27th level Sneak Attack engine [Archive] - Wizards Community

27th level Sneak Attack engine [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lyinginbedmon
02-14-06, 04:31 PM Sneak Attacks are among the most dangerous abilities of the Rogue, correct? The epic feat, Sneak Attack of Opportunity, allows every attack of opportunity the Rogue makes to be a Sneak Attack. Additionally, the second epic feat, Improved Combat Reflexes, allows the Rogue to make an infinite number of attacks of opportunity each round. Now, consider Otto's Irresistable Dance, which causes the subject to provoke attacks of opportunity each round, for 1d4+1 rounds. An 8th level Sor/Wiz, 6th level Bard spell involving a Touch attack. So, taking the total 5 rounds of effect from OID and the 8d6 Sneak Attack required for SNoO, we get 40d6 points of Sneak Attack damage.

The quickest way to OID is through Bard, who can cast spontaneously. So that's 16 effective levels of Bard to go through, very limiting. Add in the required 8d6 Sneak Attack and Opportunist, and we're at a minimum effective Rogue level of 10. Total: 26, one shy of our 27 levels, so we'll throw in a level of Assassin for a Death Attack and Poison Use.

Now, our primary attempts for this are:

Fastest way to OID
Fastest way to 8d6 Sneak Attack
Fastest way to Opportunist
A way to make this Rogue able to cause much more damage in the 5 rounds he'd have (max) available
A way to keep this Rogue safe from most harm when he's not making Sneak Attacks

1. At 27th level, we could just try an item, but if he gets caught and disarmed he's in trouble, and this Rogue needs to be able to keep dealing his damage armed or not (Even if the latter means only nonlethal)
4. We certainly could use Craven, and I know there's a Feat/Ability that allows you to re-roll 1s in the Expanded Psionics Handbook, but the cleaner we keep this the better.

The two Epic feats of a 27th level mean that he can only take the minimum Improved Combat Reflexes and Sneak Attack of Opportunity, plus Combat Reflexes from his pre-21st feats. Leaving (Assuming Human) 8 feats left, so we'll add in Craven and Deadly Precision (The Psionic Feat), to leave 6 feats.

"Remember kids, the DM can outlaw any part of an outside source easier than he can any part of a Core source." - One very evil Synergiser
DBoot
02-14-06, 04:50 PM You might be better of grabbing Karmic Strike + Double Hit, and consider Lingering Damage as well.

If they try to hit you, you stab them twice, causing Str loss and Sneak attack damage, which is later repeated.
Esponer
02-14-06, 04:56 PM Epic? Sneak attack? Epic… sneak attack?

Are you not fundamentally barking up the wrong tree in assuming that anything like a reasonable number of opponents will be vulnerable to sneak attacks? 40d6 also isn't all that impressive at 27th level.

[Edit] Sorry for not being more helpful; couldn't help myself from pointing this out.
Lyinginbedmon
02-14-06, 04:58 PM You might be better of grabbing Karmic Strike + Double Hit, and consider Lingering Damage as well.

If they try to hit you, you stab them twice, causing Str loss and Sneak attack damage, which is later repeated.
We don't have space for Lingering Damage at the moment, we'd need another effective 5 levels of Rogue for the second Special Ability.

Karmic Strike seems useful, as does Double Hit, that leaves:
Combat Reflexes
Craven
Deadly Precision
Dodge
Improved Combat Reflexes [Epic]
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Karmic Strike
Sneak Attack of Opportunity [Epic]
Two-Weapon Fighting
=9 feats (2 Epic) = 24th level

1 feat left
Epic? Sneak attack? Epic… sneak attack?

Are you not fundamentally barking up the wrong tree in assuming that anything like a reasonable number of opponents will be vulnerable to sneak attacks? 40d6 also isn't all that impressive at 27th level.

[Edit] Sorry for not being more helpful; couldn't help myself from pointing this out.
I realise it's not that great against your average Epic opponent (Something that brings the non-spellcasting Rogue down in higher levels), but that's another benefit of being able to cast spells, such as OID. Primarily, I'm trying to make a build that can do tons of Sneak Attack damage in a short period. Remember that Golem Strike is a Sor/Wiz spell too, and Grave Strike a 1st level Clr/Pal spell, so if we can fit both in there won't be anything immune to this damage. Barring Plants of course, so fit in Vine Strike if possible, but Undead and Constructs are the most renowned. Ideally, I'd like to get a record through this, but primarily this an exercise at optimising Sneak Attack.
Pinky's brain
02-14-06, 05:35 PM Are you not fundamentally barking up the wrong tree in assuming that anything like a reasonable number of opponents will be vulnerable to sneak attacks?Targeted dispels can take down fortification, grave/golem strike help too.
Caelic
02-14-06, 05:47 PM You'd be far better served acquiring OID through Sublime Chord levels.

