2nd Edition "Philosopher" Necromancer kit to 3.5 [Archive] - Wizards Community

2nd Edition "Philosopher" Necromancer kit to 3.5 [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
FriendOfReligion
04-19-05, 06:10 PM I have a 2nd edition "Philosopher" kit from The Complete Book of Necromancers, by Steve Kurtz.

Some of the non-weapon proficiencies carried over fairly easily as extremely narrow Knowledge categories (Anatomy, Necrology), but there is no 3.5 skill category for "Spirit Lore," which grants a (2nd edition) spell-like ability to speak with spirits of the dead. There's no WOTC spell which is comparable to it, either.

When the switch to 3rd edition was made, I was playing with the DM who had overseen the character from 2nd edition creation, so he had me put 5 skill points into it as Knowledge (Spirit Lore) and then just had me make a d20 skill check to do exactly what the character had been doing in 2nd edition (using pyromancy, usually -- other options would have been tarot cards, a spirit slate like the Ouija® board, etc.). I am no longer gaming with that DM and realize that the "skill" is a sort of orphan. Other DMs are unlikely to permit the 2nd edition NWP use.

My question is: What is the best way to represent the 2nd edition NWP Necromancer's "Spirit Lore" non-weapon proficiency in a 3.5 Necromancer specialist wizard?

5 skill points are a lot for a wizard, and I don't want them sitting there uselessly on my character sheet. I don't want to give up the ability ot speak with the spirits of the dead without casting a planar contact spell, either. Some feats from other publishers come close to representing the NWP. Would it be acceptable to take a bonus feat granting the ability to speak with spirits and then re-assign the 5 points elsewhere?

The character is from Waterdeep, so I am cross-posting this on a Faerun board (if the Wiz-Os permit), in case there is something specific to the Forgotten realms which he can do, but which might not be available elsewhere.
catharz
04-19-05, 11:44 PM I have two ideas. Firstly, Knowledge (Religion) is specifically inclusive of knowledge of Undead And therefore "Necrology." Secondly, the Outer Planes are the final resting place of the soul (usually), so Knowledge (the planes) may apply. Or maybe you should use (religion) for both.

For Knowledge (anatomy), the obvious choice is Knowledge (nature). However, the knowledge skill which officially gives knowledge of humanoid creatures is Knowledge (local). Which could put you in the odd position of taking Knowledge (local) to demonstrate anotomical knowledge.

Ultimately it shoulden't matter too much. If I were DMing you'd probably put a rank in Know (nature), one in (the planes), and the 5 or whatever in both (religion) and (arcana). Or some other combination you liked.
FriendOfReligion
04-20-05, 12:36 AM I have two ideas. Firstly, Knowledge (Religion) is specifically inclusive of knowledge of Undead And therefore "Necrology." Secondly, the Outer Planes are the final resting place of the soul (usually), so Knowledge (the planes) may apply. Or maybe you should use (religion) for both.

For Knowledge (anatomy), the obvious choice is Knowledge (nature). However, the knowledge skill which officially gives knowledge of humanoid creatures is Knowledge (local). Which could put you in the odd position of taking Knowledge (local) to demonstrate anotomical knowledge.

Ultimately it shoulden't matter too much. If I were DMing you'd probably put a rank in Know (nature), one in (the planes), and the 5 or whatever in both (religion) and (arcana). Or some other combination you liked.

Thanks for the input. In many third-party books which provide prestige classes for advanced necromancers (he's R 1/ W 15 -- the result of a boyhood spent robbing graves instead of helping around the family store), ranks in Knowledge (Nature) are called for to create new types of monsters. I figure that Knowledge (Anatomy) is an even more specific area of knowledge for monster-making, although it lacks the ecological information which Knowledge (Nature) might provide.

(Necrology) is actually used in some third party books as a requirement for "Necromantic feats," so I consider those points well spent -- he has sage-like knowledge of the undead and unlife (and presumably, the process of dying itself -- the sort of thing the Monks of the Long Death would appreciate).

