Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Caelic 10-25-06, 06:17 PM	Is it just me, or is Master Specialist tailor-made for entry into Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil? Consider: IoSV requires three feats to get into: Spell Focus (abjuration,) Skill Focus (spellcraft,) and Greater Spell Focus (abjuration.) Master Specialist (abjurer) also requires Spell Focus (abjuration)--but, if you were going into IoSV, that's no cost at all, since you were going to take it anyway. Within the first few levels, it then gives you the OTHER two IoSV required feats for free. You also net the abjuration esoterica, a couple of abjuration spells (which might or might not be able to be pulled from any spell list, depending on your DM,) and two CL increases for your abjurations. Not bad. Furthermore, you can enter Master Specialist after only three levels of Abjurer...meaning you finish out the class at level 13, leaving you with 7 levels. By some strange coincidence, IoSV needs exactly seven levels to complete. Funny how that works out, isn't it? So: a rough build. I'll refine this as time goes on. 1. Abjurer 1: Spell Focus (Abjuration,) 2. Abjurer 2 3. Abjurer 3: 4. MS 1: Skill Focus (Spellcraft) 5. MS 2 6. MS 3: GSF (Abjuration), 7. MS 4: Minor Esoterica 8. MS 5 9. MS 6 10. IoSV 1 11. IoSV 2 12. IoSV 3 13. IoSV 4 14. IoSV 5 15. IoSV 6 16. IoSV 7 17. MS 7: Intermediate Esoterica 18. MS 8 19. MS 9 20. MS 10 It seems most beneficial to postpone MS 7-10. It increases the value of that second Expanded Knowledge, and it means we get the IoSV benefits as quickly as possible. Now: the question is, which feats to choose?
zarzak 10-25-06, 06:25 PM	Ooo, very nice. Too bad the abjuration reserve feats don't really fit.
PhoenixInferno 10-25-06, 06:26 PM	Tweedledope noticed that.
Endarire 10-25-06, 09:55 PM	Improved Initiative, Iron Will, and School Focus (Transmutation, Evocation, Enchantment, or Necromancy.) IW is for incantatrix and School Focus is for archmage. -EE
zarzak 10-25-06, 11:25 PM	Improved Initiative, Iron Will, and School Focus (Transmutation, Evocation, Enchantment, or Necromancy.) IW is for incantatrix and School Focus is for archmage. -EE Umm ... no room for those pcs in a 20 lvl build?
RadicalTaoist 10-26-06, 01:25 PM	Might I recommend seeing if you can stuff the Dragonwrought Kobold stunt in there?
Endarire 10-26-06, 04:36 PM	I meant those PrCs for epic. -EE
zarzak 10-26-06, 04:40 PM	Ah, gotcha.
sornet 10-26-06, 05:38 PM	I was already thinking in that build for a pre-epic campaign (starting at 17 ECL), but I couldn't decide between Caelic's build and Wizard 5/Incantatrix 1-4/IotSV 7/Incantatrix 5-8. What do you think is better? Very high CL for abjuration spells or persistant spell cheese? The main problem I see adding Incantatrix to the mix is that you get 3 barred schools (maybe too much). Back to feats: Extraordinary Spell Aim, Elven Spell Lore? Metamagic Spell Focus?
Caelic 10-26-06, 05:54 PM	Incantatrix is nice, but the ability to take the Metamagic Spell Trigger feat now gives a portion of that "oomph" to other classes. Incantatrix is still probably the more powerful route, but short of Pun-Pun, Incantatrix is just about ALWAYS the more powerful route. :)
NineInchNall 10-26-06, 05:58 PM	Yes, but the feat is less powerful than the class feature of the same name. Might I recommend seeing if you can stuff the Dragonwrought Kobold stunt in there? It depends on how much dragonwrought cheese you allow. I for one don't buy the "can select epic feats" crap, so putting Dragonwrought Kobold at first level lets you choose Spell Focus (abjuration) at third. Wonder of wonders, you're in. A +3 to every mental stat doesn't hurt a Wizard at all. Master Specialist also provides one with the necessary feats for Archmage, and for Shadowcrafter (should you be doing a Shadowcraft Mage build).
