21 (yes) Level Two Weapon Fighter [Archive] - Wizards Community

21 (yes) Level Two Weapon Fighter [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
warpdragon
08-18-04, 04:54 PM I need a build for a 21 level Two Weapon Fighter. I'm completely open to sugestion, however Perfect TWF must be taken level 21. A LA-0 race with DEX +2 or more is needed to qualify for PTWF.

Some info about my gaming group:
--We use 3.5 but 3.0 feats, classes, weapons, etc. can be used if translated into 3.5
--Monks can use FoB and TWF
--We use a high Point Buy, exact number under revision by DM
Blade2718
08-18-04, 05:04 PM No point in using Ambidexterity if your DM is abiding by 3.5 rules for Two-Weapon Fighting; Ambidexterity is rolled into that feat.
warpdragon
08-18-04, 10:07 PM Ok. I missed that, but then I'd asssume its no longer a prerequisite for PTWF. Right?
Blade2718
08-19-04, 12:49 AM Right.

What kind of TWF'er are you? Twin weapons or sword + shield bash? If you want twin weapons, go for Two Weapon Defense; otherwise, shoot for Improved Shield Bash.
warpdragon
08-19-04, 03:06 AM Just standard two weapons. I'm looking more of specific PrCs, advice on fighter (faster) vs. monk (flurry) vs. ranger (free), best weapons...

For weapons I was thinking 2 rapiers with Finesse to abuse the high Dex, but they aren't light.
For race I was thinking Half Elf for the Dex bonus without the Con penalty of regular Elves.

Do you think that I could convince my DM to give me PTWF free with a ranger at level 21 if I chose two weapon style? That would open many new posibilities. Dwarven ranger with 2 dwarven waraxes? Heavy and light spiked metal shields might be fun too.

I've heard about the Dervish PrC but I dont know much about it.

Overall, I have a few ideas but I am here because I do not know what to do.
ksbsnowowl
08-19-04, 03:44 AM There is another option instead of taking Perfect TWF; but I'm not sure it would be very optimal.

If you were to invest in ten levels of Tempest (MotW), you get Superior TWF (which is the same as Perfect TWF; it grants a fourth off-hand attack), and you'd also get Absolute Ambidexterity, which negates the -2 penalty to all attacks due to fighting with two weapons. Unfortunately, other than those two abilities, and granting free Improved and Greater TWF, the class doesn't give you much of anything. It would save you your epic feat, however.

(Yes, I realize I'll get blasted for suggesting Tempest, but hey, I figure he's got a right to know all his options)

It could be interesting to look into getting the Snow Tiger Berserker Lodge feat from Unapproachable East. That feat would at least allow you some use and utility of the Tempest prereq's.

Here's a basic rundown of what could be possible:
Human
Lvl Class Feats Class Features
1 Ranger EWP: Tiger Claw, Power Attack, Track Favored Enemy
2 Barbarian Rage 1/day
3 Ranger TWF*, Snow Tiger Berserker
4 Barbarian Uncanny Dodge
5 Barbarian Trap Sense +1
6 Fighter WF: Tiger Claw, Dodge Bonus Feat
7 Fighter Mobility BF
8 Fighter
9 Fighter Spring Attack, Imp. Crit: Tiger Claw BF
10 Tempest Imp. TWF*
11 Tempest
12 Tempest ?Cleave?
13 Tempest
14 Tempest Greater TWF*
15 Tempest ?Weap. Spec.?
16 Tempest
17 Tempest Absolute Ambidex
18 Tempest ?Great Stag Berserker?
19 Tempest Superior TWF
20 ?Barbarian? Rage 2/day

Base Saves at 20th: Fort +18 Ref +8 Will +5Tempest has a few other class features, but they're not really worth noting.

The Tiger Claw is an Exotic Weapon found in Silver Marches. It is a light weapon that deals 1d6 18-20/x2 damage.

At 20th level you'd have a TWF full attack consisting of 8 attacks, and you wouldn't take penalties for fighting with two weapons. You could make a full attack after a charge; you're tactics would basically include using Spring Attack and charging foes, inflicting numerous attacks on them each round.

