Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Aceon 11-16-04, 07:06 PM	Now that I have your attention. I need a little help for the great gods of min-max. The problem is not so much on what build I need, but on how to survive and conquer this encounter. Our party (avg lvl 13) has encountered a 27 HD Drocolich and his band of merry men...several Death Knights on Nightmares, a giant ghost a number of wights and skeletal warriors. Now, some of you may think that all this is a little over the top...those of you who don't know my (P$@*!) DM. He is convinced that our un-optimized party is ultra uber and deserves encounters of stupidly high challenge rating. Here is the situation: Our party was travelling to a farmstead operated by people loyal to our organization for generations. We were to collect the horses, pay the people and tell them that they should disperse for their own safety. Just as we arrived the farmstead was attacked by the Dracolich. It cast a Deeper Darkeness spell that covered the main house and most of the outbuildings. Screams were heard to come from inside. I play the 14th lvl Cleric and I was able to use Greater Dispell magic to dispell the deeper darkness by the 3rd round. The annoyed Dracolich then recast it as a free action...killing, I assume the people within. During that time the party was in combat with the Death Knights and minions. I was then able to cast disrupting weapon on my mace, boosted with a bead of Karma and Pious spellsurge to CL=23, and was able to teleport to the Dracolich and hang onto it's neck while attempting to hit it's 43 AC with my mace. I some how managed over two rounds to hit it twice and it made it's save somewhere in the 60's...clearly that won't work. The creature mentally told me that if I do anything to it that it would kill the girl. (?? a hostage from the farm I guess) I didn't listen and tried to destroy the creature and failed. The long and short of it is that they had more hostages on the ground and demanded the return of the vile magic items that we took from an earlier ecounter with a Death Knight Lord and his retinue. Unfortunately, I had already teleported those vile evil items to the Temple of Correlon Larethian in the elven capital over 1,000 miles away. I intended that they be cleansed of their evil taint and restored to original "good" condition...if possible. Or destroyed. The Dracolich has given me two hours to return the evil items or the hostages will be killed and our party too! It has said that if we return the items we will not be molested and allowed to leave alive. Lastly the girl was pretty much ripped in half, and many others were killed too. Now, I took the first 10 minutes after the battle to cast Planar Ally to call an Astral Deva. They can greater teleport at will (self only + gear) and I could maybe go with it inside a portable hole. I can go back and get the items from the elven temple and proceed...but I had vowed not to let those evil items remain in the world, and oh by the way, their owner... the Death Knight Lord is not dead, just reformed somewhere else. and the Dracolich has informed us that the Death Knight is irritable without his items! Ok, so here is what we have to work with. Our uber optimized party consists of: 1) an elven healer 13th lvl PrC healer- can't fight (except undead) 2) an archer 13th lvl (has bodkin/blunt arrows vs. skeletal undead) 3) an 11th lvl mage/evoker, 2nd lvl monk 4) a 12th lvl Orc fighter (highly optimized...tends to get killed 2 or 3 times a night) 5) a 14th lvl Rogue/shadowdancer who fancies himself a diplomat and dislikes fighting...fights with rapier...(not very effective vs skeletal undead) 6) and me 14th lvl elven Cleric (cleric 12/Contemplative1/Seeker of MI 1) I have a scroll of Anti-Magic Field (CL 20) and another of Gate (CL 20) I also have a necklace of Prayer Beads and can ask for help from the temple clerics of Correllon Larethian...I don't know if they will help...for all that my father is supposed to be the High Priest and all... I would not be surprised if they told me to go and pound sand...but I can try to ask. They don't take much interest in what happens in the human lands anyway. Here is my plan I hope you all can help. A) Make arraigement for the trade with the Dracolich and get the innocents out of harms way and get party healed during the time I am gone. B) Go to temple and get evil items and ask for help. C) Return and cast Anti-Magic Field (lasts 20 rounds), then return the items to the Dracolich. D) Get hostages safely away. E) Attack while Dracolich can't go etherial, fly (a SU ability) or use it's lightning breath weapon (a SU ability) or it's other stuff. Keep the Dracolich in the area of the AMF and try to grapple it with a giant or something big. Now, I am going to need to either get some help from the elves in terms of a tree ant or three or a giant or two or use the Gate scroll. The Dracolich has DR Blunt AND magic...while within the AMF I assume the "magic" component of the DR must go away since we will not have any magic items at that time. The archer's bow is an artifact and he gets full strength from it. Since it is an artifact it will remain magical while within the AMF. Any ideas or suggestions on how to succeed in this encounter? (we got fairly well spanked the first time around) Best use of Gate? Thanks in advance for whatever advice you can come up with. (yes I have been told before that my best advice is to find another DM)
SpiritGlyph 11-16-04, 07:21 PM	I rather fancy abusing that scroll of Gate, myself. Plane Shifting into the Positive Energy Plane and Gating your undead lizard there sounds like a pretty nice plan.