Say, for example:

Bard 7/Rogue 3/Sublime Chord 2/Arcane Trickster 8.

At 20th level, this gives you 9th level arcane spells (you can still take OID as a sixth level spell) and 6d6 sneak attack. Continue with AT up through 27th level, and you wind up with 9d6 sneak attack...plus the ability to Shapechange into a Gloom for an additional 13d6 Sneak Attack, plus the ability to fall back on your status as a full-fledged arcane spellcaster.

The one weakness of the build is a crappy BAB (+12)...make sure you have Wraithstrike handy.
Doomsquee
02-14-06, 06:57 PM Take one level of Archivist from Heroes of Horror, learn Grave Strike and the Druid spell Vinestrike, which the Archivist allows you to do.
Lyinginbedmon
02-15-06, 02:33 AM Ok, so we're looking at Archivist1 for the Golem/Grave/Vine Strike spells, if we can free up some space in the Feats it should be pretty helpful, so maybe a level of Loremaster or Fighter, or the dreadedly terrible Eldritch Knight. All give a bonus feat at 1st level (Loremaster through Applicable Knowledge). Fighter or Eldritch Knight should boost the BAB too.

We still need a way to speed up the Sneak Attack, and get more damage out of it, so finding a way to sneak in Improved Sneak Attack or the like would help. Anyways, Fighter1/Eldritch Knight1 gives us 2 more feats and +2 to BAB. I can't find the rules for Sublime Chord, so I can't make any judgements on it.

Rogue1/Archivist1/Bard7/Rogue2/Sublime Chord2/Arcane Trickster11 =27th level, +7d6 SA, unless Sublime Chord adds some
lostone
02-15-06, 10:25 AM Ok, so we're looking at Archivist1 for the Golem/Grave/Vine Strike spellsCan Archivist learn arcane spells? I thought it was limited to Divine. If so then you'll still need a level of wizard/sorc for Golemstrike.

Rogue1/Archivist1/Bard7/Rogue2/Sublime Chord2/Arcane Trickster11 =27th level, +7d6 SA, unless Sublime Chord adds someI don't think all this is necessary. You're a rogue, get a wand for dispel magic to bring down fortification. UMD FTW. That way you can be archivist 1/wizard1/rogue 25 with more sneak attack damage. You can improve sneak attack damage with some magic weapon enhancements (I think there are multiple but maybe just one), epic feats, etc. But this is without me reading the Gloom because I can't remember where that is, that might be a better option overall.

Where is the Gloom?
Lusden Veharo
02-15-06, 10:36 AM Can Archivist learn arcane spells? I thought it was limited to Divine. If so then you'll still need a level of wizard/sorc for Golemstrike.

Where is the Gloom?

An Archivist can learn Arcane spells if he can find them on a domain list and either

a) Find a divine scroll of the spell (unlikely)
or
b) Find a cleric with the domain and scribe the scroll, having the cleric provide the spell (much more likely)

The Gloom is in the Epic Level Handbook, it's pretty much the perfect Epic Shapechange for a sneak attacker.
lostone
02-15-06, 10:51 AM ArtificerI assume you mean Archivist? :D
The Gloom is in the Epic Level Handbook, it's pretty much the perfect Epic Shapechange for a sneak attacker.Found it. It sneak attacks as a 25th level rogue, so you would run into stacking issues.
Lusden Veharo
02-15-06, 10:58 AM Yeah, I meant Archivist, and fixed it.

