Post/Author/DateTime	Post
vardock 01-02-06, 04:03 PM	this character was made with the BOED, so i explained some of the details for those who do not have it. this is a 20th level build that is just riduclous. the vow was taken at 16th level so he could have the benefit of the 2 manuals, I checked the table and the monetary value is approiate (with a little room to spare), the lack of bonus feats reflects this. made with the 32 point buy in method. catfolk monk 17. level adj +1 racial +2 saint str:10+ 2 vow dex:14+4manual+4 racial+6 vow con: 10+2 saint+4 vow Int:13 cha: 9 +2 racial+4 saint Wiz:18+5 level+5 manual+2 saint+8 vow skills: 20 each: spot,jump,tumble,escape artist, and listen feats: sacret vow, vow of poverty, Intuitive attack, combat expertice, touch of golden ice, sanctify KI strike, Holy Ki Strike, Improved Combat expertice, improved toughness, great fortitude saves, fort: +18 reflex:22 will:+27 this is what I get from the vow of poverty. +10 exalted bonus to ac (works wile armor but protects against brilliant energy weapons) +3 deflection +2 natural to ac. damage reduction 10/evil, +5 enhansment bonus on all attacks and is good aligned. no need for food, water, or air. +8/+6/+4/+2 enhansment bonus to scores of my choice. energy resistance 15, true seeing, regeneration, freedom of movement, +3 resistance bonus on all saveing throws, Immune to detect thoughts, discern lies,and any attempt to discern his alignment. can life in -50 to 140 degrees without haveing to make a fortitude save. and 3 bonus exalted feats. this is what I get from saint hood: type changes to outsider (native), insight bonus to ac equal to wisdom bonus. save Dc's for all spells spell-like abalites, super natural, and extraordinary abalites increase by two. nay weapon wielded it treated as holy and does an addational 1d6 damage to evil creaturesa and 1d8 to evil outsiders (plus the extra 2d6 form holy Ki strike). any evil creature that strikes a saint with a natural attack takes holy damage as if hit by the saints attack. spell like abalites: at will-guidance,virtue,resistance, and bless. damage reduction 10/evil, fast healing 10, immune to acid,cold, electricty, and petrification attacks. low light vision, 60ft dark vision. as a free action, I can have a nimbus of light that surrounds my by 20 ft, with the following qualites, a double strength magic circle against evil (which gives me an addational +1 to ac and saves, it would be more but the normal bonus has the same nam as previous bonuses). and a lesser globe of invulnerability ,both cast as a cleric of a level equal to my hit dice. fire resistance 10 and +4 racial bonus against poison. permanent tongues spell. +2con +2wis +4cha here is where it is broken: AC: 10+ 9dex+ 14 wiz (for being a monk)+14 insight (from sainthood), +3 monk+ 3 natural armor (2 from vow 1 racial)+ 3 deflection+10 exalted. this comes up to an AC of 66 with a touch AC of 53. using improved combat expertice I can get them up to 78 and a touch of 65. with the nimbus I can bost this by another one. this combined with the special powers and immunites of both the vow of poverty and the saint template as well as a monks spell resistance, makes him tougher than even some Epic Characters
Aramas 01-02-06, 04:18 PM	Check this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=305263) out.
Largegnome 01-02-06, 04:31 PM	this is a 20th level build that is just riduclous Never use that word on the CO board :D ...unless you just created a character that can slap Pun pun on his scaly face and survive, that is ;)
Urnsk 01-02-06, 05:50 PM	Never use that word on the CO board :D ...unless you just created a character that can slap Pun pun on his scaly face and survive, that is ;) A build can be quite ridiculous without resorting to infinite loops... saying that a something isn't good because it can't beat Pun-pun is rather like suggesting it isn't good because Ao can *****-slap it into submission. It's just a pointless comment. I assume this is an early attempt by the OP; rather than ridicule him, offer suggestions. Aramas' post was more helpful...
Caelic 01-02-06, 06:11 PM	I quite like the build. It's simple, solid, logical, and doesn't rely on bizarre combinations of classes to work. Everything he used makes sense together, and he didn't cripple himself in several areas to get a very high stat in one. (Though the VoP is a serious handicap at high levels.) The build's playable from start to finish without any glaring weak spots.
