Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jaisin 02-01-06, 04:03 PM	I'm mesmerized by the Gestalt rules. So I have a question - Is it possible for a Rogue 20//Fighter 1/Rokugan Ninja to have +20d6 Sneak Attack bonus with a full BAB progression? The Sneak Attack ability would alternate after taking the first level in Fighter. . . So, would this work?
Prominence 02-01-06, 04:10 PM	No, it wouldn't. Gestalt rules say to use the better progression if two classes have the same ability. Your example is -similar- to the Fighter 1 / Sorc 19 / Wizard 20 getting a BaB every level or the Fighter 20 / Psychic Warrior 20's bonus feat problem. edit: my statement comes from this line in the srd. Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class. Most people consider sneak attack progression has the same class feature (as well as fighter bonus feat progression).
Jaisin 02-01-06, 04:19 PM	I thought there had to be something wrong with that. Thanks for clearing that up. . .
Dakron_Tundrick 02-01-06, 05:23 PM	Now I am not sure what the Rokugan Ninja is, but the ninja from the Complete Adventurer has an ability called sudden strike, which is different than sneak attack, only works when target is flat footed. So as long as you meat the requirements for both when attacking they should stack. Seems overpowered in my book but if memory serves me right, since they are mechanically different they would stack under gestault rules.
Malakai_Demonos 02-01-06, 07:30 PM	Yes, the sneak attack would stack. Believe me this is not too over powered. I easily build a ninja//pirate//lots of other classes that had a 64 AC and it took minimum effort. However, the sneak attack stacks because it comes from seperate classes, much like if you were getting bonus feats from seperate classes, like fighter//wizard or scout//fighter. Now what would be a little over powered is if you took the feat from expanded scionics that allows you to reroll 1's on sneak attack damage. Plus if something is immune to critical hits, then you are up the creek. Plus you have to win initiative or flank to get your sneak attack in your build.
PhaedrusXY 02-01-06, 07:42 PM	No, it wouldn't. Gestalt rules say to use the better progression if two classes have the same ability. Your example is -similar- to the Fighter 1 / Sorc 19 / Wizard 20 getting a BaB every level or the Fighter 20 / Psychic Warrior 20's bonus feat problem. edit: my statement comes from this line in the srd. Most people consider sneak attack progression has the same class feature (as well as fighter bonus feat progression).There is no bonus feat problem with Ftr20//PW20 gestalt. They get all the feats they're entitled to. The BAB "problem" of Ftr1/Sorc19//Wiz20 is solved by using partial BAB progression. The Sneak Attack dice stack, also. Gestalt is supposed to be more powerful.
CrimsonDeath 02-01-06, 08:11 PM	Plus if something is immune to critical hits, then you are up the creek. I think there are spells that let you score criticals and sneak attacks against constructs and undead. Some ranks in Use Magic Device and a couple of wands help with that. You're still up the creek against oozes and plants, though. Plus you have to win initiative or flank to get your sneak attack in your build. Unless you use feint actions (preferably with Improved Feint), Neraph Charge, Neraph Throw, or grab a wand of (Improved) Invisibility and take ranks in Use Magic Device.
Prominence 02-01-06, 09:09 PM	There is no bonus feat problem with Ftr20//PW20 gestalt. They get all the feats they're entitled to. The BAB "problem" of Ftr1/Sorc19//Wiz20 is solved by using partial BAB progression. The Sneak Attack dice stack, also. Gestalt is supposed to be more powerful. According to the variant rules, if it was regular sneak attack it wouldn't. They would be the same class feature. I was using the sorc/wiz as an example to why it wouldn't work. Please reread my original post and you'll find I imply partial BAB is why it doesn't work. Yes, I know gestalt is supposed to be more powerful. I don't think +20d6 sneak attack is particularly amazing considering what gestalt can do, either. I just think, by the rules, it does not progress (sudden strike is completely different though). If I recall, there was stuff on the Unearthed Arcana board arguing about the figher/psywar bonus feat line, but it's still a non-spellcaster. I think there are spells that let you score criticals and sneak attacks against constructs and undead. Some ranks in Use Magic Device and a couple of wands help with that. You're still up the creek against oozes and plants, though. There are actually spells that let you crit plants, undead, and constructs. However, as a current myth thread seemed to prove, a wand with a swift spell still takes a standard action to activate (which is sorted out in spell compendium).
HotSake 02-01-06, 09:11 PM	Pretty sure those spells have a duration of 1 round, and thus wouldn't work from a wand. Spell Compendium says even if the spell in the wand is cast as a swift action, it's still a standard action to activate the wand. The spell would run out just before your next turn unless you gained an extra action with which to attack, or a method of attacking with your remaining move action. Blink Shirt -> Shadow Pounce would work, assuming you blinked to a flanking position or your opponent was already flatfooted.
tiluvias99 02-01-06, 10:25 PM	...mutters incoherently to himself... ...Rogue 7/Spelltheif 1/Spymaster (Song and Silence) 1/Nightsong Enforcer 1/Theif Taker (Wheel of Time) 1/Ronin 1/Ninja of the Crescent Moon (Sword and Fist) 1... gets 11d6 sneak attack in 13 levels... have to work on the feat prequisites, but BAB works fine... ...20d6 at 20th, non-gestalt, may be possible...
Reinhart 02-01-06, 11:18 PM	...mutters incoherently to himself... ...Rogue 7/Spelltheif 1/Spymaster (Song and Silence) 1/Nightsong Enforcer 1/Theif Taker (Wheel of Time) 1/Ronin 1/Ninja of the Crescent Moon (Sword and Fist) 1... gets 11d6 sneak attack in 13 levels... have to work on the feat prequisites, but BAB works fine... ...20d6 at 20th, non-gestalt, may be possible... Reread the errata for NotCM . . . that 13th level character has a BAB of +8 if Theif Taker is a full attack bonus class. Ninja of the Crecent Moon is a 3/4 BAB class with only a good reflex save. I'm sure it's possible to get close to 20d6 using 1 level dips in all the silly cross-genre PrC's we can find but either the build would be laughably silly to read and/or would have horrible BAB and at least an almost non-existant willsave.