Kessalin Talira 11-16-04, 07:53 PM	Well, the Dracolich is about a CR 21, by the Draconomicon, so I'd say the best use of that Gate scroll would be getting a Solar. Wish and Miracle once each should be a big help. I would tell the Solar to ready an action to wish an auto-fail for the Dracolich's save when the Astral Deva hits it with the Mace. If Limited Wish can make an auto-hit on an attack, or give a -7 on one save, I'd say a full wish should be able to give an auto-fail on a save. Try to get a True Strike for the Deva, too, just in case. After that, have the Solar Miracle a Reality Maelstrom (from Manual of the Planes), but instead of a random plane as the spell states, have the miracle make sure it opens to the positive energy plane. Also, have the miracle prevent any allies or innocents from being affected. It's DEFINITELY on the level of a major miracle, but less than the effect of saving an entire city from disaster. It SHOULD create a spherical hole to the positive energy plane that's 200 feet across... I think you can get all the undead into an area that size. It takes a DC 26 will save to avoid being pulled into the vortex, and Spell resistance applies. If they're not all there, they still have to make a DC 26 Reflex save if they're within 200 feet of the maelstrom or get sucked in anyway. If you have to be in the middle of the Maelstrom when it forms, or other people are affected too, so be it... just plane shift back. At the very least, it'll heal the girl you're worried about saving. Because you're getting a single, non-unique being with fewer than 40 hit dice, you command the solar rather than bargain with it, so there's no chance of it saying no. I'd say some LARGE donations at a local temple when you're done would be in order, though. :D Then tell your DM that if he quits giving out scrolls of 20th level AMF and Gate, you won't be so uber.
Aceon 11-16-04, 09:57 PM	Plane Shifting to positive material plane and Gating the Dracolich there won't help, since he can go etherial at any time. Also, I was wondering how to go about a more permanent demise for the Dracolich. Even if we kill it, isn't it temporary anyway? Couldn't he come back and kill more innocents to punish us? I guess it would have a phylactery like any other lich right? And we would somehow need to find and destroy that also to have any lasting effect on the beast. Kessalin Talira your ideas definately have merit, but I need to find something that has a DC somwhere in the 60's and our party can't seem to muster that. DM was bragging about the thing making a DC 30 save by not rolling a one, and stating aloud that it rolled a 60 something to save. So, I think the only way to kill the beast is to get somebody big to grab it and keep it within my AMF (20th CL = 200 feet emanation?) Then we just have to pummel it with blunt weapons, and somhow hit it's 43 AC. I am trying to think if there is some way to get the temple to release any artifact they might have in their possesion for a short time. Artifacts and Relics and Deities are unaffected by the AMF. Donations to the temple are no problem. Since DM won't let me buy items, most of my gold and treasure are already in the temple vaults. Sort of a bank account. And I have donated several potent items to the temple already. I just need to find a way to hit that 43 AC with no magic, or from outside the AMF (so magic would still apply) , but with a Blunt weapon...maybe a hulking hurler? (Oh, and we have no Forgotten Realms stuff in the campaign.)