PhaedrusXY 01-02-06, 06:32 PM	The Con is too low for my tastes. For a character that will primarily be in melee all the time, I'd never start with less than a 14 in Con if at all possible. In a point buy game, you're often better off spreading your points out and starting with several 14s than sticking them all into an 18 (unless you're playing a caster which "replaces" his physical stats somehow, etc). Also, why Combat Expertise and Improved Combat Expertise? The character has a good AC without them, and taking them forces you to put a 13 in Int. You don't use Combat Expertise as a prereq for anything, either. I'd drop both of those, lower your Int to 8, and boost your Con. And why Great Fortitude? There are a ton of better feats.
Urnsk 01-02-06, 07:12 PM	I quite like the build. It's simple, solid, logical, and doesn't rely on bizarre combinations of classes to work. Everything he used makes sense together, and he didn't cripple himself in several areas to get a very high stat in one. (Though the VoP is a serious handicap at high levels.) The build's playable from start to finish without any glaring weak spots. The funny thing is I still know a lot of folks who wouldn't allow it because "It's too munchkin." However, the build is solid, not ridiculous. From an actual game-play stance (something this board all too often lacks), it is very nice. From a theoretic stance, it has room for improvement.
Sisyfos 01-02-06, 07:20 PM	Its a classic monk with VoP. I have to agree with Phaedrus on the CON issue though. Especially when you have no magical means at your disposal to increase the con further. You also want to put something to STR perhaps to address the issue that the character does not hit very hard. The AC is good and its not that much worse if you take some points from wisdom to increase con and perhaps STR. The character is not broken though. It has high AC, pretty low offensive power and not that many tricks at his sleeve. The Saint template is a powerful one and if your DM allows you to have it for a starting character... go for it. Just remember that as a cleric/monk/sacred fist you might be better off with a character thats in the end, pretty similar to yours. You could get access to polymorph any object with trickery domain or miracle. The AC (which you seem interested in) would be fine with 10(base)+WIS(monk)+8(bracers_of_armor)+5 (enhancement bonus if DM allows)+DEX+5(deflection-shieldoffaith-for example)+5(natural-armor-enhancement)+19(polymorph-planetar)=53+DEX+WIS (this is probably not totally accurate, but the ballpark is correct) and you have not even exhausted your spells or equipment supply. Add in that you can get stuff like displacement, blinking, haste, unarmed enchantments, flying et cetera it becomes apparent why VoP loses power at higher levels. Anyhow. Your character is fine. Sisyfos
jstorrie 01-02-06, 07:25 PM	Decent, but certainly old news to the CO board.
Largegnome 01-03-06, 07:45 AM	A build can be quite ridiculous without resorting to infinite loops... saying that a something isn't good because it can't beat Pun-pun is rather like suggesting it isn't good because Ao can *****-slap it into submission. It's just a pointless comment. I assume this is an early attempt by the OP; rather than ridicule him, offer suggestions. Aramas' post was more helpful... Uhm. Two points. 1) I was not ridiculeing him. I was just...you know, joking? 2) since many build here resort to number that are much higher than the ones he posts, and this board is all about number crunching, often, I was simply (and, I'll repeat, ironically) pointing out how the word "ridiculous" was not really applicable here. I find the build good, and the character one that could be played in a regular game. Surely, a good build and, BTW, one I happen to like, but nothing "ridiculous", "game breaking", "broken", "OMFG it PWNZZ" and similar statements. BTW, you think exactly the same as I, since you posted: The funny thing is I still know a lot of folks who wouldn't allow it because "It's too munchkin." However, the build is solid, not ridiculous. That's exactly the same concept I was expressing, but without smilies, since I consider "ridiculous" something I'd not play or see in a normal game. Man, relax. It's a game.
nachtmeister 01-03-06, 08:28 AM	you aren't allowed to read/use those manuals !
Sisyfos 01-03-06, 08:48 AM	That is why he took VoP at 16th level only. He buys the manuals first, uses them, then rethinks his view on life "OMG I was so selfish reading those manuals instead of selling them and giving the money to the poor!!! I'll never own anything ever again!" A valid view in my opinion.