You could choose the Weapon Finesse route, but you wouldn't have to have a huge dex to use any of your TWF feats, so you could be content with a Dex of 13, and focus on strength to power your TWF attacks and damage. Of course, AC could become a problem, but you could shore that up with magic at the levels you'd be playing.
ksbsnowowl
08-19-04, 03:50 AM Originally posted by warpdragon
For race I was thinking Half Elf for the Dex bonus without the Con penalty of regular Elves. Um...unless your DM house-ruled it, Half-elves have no racial adjustments to their ability scores.

Also thought to add that the 3.5 Exotic Weapon Master from CW could work well in a build similar to the one I listed above. The Exotic Flurry would add to your number of attacks each round.

Dervish could be good, but I don't own CW, so I'm not sure of its offerings.
allenchan
08-19-04, 03:56 AM ksbsnowowl: Wont the build you posted suffer from multiclass xp penalties?
dirkformica
08-19-04, 07:21 AM Wouldn't the Dervish from Complete Warrior be perfect for this kind of character? With 10 Dervish levels that's a lot of attacks to double up on with all those extra off-hands strikes. Also, I believe it allows you to treat the Scimitar as a light weapon. Which would mean only having to focus on one weapon for other feats. It would also be ripe for keen enchantments or Improved Critical with the threat range, which again works quite nicely with all the extra attacks.

Oh, and Allenchan, I believe from all the first level feats that ksbsnowowl's build was a human, so there shouldn't be exp penalties from what he listed.
Piraatje
08-19-04, 07:44 AM Definitely go dervish, that class is awesome. Also, check out the CW exotic weapon master to gain access to flurry.
Zappa
08-19-04, 10:01 AM How about Fighter4/Monk3/Shou Disciple3/Dervish10?

Go with two scimitars. Shou Disciple3 will let you flurry with any light weapon. Dervish lets you treat a scimitar as a light weapon. In total, your movement rate will be +25 ft.

BAB of 19, so your flurry attack is 17/17/12/12/7/7/2/2/-3
Base saves are 17/14/8.
Weapon Specialization would be nice. The low Will Save might be a problem, but at least you'll have Still Mind.
jdm5000
08-19-04, 10:09 AM Originally posted by Zappa
How about Fighter4/Monk3/Shou Disciple3/Dervish10?

Which book is the Shou Disciple in?
Zappa
08-19-04, 10:12 AM Unapproachable East
Zappa
08-19-04, 10:35 AM Some weapon abilities that you should definitely add are Speed and the elemental damaging abilities.

With some rough numbers, your full attack should be something like this: 32/32/32/27/27/22/22/17/17/12. The stuff that you'll be fighting at this level is TOUGH, so you'll most likely be whiffing on allot of these attacks.

The Dervish Dance ability is might sweet. In addition, you'll be able to double your attacks in a round once per day, which would be 20 attacks.
42up
08-19-04, 11:02 AM yeah its called dervish....aka what tempest should always have been.

Anyway, it lets you finesse scimitars, gives you spring attack for free, dervish dance is awesome, and gives you bonus AC and speed, what is there to not like about the class?

I have seen it done 2 ways to go into dervish-
Rogue3/Swashbuckler3/Dervish X

or

Fighter2/Rogue3/Dervish X

(I could be wrong on the second if dervish requires BAB +5)

Anyway, feats are fairly obvious-
Two Weapon Fighting
Imp Two Weapon Fighting
Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Two Weapon Defense
Weapon Finesse
Dodge
Mobility

Yeah, and just go human with an 18 dex and buy the stat books.
ksbsnowowl
08-19-04, 11:28 AM Originally posted by allenchan
ksbsnowowl: Wont the build you posted suffer from multiclass xp penalties? Only at twentieth level if you were to add a fourth level of Barbarian. It was exceptionally late, and I just stuck it on the end because I didn't know what else to put there.
Whakapapa
08-19-04, 12:22 PM Try a simple build like:
11 monk/10 dervish.

