Post/Author/DateTime	Post
NHdjinn 10-15-03, 05:05 PM	Help me out guys...whats the best I can do with a paladin with a 25 pt buy? I keep getting confused and distracted by stuff. Need help....PLEASE? :bow:
eudas 10-15-03, 05:13 PM	stat deficiencies can be overcome by magical items; skill deficiencies are harder to overcome. just make sure you have the stats to qualify for the feats that you want, make sure you have a good int to get the skills you need, and let magical eq take up the slack for middling stats. basically, if ya can't have stats, focus on class abilities, feats, skills, to take the importance out of stats. focus on what you *CAN* get. look at a level 3 rogue with a 10 in every stat -- he still gets 2d6 sneak attack damage, doesn't he? and he still hits after drinking a true strike potion, right? the stats aren't the most important thing. sure, with better stats you can do things *more* and *better*.. but the most important thing is being able to do them *at all*. what's the difference between a paladin with 18str and one with 10str? a couple of points of damage. eudas p.s. 25 point buy can get you: str 13 (qualify for power attack/cleave) dex 10 (no ac penalty) con 14 (good hp) int 10 (no skill penalty) wis 14 (qualify for lev 4 pal spells) cha 12 (small bonus to diplomacy/turn/saves) correct me if i'm wrong on above. you can switch #'s around, but *shrug*.. you didn't really tell us what you wanted, so it's hard to build it right. eudas
DreamWeaver 10-15-03, 05:24 PM	A few things: 1) How far are you thinking of going with Paladin class lvls? Close to 10 or more, or are you just going to dabble for 4-5 lvls? 2) I assume with the 25 point buy that it is as per the rules in the DMG (i.e.: all start at 8, 9-14 = 1 point per increase, 15-16 = 2 ppi, 17-18 = 3 ppi)? 3) How much interest do you have in skills and skill points? With a paladin created off of a 25 pt buy system, I'm guessing you prefer to focus on the physical attributes and maybe charisma, leaving your wisdom score to advance with character lvl (only need a 14 max to cast the 4th lvl paladin spells), and leaving your int at 8 spending the few points you get spread around in only "absolutely necessary" skills. I'd do something like this: Str: 16 Dex: 11 Con: 12 Int: 8 Wis: 10 Cha: 14 Reasoning: Your a paladin and fighting bad guys in melee is your thing. As such, high strength and a few bonus hps from an ok Con score will help you out. In addition, as a paladin, you'll most likely want to wear the best armor you can get (which would normally mean full plate). Those kinds of armors generally have a low bonus from Dex to AC so the most you'll probably need is a +1 modifier from Dex (can be gotten with a lvl based ability bump at 4, 8, 12, 16, or 20). As a paladin, you will eventually obtain paladin spells, but not for quite a few lvls. To that end, you won't need the higher Wis score until closer to that time period. My suggestion would be to take the first ability increase (at lvl 4) in Wisdom so that when you reach 1st lvl paladin spells, you'll be able to cast them (should be either that lvl or the next where you get 1st lvl spells and more than 0 per day on the table). Remember, for the most part, the stereotypical paladin will not be a "big" spell caster so this shouldn't cause problems. You'll note, of course, that I raised your Charisma to something that had a +2 modifier. Many reasons for that. There are spells that and feats that are based off of Cha, and the amount of healing you can do is based off of: paladin lvl * Cha modifier (if positive). In addition, your turn checks against undead that you determine you don't want to slay in melee yourself will, of course, be affected by your Cha mod. Anyways, these are just my suggestions based on stats, but if you want something different, please give the rest of us an idea as to what kind of paladin you want to play. Various kinds include: Melee Paladin, Ranged Paladin, Spell/Buff Paladin, Mounted Paladin, etc...
