20th level one shot [Archive] - Wizards Community

20th level one shot [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
alecthemad
06-17-05, 11:35 AM I thought this might be the best forum to ask this question even though it does not quite fit the category.

I am running a 20th level one shot. Against my normal rules I have allowed the players to use any WoTC D&D book except psionics. All magic items have to come from the DMG. They get 760,000 gp to buy items and cannot spend more than one quarter on a single item.

Since I only own core books I am a little worried about some of the broken classes. Once character will be a necromancer from unearthed arcana, the player is the powergamer of the group. What do I need to look out for from him?

Another player is doing a monk using the BoED to use vow of poverty and a few of the other vows. What do I have to look out for from him?

The other two players I am sure I can handle as one is a 20th druid, nothing weird and the other likes to game for style more than power.

If you think I should just post in another forum let me know, I just thought this is the place to get advice on potentially broken characters.

The opponent will be largely demons.
Effling
06-17-05, 12:05 PM Well, while Vow of Poverty is kinda cool, it's pretty darn underpowered at level 20. 760,000 gp buys you a lot more stuff than Vow of Poverty gives, plus you save a few feats - though I have a sneaking suspicion that some of the Exalted feats given by Vow of Poverty deal extra extra damage against Evil Outsiders.

Also, do the players know that they're fighting against demons? Because a lot of spells and magical abilties do enhanced damage against evil outsiders in particular.

All magical items having to come from the DMG limit quite a bit though - no Ancestral Relic (Book of Exalted Deeds feat) of Necklace of Natural Attacks (Savage Species) for the monk or Sparring Dummy of the Masters to grant "10-foot steps".

Just some random thoughts there.
Lilt
06-17-05, 12:08 PM I'd say the necromancer won't be much of a problem. No more than any other Wizard would be. Do you know which version of the necromancer he is using? Skeletal Minion, Undead Apeothis, or Enhanced undead? He might go for the True Necromancer PrC and the Corpsecrafter feats from Libris Mortis, which would give himm more of a powerful undead army. I foresee conflict with the group's exalted monk who probably shouldn't associate with someone who undertakes evil acts like creating undead.

The Vow of Poverty should give the monk a fair few abilities but in the end leaves them generally less powerfully equipped at 20th level. What he makes-up from this is a fair few Exalted feats, some of which can make him do a fair bit of damage against evil outsiders (relevant), but others he will just be taking because he has to. There aren't enough useful exalted feats in the game IMHO. VoP is good early in the game, but less useful later-on. I'd bet that if he made the character twice, once with VoP and once without, he'd probably choose the version without Vow of Poverty because of all of the fun stuff he could do with items.

The druid will be fairly powerful, druid all the way is always a good option.

I really don't think it will be that much of a problem. There are only a few things out there which are broken (Hulking Hurler prestige class and the Thought Bottle item to name a coupple). Anything else is just more or less powerful, like how a wizard is generally more poerful than a fighter, and it's far harder to say something's broken at level 20 when the wizard can cast Wish than at earlier levels.
alecthemad
06-17-05, 12:36 PM The necromancer is taking the undead minion. He claims it gets as many hit dice as he has levels. He also took item familiar which is an intelligent sword, he says it gets all sorts of powers. One of the powers is True Ressurection of wielder 1/month.

I am not familiar with any of his necro stuff and I just want to be prepared.
Effling
06-17-05, 12:50 PM Well, the item power thing works so that the item has a purpose, which I'm pretty sure should be drawn from the table on this page (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/magicItemsICA.html). He can't do it though, as it costs 200,000 gp to empower the item with the True Resurrection power, and that in turn is more than one quarter of the starting money (especially if you count the 200,000 gp on top of the price of the other abilities of the sword).
Lilt
06-17-05, 01:47 PM The necromancer is taking the undead minion. He claims it gets as many hit dice as he has levels. He also took item familiar which is an intelligent sword, he says it gets all sorts of powers. One of the powers is True Ressurection of wielder 1/month.