This will give you alot of attacks:

+18/+18/+18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3/

with haste:

+18/+18/+18/+18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3/

With dervish 10th level ability:

+18/+18/+18/+18/+18/+18/+18/+18/+18/+13/+13/+13/+13/+8/+8/+8/+8/+3/+3/

This doesn't include any bonus from anything ;) Just pure BAB
Whakapapa
08-19-04, 12:24 PM Originally posted by Zappa
The Dervish Dance ability is might sweet. In addition, you'll be able to double your attacks in a round once per day, which would be 20 attacks.

remember that speed weapons or haste effects doesn't get doubled up :)
warpdragon
08-19-04, 03:27 PM Ok, so Dervish it is. I'm assuming it is a 10 level PrC so it could be extended to 11 for the epic level. Are there any mathematically calculated abilities that would benifit from this? Would posting the prerequisites be against the CoC?

What are the Swashbuckler levels for? And on a similar note if I go Ftr3/Sw3/Der10 or Ftr3/Rog2/Der10 what should I take for the remaining 5/6 levels? Monk? Could Tempest be taken or is it that bad?

32/32/32/27/27/22/22/17/17/12
How do you get 32 BAB in 21 levels?
Zappa
08-19-04, 03:32 PM the +32.... was to give you an example of where your attacks will be after all modifiers.

Swashbuckler is to give Int. to Damage, most likely.
MoogleEmpMog
08-19-04, 03:43 PM Monk6/Shou Disciple5/Dervish10

This lets you use a greater flurry of blows, with a scimitar, while two-weapon fighting, and making a dervish dance. Otherwise you can't flurry with a scimitar, the dervish's weapon of choice. Best of all, Shou Disciple gives 1/1 BAB and bonus feats, including Weapon Specialization, which is nice for a TWF character.

(I assume Shou 4 counts as Fighter 4 for Weapon Spec's requirements, but that's not explicitly stated)
SuperThread
08-19-04, 05:19 PM Originally posted by MoogleEmpMog
Monk6/Shou Disciple5/Dervish10

It's a good build, but it would probably be more powerful if you dropped four levels of Dervish and added three of Swashbuckler and one of Shiba Protector (oh, the cheese! But it's really a must have in a TWF build if allowed).

Perhaps even more enticing are templates that add arms- Insectile and Arachnoid together would be very good because, with a combined LA of +3, they still allow for PTWF. That would only leave three levels for Dervish, however, which would be better replaced with levels of Exotic Weapon Master.

Insectile Arachnoid Human Monk 6/Shou Disciple 5/Swashbuckler 3/Shiba Protector 1/Exotic Weapon Master 3 isn't a bad build at all.
Blade2718
08-19-04, 06:21 PM Whatever happened to the Fang of Lloth? People used to love that PrC for the extra arms...
Zappa
08-19-04, 08:20 PM Warpdragon - do you want to be a total freak with multiple arms?
Balthanon
08-19-04, 09:01 PM Originally posted by SuperThread
It's a good build, but it would probably be more powerful if you dropped four levels of Dervish and added three of Swashbuckler and one of Shiba Protector (oh, the cheese! But it's really a must have in a TWF build if allowed).

Perhaps even more enticing are templates that add arms- Insectile and Arachnoid together would be very good because, with a combined LA of +3, they still allow for PTWF.

Since this build is going directly into epic levels, having an epic ready class is a powerful incentive. Adding two stats to damage is nice, but it really depends on the kind of stats available for distribution.

As a rough guess, Epic Dervish should go something like this, by the way:

Epic Dervish
--------------------------
Lvl AC Speed Special
--------------------------
11 +3 +20 Dervish Dance 6/day
12 +3
13 +4 Dervish Dance 7/day
14 +4 +25 Bonus Epic Feat
15 +4 Dervish Dance 8/day
16 +4
17 +5 +30 Dervish Dance 9/day
18 +5 Bonus Epic Feat
19 +5 Dervish Dance 10/day
20 +5 +35 Thousand Cuts 2/day (maybe)

Dervish Dance: +1 use per day every 2 levels
Fast Movement: +5 ft every 3 levels
AC Bonus: +1 every 4 levels
Bonus Epic Feat: 1 every 4 levels (possibly even every 5.)
Thousand Cuts: +1 use per day every 10 levels (no
actual precedent, but feasible.)