Bellegante 11-16-04, 11:48 PM	Am I mistaken in thinking you can simply gate the dracolich itself to the positive energy plane, order it not to hurt you or take any defensive actions for 20 rounds, and kill it? Or better yet, ask it to tell you anything important that it knows and then kill it? Ask your DM if a creature can voluntarily fail a save. I know it can voluntarily stand still and lay prone while you try to attack it. :smirk: If it can teleport, gate it in and ask it to destroy it's phylactery and return as fast as possible. Whatever you do, don't forget the phylactery. Aren't Dracoliches from the Forgotten Realms setting? If you don't want to use the gate scroll, can you provide a list of books you can use?
Kessalin Talira 11-17-04, 12:59 AM	Dracoliches were reprinted in the Draconomicon, which is a setting-generic book, so they might have started in the Realms, but they didn't stay there. I think the DM is just trying to get you to give up by giving you inordinately high numbers when he rolls a die, regardless of what the actual result is. If that's not the case, and he's actually rolling those numbers, then the Dracolich alone is probably at least a CR 25+ encounter. Also, the AC 43 is interesting, considering a old blue dracolich only has a 36 without items. If he decided to give the dragon bracers of armor +7 or something, then it'd make sense, but I don't know how he'd get a save DC into the 60's off the top of my head. The thing should only have about a +19 will, then add items. For a DC in the 60's, you'll have to be epic, which this thing obviously is. The dracolich alone will obliterate your party, and he's sending more on top of it. Another option you might have is gating in a Great Wyrm Bronze dragon and just letting them duke it out. It's got +49 bite, +44 everything else, and about 570 hit points. Add to that an AC of 44, and I'm pretty sure it'll be able to take the dracolich. Then your companions just have to keep the rest of the undead from ganging up on it long enough for it to finish the job, and you have to keep healing it if you can. I don't suppose you have Reach Spell, do you? The only other thing I can think of is that it's a 36 or 39 HD dracolich, rather than a 27... Which doesn't make things any easier, but might explain some of the rolls, assuming they're truthful results. I know you've heard it before, but it sounds like you should just cut your losses. This DM sounds like he's on his own personal power trip and just likes to make you guys squirm. Ask him if you can post a writeup of the dracolich on here when it's killed all of you, because there's not much you can do about it that I can see. Hmmm... do a careful study of the items you took... I wonder if one of them is the dracolich's phylactery. It might help explain the overwhelming force brought against you.
Funny Slaughter 11-17-04, 07:02 AM	there are three possible solutions: a) get something bigass in with the gate and cast AMF to even things out. attack the smaller enemies and try to get your big friend healed. b) your DM wants to tell you that a fight is not the right solution and is too stupid to express this in normal words c) your DM is not the right person to handle a game. or he really wants to play himself and is too stupid to express... gs Funny
Aceon 11-17-04, 10:20 AM	Thanks for the help! I think I understand the going to another plane and using Gate to call the Dracolich to me a little better. Since a Dracolich is not a unique being it may work. I don't believe we have the phylactery. The items have been identified with analyze dweomer. If that won't tell us that a thing is a lich's phylactery than no other power at our disposal will. Taking your idea one step further, I wonder if I could plane shift and go directly to the realm of my deity, ask for help there, and Gate the nasty beast to that place! I think the AMF may prove our best chance, (if Gating the Dracolich doesn't pan out) the problem is, I can get a big Dragon in, but I can't heal it within the AMF, and that is the whole idea. To keep the Dracolich from just flying, using his breath weapon or just leaving. I was thinking of using something big to grapple the thing. A kind of, "You hold him ...while I hit him." solution. Anyway, thanks and anyone who can offer more advice, ideas or suggestions would be most welcome!
