic Theurge8/UR-Priest2 Base Attack Bonus: +12/+7/+2 Saves: +7 +4 +14 [25] (not counting Iron Will) Hit Dices: 13d4 + 5d6 + 2d8 Skill Points: (2+INTmod)x23 Not huge CL however...
sparkster4242 11-28-04, 10:31 AM	A Wiz 9 / UP 2 / MT 9 only has a 15 divine caster-level. 2 (UP) + 9 (MT) + .5(9 Wiz) = 15. Another Practised Spellcaster can bring that up to 19, though. dont forget, UP gets extra caster-level from levels in other spellcasting classes, but MT is not a spellcasting class. hmm, try Wiz 4 / Swamp Witch 1 / UP 2 / MT 10 / Wiz 2 / UP 1. arcane caster-level is 6(Wiz) + 1(SW) + 10(MT) = 17 divine caster-level is 3(UP) + 10(MT) +.5(6 Wiz) = 16 a couple of Practised Spellcasters can bring it up to 20/20, with 9th-level spells in both. Swamp Witch is a PrC from Mongoose's Ultimate Prestige Classes v.2, i think - the important parts about it are the easy pre-req's, +1 spellcasting, and +2 base Fort save. In order to pull this one off, you will need to find a way to gain Bluff as a class skill - the names of the feats to do that escape me at the moment. feat choices are pretty limited for the first 5-6 levels, but once you make it into UP, they are wide open.
Franco Un-American 11-28-04, 02:05 PM	Excellent, lotsa responses. BAB isn't important for this build, though, so the Knight is out. Also, Unfortunately, any 3rd party material is unusable in this ampaign, so the swamp witch is out as well. Finally, Ur-Priest works better than the Apostle of Peace, as this is intended to be a villain. I think I'll end up using 10 levels of Mystic Theurge, 2 levels of Ur-Priest, and 8 levels of Sorcerer. This will give me a base of 18 arcane and 16 divine. As a human, I'll take that feat mentioned below to make Know (religion, and perhaps the planes, depending on how many skills that gives you), 2 Practiced Spellcasters, Empower Spell, Iron Will, Spell Focus (Evil), Arcane Disciple (more sorcerer spells known!), and that feat in the XPH that gives extra skill points, if necessary. So, any good? PS: For the record, I much prefer the sorcerer to the wizard
mycroft65536 11-28-04, 02:46 PM	you need level9 sorc, for the save requirement for ur-priest(fort+3)
Franco Un-American 11-28-04, 03:02 PM	Looks like that's out the window... I'll just need to find a PrC that gives +1 caster & +2 Fort with almost no skill req's...or just go with the build mentioned above my last post.
LordKiwi 11-29-04, 04:05 AM	A Wiz 9 / UP 2 / MT 9 only has a 15 divine caster-level. 2 (UP) + 9 (MT) + .5(9 Wiz) = 15. Another Practised Spellcaster can bring that up to 19, though. dont forget, UP gets extra caster-level from levels in other spellcasting classes, but MT is not a spellcasting class. Your wizard spellcaster level is effectivly 18 so the ur-priest CL is 2 (UP) + 9 (MT) + .5(18 Wiz) = 20 Mind you this is an area of some ambiguity in the rules, but most people I've seen use this version, counting +1 to existing spellcasting class as a spellcasting class level (which I think it is). Lord Kiwi,
LaneDreast 11-29-04, 09:11 AM	I don't have my books with me, but doesn't dragonslayer give +1 BAB, Good fort and wisdom, and +1 spellcasting? It does have two feat requirements, but it would allow you to qualify for spellsword. Drow 0 Wiz 5/DS 1/Spellsword 1/Ur-priest 2/MT10/Devotee of Krianshelee or whatever it is called 1. Not many feats available for free use. Dodge, iron will, spell focus evil, lichloved, and something else. You do get the bonus feat from wizard. You can even drop in sorc instead of wizard, but the feat loss is a big impact. Edit: I also forgot the last prestige class spell progression. Use some of that instead of MT as long as it gives double caster level progression.
Nightspirit 11-29-04, 09:48 AM	a 18th level sorcerer know only one 9th level spell... wizard works better in this way
Franco Un-American 11-29-04, 08:09 PM	Well, if +1 to spellcasting class counted as one class level, then I'd just go with Sor/UP/MT, but that just won't work ITC. Guess Ur-Priest 1, MT 10, Dragonslayer 1, wizard 8 (man, I hate so few spells/day, but I need the skills. tough trade). That is, if it does what it says it does (I have a snaking suspicion it gives +1 CL at 2nd. not 1st) Otherwise, a lot of pleading (and a $20 under the table) may allow the Ur-Priest build. (I'm not really interested in a meleeist, so until I take a quick look at it, I see little point in Spellsword) PS: I'd hoped to use Arcane Disciple to help with my Sorcerer spells known. I'm already using Wisdom for spells, so it wouldn't hurt.