Also, the Insectile template explicitly states that the arms it grants are unable to attack and the arachnoid template doesn't have an official level adjustment. That could make the combination difficult to justify to a DM, especially at a +3 LA.
warpdragon
08-19-04, 10:43 PM Multiarmed Freak- yes
Illegal Multiarmed Freak- no

The point buy will be 40 so I can go 18 14 14 12 12 12 plus 5

I still need a race for this, however I am unsure of how LA efects Epicness.
SuperThread
08-19-04, 10:57 PM Also, the Insectile template explicitly states that the arms it grants are unable to attack

As I recall, it says something along the lines of, "Although the template grants the base creature two additional pairs of arms, it does not grant extra attacks." (If that's entirely wrong, you may ignore the rest of this paragraph.) I take that to mean that it adds no natural attacks- after all, if you add an additional arm to a human, the human does not gain any extra attacks. Anyway, it's debatable (unless it's worded differently, in which case I'm probably looking quite stuped at the moment). If the arms can't make extra attacks try to work in Thri-Kreen or, as was mentioned earlier, Fang of Lolth (if you're willing to be evil-ish at best).

And, yes, an epic progression is nice, but it isn't anything more than that for fighter-types (unlike spellcasters, for which a 1/3 progression is no less than essential). Adding two stats to attack and two-and-a-half to damage is quite a bit nicer.

EDIT: I still need a race for this, however I am unsure of how LA efects Epicness

The *only* way that it affects it is in your character's eligibility for feats with the [Epic] descriptor. For this reason, you want your LA to be a multiple of three so that your final feat can be PTWF.

Also, does your DM allow custom items? If he does, the first thing you should do is grab an item of continuous Divine Favor (144k gp, cheaper if you can use Persistant Spell) and (possibly) Divine Power (IIRC 224k gp).

Finally, an alternative to the PTWF route is the (admittedly very expensive) Two-Headed Template, which not only allows full attacks from each weapon but also grants full strength bonus to damage for each weapon and eliminates the -2 penalty. A Two-Headed Thri-Kreen is a viable option.
Zappa
08-20-04, 10:02 AM What about a Marilith dervish? Can it be done in 21 levels?
Balthanon
08-20-04, 11:12 AM Originally posted by Zappa
What about a Marilith dervish? Can it be done in 21 levels?

No, Marilith's without class levels would probably be somewhere between ECL 25 and ECL 30.
Mikal
08-20-04, 11:24 AM I think a good combination with dervish would be the invisible blade. you get extra feints with sneak attack damage, as well as some bonuses to defense and the like. for me the easiest way to qualify for this would be

fighter 2/swashbuckler 3/invis blade 5/dervish 10
warpdragon
08-20-04, 01:00 PM How expensive is the 2 headed template? And how many arms do the other templates grant? And what is the Fang of Lolth?
warpdragon
08-21-04, 12:15 AM :bump:
42up
08-21-04, 10:44 AM why oh why would you go fighter 3 over rogue 3? It makes no sense. Fighter 3 gets you a D10 HD and that is it. Rogue 3 gets a D6 HD, another +1 BAB (just like the fighter), sneak attack +1d6 and a 8+int skills.

The only reason to take fighter 3 is if you plan to go fighter 4...
And swashbuckler 3 gets you INT to damage...something very strong for a rogue.

Well with a 40 point buy, you can get pretty crazy.
Anyway, I would do something like this if you want to go the swashbuckler route-
Str-10
Con-14
Dex-18
Wis-12
Int-16
Cha-10

For this to work, you need to be a human, which is just fine.