Mommy was an Orc 01-03-06, 11:11 AM	Except that you could easily also attempt to persuade the DM to allow you to gain access to a Miracle from the high priest of your god to have never read the manuals in the 1st place, thereby allowing you to truly atone for that selfishness. Look - 300K for the poor! I wouldn't allow a VoP to work until someone made that step. That is why he took VoP at 16th level only. He buys the manuals first, uses them, then rethinks his view on life "OMG I was so selfish reading those manuals instead of selling them and giving the money to the poor!!! I'll never own anything ever again!" A valid view in my opinion.
lostone 01-03-06, 11:53 AM	That is why he took VoP at 16th level only. He buys the manuals first, uses them, then rethinks his view on life "OMG I was so selfish reading those manuals instead of selling them and giving the money to the poor!!! I'll never own anything ever again!" A valid view in my opinion.There was some exploration of this maybe 6 months ago. They included the manuals, but also things like grafts (which are hard to consider property once they are attached and become part of your own body). I'm not finding the thread in my subscriptions, it might have been pruned.
vardock 01-03-06, 12:10 PM	I might ditch improved combat expertice for axomatic strike, to boost his offense power. but i will not get rid of combat expertice. without it. a half orc barbarian 1/fighter 6 (for weapon focus and improved weapon focus)/ frenzied berserker8/half orc paragon 3 (for the +2 bonus to strength)/ eye of grumish 2, who has 18str+2racial+5level+5manual+6belt+2para gon levles+4 rage +4 eye of grumish (while rageing), and +10 for the frenzy, wielding a +5 humanoid bane weapon could still hit me without a natural 20. :D as for the low con, with fast healing 10, damage reduction 10/evil, the extra HP from Improved toughness (which is just as much as if I had +2 to con) powerful saves, and the only way he will ever get hit is on a natural 20 he will not be takeing enough damage to worry about. as for str and damage, do not foreget that all attacks he makes have +5 to hit and damage form VOP and he uses his wisdom mod for melee, as well as the +3d6 to evil creatures and the fort save they must make every time i hit them or else they take dex damage thanks to touch of golden ice, with the added 2d6 from axomatic strike I am trading improved combat expertice for, the bonus i get from loosing my 13 int for str will be neglagable. as for great fortitude the reason I picked it was that my fort save is the weakest. but i may trade it for nimphs kiss which will give me another 17 skill points, +2 to all cha based checks, and +1 on saves against spells. as for the handicap at high levels for vop. there is an advantage vop characters have over those with powerful magic items. their powers cannot be stolen, sundered, dispelled,disjointed, or targeted by a soul's treasure lost spell. the only way he will lose the vow is if he knowingly commits an evil act (which he can attone for to get the exalted feats back) of if he willingly breaks the vow. and finally, the only way anyone will ever beat pun-pun, a creature with infinite str,con,dex,int,cha,wis and divine rank, is if they make a character that can travel thorough time. anyone who disses someones character beacuse it does not compete with pun-pun the infinite is probably an immature child.
Largegnome 01-03-06, 12:36 PM	and finally, the only way anyone will ever beat pun-pun, a creature with infinite str,con,dex,int,cha,wis and divine rank, is if they make a character that can travel thorough time. anyone who disses someones character beacuse it does not compete with pun-pun the infinite is probably an immature child. ...and that's exactly the point of irony, since you can't beat pun-pun. Saying something is not "ridiculous" is not properly saying something is not viable-.- With this, I'm done with this discussion. Hope someone less "childish and immature" than me takes the time to explain what "irony", "joke", "sarcasm" and similar terms mean. Bye.