lupo58570 11-17-04, 02:12 PM	The most important thing to think about when you are this out-gunned in battle is how you can use everything at your disposal to you advantage. What is the battlefield, are there any features of the ground or surroundings that you can use to level the field? Is there a way to efficiently remove a large portion of your enemes (atleast for a time) from the combat, for example can you use a Wall of Force to block off a good portion of your enemies long enough for you to deal with the rest? The lich itlesf is obviously your biggest problem. Read over and over all of the material you can get your hands on that deals with them. The more you know about your enemy the greater the chance you will survive an encounter with him. Post all you can about the followers that he has. The two scrolls that you have are going to be key, as they are the only two items that you have that can come close to matching what the lich will have. Speak to everyone and everything you can while "in game", cast the spells that give you information about things (legend lore pops to mind, but i know there are others), this will not only give you info about the lich, but will also give you a clue as to if the DM actually expects you to fight this thing or if it is supposed to be beyond your capabilities. I would comb thorugh all of the books you have for the biggest and best non-magical combatant that you can find to tangle with the dracolich which in the AMF. Where there is a will there is a way
xerofire 11-17-04, 02:38 PM	To bad you aren't a wizard with 100 maximized explosive runes on a rolled up scroll..... then you could just throw it at the lich and cast an area dispel... fail all the dispel checks... and blow up the lich for 3600 damage no save...:D sure theres some SR in there but the 100 is really just there for redundancy.... hehehehehehe It doesn't help right now but maybe the next time you go up against big enemies if your DM keeps doing this to you.... I use a smaller version in game and lace in the explosive meta magic to make magical charges, you can even leave a timer with delay spell and despell magic. As for information that will actually work? gate to positive material plane and fight it in a heavy positive zone? shouldn't have to worry about healing if fighting there. if you had a mage with shaping mastery.... if so have him cast the anti magic field and have it not affect your selves to make an anti magic screen. Stone shape its feet into the ground? Oh and can you forcecage the flunkies somehow? Solid fog and extended icestorms? if you can pull off any of that it should at least slow down his flunkies. sorry dudde but other than the gate you may be a bit hard up... ouch....
Jeremymc 11-17-04, 03:52 PM	Hmmm.. I'm at work right now, and can't check my books. But a bunch of stuff seems fishy about this "anecdote". First off, the poster seems unsure as to who exactly the hostages were that this Dracolich had taken. Seems wierd considering he was there for the mission. Second, this battle is so grossly outmatched that I have the feeling that if this battle actually did occur, this was one of those "not-supposed-to-win" battles, like at the beginning of Final Fantasy games where you get your butt kicked by "The Emperor" or whatever. For a party at average level 13 to face off against an epic-level creature and his minions (of whom a SINGLE one is an appropriate CR), is completely ridiculous... If the DM is playing that monster to his full abilities. I guess he could just make the monster Puss out and give the party scads of XP. MAybe he's trying to level you up fast. Thirdly, I'm pretty sure Astral Devas have more than 12HD, but I may be wrong. If they do, there's no way this cleric could have summoned one at 14th level. Unless there's some fancy trick left out of this game description (like a scroll of GREATER planar ally). And if this IS a serious battle, what you want to do is use that GATE scroll to gate in a LIVING SPELL from Eberron. You could gate in a LIVING GATE and bring out 1 solar per round, gate in a LIVING HEAL and let it go to town on the lich. OR a LIVING SUNBURST SPELL. That'll do the trick. Fourthly, how does a Cleric manage to hit AC 43 twice in two consecutive rounds in a SERIOUS (non-twinked) battle? Much less hang on to the neck of a Dracolich. And do Clerics get "teleport" on their spell list? I wasn't aware of that. I thought it was only the arcane casters?