As to stacking issues, a heap of classes have a class feature "...as a *class*", yet they call stack. Just because Gloom is a race doesn't mean it should be treated otherwise-especially when other classes can get sneak attack dice. Why should the Rogue be singled out for unfair treatment?
Khazra Reborn
02-15-06, 11:02 AM UMD is a much better option then bard levels though money will limit you.
Lyinginbedmon
02-15-06, 11:09 AM UMD is a much better option then bard levels though money will limit you.
That's precisely the problem, and who can't say that a Rogue going around stabbing dancing guardsmen disco-style isn't funny! :D
lostone
02-15-06, 11:11 AM UMD is a much better option then bard levels though money will limit you.In epic level wands are a pittance.
Lyinginbedmon
02-15-06, 11:31 AM In epic level wands are a pittance.
That may be, but they can still be taken. This Rogue needs to be self-sufficient in order to make it totally effective. Ie. He needs to be able to cast the spells he needs.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lyinginbedmon 02-14-06, 04:31 PM	Sneak Attacks are among the most dangerous abilities of the Rogue, correct? The epic feat, Sneak Attack of Opportunity, allows every attack of opportunity the Rogue makes to be a Sneak Attack. Additionally, the second epic feat, Improved Combat Reflexes, allows the Rogue to make an infinite number of attacks of opportunity each round. Now, consider Otto's Irresistable Dance, which causes the subject to provoke attacks of opportunity each round, for 1d4+1 rounds. An 8th level Sor/Wiz, 6th level Bard spell involving a Touch attack. So, taking the total 5 rounds of effect from OID and the 8d6 Sneak Attack required for SNoO, we get 40d6 points of Sneak Attack damage. The quickest way to OID is through Bard, who can cast spontaneously. So that's 16 effective levels of Bard to go through, very limiting. Add in the required 8d6 Sneak Attack and Opportunist, and we're at a minimum effective Rogue level of 10. Total: 26, one shy of our 27 levels, so we'll throw in a level of Assassin for a Death Attack and Poison Use. Now, our primary attempts for this are: Fastest way to OID Fastest way to 8d6 Sneak Attack Fastest way to Opportunist A way to make this Rogue able to cause much more damage in the 5 rounds he'd have (max) available A way to keep this Rogue safe from most harm when he's not making Sneak Attacks 1. At 27th level, we could just try an item, but if he gets caught and disarmed he's in trouble, and this Rogue needs to be able to keep dealing his damage armed or not (Even if the latter means only nonlethal) 4. We certainly could use Craven, and I know there's a Feat/Ability that allows you to re-roll 1s in the Expanded Psionics Handbook, but the cleaner we keep this the better. The two Epic feats of a 27th level mean that he can only take the minimum Improved Combat Reflexes and Sneak Attack of Opportunity, plus Combat Reflexes from his pre-21st feats. Leaving (Assuming Human) 8 feats left, so we'll add in Craven and Deadly Precision (The Psionic Feat), to leave 6 feats. "Remember kids, the DM can outlaw any part of an outside source easier than he can any part of a Core source." - One very evil Synergiser
DBoot 02-14-06, 04:50 PM	You might be better of grabbing Karmic Strike + Double Hit, and consider Lingering Damage as well. If they try to hit you, you stab them twice, causing Str loss and Sneak attack damage, which is later repeated.
Esponer 02-14-06, 04:56 PM	Epic? Sneak attack? Epic… sneak attack? Are you not fundamentally barking up the wrong tree in assuming that anything like a reasonable number of opponents will be vulnerable to sneak attacks? 40d6 also isn't all that impressive at 27th level. [Edit] Sorry for not being more helpful; couldn't help myself from pointing this out.
Lyinginbedmon 02-14-06, 04:58 PM	You might be better of grabbing Karmic Strike + Double Hit, and consider Lingering Damage as well. If they try to hit you, you stab them twice, causing Str loss and Sneak attack damage, which is later repeated. We don't have space for Lingering Damage at the moment, we'd need another effective 5 levels of Rogue for the second Special Ability. Karmic Strike seems useful, as does Double Hit, that leaves: Combat Reflexes Craven Deadly Precision Dodge Improved Combat Reflexes [Epic] Improved Two-Weapon Fighting Karmic Strike Sneak Attack of Opportunity [Epic] Two-Weapon Fighting =9 feats (2 Epic) = 24th level 1 feat left Epic? Sneak attack? Epic… sneak attack? Are you not fundamentally barking up the wrong tree in assuming that anything like a reasonable number of opponents will be vulnerable to sneak attacks? 40d6 also isn't all that impressive at 27th level. [Edit] Sorry for not being more helpful; couldn't help myself from pointing this out. I realise it's not that great against your average Epic opponent (Something that brings the non-spellcasting Rogue down in higher levels), but that's another benefit of being able to cast spells, such as OID. Primarily, I'm trying to make a build that can do tons of Sneak Attack damage in a short period. Remember that Golem Strike is a Sor/Wiz spell too, and Grave Strike a 1st level Clr/Pal spell, so if we can fit both in there won't be anything immune to this damage. Barring Plants of course, so fit in Vine Strike if possible, but Undead and Constructs are the most renowned. Ideally, I'd like to get a record through this, but primarily this an exercise at optimising Sneak Attack.