I am not familiar with any of his necro stuff and I just want to be prepared.The undead minion bit is probably one of the weaker options. A medium skeleton with 20 hit-dice would only technically be a CR 8. OK, it gets extra natural armor and strength, but considering that the base creature for a CR8, 20HD, skeleton could be a huge 20HD dragon skeleton (with 31 strength) it's certainly not overpowering. He'd probably be better-off using share-spells to polymorph a familiar into something tough, but this way he has no risk of losing XP which is the only real advantage.

I agree with Effling that he's breaking the "more than 1/4 of starting wealth on a single tiem" rule. To be honest I never use that rule as I have seen characters in play with far more than quarter of their money spent on a single item especially with how items can be upgraded in 3.5. That said, in this case the single upgrade costs more than 1/4 of the character's wealth so it seems completely fair to disallow it.
RogerWilco
06-17-05, 03:13 PM The most broken stuff is:
Ur-Priest PrC
Hulking Hurler PrC
Divine Metamagic feat (even after the erata)

The VoP monk will be o.k.

The Druid will be o.k. depending a lot on what feats and spells he's allowed to select (draconic wildshape, exhaled wildshape?)

The True Necro - I would have no problem with the Tome and Blood version, but I don't know the UA version, as it's the only book I don't allow. It seems to be a different version.

I agree with the other posters that an exhalted monk and a TN can not be in one party.
Caelic
06-17-05, 03:19 PM Things to watch out for:

1. Artificers. An Artificer at level 20 can do damned near everything, all at once--tank with the fighters, out-blast the mages, and in the meantime search the room, pick the lock, and disarm the trap as free actions.

2. Mirror of Opposition. There is no item in existence which can mess up a high-level adventure like this one. You painstakingly develop the ultimate baddie, and--ka-boom. The party whips out the mirror, and all of a sudden your baddie has (literally) met his match--PLUS the attacking PCs.

3. UMD. You want to get it established right now whether or not UMD can be used to emulate caster level in your campaign. If it can, the PCs are going to cut through your demons like butter with Holy Words at caster level 80 or thereabouts.
Borin
06-17-05, 05:16 PM Where is that Mirror of Opposition from? :cool:
CompleteSatori
06-17-05, 05:24 PM I am pretty sure that the Necromancer is using the rules for Item Familiars from Unearthed Arcana, so he is not hurt by the 1/4 item cost limit.

Be afraid of the Druid 20 if he has a shred of skill building characters, Shapechange and assorted Wildshape feats plus Druid spell list will make him pretty awesome.
Lilt
06-17-05, 06:18 PM @CompleteSatori: That's what we were thinking he was using, but even then the rules for adding a special purpose power to an item familiar state that you must spend the amount listed (200k) which is a hefty lump sum.
Lilt
06-17-05, 06:21 PM Where is that Mirror of Opposition from? :cool:DMG :angel: :angelhide
Lilt
06-17-05, 06:49 PM I agree with the other posters that an exhalted monk and a TN can not be in one party.It's not actually True Necromancer they're talking about, it's a variant of the Necromancy-specialised wizard which gets a skeletal minion instead of a familiar. It's overall not much more useful/useless than a normal familiar (less powerful but you don't lose XP if it dies), and if he starts taking Prestige Classes (like any good character optimiser will) then the progression of the skeletal minion will stop (it uses Class level, not character level).

If you're going to declare Divine Metamagic broken then you may-as-well declare Incantatrix and Spelldancer broken too. I merely consider Divine Metamagic and Incantatrix to be Powerful, whilst Spelldancer really can be broken (undead with Horizonwalker (desert) = infinite metamagic on all but necromancy and invocation spells)
gabrion
06-17-05, 07:11 PM If you're going to declare Divine Metamagic broken then you may-as-well declare Incantatrix and Spelldancer broken too. I merely consider Divine Metamagic and Incantatrix to be Powerful, whilst Spelldancer really can be broken (undead with Horizonwalker (desert) = infinite metamagic on all but necromancy and invocation spells)

So Declared!

