Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Talonos 01-12-07, 12:18 AM	First, if you are in my Utah based Third Era Quay campaign, stop reading. If you are in my New Hampshire based Quay campaign, go right ahead. I'm creating an antagonist for my group. My campaign world is fairly young, and this person, an elf, is literally the founder of the nine styles (using some magical means to drain the expertise of nine other warriors, and combining them into one). I want him to be really scary, but I also want him to have lots of maneuvers from all of the styles. My goals for this guys are one: to get as many "Ultimates" as possible (ninth level maneuvers) and two: to still be a reasonable fighter. I'm kind of thinking of a breakdown as follows: 1: Swordsage (It might be a typo, but apparently they get 6x skill points at level one instead of 4x skill points.) 2: Crusader (5 more maneuvers known; helps qualify for prerequisites for advanced maneuvers) 3-15: Warblade (Best progression of maneuvers known) 6-20: Master of Nine (Even better progression of known and readied maneuvers) So, what manuevers would I give this guy? What feats would work best with him? Before you ask, yes, he'll have a group. He leads his own monastery, and has two "High apprentices" (Level 7) and about a dozen level one guys.
Xaktsaroth 01-12-07, 12:34 AM	1: Swordsage (It might be a typo, but apparently they get 6x skill points at level one instead of 4x skill points.) This has been clarified by Cust Serv. It is indeed a typo, all classes have 4x at first level. :)
GaffeR 01-12-07, 12:51 AM	http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=683941
ressurrector 01-12-07, 01:00 AM	NVM guessing it's a type-o
Momar 01-12-07, 01:01 AM	I think it's supposed to be 16-20, he just missed the "1".
Shado 01-12-07, 04:01 AM	3-15: Warblade (Best progression of maneuvers known) Uh... no. That would be the Swordsage, followed by the Crusader. The Warblade knows the fewest maneuvers of the three. They have a better recovery mechanic than the Swordsage... and some prefer the Warblade's to the Crusader's, but that's a matter of opinion.
Darhelion 01-12-07, 09:19 AM	While I applaud your efforts to build strictly within the rules, this is a prime example of where I would suggest that the DM simply cheat. It may not be necessary, so the other optimizers may well be able to do everything you want with enough finagling, but I would honestly use the "magical draining of experiance" plot McGuffin as an excuse to give him some unique, can't-be-duplicated-by-anyone (who doesn't have similar levels of PLOT behind them) feats and/or special abilities from whatever rituals he's performed that just grant him whatever 9th level maneuvers you want. If you like the Warblade's recovery mechanic but want swordsage/crusader maneuver counts, for example, maybe he has a unique PrC that caps/meshes with MoNine and lets him use one class's recovery mechanic with another class's maneuvers. Or maybe his experiance-draining rituals stole a capstone (9th level) maneuver from each of his victims, which don't take known slots of his own nor require him to have the prereqs. Just my two cents; I know some people hate it when DMs cheat for their NPCs, but this guy sounds like he has enough room to do it. (And maybe, if you do cheat with him, your PCs might have the opportunity to find or learn the McGuffin that gave him the power to do this, and be faced with that as an option for how to beat him. Moral quandries about becoming that which you fight against, etc.) Above all, have fun and make him an interesting villain behind the scenes, before he shows up to pwn the PCs. Or get pwned by them, in his turn. Good luck!
Nifft 01-12-07, 09:57 AM	Give him a Maneuver-Draining Strike maneuver which allows him to steal whatever the PCs have and use it (blindly). He'll be entertaining and deadly, his power will level up with theirs, and they won't be able to defeat him until the PCs research some deep esoteric suicide maneuvers... ;) Cheers, -- N
Talonos 01-12-07, 10:58 AM	Gah... I mean to say sword-sage, not warblade. I just got the book a few days ago, and the terms are still a little confused for me. Actually, if you give a sword sage the adaptive style, can he recover all his manuevers as a full-round action? It says it allows you to "Reprepare" your manuevers, and I know that maneuvers are not Vance style spell slots, but I still can't help but think that if you reprepare your manuevers, you get them back, too. You're right, though. Perhaps DM cheating should be allowed. I'm sitting here trying to find ways with which he can fulfill the massive prerequisites for the ultimates (Most of which require five maneuvers from that discipline) and failing. Perhaps I could just ignore the prerequisites, or perhaps say that because he is the person who discovered and unified the nine styles, he can learn any of the disciplines with his swordsage levels, and then up his CR by one for plot purposes. Hmm...