For feats-
Weapon Finesse
Dodge
Mobility
Combat Expertise
Two-Weapon Fighting
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
Weapon Focus:Scimitar
Improved Critical:Scimitar
Two-Weapon Defense (if you can work it in)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
warpdragon 08-18-04, 04:54 PM	I need a build for a 21 level Two Weapon Fighter. I'm completely open to sugestion, however Perfect TWF must be taken level 21. A LA-0 race with DEX +2 or more is needed to qualify for PTWF. Some info about my gaming group: --We use 3.5 but 3.0 feats, classes, weapons, etc. can be used if translated into 3.5 --Monks can use FoB and TWF --We use a high Point Buy, exact number under revision by DM
Blade2718 08-18-04, 05:04 PM	No point in using Ambidexterity if your DM is abiding by 3.5 rules for Two-Weapon Fighting; Ambidexterity is rolled into that feat.
warpdragon 08-18-04, 10:07 PM	Ok. I missed that, but then I'd asssume its no longer a prerequisite for PTWF. Right?
Blade2718 08-19-04, 12:49 AM	Right. What kind of TWF'er are you? Twin weapons or sword + shield bash? If you want twin weapons, go for Two Weapon Defense; otherwise, shoot for Improved Shield Bash.
warpdragon 08-19-04, 03:06 AM	Just standard two weapons. I'm looking more of specific PrCs, advice on fighter (faster) vs. monk (flurry) vs. ranger (free), best weapons... For weapons I was thinking 2 rapiers with Finesse to abuse the high Dex, but they aren't light. For race I was thinking Half Elf for the Dex bonus without the Con penalty of regular Elves. Do you think that I could convince my DM to give me PTWF free with a ranger at level 21 if I chose two weapon style? That would open many new posibilities. Dwarven ranger with 2 dwarven waraxes? Heavy and light spiked metal shields might be fun too. I've heard about the Dervish PrC but I dont know much about it. Overall, I have a few ideas but I am here because I do not know what to do.
ksbsnowowl 08-19-04, 03:44 AM	There is another option instead of taking Perfect TWF; but I'm not sure it would be very optimal. If you were to invest in ten levels of Tempest (MotW), you get Superior TWF (which is the same as Perfect TWF; it grants a fourth off-hand attack), and you'd also get Absolute Ambidexterity, which negates the -2 penalty to all attacks due to fighting with two weapons. Unfortunately, other than those two abilities, and granting free Improved and Greater TWF, the class doesn't give you much of anything. It would save you your epic feat, however. (Yes, I realize I'll get blasted for suggesting Tempest, but hey, I figure he's got a right to know all his options) It could be interesting to look into getting the Snow Tiger Berserker Lodge feat from Unapproachable East. That feat would at least allow you some use and utility of the Tempest prereq's. Here's a basic rundown of what could be possible: Human Lvl Class Feats Class Features 1 Ranger EWP: Tiger Claw, Power Attack, Track Favored Enemy 2 Barbarian Rage 1/day 3 Ranger TWF, Snow Tiger Berserker 4 Barbarian Uncanny Dodge 5 Barbarian Trap Sense +1 6 Fighter WF: Tiger Claw, Dodge Bonus Feat 7 Fighter Mobility BF 8 Fighter 9 Fighter Spring Attack, Imp. Crit: Tiger Claw BF 10 Tempest Imp. TWF 11 Tempest 12 Tempest ?Cleave? 13 Tempest 14 Tempest Greater TWF* 15 Tempest ?Weap. Spec.? 16 Tempest 17 Tempest Absolute Ambidex 18 Tempest ?Great Stag Berserker? 19 Tempest Superior TWF 20 ?Barbarian? Rage 2/day Base Saves at 20th: Fort +18 Ref +8 Will +5Tempest has a few other class features, but they're not really worth noting. The Tiger Claw is an Exotic Weapon found in Silver Marches. It is a light weapon that deals 1d6 18-20/x2 damage. At 20th level you'd have a TWF full attack consisting of 8 attacks, and you wouldn't take penalties for fighting with two weapons. You could make a full attack after a charge; you're tactics would basically include using Spring Attack and charging foes, inflicting numerous attacks on them each round. You could choose the Weapon Finesse route, but you wouldn't have to have a huge dex to use any of your TWF feats, so you could be content with a Dex of 13, and focus on strength to power your TWF attacks and damage. Of course, AC could become a problem, but you could shore that up with magic at the levels you'd be playing.