Edit: To be more on topic, watch the druid. The VoP monk will be outgunned at that level (though fighting evil outsiders will help him a bit). The necromancer won't be bad.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
alecthemad 06-17-05, 11:35 AM	I thought this might be the best forum to ask this question even though it does not quite fit the category. I am running a 20th level one shot. Against my normal rules I have allowed the players to use any WoTC D&D book except psionics. All magic items have to come from the DMG. They get 760,000 gp to buy items and cannot spend more than one quarter on a single item. Since I only own core books I am a little worried about some of the broken classes. Once character will be a necromancer from unearthed arcana, the player is the powergamer of the group. What do I need to look out for from him? Another player is doing a monk using the BoED to use vow of poverty and a few of the other vows. What do I have to look out for from him? The other two players I am sure I can handle as one is a 20th druid, nothing weird and the other likes to game for style more than power. If you think I should just post in another forum let me know, I just thought this is the place to get advice on potentially broken characters. The opponent will be largely demons.
Effling 06-17-05, 12:05 PM	Well, while Vow of Poverty is kinda cool, it's pretty darn underpowered at level 20. 760,000 gp buys you a lot more stuff than Vow of Poverty gives, plus you save a few feats - though I have a sneaking suspicion that some of the Exalted feats given by Vow of Poverty deal extra extra damage against Evil Outsiders. Also, do the players know that they're fighting against demons? Because a lot of spells and magical abilties do enhanced damage against evil outsiders in particular. All magical items having to come from the DMG limit quite a bit though - no Ancestral Relic (Book of Exalted Deeds feat) of Necklace of Natural Attacks (Savage Species) for the monk or Sparring Dummy of the Masters to grant "10-foot steps". Just some random thoughts there.
Lilt 06-17-05, 12:08 PM	I'd say the necromancer won't be much of a problem. No more than any other Wizard would be. Do you know which version of the necromancer he is using? Skeletal Minion, Undead Apeothis, or Enhanced undead? He might go for the True Necromancer PrC and the Corpsecrafter feats from Libris Mortis, which would give himm more of a powerful undead army. I foresee conflict with the group's exalted monk who probably shouldn't associate with someone who undertakes evil acts like creating undead. The Vow of Poverty should give the monk a fair few abilities but in the end leaves them generally less powerfully equipped at 20th level. What he makes-up from this is a fair few Exalted feats, some of which can make him do a fair bit of damage against evil outsiders (relevant), but others he will just be taking because he has to. There aren't enough useful exalted feats in the game IMHO. VoP is good early in the game, but less useful later-on. I'd bet that if he made the character twice, once with VoP and once without, he'd probably choose the version without Vow of Poverty because of all of the fun stuff he could do with items. The druid will be fairly powerful, druid all the way is always a good option. I really don't think it will be that much of a problem. There are only a few things out there which are broken (Hulking Hurler prestige class and the Thought Bottle item to name a coupple). Anything else is just more or less powerful, like how a wizard is generally more poerful than a fighter, and it's far harder to say something's broken at level 20 when the wizard can cast Wish than at earlier levels.
alecthemad 06-17-05, 12:36 PM	The necromancer is taking the undead minion. He claims it gets as many hit dice as he has levels. He also took item familiar which is an intelligent sword, he says it gets all sorts of powers. One of the powers is True Ressurection of wielder 1/month. I am not familiar with any of his necro stuff and I just want to be prepared.
Effling 06-17-05, 12:50 PM	Well, the item power thing works so that the item has a purpose, which I'm pretty sure should be drawn from the table on this page (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/magicItemsICA.html). He can't do it though, as it costs 200,000 gp to empower the item with the True Resurrection power, and that in turn is more than one quarter of the starting money (especially if you count the 200,000 gp on top of the price of the other abilities of the sword).