NinjaDebugger 01-12-07, 11:26 AM	You're right, though. Perhaps DM cheating should be allowed. I'm sitting here trying to find ways with which he can fulfill the massive prerequisites for the ultimates (Most of which require five maneuvers from that discipline) and failing. Perhaps I could just ignore the prerequisites, or perhaps say that because he is the person who discovered and unified the nine styles, he can learn any of the disciplines with his swordsage levels, and then up his CR by one for plot purposes. 9 - Inferno Blast - 5 9 - Strike of Righteous Vitality - 3 9 - Time Stands Still - 4 9 - Strike of Perfect Clarity - 4 9 - Tornado Throw - 5 9 - Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike - 5 9 - Mountain Tombstone Strike - None 9 - Feral Death Blow - 4 9 - War Master's Charge - 4 Using the technique knowledge items can lower all of those requirements by 1, so it requires 4 + 2 + 3 + 3 + 4 + 4 + 3 + 3 = 26 prerequisite maneuvers to qualify for all the level 9's, plus 9 more to get them. That's a total of 35 maneuvers necessary. Swordsage 13 has 18 maneuvers known. Warblade 1 has 4 maneuvers known. Crusader 1 has 5 maneuvers known. Master of Nine 5 has 8 maneuvers known. That's 35 maneuvers known, plus nine stances. The real trick is figuring out how to get all those level 9 techs -learned.- The best I can figure out is one feat at level 18, plus 2 maneuvers learned at 18, one maneuver learned at 19, and 2 maneuvers learned at 20, for a total of six level 9 techniques.
Twili 01-12-07, 11:45 AM	The real trick is figuring out how to get all those level 9 techs -learned.- The best I can figure out is one feat at level 18, plus 2 maneuvers learned at 18, one maneuver learned at 19, and 2 maneuvers learned at 20, for a total of six level 9 techniques. or you could take crusader 1 / warblade 1 / ss 12 /motn 5 / ss 1 or something similiar so you can swap a previous known maneuver to a 9th level one. (PS I know the above won't work cause ss 13 doesn't let you swap lower level maneuvers)
Timlagor 01-12-07, 12:21 PM	Personally the first thing I'd dump is the Mo9 Feat requirements. I see no reason you shouldn't "McGuffin" him. Is there any particular reason you have him being 20th level? You can just give him a few extra levels if you don't want to McGuffin him. (and I don't think a 7th + a couple of 1st level characters are going to make much difference to a fight with a 20th level guy in it).
ressurrector 01-12-07, 05:04 PM	or just give him the "masters" items that grant him a maneuver known of 7th-9th. (in the item section) Make them slotless tattoos if you don't want the PCs to have them.
Talonos 01-12-07, 07:44 PM	Slotless tatoos... Hmmm... Well, in my campaign, you can't get above level 20 wthout something strange going on, so 20s the limit. I'd rather him not have the other maneuvers than have him above 20th level. The little guys might be able to white raven the big guy. I've heard that a large amount of little people can make a big difference if they use white raven stuff. Thanks a lot, guys.
NinjaDebugger 01-12-07, 08:08 PM	Slotless tatoos... Hmmm... Well, in my campaign, you can't get above level 20 wthout something strange going on, so 20s the limit. I'd rather him not have the other maneuvers than have him above 20th level. The little guys might be able to white raven the big guy. I've heard that a large amount of little people can make a big difference if they use white raven stuff. Thanks a lot, guys. If they're level 6-7, nothing short of godly intervention is going to get them past a level 20 Master of Nine, especially not when he's got 5-6 level 9 techs to spam.
Timlagor 01-13-07, 03:20 AM	AHhh well if he has a bunch of 7th level followers with White Rave Tactics prepared then he gets to take an extra turn after each of their initiatives ..so yeah that would make a difference... unless the enemy wizard wins initiative.