Mommy was an Orc 01-03-06, 01:35 PM	Take my Barbarian 3/Warlock 4/Chameleon 10/Exotic Weapon Master 3 build. He turns himself into a Sun Giant for a 54(+20) Strength by casting Polymorph/Heroism(+2) on himself and boosting Strength. He adds +4 to hit/damage from Combat Focus and has a +16 BAB to start off with. Add Haste for +1 and he's already at a +45 to hit you. Listening Lorecall gives him Blindsight, so he can see you in a Fog, but you can't see him - True Seeing being blocked by fog of any kind. Add a +5 Weapon, WF, that's a +51. Throw in any kind of Quickened Fog and you lose all your Dodge(combat expertise), Dex bonus dropping your AC to 57, and I get an additional +2 to hit you. After all that, he then goes into a Rage for another +2 to hit you. Now using Improved Trip and his Bastard Sword and EWM, he touch attacks you 95% of the time to Trip you, then automatically wins the opposed check because his Strength+Size means you can't win even if he rolls a 1 and you a 20. i.e. you'll get hit by this guy on a 2/2/5/10/15 for something on the order of 3d8+57 damage per shot by just assuming he's wielding a +5 Bastard Sword, +1 Sizing - as he can cast GMW +5 at 15th level, that isn't a problem. Even with your DR 10, that still means an average of 3.55 hits per round for damage around 213 hp before crits. I likely kill you even if I miss with the 1st touch attack and simply hit with the 2nd one. And hey, my build's playable 1-20, too... as for the low con, with fast healing 10, damage reduction 10/evil, the extra HP from Improved toughness (which is just as much as if I had +2 to con) powerful saves, and the only way he will ever get hit is on a natural 20 he will not be takeing enough damage to worry about.
PhaedrusXY 01-03-06, 02:40 PM	as for the low con, with fast healing 10, damage reduction 10/evil, the extra HP from Improved toughness (which is just as much as if I had +2 to con) powerful saves, and the only way he will ever get hit is on a natural 20 he will not be takeing enough damage to worry about. Yes, you have all that... at level 20. At level 2, you'll have fewer hit points than a commoner with a mediocre Con score, and none of that stuff. So if you want to start at level 16+, having a low Con for this build might work. Otherwise, you'll die long before you reach the high levels, unless your DM is a wuss and pulls punches all the time. But even at level 20, you're still getting hit on a natural 20. If a blackguard rolls a natural 20 to hit you with his +4 scythe of DOOOOOOM with which he's Power Attacked for +20 with, and cast Corrupt Weapon on so that all critical threats automatically are confirmed, you will die in one hit. If you had put a decent score in Con, you might survive. And that is 100% core. I don't need a monstrosity built with 10 different splat books to kill you. All I need is a little luck (or statistics), and if you play the character enough, the DM will eventually roll a 20 to hit you with some nasty villain.
Mommy was an Orc 01-03-06, 03:42 PM	Hey, I only used one of the MM, Races of Destiny and 3 of the Complete Books. That's hardly 10 splat books. :P I don't need a monstrosity built with 10 different splat books to kill you.
vardock 01-04-06, 11:48 AM	I will swap 2 points of dex ans str for con. as for your strategy, there are flaws to it. 1:I have a land speed of 90FT, I can easily escape your fog and buy time to heal after your attacks. 2: in head to head combat you would beat me, since you are now a giant, but if I play him smart I can wait for your giant form to wear off, and for your other abalibes to burn out (other than the warlock), at which time you will be fatigued from rage, and an easier target. 3:you work under the assumption that I will let you have a full attack and attack me continuesly. with fast healing and by speed, I can easily outlast you with a hit and run strategy, with my current setup you will have an attack as a standard action and as an attack of oppurnity when I leave, both of which I will be fully healed of by the time I let you catch up to me. with your build in mind you have inspired a few changes to my character. as to the blackguard thing, chances are by the time he rolls a natural 20, I may have already killed him with +32 to hit and flurry of blows, with damage of 2d8+2d6+6 it is unlikely he will roll a critical in time. but my character changes will help me out in both situations.
vardock 01-04-06, 12:04 PM	I have taken 2 points from str and dex (which lowers my ac by 1) and added 4 to con, since that was his biggest flaw so he should do better against natural 20's. as for feats, I traded great fortitude,touch of golden ice, and improved combat expertice for dodge, mobility, and spring attack. with my 90ft speed I will be able to make sure that the only attack they get is the attack of oppurnity they get when i leave a square, which I will have a +4 against thanks to mobility. with an ac of 69-74 against this attack and with my damage reduction,fast healing,and newly improved constitution, All I have left to fear is vorpal weapons, but as far as I know, only a fatespinner can deal with that.