Lilt 06-17-05, 01:47 PM	The necromancer is taking the undead minion. He claims it gets as many hit dice as he has levels. He also took item familiar which is an intelligent sword, he says it gets all sorts of powers. One of the powers is True Ressurection of wielder 1/month. I am not familiar with any of his necro stuff and I just want to be prepared.The undead minion bit is probably one of the weaker options. A medium skeleton with 20 hit-dice would only technically be a CR 8. OK, it gets extra natural armor and strength, but considering that the base creature for a CR8, 20HD, skeleton could be a huge 20HD dragon skeleton (with 31 strength) it's certainly not overpowering. He'd probably be better-off using share-spells to polymorph a familiar into something tough, but this way he has no risk of losing XP which is the only real advantage. I agree with Effling that he's breaking the "more than 1/4 of starting wealth on a single tiem" rule. To be honest I never use that rule as I have seen characters in play with far more than quarter of their money spent on a single item especially with how items can be upgraded in 3.5. That said, in this case the single upgrade costs more than 1/4 of the character's wealth so it seems completely fair to disallow it.
RogerWilco 06-17-05, 03:13 PM	The most broken stuff is: Ur-Priest PrC Hulking Hurler PrC Divine Metamagic feat (even after the erata) The VoP monk will be o.k. The Druid will be o.k. depending a lot on what feats and spells he's allowed to select (draconic wildshape, exhaled wildshape?) The True Necro - I would have no problem with the Tome and Blood version, but I don't know the UA version, as it's the only book I don't allow. It seems to be a different version. I agree with the other posters that an exhalted monk and a TN can not be in one party.
Caelic 06-17-05, 03:19 PM	Things to watch out for: 1. Artificers. An Artificer at level 20 can do damned near everything, all at once--tank with the fighters, out-blast the mages, and in the meantime search the room, pick the lock, and disarm the trap as free actions. 2. Mirror of Opposition. There is no item in existence which can mess up a high-level adventure like this one. You painstakingly develop the ultimate baddie, and--ka-boom. The party whips out the mirror, and all of a sudden your baddie has (literally) met his match--PLUS the attacking PCs. 3. UMD. You want to get it established right now whether or not UMD can be used to emulate caster level in your campaign. If it can, the PCs are going to cut through your demons like butter with Holy Words at caster level 80 or thereabouts.
Borin 06-17-05, 05:16 PM	Where is that Mirror of Opposition from? :cool:
CompleteSatori 06-17-05, 05:24 PM	I am pretty sure that the Necromancer is using the rules for Item Familiars from Unearthed Arcana, so he is not hurt by the 1/4 item cost limit. Be afraid of the Druid 20 if he has a shred of skill building characters, Shapechange and assorted Wildshape feats plus Druid spell list will make him pretty awesome.
Lilt 06-17-05, 06:18 PM	@CompleteSatori: That's what we were thinking he was using, but even then the rules for adding a special purpose power to an item familiar state that you must spend the amount listed (200k) which is a hefty lump sum.
Lilt 06-17-05, 06:21 PM	Where is that Mirror of Opposition from? :cool:DMG :angel: :angelhide
Lilt 06-17-05, 06:49 PM	I agree with the other posters that an exhalted monk and a TN can not be in one party.It's not actually True Necromancer they're talking about, it's a variant of the Necromancy-specialised wizard which gets a skeletal minion instead of a familiar. It's overall not much more useful/useless than a normal familiar (less powerful but you don't lose XP if it dies), and if he starts taking Prestige Classes (like any good character optimiser will) then the progression of the skeletal minion will stop (it uses Class level, not character level). If you're going to declare Divine Metamagic broken then you may-as-well declare Incantatrix and Spelldancer broken too. I merely consider Divine Metamagic and Incantatrix to be Powerful, whilst Spelldancer really can be broken (undead with Horizonwalker (desert) = infinite metamagic on all but necromancy and invocation spells)
gabrion 06-17-05, 07:11 PM	If you're going to declare Divine Metamagic broken then you may-as-well declare Incantatrix and Spelldancer broken too. I merely consider Divine Metamagic and Incantatrix to be Powerful, whilst Spelldancer really can be broken (undead with Horizonwalker (desert) = infinite metamagic on all but necromancy and invocation spells) So Declared! Edit: To be more on topic, watch the druid. The VoP monk will be outgunned at that level (though fighting evil outsiders will help him a bit). The necromancer won't be bad.