Talonos 01-13-07, 05:45 PM	This guy's not going to be set against the players when they're level 6-7. He's a long term antagonist that will pop in, kick butt, and pop out. He's more foreshadowing (http://rpgworldcomic.com/d/20001224.html) right now than anything. The way I've got this combat planned, He'll run into the place the characters are trying to guard, order his level seven guys to "Take care of the little guys" because "it's good training" as he runs past the party into the spot they're supposed to be guarding. If they don't let him through, he'll shadow blink or clever positioning his way past, not wanting to spend his maneuvers on the characters (or wait a full round action to get them back) and then be basically gone from the encounter while the players fight the more appropriately leveled people. When the players are about to win (or have won) the MoN will come dashing out, holding in his hands the item they were supposed to be protecting, use a strike of righeous vitality to bring back one of the little level seven people from unconsiousness, and then, faced with the incoming city guards (Which, the players know, are captained by a level 19 fighter-paladin) he'll book it with his one remaining level seven apprentice, leaving the other level seven apprentice for dead. This encounter, I feel, balances foreshadowing (Here's the BBEG) an appropriate combat encounter (His apprentices) a feeling of accomplishment (They killed/took prisioner one of the apprentices) mystery (Why did he want the item? What happens now?) a good lead (Interrogate/speak with dead the fallen apprentice) and reality (There's always somebody more powerful than you) with an encounter that provides little more danger than one would expect at that level. (Because the MoN doesn't want to waste time fighting when he's making good on his escape). So, no, I'm not trying to kill my players. Anyway, here's how his manuevers are working out. I was able to get seven; all but the Iron Heart and Shadow Hand ones. I had to bend the rules a little; it says under master of nine that you add your master of nine levels to determine your total initiator level, so I let him swap out a maneuver every time his master of nine plus his sword sage levels were even, even though I think that's against the rules: 1: Swordsage, Take Shadow Blade Technique, Distracting Ember, Counter Charge, Sudden Leap, Burning Blade, and Sapphire Nightmare Blade. 2: Crusader, take Douse the Flames, Leading the attack, Crusader's Strike, Vanguard's Strike, and Charging Minotaur. 3: Swordsage, Take Rabid Wolf Strike. 4: Swordsage, Take Drain Vitality. 5: Swordsage, Take Flashing Sun, drop Shadow Blade Technique for Clever Positioning. 6: Swordsage, Take Zephyr Dance. 7: Swordsage, Take Insightful Strike, drop Distracting Ember for Feigned Opening. 8: Swordsage, Take Comet Throw. 9: Swordsage, Take Hand of Death, drop Counter Charge for Death from Above. 10: Swordsage, Take Pouncing Charge. 11: Swordsage, Take Disrupting Blow, drop Sudden Leap for Leaping Flame. 12: Swordsage, Take Desert Tempest. 13: Swordsage, Take Scorpion Parry, drop Burning Blade for Moment of Alactiry. 14: Swordsage, Take Shadow Blink. 15: Swordsage, Take Hamstring Attack, drop Sapphire Nightmare Blade for Quicksilver Motion. 16: Master of Nine, take Raging Mongoose and Greater Divine Surge. 17: Master of Nine, Take Fool's Strike, drop Rabid Wolf's Stike for Wyrm's Flame. 18: Master of Nine, Take Inferno Blast and Tornado Throw, spend a feat to get Time Stands Still. 19: Master of Nine, Take Strike of Righteous Vitality, drop Clever Positioning for Mountain Tombstone Strike. 20: Master of Nine, take Feral Death Blow and Warmaster's Charge. That got me seven, though I only have two Stone Dragon Maneuvers (Which is okay, seeing as though Mountain Tombstone Strike has no prerequisites) and Iron heart is a completely lacking (I'll probably use Martial study to get a high level Iron Heart maneuver, so he'll be a master of nine, not a master of eight.) Life is good. Thanks, guys!
NinjaDebugger 01-13-07, 05:55 PM	Anyway, here's how his manuevers are working out. I was able to get seven; all but the Iron Heart and Shadow Hand ones. I had to bend the rules a little; it says under master of nine that you add your master of nine levels to determine your total initiator level, so I let him swap out a maneuver every time his master of nine plus his sword sage levels were even, even though I think that's against the rules: It's a perfectly reasonable house rule, just make it work that way for everybody and you're fine without having to invoke Rule 0, which is always a bonus.