PhaedrusXY 11-29-04, 08:19 PM	True Necromancer, combined with a pair of Practised Spellcaster feats (since when you take Practiced Spellcaster, it only applies to one spellcasting class) does the trick nicely. Clr 3/Wiz 3/TN 14 is the build you want. Other than that, I don't know of anything. You could always make one up, though, if your DM will allow it.You only get 8th level spells with this build (both divine and arcane). Also, your caster level is only 19 in each, even with Practiced Spellcaster. True Necromancer has 4 levels that grant an arcane level or a divine level, but not both.
SaintX 11-29-04, 08:56 PM	http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=340926 bard 7 / mindbender 1 / ur priest 2 / sublime chord 2 / mystic theurge 8 9th level spells in both. unsure about caster level.
LaneDreast 11-29-04, 09:32 PM	Well, besides the melee application of spellsword, it has other practical uses. 15% reduction allows one to throw in an obscene amount of armor abilities. So, we have the +x bracers of (+5) abilties. Next is the +1 twilight mithral full plate of (+8) abilities. Finally, a +1 animated buckler of (+6) abilities. That's extremely useful. Also, you already qualify for spellsword, and thus you increase saves, BAB and spell casting in one shot. The BAB increase is worth it in this build simply because of all the 1/2 HD bab progressions. Also, you want the second level of ur-priest for rebuking to man handle divine feats such as divine metamagic.
amalcon 11-30-04, 01:27 AM	Something I've been tooling around with: Bard 4 Marshal 1 Ur-Priest 4 Nar Demonbinder 1 Sublime Chord 2 Mystic Theurge 6 (ur-p + chord) Arch-Mage 2 Feats are tricky, but with 4 for ur-p/ND/chord (including arcane preparation for vile spells for the level 3 spell req), a non-human can just barely qualify for everything in time. This gives a total of +11 BAB (actually better than straight up Wizzy), 8th level Bardic casting, 18th level Ur-Priest casting (20th with practiced), and 16th level chord casting after the arch levels (20th with practiced). If your DM allows the Contemplative with the Ur-Priest, swap out two ur-priest levels for contemplative and True Necro. Another option would be a Drow 0 and take that PGTF thing. Anyway, I personally enjoy the 1 level of Nar Demonbinder to qualify for sublime chord bit; you can probably do better, but I like the sleight of hand feel it's got. Plus, the extra 4th level spells can be nice. If you pull off the drow 0/yath-thing or the contemplative/TN, the single demonbinder level is worth its weight in gold. Edit: Just noticed that there's no room for practiced casters. Well, crap. This leaves us with an 18 (sans-arch mage) caster level in Chord, but not having to take the Ur-P practiced at all because the extra two Chord levels will bump it up.
sparkster4242 11-30-04, 03:52 AM	Franco: some time ago i tried to find exactly that - Swamp Witch is pretty much the only thing i came up with. well ... Asha'Man, from Wheel of Time, was second-best. of course, you would have to rewrite the entire class to make it fit in a D&D campaign... that being said, if you are willing to lose one arcane caster-level, there are lots of decent choices that will still get you into UP at 6th-level. Monk, Barbarian, Fighter, Cleric, Paladin, Marshall - basically anything with a good Fort save. I think theres even a Bard variant with good Fort... it sounds a little odd, but Cleric 1/ Wiz 4 is a pretty good prefix for UP - take Trickery as one of your domains to up your max ranks in Bluff, use all those 1st-level skill points to buy ranks in Bluff and Knowledge (Religion/Planes) as class skills, gain all armor proficiencies, shields, and simple weapons - aside from the fact that you wont be getting any caster-level from it, Cleric is very nearly an ideal choice. hmm, isnt there a familiar that grants Iron Will? that could help reduce the feat crunch a bit... i cant imagine why you would be worried about UP caster-level - he doesnt get any new spells after 10th-level anyway. if i had decent arcane casting, most of my spells that _needed_ caster-level would be arcane, and the UP would play second-fiddle with healing and divination. That way, you could spend more time in arcane PrC's, and get some nifty benefits that Wizard levels dont provide. kiwi: im afraid not - the UP gains an extra benefit from 'levels in other spellcasting classes, not 'caster levels in other classes'. its not your Wizard caster-level that is relevant, its your levels in the Wizard class.