abyssling 10-30-06, 01:49 PM	My planned build is as follows. I know that Elven High Mage is not the very best Epic PrC, but some things you just want to do for character reasons, stats be damned. The archmage levels are up for debate as well, just wasnt sure what I wanted to do with those last 4 levels before High Mage. Abjurer might even be a better choice given the extra metamagic feat, or possibly an Epic continuation of MS. Kinda undecided there... I will need to swap out something for another spell focus feat if I Go arch I realize... Suggestions? Barred schools are Illusion and Necromancy btw. Character is a Male Sun Elf. 1 Abj1 Collegiate Wizard (as my DM is notorious for not giving us time to track down spells and all the casters we kill are sorcerors heh) 2 Abj2 3 Abj3 Spell Focus Abj 4 MS1 Skill Focus Spellcraft 5 MS2 6 MS3 Combat Casting, Greater Spell focus Abj (my current level) 7 MS4 8 MS5 9 MS6 Extend Spell 10 IoSV1 11 IoSV2 12 IoSV3 Widen Spell 13 IoSV4 14 IoSV5 15 IoSV6 Metamagic School Focus 16 IoSV7 17 MS7 18 MS8 Skill Focus (Knowledge: Arcana) 19 MS9 20 MS10 21 Arch1 Epic Skill Focus (Spellcraft) Mastery of Counterspelling 22 Arch2 Spell Power +1 23 Arch3 Spell Power +2 24 Arch4 Spell Power +3 Epic Skill Focus (Knowledge: Arcana) 25 Elven High Mage (where the remainder of my levels will go)
Hanniball 10-30-06, 06:11 PM	Very nice build Caelic! Lots of synergy, extremely simple and very powerful. Now: the question is, which feats to choose? How do you feel about Quicken Spell-like ability: Warding and Ability Focus: Warding?
Caelic 10-30-06, 06:51 PM	Mmm...I don't know, Hannibal. Ability Focus, yes, absolutely...but is Quicken really going to be very useful, given the IoSV's Reactive Warding ability?
Hanniball 10-30-06, 09:33 PM	is Quicken really going to be very useful, given the IoSV's Reactive Warding ability? Normally Immediate Actions can be used on your turn. In that case it counts as your swift action for the turn. However, the wording of Reactive Warding seems to imply it can only be used in response to an opponents action (i.e. not on your turn) With this interpretation, Quicken Spell-like ability would become viable as a means of activating your Warding on your turn and still having a standard action to play around with. This could be useful for encounters where you are not aware of your opponents or the presence of other hazards (gases, clouds, mind-affecting spells, etc). Either way...just my 2 cp
abyssling 10-31-06, 03:44 PM	Hmm... Ability Focus. I did know know non-monsters could take this feat nor apply it to a class ability like that. Interesting...
Kribage 12-01-06, 09:34 PM	Well, Extraordinary Spell Aim seems tailor-made for abuse with Master Specialist's 10th level abjuration ability and Anti-magic Field. My feat choices would probably go something like this: 1 Spell Focus (Abjuration), Extend Spell 3 Widen Spell 4 Skill Focus (Spellcraft) 6 Greater Spell Focus (Abjuration), Persistent Spell 9 Quicken Spell-like Ability 12 Metamagic Spell Trigger 15 Extraordinary Spell Aim 18 Metamagic School Focus (Abjuration) I would agree with Hanniball's interpretation of Reactive Warding, as it specifies that you can use it as an immediate action after an opponent begins an action, which seems pretty clear to me. Hence, Quicken SLA. While Metamagic Spell Trigger is no Incantatrix, it does allow for tons of Persistent cheese, such as with wands of Divine Power, Wraithstrike, and other goodies. The build offered by the OP is definately powerful, but more in a support, tactical superiority way than the straight devastation of Incantatrix, and I think that's where you need to focus if it's going to be a good character build. Side-note: If you're not a human (or strongheart halfling) and don't have that extra 1st level feat, I would ditch Quicken SLA. How often do you really need to lay down a ward on your turn? The Initiate in the party I DM for often winds up using them for 2 things: ghetto-counterspells, and Con damage to enemies attacking the party. Both those seem to work just fine with Reactive Warding as is.