eudas 10-15-03, 05:28 PM	use his stats. they're better than mine. :) my point that, if you can't overpowere 'em with stats, you should fall back and focus on your skills/feats/equipment still stands though. :) eudas
NHdjinn 10-15-03, 05:52 PM	Well I just may run this up to the max in the campaign. Lvl 20 or so. I generally dont mess with cross classing pally's, spellcasters, or monks...unless its a prc that wont hurt. I like to just crack heads with a pally, although some spells are very handy(dispel,holy sword, divine) Sp bfing able to cast is generally needed by me. So melee, with the minimum stats needed to cast all pally spells. Being able to do mounted combat is needed also....I know, I am a pest. I thought mounted would be handled with Feats and Skill points though. I also have quite a few level sto get my feats and skills up before I get a mount.... Sorry for the lack of info from the start NHdjinn
Eagle Prince 10-15-03, 05:54 PM	I wouldn't put any attribute over 14 with point-buy, esp. the "standard" 25 point buy. Even moreso if you're planning on boosting ALL of your attributes magically. If you were going to play a really stupid, really strong half-orc barbarian then sure, go stick all your points into a 18 Strength. Even then, its kinda dumb to do, but eh.
Funny Slaughter 10-15-03, 06:15 PM	depending on the concept there can be one or two dump-stats, but in my opinion thats not a good idea in most cases. a primary caster needs an attribute above 14 and is less relaiant on another in most cases, a wizard maybe disses str and cha to favor int. for a standard melee-ist i would put a 10 maybe into wis, less in cha, a 12 in int and the rest into the three physical stats. a paladin can start with a wis 10 or 11, when he starts to cast spells he can easily have an level-increase or an item. cha is one of the most important, especially if factoring divine might into account. con is always good. str, why not. dex can be quite low, walking in fullplate anyhow. of course i second eagle prince and say: unless you are a primary caster or focussed on one very special thing you should not take a start above 14. and for the hardcore-minmaxers: uneven starting-stats may be suboptimal in the beginning, but since you can buy tomes +5 maximum, an uneven number, you are good off later on when the gold starts to rain. gs Funny
Zaruthustran 10-15-03, 08:51 PM	As a mounted melee paladin I'd go for: Str 14 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 13 Cha 14 You got yer +2 Cha for healing and saves. You've got your 14 Str for melee, damage, and Power Attack pre-req. You've got your 13 wis for Will bonus, paladin spells and being able to use wands and scrolls of cure light. You've got no penalties for Dex, which is good because your big thing is charging and you usually aren't able to charge if you lose the init. You have an Int penalty but that's okay because you only *need* ranks in Ride and 5 ranks of Handle Animal. If you don't like the Int penalty go with: Str 14 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 11 Cha 14 For feats I'd go: 1. Mounted Combat, Ride-by attack 3. Spirited Charge 6. Power Attack 9. Divine Might Consider taking your first level in Fighter, and picking up Improved Init. Like I said, if charge is your thing you'll want to win initiative. If possible, adventure with a Marshal who has the Motivate Dexterity aura (adds Marshal's Cha bonus to all Dex rolls, including Init). Incidentally, that aura will make you a better rider. I guess you could consider taking a level of Marshal yourself and picking up that aura on your own. Skills I'd go: Ride 4 Handle Animal 4 (take to 5; this'll give a synergy bonus to Ride) After you get 5 ranks in Handle Animal start pumping another skill. Buy the heaviest armor you can afford (armor check is only for fast mount/dismount), use a lance and shield while mounted and a longsword or greatsword when on foot, carry a mace for backup and a composite mighty longbow (can use while mounted) and a few javelins (can use with shield) for ranged. Put your ability bumps into Charisma. Saves are good, and if you take Divine Might you can turn your charisma bonus (which at level 9 will be +3, not counting items or spells) into damage. Good luck! -z
samoosa691 10-15-03, 09:46 PM	or you could go the standard elite array 15,14,13,12,10,8 str 14 dex 10 con 15 int 8 wis 13 cha 12 reasoning: more str = better damage (or you could swich str and cha) dex you don't need, you need con as a paladin int you don't need if you play human (they cancel out) these stats should do quite well not to mention with the level 4 asjutment you'd have a 16 somewhere, you can play around with that if you don't want too many hp's but the power attack/cleave/great cleave chain is always a good start... or power attack divine might... any ways hope that helps
Eagle Prince 10-15-03, 10:16 PM	Yes, but the 15 isn't worth it. You could drop it to a 14 (same modifier) and up any 2 other stats by 1, like your 8 to a 10 or 12 to 14, or even the 13 to 14 and up 12 to 13 for feat prerequisites.