"Spirit Lore," however, is far different. "Contact Other Plane" in 3.$ would have effects similar to the "Spirit Lore" ritual in 2nd edition, but it has risks attendant upon it which the 2nd edition NWP didn't have. "Spirit Lore" in The Complete Book of Necromancers was a 2-slot NWP, based on CHA-4 (which would mean that my character would have a +0 bonus on a D20 roll to contact spirits). Perhaps there is some "Medium" class available which has an ability which would be suitable for my guy. Please do tell, does anyone know of such?
Gothic Rose
04-20-05, 12:56 AM Firstly, check out Ravenloft material. I can think of several PrCs from Ravenloft that fit perfectly. Mongoose Publishing has a nice 3.0 book called Encyclopaedia Arcane: Necromancy, Beyond the Grave. There's a PrC in there called Spectral Loremaster, and the book details knowledge: anatomy, necrology, and spirit lore.

Check out Libris Mortis, that probably has something. Dunno, havent checked it yet.

Heal works as a good Knowledge Anatomy bit. I usually use that to reflect general knowledge of how the humanoid body works.
catharz
04-20-05, 01:27 AM There are a few 'Object reading' spells and powers out there. A corpse is an object, and so those should work fine. A super-silly way to do it is Flesh->Stone + Stonetell.
FriendOfReligion
04-20-05, 03:03 AM Firstly, check out Ravenloft material. I can think of several PrCs from Ravenloft that fit perfectly. Mongoose Publishing has a nice 3.0 book called Encyclopaedia Arcane: Necromancy, Beyond the Grave. There's a PrC in there called Spectral Loremaster, and the book details knowledge: anatomy, necrology, and spirit lore.

Check out Libris Mortis, that probably has something. Dunno, havent checked it yet.

Heal works as a good Knowledge Anatomy bit. I usually use that to reflect general knowledge of how the humanoid body works.

The Encyclopaedia Arcana: Necromancy is very good, but I don't own a copy. (I accept gifts, however....)

I haven't seen Liber Mortis, and I'm not certain how much is viewable on Amazon.com.