Kessalin Talira 11-17-04, 05:12 PM	I like the Living Gate spell idea, and living spells are in Monster Manual III, too, so you could rationalize them being from worlds other than Eberron. It's an Ooze, though, so if you're worried about the dragon just leaving, that might not be the best idea. I still recommend the Great Bronze Wyrm. It flies, has better spellcasting than the dracolich, has a better AC, more attacks, better damage, is immune to the lightning breath weapon, and has a grapple check of +65 to boot. If you want something to hold it while everyone else hits it, I think that might be your best bet. It's also about the top for what you can get with Gate that you don't have to bargain with. Going to another plane and gating the Dracolich there would work, but you'll have the rest of his minions to worry about back on the material plane, and who knows what they'll do to the hostages when you kidnap their boss. If you do go with this tactic, though, make sure you go to the positive energy plane. If you don't go there, there's always Celestia. Its description in Manual of the Planes says that anyone arriving on Celestia via plane-shifting magic arrives in the ocean of holy water that surrounds the mountain. All you'd have to do is command it to swim further out and dive, and I'm pretty sure it's done for.
lupo58570 11-17-04, 05:23 PM	question for everybody, Since you are gating a specific dracolich, not any random one, wouldnt that make it a unique creature?
sma 11-17-04, 06:46 PM	question for everybody, Since you are gating a specific dracolich, not any random one, wouldnt that make it a unique creature? This rears its head whenever Gate Cheese is invoked. And to cut a long story short the answer is no. Basically a being is only unique if it can be identified by stating its race, which in the basic three books only applies to the tarrasque. Else the "...by naming a particular being..." part of the spell description would not be there. So the dracolich is fair game. Oh, and btw if youīre still strapped for ideas of who to gate in to deal with your troubles, you could ask for any of last months undead contest runner upīs :). Greater Turning and Undead donīt mix well. This would also give your DM the chance to bust out some major fireworks, which he seems to be quite fond of. Or get some prayer beads and Holy Word all of the evil beasts. Greetings, Sma
Aceon 11-17-04, 06:52 PM	Hmmm.. I'm at work right now, and can't check my books. But a bunch of stuff seems fishy about this "anecdote". First off, the poster seems unsure as to who exactly the hostages were that this Dracolich had taken. Seems wierd considering he was there for the mission. The poster? That would be me. Who are the hostages? I have never met them, but there are hidden isolated farmsteads, scattered throughout the kingdoms, whose people have served our organization for generations. The hold that they provided provisions and horses for was comprimised and as commander I ordered that the people there, (whom I have never actually met) be evacuated before our enemies caught up to them. We were travelling there to collect up some horses and to give the people the warning and the funds neccessary to move on, plus a generous extra "thank you" sum. When I got there the battle had been raging already for 3 or 4 rounds and I could here screaming coming from within the deeper darkness...killing the people we had come to warn to flee. I immediately Greater dispelled the Deeper Darkness, but the Dracolich put it up again AS A FREE ACTION. I realized that the best way to save anyone was to kill the Dracolich. I spent the next three rounds powering up with spells. Then a readied action to watch for the next flyby of the Dracolich, so I could teleport to it's neck. I could get into a long drawn out explanation of the background of this campaign that has been going on for the last year and a half, and into more detail about what happened just before and during the encounter...but I thought I put too much in there already. The point is to let people know what my group is facing without getting bogged down in detail. Second, this battle is so grossly outmatched that I have the feeling that if this battle actually did occur, ... What is your point? You saying I made this up?! For a party at average level 13 to face off against an epic-level creature and his minions (of whom a SINGLE one is an appropriate CR), is completely ridiculous... Tell that to my DM