ksbsnowowl 08-19-04, 03:50 AM	Originally posted by warpdragon For race I was thinking Half Elf for the Dex bonus without the Con penalty of regular Elves. Um...unless your DM house-ruled it, Half-elves have no racial adjustments to their ability scores. Also thought to add that the 3.5 Exotic Weapon Master from CW could work well in a build similar to the one I listed above. The Exotic Flurry would add to your number of attacks each round. Dervish could be good, but I don't own CW, so I'm not sure of its offerings.
allenchan 08-19-04, 03:56 AM	ksbsnowowl: Wont the build you posted suffer from multiclass xp penalties?
dirkformica 08-19-04, 07:21 AM	Wouldn't the Dervish from Complete Warrior be perfect for this kind of character? With 10 Dervish levels that's a lot of attacks to double up on with all those extra off-hands strikes. Also, I believe it allows you to treat the Scimitar as a light weapon. Which would mean only having to focus on one weapon for other feats. It would also be ripe for keen enchantments or Improved Critical with the threat range, which again works quite nicely with all the extra attacks. Oh, and Allenchan, I believe from all the first level feats that ksbsnowowl's build was a human, so there shouldn't be exp penalties from what he listed.
Piraatje 08-19-04, 07:44 AM	Definitely go dervish, that class is awesome. Also, check out the CW exotic weapon master to gain access to flurry.
Zappa 08-19-04, 10:01 AM	How about Fighter4/Monk3/Shou Disciple3/Dervish10? Go with two scimitars. Shou Disciple3 will let you flurry with any light weapon. Dervish lets you treat a scimitar as a light weapon. In total, your movement rate will be +25 ft. BAB of 19, so your flurry attack is 17/17/12/12/7/7/2/2/-3 Base saves are 17/14/8. Weapon Specialization would be nice. The low Will Save might be a problem, but at least you'll have Still Mind.
jdm5000 08-19-04, 10:09 AM	Originally posted by Zappa How about Fighter4/Monk3/Shou Disciple3/Dervish10? Which book is the Shou Disciple in?
Zappa 08-19-04, 10:12 AM	Unapproachable East
Zappa 08-19-04, 10:35 AM	Some weapon abilities that you should definitely add are Speed and the elemental damaging abilities. With some rough numbers, your full attack should be something like this: 32/32/32/27/27/22/22/17/17/12. The stuff that you'll be fighting at this level is TOUGH, so you'll most likely be whiffing on allot of these attacks. The Dervish Dance ability is might sweet. In addition, you'll be able to double your attacks in a round once per day, which would be 20 attacks.
42up 08-19-04, 11:02 AM	yeah its called dervish....aka what tempest should always have been. Anyway, it lets you finesse scimitars, gives you spring attack for free, dervish dance is awesome, and gives you bonus AC and speed, what is there to not like about the class? I have seen it done 2 ways to go into dervish- Rogue3/Swashbuckler3/Dervish X or Fighter2/Rogue3/Dervish X (I could be wrong on the second if dervish requires BAB +5) Anyway, feats are fairly obvious- Two Weapon Fighting Imp Two Weapon Fighting Greater Two Weapon Fighting Two Weapon Defense Weapon Finesse Dodge Mobility Yeah, and just go human with an 18 dex and buy the stat books.
ksbsnowowl 08-19-04, 11:28 AM	Originally posted by allenchan ksbsnowowl: Wont the build you posted suffer from multiclass xp penalties? Only at twentieth level if you were to add a fourth level of Barbarian. It was exceptionally late, and I just stuck it on the end because I didn't know what else to put there.