Mommy was an Orc 01-04-06, 01:46 PM	None of which actually works for you...your character can't hit and run me because I then trip you with a readied action. Once you get tripped, then, and only then, do I throw up the Quickened Fog/Rage. At which point I have a full attack and then you still die. My character only gets a +6 to hit for being a Giant due to the -2 for size - I can still trip you as a human. And 90' of movement means you're slower than me when I want you to be. Be aware, I'm not even pulling out my full capacity here - this character has a maxxed out UMD score and the right items to boost it further. i.e. he can read 9th level scrolls of arcane/divine if he wants to do so. And if my character doesn't want you to, you can't threaten him - you can't fly, remember... (edit: also didn't notice your to-hit chance there - it isn't that hard to make it nearly impossible for you to hit me - +5 Heavy Animated Shield, +5 Mithril Full Plate, 20 base AC, Ring of Protection +5 is already at AC 45) 1:I have a land speed of 90FT, I can easily escape your fog and buy time to heal after your attacks. 2: in head to head combat you would beat me, since you are now a giant, but if I play him smart I can wait for your giant form to wear off, and for your other abalibes to burn out (other than the warlock), at which time you will be fatigued from rage, and an easier target. 3:you work under the assumption that I will let you have a full attack and attack me continuesly. with fast healing and by speed, I can easily outlast you with a hit and run strategy, with my current setup you will have an attack as a standard action and as an attack of oppurnity when I leave, both of which I will be fully healed of by the time I let you catch up to me.
rilem 01-04-06, 02:01 PM	The problem with spring attack is that it cuts further into your already-limited offensive capability (which you've further nerfed by dumping Golden Ice). The PC is strong overall, as others have noted, but I think you're too defensive-minded. The best AC is still going to be beaten sometimes (Hunter's Mercy now auto-crits, too). Fogs, flying opponents and the like are still going to torment you at high levels. Have you given more thought to sisyfos' idea?
Mommy was an Orc 01-04-06, 02:14 PM	I think it is a good rule of thumb - if you can't consistently hit yourself except on a 20 or you can auto-kill yourself in one round, then you're too far weighted one way or the other. If for no other reason than if you meet an evil version of yourself, it isn't Russian Roulette on the first round or combat takes 5 days. As Rilem noted, the build is basically strong, but at 20th level, your guy is going to have problems with fogs and flying opponents that he can't resolve by himself. He's also going to have the problem that you're encouraging DMs to make monsters he's incapable of hittting or doing anything to. A Monster with an AC 10 lower than yours can't be hit by you... The problem with spring attack is that it cuts further into your already-limited offensive capability (which you've further nerfed by dumping Golden Ice). The PC is strong overall, as others have noted, but I think you're too defensive-minded. The best AC is still going to be beaten sometimes (Hunter's Mercy now auto-crits, too). Fogs, flying opponents and the like are still going to torment you at high levels.
lostone 01-04-06, 02:18 PM	(which you've further nerfed by dumping Golden Ice). No, that was a good decision. Touch of Golden Ice is only good at low levels. DC 14 (16 if you have Ability Focus) is very easilly beaten by just about any opponent at medium and higher levels, at that point you wasted a feat and might as well stop having opponents roll saves against it to speed up combat. At least that was my experiences with it when I took it without really analyzing it beforehand. But I do agree that the best defense is a good offense. No matter how high your AC, you can still be hit by an optimized BBEG who might even have a vorpal or some other big nasty weapon. If you're slapping him for minor damage it will take you a long time to bring him down and he gets many more chances to use his nasty weapon of DOOM against you (and much better odds of rolling critical hits against you). On the other hand if you take a few hits but take him down because you're hitting him for hundreds of damage each round, you're probably better off.