Thirdly, I'm pretty sure Astral Devas have more than 12HD, but I may be wrong. Yes. You are. Wrong that is. From the SRD: ANGEL, ASTRAL DEVA Medium Outsider (Angel, Extraplanar, Good) Hit Dice: 12d8+48 (102 hp) And if this IS a serious battle, what you want to do is use that GATE scroll to gate in a LIVING SPELL from Eberron. You could gate in a LIVING GATE and bring out 1 solar per round, gate in a LIVING HEAL and let it go to town on the lich. OR a LIVING SUNBURST SPELL. That'll do the trick. Hmm... interesting. I will look into it. I am sure that no Eberron specific stuff is allowed, but you say this is MM3? Our DM has used MM3 stuff on us before so I would say it is fair game. Fourthly, how does a Cleric manage to hit AC 43 twice in two consecutive rounds in a SERIOUS (non-twinked) battle? You are not really serious are you? Perhaps you might want to spend more time here on the Character Optimization boards before you make a comment like that. After powering up for 3 rounds I needed to roll an 18 to to hit AC 43. And yes, I got lucky by rolling an 18 in round one and 19 in round two. But it doesn't matter anyway, since the Dracolich is immune to my Disruption Weapon spell by virtue both: hit die higher than my caster level and even if he weren't his saves are too good. And do Clerics get "teleport" on their spell list? I wasn't aware of that. I thought it was only the arcane casters? ?? Recheck the Players Handbook under Cleric spells: Travel Domain. Thanks much for the Living Spell info. If you want to talk about something else, perhaps you could start another thread devoted to wondering about this one?
lupo58570 11-17-04, 06:55 PM	What are living spells?
Jeremymc 11-17-04, 07:49 PM	AAh... You see, my dear thread-starter. 1) we arrived the farmstead was attacked by the Dracolich. 2) It cast a Deeper Darkeness spell 3) I was able to use Greater Dispell magic to dispell the deeper darkness by the 3rd round. 4) The annoyed Dracolich then recast it as a free action... 5) I was then able to cast disrupting weapon on my mace, 6) teleport to the Dracolich and hang onto it's neck while attempting to hit it's 43 AC with my mace. 7) I some how managed over two rounds to hit it twice What you said was that you teleported in, and then in two round proceeded to hit the AC 43 creature twice. You mentioned NOTHING about spending three rounds powering up. So stop whining that I think you made up a totally ludicrous battle, based on the INCOMPLETE story which you provided. Of COURSE I think you made it up - based on the information you gave.
Jeremymc 11-17-04, 07:50 PM	Living spells are living spells. Spells that don't disperse, and are alive as magical oozes. They exist in Eberron. And are quite frankly, very cool. Living WISH, anybody?
Aceon 11-17-04, 07:59 PM	1) we arrived the farmstead was attacked by the Dracolich. 2) It cast a Deeper Darkeness spell 3) I was able to use Greater Dispell magic to dispell the deeper darkness by the 3rd round. 4) The annoyed Dracolich then recast it as a free action... 5) I was then able to cast disrupting weapon on my mace, 6) teleport to the Dracolich and hang onto it's neck while attempting to hit it's 43 AC with my mace. 7) I some how managed over two rounds to hit it twice Well put. :D That is just exactly what I meant to say. Again, thanks for the suggestion to look into living spell. As for the rest? (I'll just have to whine a little bit more. :P ) Based on the info that you have provided, apparently the Players Handbook would qualify as limited information according to your standard. If you don't have one handy you can check here (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/clericDomains.html) and scroll down to see the Travel Domain. Ok, I am done whining for the moment. :weep:
lupo58570 11-19-04, 03:38 PM	So What happened? Did you win? What did you end up doing?
Aceon 11-20-04, 07:29 PM	We play again on Sunday. I will follow up on Monday and let you know. I like the Gate idea best. I plan to go to the plane which is the demense of my deity and ask for some help. Then I will gate the Dracolich there and tell it to go release the hostages, and go get it's phylactery and return to me. Then I will destroy it's phylactery and tell it to not resist my spell and try to kill it. Perhaps I may enlist some angelic help there. I think what is really going to happen is that my DM is going to have a meltdown when I attempt this and he will just go banannas! :P Thanks for the help. :D