Whakapapa 08-19-04, 12:22 PM	Try a simple build like: 11 monk/10 dervish. This will give you alot of attacks: +18/+18/+18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3/ with haste: +18/+18/+18/+18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3/ With dervish 10th level ability: +18/+18/+18/+18/+18/+18/+18/+18/+18/+13/+13/+13/+13/+8/+8/+8/+8/+3/+3/ This doesn't include any bonus from anything ;) Just pure BAB
Whakapapa 08-19-04, 12:24 PM	Originally posted by Zappa The Dervish Dance ability is might sweet. In addition, you'll be able to double your attacks in a round once per day, which would be 20 attacks. remember that speed weapons or haste effects doesn't get doubled up :)
warpdragon 08-19-04, 03:27 PM	Ok, so Dervish it is. I'm assuming it is a 10 level PrC so it could be extended to 11 for the epic level. Are there any mathematically calculated abilities that would benifit from this? Would posting the prerequisites be against the CoC? What are the Swashbuckler levels for? And on a similar note if I go Ftr3/Sw3/Der10 or Ftr3/Rog2/Der10 what should I take for the remaining 5/6 levels? Monk? Could Tempest be taken or is it that bad? 32/32/32/27/27/22/22/17/17/12 How do you get 32 BAB in 21 levels?
Zappa 08-19-04, 03:32 PM	the +32.... was to give you an example of where your attacks will be after all modifiers. Swashbuckler is to give Int. to Damage, most likely.
MoogleEmpMog 08-19-04, 03:43 PM	Monk6/Shou Disciple5/Dervish10 This lets you use a greater flurry of blows, with a scimitar, while two-weapon fighting, and making a dervish dance. Otherwise you can't flurry with a scimitar, the dervish's weapon of choice. Best of all, Shou Disciple gives 1/1 BAB and bonus feats, including Weapon Specialization, which is nice for a TWF character. (I assume Shou 4 counts as Fighter 4 for Weapon Spec's requirements, but that's not explicitly stated)
SuperThread 08-19-04, 05:19 PM	Originally posted by MoogleEmpMog Monk6/Shou Disciple5/Dervish10 It's a good build, but it would probably be more powerful if you dropped four levels of Dervish and added three of Swashbuckler and one of Shiba Protector (oh, the cheese! But it's really a must have in a TWF build if allowed). Perhaps even more enticing are templates that add arms- Insectile and Arachnoid together would be very good because, with a combined LA of +3, they still allow for PTWF. That would only leave three levels for Dervish, however, which would be better replaced with levels of Exotic Weapon Master. Insectile Arachnoid Human Monk 6/Shou Disciple 5/Swashbuckler 3/Shiba Protector 1/Exotic Weapon Master 3 isn't a bad build at all.
Blade2718 08-19-04, 06:21 PM	Whatever happened to the Fang of Lloth? People used to love that PrC for the extra arms...
Zappa 08-19-04, 08:20 PM	Warpdragon - do you want to be a total freak with multiple arms?
Balthanon 08-19-04, 09:01 PM	Originally posted by SuperThread It's a good build, but it would probably be more powerful if you dropped four levels of Dervish and added three of Swashbuckler and one of Shiba Protector (oh, the cheese! But it's really a must have in a TWF build if allowed). Perhaps even more enticing are templates that add arms- Insectile and Arachnoid together would be very good because, with a combined LA of +3, they still allow for PTWF. Since this build is going directly into epic levels, having an epic ready class is a powerful incentive. Adding two stats to damage is nice, but it really depends on the kind of stats available for distribution. As a rough guess, Epic Dervish should go something like this, by the way: Epic Dervish -------------------------- Lvl AC Speed Special -------------------------- 11 +3 +20 Dervish Dance 6/day 12 +3 13 +4 Dervish Dance 7/day 14 +4 +25 Bonus Epic Feat 15 +4 Dervish Dance 8/day 16 +4 17 +5 +30 Dervish Dance 9/day 18 +5 Bonus Epic Feat 19 +5 Dervish Dance 10/day 20 +5 +35 Thousand Cuts 2/day (maybe) Dervish Dance: +1 use per day every 2 levels Fast Movement: +5 ft every 3 levels AC Bonus: +1 every 4 levels Bonus Epic Feat: 1 every 4 levels (possibly even every 5.) Thousand Cuts: +1 use per day every 10 levels (no actual precedent, but feasible.) Also, the Insectile template explicitly states that the arms it grants are unable to attack and the arachnoid template doesn't have an official level adjustment. That could make the combination difficult to justify to a DM, especially at a +3 LA.