HammerFist 10-15-03, 10:59 PM	1)The most fun I've ever had in 3e is with 25 point buy. Ok, now that that's out there, what race are you thinking about? What races can you choose from?
Finwe 10-16-03, 12:12 AM	Personaly I would suggest: 14 str 10 dex 14 con 10 int 12 wis 14 cha Put your stat increases into strength, wisdom and charisma, and make sure you take divine might. You want to Wear the ehaviest armour possible (you have no real penalty except for speed) so you can bump up your AC.
sloisel 10-16-03, 02:48 AM	I'd do str 16, dex 10, con 12, int 10, wis 12, cha 11 Since you want to bash heads, I think the str will make a difference. As others have pointed out, a periapt of wisdom +2 will let you cast any spell of any level. If it weren't for the fact that you're playing a paladin and need all good stats, for the purpose of bashing heads I'd just go ahead and dump everything else and go for 18 strength (and orc race, etc...) Sébastien Loisel
canamrock 10-16-03, 04:00 AM	If there's a Cleric in the party, you can use Lay on Hands to help cover for a slight Con deficiency, and your Divine Grace ability will cover for weak Dex and Con values for save purposes. So, if you've got a Cleric to cover the healing angle, I'd go Cha & Str high. If you're going to be mounted, then you can worry less about Con and more about Dex. If not, then the Dex is the place to sacrifice. Int can be useful for the mounted paladin as well, so I'd suggest not dumping that if you go that route. Wis only needs to be over 12 to start if you want to go a bit heavier on your spellcasting; otherwise, you can drop some mid-to-high level enhancements there if needed.
Laelenie 10-16-03, 05:29 AM	nah... no stat more than 14 witha 25 pt buy... the loss of points is simply too hard to whitstand... go for STR 14 CON 10 DEX 12 INT 10 WIS 13 CHA 14 Keep Con down as you will be able to raise it later and still get the retroactive bonus And it really matters only at medium levels: -at lower lvls a few hit and you are dead even if yu have 20 CON -at higher lvls is just a matter of strike first, strike best and try not to get hit You will have pretty high saves good melee no int penalty... seems to me the best choice
dryhte 10-16-03, 06:22 AM	I'd go with Finwe's choice, and put stat increases at levels 4 and 8 into Str or cha, and 12 and 16 into wis. That way you can cast level 4 spells when you get them, and you have one more point to spend (at level 20) on whatever stat you happened to find a +5 tome for (I hope for your sake it's Str, but Con would be decent too)
blackbrrrd 10-16-03, 09:15 AM	Originally posted by Finwe Personaly I would suggest: 14 str 10 dex 14 con 10 int 12 wis 14 cha Put your stat increases into strength, wisdom and charisma, and make sure you take divine might. You want to Wear the ehaviest armour possible (you have no real penalty except for speed) so you can bump up your AC. This is 26pb.. drop wis to 11, statgain in cha/wis - smiting evil is nice :)
Southernskies 10-16-03, 09:51 AM	When using point-buy, the best place for any statgain is the most expensive stat to increase (many years of RPGA play reinforce this fact). It's much cheaper to start with a more average stat spread and put everything into your primary. Str 15 Dex 12 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 14 All statgain goes into Str as the most efficient use (giving a 20 base strength at Level 20). Periapt of Wisdom when you qualify for the higher level spells (+2 @8th, +4 @11th, +6 @14th). Everything is standard equipment/skills for paladins.
NHdjinn 10-16-03, 01:03 PM	Thanks alot guys... Will keep you up to date on my New level 1 pally. Will most liekly use Southernskies stats. Make the most sense for my parties needs.