Pinky's brain 02-14-06, 05:35 PM	Are you not fundamentally barking up the wrong tree in assuming that anything like a reasonable number of opponents will be vulnerable to sneak attacks?Targeted dispels can take down fortification, grave/golem strike help too.
Caelic 02-14-06, 05:47 PM	You'd be far better served acquiring OID through Sublime Chord levels. Say, for example: Bard 7/Rogue 3/Sublime Chord 2/Arcane Trickster 8. At 20th level, this gives you 9th level arcane spells (you can still take OID as a sixth level spell) and 6d6 sneak attack. Continue with AT up through 27th level, and you wind up with 9d6 sneak attack...plus the ability to Shapechange into a Gloom for an additional 13d6 Sneak Attack, plus the ability to fall back on your status as a full-fledged arcane spellcaster. The one weakness of the build is a crappy BAB (+12)...make sure you have Wraithstrike handy.
Doomsquee 02-14-06, 06:57 PM	Take one level of Archivist from Heroes of Horror, learn Grave Strike and the Druid spell Vinestrike, which the Archivist allows you to do.
Lyinginbedmon 02-15-06, 02:33 AM	Ok, so we're looking at Archivist1 for the Golem/Grave/Vine Strike spells, if we can free up some space in the Feats it should be pretty helpful, so maybe a level of Loremaster or Fighter, or the dreadedly terrible Eldritch Knight. All give a bonus feat at 1st level (Loremaster through Applicable Knowledge). Fighter or Eldritch Knight should boost the BAB too. We still need a way to speed up the Sneak Attack, and get more damage out of it, so finding a way to sneak in Improved Sneak Attack or the like would help. Anyways, Fighter1/Eldritch Knight1 gives us 2 more feats and +2 to BAB. I can't find the rules for Sublime Chord, so I can't make any judgements on it. Rogue1/Archivist1/Bard7/Rogue2/Sublime Chord2/Arcane Trickster11 =27th level, +7d6 SA, unless Sublime Chord adds some
lostone 02-15-06, 10:25 AM	Ok, so we're looking at Archivist1 for the Golem/Grave/Vine Strike spellsCan Archivist learn arcane spells? I thought it was limited to Divine. If so then you'll still need a level of wizard/sorc for Golemstrike. Rogue1/Archivist1/Bard7/Rogue2/Sublime Chord2/Arcane Trickster11 =27th level, +7d6 SA, unless Sublime Chord adds someI don't think all this is necessary. You're a rogue, get a wand for dispel magic to bring down fortification. UMD FTW. That way you can be archivist 1/wizard1/rogue 25 with more sneak attack damage. You can improve sneak attack damage with some magic weapon enhancements (I think there are multiple but maybe just one), epic feats, etc. But this is without me reading the Gloom because I can't remember where that is, that might be a better option overall. Where is the Gloom?
Lusden Veharo 02-15-06, 10:36 AM	Can Archivist learn arcane spells? I thought it was limited to Divine. If so then you'll still need a level of wizard/sorc for Golemstrike. Where is the Gloom? An Archivist can learn Arcane spells if he can find them on a domain list and either a) Find a divine scroll of the spell (unlikely) or b) Find a cleric with the domain and scribe the scroll, having the cleric provide the spell (much more likely) The Gloom is in the Epic Level Handbook, it's pretty much the perfect Epic Shapechange for a sneak attacker.
lostone 02-15-06, 10:51 AM	ArtificerI assume you mean Archivist? :D The Gloom is in the Epic Level Handbook, it's pretty much the perfect Epic Shapechange for a sneak attacker.Found it. It sneak attacks as a 25th level rogue, so you would run into stacking issues.
Lusden Veharo 02-15-06, 10:58 AM	Yeah, I meant Archivist, and fixed it. As to stacking issues, a heap of classes have a class feature "...as a class", yet they call stack. Just because Gloom is a race doesn't mean it should be treated otherwise-especially when other classes can get sneak attack dice. Why should the Rogue be singled out for unfair treatment?
Khazra Reborn 02-15-06, 11:02 AM	UMD is a much better option then bard levels though money will limit you.
Lyinginbedmon 02-15-06, 11:09 AM	UMD is a much better option then bard levels though money will limit you. That's precisely the problem, and who can't say that a Rogue going around stabbing dancing guardsmen disco-style isn't funny! :D
lostone 02-15-06, 11:11 AM	UMD is a much better option then bard levels though money will limit you.In epic level wands are a pittance.
Lyinginbedmon 02-15-06, 11:31 AM	In epic level wands are a pittance. That may be, but they can still be taken. This Rogue needs to be self-sufficient in order to make it totally effective. Ie. He needs to be able to cast the spells he needs.