vardock 01-05-06, 03:50 PM	for the chamelion build, since I do not have info on that class I cannot develop a strategy against it, but I think tripping requires an attack roll, if so your trip is not fool proof, and as for the scrool thing, a 1st level wizard can do that. as for my characters role, He was not meant to go against the BBEG in melee. his role it to keep his minoins busy while the rest of the group takes on the BBEG. unless the BBEG is a spell caster, in which case my character would be the best choice to attack him, since he is either immune or highly resistant every spell, due to the saint template,improved evasion, spell resistance, and wonderful saves as for the touch of golden ice, at this point natural 1s are my only hope for success with it. but thanks to holy power and holy ki strike and other abalites I can do decent damage against evil creatures and bypass many forms of damage reduction. and I realized I can easily make it to where the BBEG will never be able to hit me. due to my +8dex modifier and my 20 ranks in tumble I can tumble away on any roll other than a natural 1. I am however consirering makeing him even more defensive-minded, his damage dealing capability will no longer exist. but he will be the fort Knox of D&D characters. he will be a monk 7/ apostle of peace 10. this will also allow him to wear protective magic items, despite the Vow of poverty. I will probably post him on another thread tommorow.
lostone 01-08-06, 08:01 AM	I am however consirering makeing him even more defensive-minded, his damage dealing capability will no longer exist. but he will be the fort Knox of D&D characters. he will be a monk 7/ apostle of peace 10. this will also allow him to wear protective magic items, despite the Vow of poverty. I will probably post him on another thread tommorow.How does he wear magic items without violating the VoP? Please post a link to the new thread when you start it (if you haven't already).
Ander Spectacular 01-08-06, 10:36 AM	AoP allows a character to use magical protective devices. -AS-
Esponer 01-08-06, 10:49 AM	Except that you could easily also attempt to persuade the DM to allow you to gain access to a Miracle from the high priest of your god to have never read the manuals in the 1st place, thereby allowing you to truly atone for that selfishness. Look - 300K for the poor! I wouldn't allow a VoP to work until someone made that step. But that's ridiculous. Someone dedicated to the path of the exalted, and to poverty, would not insist that some high priest take up his time and spell slots satisfying his sense of pride. "I got this from something that cost money, so I must rid myself of it" isn't logical at all. Those who take the vow of poverty forsake wealth and worldly possessions, they do not forsake gaining power from anything that costs money. An important distinction.
Mommy was an Orc 01-08-06, 12:32 PM	Insist? You're setting an example to others, yet you choose to retain the vestiges of wealth from your past because it is inconvenient for you to humbly beg to get rid of them? And the amount of wealth involved would likely feed an army of the poor for years? Any person with a Vow of Poverty that doesn't figure that one out doesn't deserve it. And as technically speaking, they are using a magic item, they don't benefit for VoP in any case. But that's ridiculous. Someone dedicated to the path of the exalted, and to poverty, would not insist that some high priest take up his time and spell slots satisfying his sense of pride. "I got this from something that cost money, so I must rid myself of it" isn't logical at all. Those who take the vow of poverty forsake wealth and worldly possessions, they do not forsake gaining power from anything that costs money. An important distinction.
Korg al Tarr 01-08-06, 01:11 PM	Unarmored fighter ver.2 Human Monk 2 Hexblade 3 Fighter 2 Blackguard 3(3 lv at 12 lv) Suel Archanamach 4(3 and 4 lv at 16 and 17 lv) Mystic Wanderer 1 Spellsword 2(2 lv at 20 lv) Dragonslayer 1 Arcane Duelist 2 Feats: 1. Dodge 1. Iron Will(Monk sub. OA) 1. Power Attack (Human) 3. Mobility F1. Cleave F2. Im. Sunder 6. Wepon Focus(for Arcane Duelist) 9. Combat Casting 12. Astetic Mage 15.??? 18.??? 20.???(Spellsword bonus) BAB 16 base saves F 16 R 14 W 21+2 Iron Will evasion Mettle immunity to fear Cha to saves and cha to saves against arcane spells(+12 and +24) Cha to armor x3(Astetic Mage, Mystic Wanderer, Arcane Duelist 2) (+36) AC: (starting dex 14(+4 tome +6 item)=24(+7) and cha 18(+5 tome +5 level + 6 item)=34(+12)) 10 + 36(cha)+7 dex+5 NA(item)+5 def.(item)+ 8 Armor(bracers) + 1 insight(item) +1 luck(item)= 73 touch 60 incorporeal touch 68 + can cast shield +4 to AC and can cast polymorph(war troll->feat Praticed spellcaster)