DreamWeaver 10-16-03, 04:18 PM	As much as I'm happy that you've chosen which direction to go with your pally, I'm a little worried. I believe Southerskies initial stats can only be achieved with a human race if you have a 28 pt build. Str: 15 = 8 pts Dex: 12 = 4 pts Con: 12 = 4 pts Int: 10 = 2 pts Wis: 12 = 4 pts Cha: 14 = 6 pts Total: 28 pts I guess maybe subtracting one from Str (hence Str: 14, gain back 2 pts out of 3 needed), but then where would you want to subtract one more pt. Maybe Int? That gives you a negative mod, however. How about from Wis since by Southerskies suggestions you should have a Periapt of Wisdom +2 by 8th lvl, thus giving you a Wis of 13 (if you start with an 11) and allowing you to cast up to 3rd lvl pally spells.
NHdjinn 10-16-03, 05:34 PM	Well I talked to my DM...about how I think 25 pt eats. He informed of some house rules that he has to help somewhat. first..those +X constant stat goodies. Big no way. So that nerfed that idea. He instead allows you a point add every even level, not just every 4. In return...we 25 pt buy, and no constant +X stat magic items I guess its not too bad, I will survive. I figure it gives me a little room to play around and some more latitude without a dependancy on some object. I liked southernskies stats alos.....now I know why
Funny Slaughter 10-16-03, 05:42 PM	I guess its not too bad, I will survive of course you will. with a 32-PB and good min/maxers as players a DM has to adjust his monsters accordingly. if your DM bans stat-increase-items he has to do the same in the other direction, no problem. after all its up to the DM to let his party having fun, goind with 25-PB jsut throws other problems at him. i found the little munchkin inside of every player best satisfied with 32-PB and the ability to buy an 18 without being totally useless. but anyhow, pointbuy is pointbuy, and the same guidelines are used for 32 as for 25. the best place for any statgain is the most expensive stat to increase wise words spoken here. choose a stat and stay there. gs Funny
PhaedrusXY 10-16-03, 05:44 PM	Originally posted by NHdjinn Well I talked to my DM...about how I think 25 pt eats. He informed of some house rules that he has to help somewhat. first..those +X constant stat goodies. Big no way. So that nerfed that idea. He instead allows you a point add every even level, not just every 4. In return...we 25 pt buy, and no constant +X stat magic items I guess its not too bad, I will survive. I figure it gives me a little room to play around and some more latitude without a dependancy on some object. I liked southernskies stats alos.....now I know why No permanent +stat items at all? Wow... I think I'd ask what other house rules this DM uses before the game starts, heh. That one is pretty radical.
NHdjinn 10-16-03, 06:00 PM	Its funny about the houserules...90 % of them are to help us out. Sorcs take wiz feat progression (minus scribe scroll) but can only use them for metamagic feats. I like this one alot. Poor sorcs. No spike chains...but that was a rule we all decided on. I hate those freekin things. Most of its minor stuff to kill off any munchkins. No probs for me. His explanation of the no +x stat items was simple. His games are alot more Rp than HnS. He doesnt want one party member geting his hands on a item, or making an item that takes away everyone elses fun. He wants our fun to be defined by what we do, not what we get/loot etc. And I agree after some thought on the subject. I hate a PC that is only "good" or even mediocre because he has one uber item. he gives good XP for playing as your character...and has been known to give +modifiers to actually playing your character vs. "I try to get a better deal on the armor." I am fine with it...I want a RP game. Its the min/maxer in me that gets worried about stats and such . I have been playing for so long now that I know I shouldn't. Paladins are my "binkie" though, and I feel liek I always have to make a better one than the last. Thanks for the help guys NHdjinn
eudas 10-16-03, 06:21 PM	i understand. i'm kind of the same way, myself; even when i want to play a game that is totally not about min/maxing, old habits die hard. :) eudas
NHdjinn 10-16-03, 06:42 PM	I still min max my characters. I dont believe min maxing is bad or something. I do to all of them. I cant see going forth wiht a character that isnt up to snuff simply for RP value. Running from fights is lame..unless your a sorc etc. I havent found min/max mutually exclusive to rp. My problem is I incessantly worry about a point here, a point there even when I know it dont matter. Old habits do die hard..LOL