warpdragon 08-19-04, 10:43 PM	Multiarmed Freak- yes Illegal Multiarmed Freak- no The point buy will be 40 so I can go 18 14 14 12 12 12 plus 5 I still need a race for this, however I am unsure of how LA efects Epicness.
SuperThread 08-19-04, 10:57 PM	Also, the Insectile template explicitly states that the arms it grants are unable to attack As I recall, it says something along the lines of, "Although the template grants the base creature two additional pairs of arms, it does not grant extra attacks." (If that's entirely wrong, you may ignore the rest of this paragraph.) I take that to mean that it adds no natural attacks- after all, if you add an additional arm to a human, the human does not gain any extra attacks. Anyway, it's debatable (unless it's worded differently, in which case I'm probably looking quite stuped at the moment). If the arms can't make extra attacks try to work in Thri-Kreen or, as was mentioned earlier, Fang of Lolth (if you're willing to be evil-ish at best). And, yes, an epic progression is nice, but it isn't anything more than that for fighter-types (unlike spellcasters, for which a 1/3 progression is no less than essential). Adding two stats to attack and two-and-a-half to damage is quite a bit nicer. EDIT: I still need a race for this, however I am unsure of how LA efects Epicness The only way that it affects it is in your character's eligibility for feats with the [Epic] descriptor. For this reason, you want your LA to be a multiple of three so that your final feat can be PTWF. Also, does your DM allow custom items? If he does, the first thing you should do is grab an item of continuous Divine Favor (144k gp, cheaper if you can use Persistant Spell) and (possibly) Divine Power (IIRC 224k gp). Finally, an alternative to the PTWF route is the (admittedly very expensive) Two-Headed Template, which not only allows full attacks from each weapon but also grants full strength bonus to damage for each weapon and eliminates the -2 penalty. A Two-Headed Thri-Kreen is a viable option.
Zappa 08-20-04, 10:02 AM	What about a Marilith dervish? Can it be done in 21 levels?
Balthanon 08-20-04, 11:12 AM	Originally posted by Zappa What about a Marilith dervish? Can it be done in 21 levels? No, Marilith's without class levels would probably be somewhere between ECL 25 and ECL 30.
Mikal 08-20-04, 11:24 AM	I think a good combination with dervish would be the invisible blade. you get extra feints with sneak attack damage, as well as some bonuses to defense and the like. for me the easiest way to qualify for this would be fighter 2/swashbuckler 3/invis blade 5/dervish 10
warpdragon 08-20-04, 01:00 PM	How expensive is the 2 headed template? And how many arms do the other templates grant? And what is the Fang of Lolth?
warpdragon 08-21-04, 12:15 AM	:bump:
42up 08-21-04, 10:44 AM	why oh why would you go fighter 3 over rogue 3? It makes no sense. Fighter 3 gets you a D10 HD and that is it. Rogue 3 gets a D6 HD, another +1 BAB (just like the fighter), sneak attack +1d6 and a 8+int skills. The only reason to take fighter 3 is if you plan to go fighter 4... And swashbuckler 3 gets you INT to damage...something very strong for a rogue. Well with a 40 point buy, you can get pretty crazy. Anyway, I would do something like this if you want to go the swashbuckler route- Str-10 Con-14 Dex-18 Wis-12 Int-16 Cha-10 For this to work, you need to be a human, which is just fine. For feats- Weapon Finesse Dodge Mobility Combat Expertise Two-Weapon Fighting Improved Two-Weapon Fighting Greater Two-Weapon Fighting Weapon Focus:Scimitar Improved Critical:Scimitar Two-Weapon Defense (if you can work it in)