OT: judicious use of the "Look inside this book" feature of Amazon can be very helpful. I got Underdark after perusing it there, and have put [/i]The Book of Vile Darkness[/i] on my wish list. Since I do buy some books because of it, I have no hesitation to use it for looking up thinks in books I don't expect to buy. Doing that changed my mind about buying Vile Darkness. The EA: Necromancy isn't searchable, unfortiunately.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
FriendOfReligion 04-19-05, 06:10 PM	I have a 2nd edition "Philosopher" kit from The Complete Book of Necromancers, by Steve Kurtz. Some of the non-weapon proficiencies carried over fairly easily as extremely narrow Knowledge categories (Anatomy, Necrology), but there is no 3.5 skill category for "Spirit Lore," which grants a (2nd edition) spell-like ability to speak with spirits of the dead. There's no WOTC spell which is comparable to it, either. When the switch to 3rd edition was made, I was playing with the DM who had overseen the character from 2nd edition creation, so he had me put 5 skill points into it as Knowledge (Spirit Lore) and then just had me make a d20 skill check to do exactly what the character had been doing in 2nd edition (using pyromancy, usually -- other options would have been tarot cards, a spirit slate like the Ouija® board, etc.). I am no longer gaming with that DM and realize that the "skill" is a sort of orphan. Other DMs are unlikely to permit the 2nd edition NWP use. My question is: What is the best way to represent the 2nd edition NWP Necromancer's "Spirit Lore" non-weapon proficiency in a 3.5 Necromancer specialist wizard? 5 skill points are a lot for a wizard, and I don't want them sitting there uselessly on my character sheet. I don't want to give up the ability ot speak with the spirits of the dead without casting a planar contact spell, either. Some feats from other publishers come close to representing the NWP. Would it be acceptable to take a bonus feat granting the ability to speak with spirits and then re-assign the 5 points elsewhere? The character is from Waterdeep, so I am cross-posting this on a Faerun board (if the Wiz-Os permit), in case there is something specific to the Forgotten realms which he can do, but which might not be available elsewhere.
catharz 04-19-05, 11:44 PM	I have two ideas. Firstly, Knowledge (Religion) is specifically inclusive of knowledge of Undead And therefore "Necrology." Secondly, the Outer Planes are the final resting place of the soul (usually), so Knowledge (the planes) may apply. Or maybe you should use (religion) for both. For Knowledge (anatomy), the obvious choice is Knowledge (nature). However, the knowledge skill which officially gives knowledge of humanoid creatures is Knowledge (local). Which could put you in the odd position of taking Knowledge (local) to demonstrate anotomical knowledge. Ultimately it shoulden't matter too much. If I were DMing you'd probably put a rank in Know (nature), one in (the planes), and the 5 or whatever in both (religion) and (arcana). Or some other combination you liked.
FriendOfReligion 04-20-05, 12:36 AM	I have two ideas. Firstly, Knowledge (Religion) is specifically inclusive of knowledge of Undead And therefore "Necrology." Secondly, the Outer Planes are the final resting place of the soul (usually), so Knowledge (the planes) may apply. Or maybe you should use (religion) for both. For Knowledge (anatomy), the obvious choice is Knowledge (nature). However, the knowledge skill which officially gives knowledge of humanoid creatures is Knowledge (local). Which could put you in the odd position of taking Knowledge (local) to demonstrate anotomical knowledge. Ultimately it shoulden't matter too much. If I were DMing you'd probably put a rank in Know (nature), one in (the planes), and the 5 or whatever in both (religion) and (arcana). Or some other combination you liked. Thanks for the input. In many third-party books which provide prestige classes for advanced necromancers (he's R 1/ W 15 -- the result of a boyhood spent robbing graves instead of helping around the family store), ranks in Knowledge (Nature) are called for to create new types of monsters. I figure that Knowledge (Anatomy) is an even more specific area of knowledge for monster-making, although it lacks the ecological information which Knowledge (Nature) might provide. (Necrology) is actually used in some third party books as a requirement for "Necromantic feats," so I consider those points well spent -- he has sage-like knowledge of the undead and unlife (and presumably, the process of dying itself -- the sort of thing the Monks of the Long Death would appreciate). "Spirit Lore," however, is far different. "Contact Other Plane" in 3.$ would have effects similar to the "Spirit Lore" ritual in 2nd edition, but it has risks attendant upon it which the 2nd edition NWP didn't have. "Spirit Lore" in The Complete Book of Necromancers was a 2-slot NWP, based on CHA-4 (which would mean that my character would have a +0 bonus on a D20 roll to contact spirits). Perhaps there is some "Medium" class available which has an ability which would be suitable for my guy. Please do tell, does anyone know of such?
Gothic Rose 04-20-05, 12:56 AM	Firstly, check out Ravenloft material. I can think of several PrCs from Ravenloft that fit perfectly. Mongoose Publishing has a nice 3.0 book called Encyclopaedia Arcane: Necromancy, Beyond the Grave. There's a PrC in there called Spectral Loremaster, and the book details knowledge: anatomy, necrology, and spirit lore. Check out Libris Mortis, that probably has something. Dunno, havent checked it yet. Heal works as a good Knowledge Anatomy bit. I usually use that to reflect general knowledge of how the humanoid body works.
catharz 04-20-05, 01:27 AM	There are a few 'Object reading' spells and powers out there. A corpse is an object, and so those should work fine. A super-silly way to do it is Flesh->Stone + Stonetell.
FriendOfReligion 04-20-05, 03:03 AM	Firstly, check out Ravenloft material. I can think of several PrCs from Ravenloft that fit perfectly. Mongoose Publishing has a nice 3.0 book called Encyclopaedia Arcane: Necromancy, Beyond the Grave. There's a PrC in there called Spectral Loremaster, and the book details knowledge: anatomy, necrology, and spirit lore. Check out Libris Mortis, that probably has something. Dunno, havent checked it yet. Heal works as a good Knowledge Anatomy bit. I usually use that to reflect general knowledge of how the humanoid body works. The Encyclopaedia Arcana: Necromancy is very good, but I don't own a copy. (I accept gifts, however....) I haven't seen Liber Mortis, and I'm not certain how much is viewable on Amazon.com. OT: judicious use of the "Look inside this book" feature of Amazon can be very helpful. I got Underdark after perusing it there, and have put [/i]The Book of Vile Darkness[/i] on my wish list. Since I do buy some books because of it, I have no hesitation to use it for looking up thinks in books I don't expect to buy. Doing that changed my mind about buying Vile Darkness. The EA: Necromancy isn't searchable, unfortiunately.