Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Cardinal Teplin 02-02-05, 01:47 PM	Hokay, I'm trying to build a high charisma fighter, and am looking for any advice and improvements that anyone can give. The theme is high chr, so anything that makes use of a high chr is good. Most of these builds use divine grace (paladin), turn undead (paladin), minor aura (marshal), and chr-based spellcasting (Divine Crusader), all based on chr. It's a Living Greyhawk game, so I'm allowed most of the material from the complete series, races of stone, races of the divine, minature's handbook, and the greyhawk feats in dragon 415 and 419. Having more than 3-4 fights a day is unusual, which makes x/day abilities more useful than they otherwise would be. Access to magic items is largely pot luck. Characters are retired at 16th level. With that in mind... My planned stats (28 pt build) Human str 14 int 11 wis 8 dex 10 con 12 chr 17 Unless anyone has a convincing reason not to, I'm going for tower sheild and the heaviest armour I can find. Main weapon is going to be my deity's favoured weapon, probably a longsword, but I'll certainly carry others. Build 1 - The heroic paladin (put wis up to 10, take int down to 9) 1 Paladin 1 power attack, weapon focus 2 paladin 2 3 paladin 3 Goad 4 paladin 4 5 Marshal 1 6 Marshal 2 Divine shield 7 Marshal 3 8 ??? 1 9 Crusader 1 Divine strike 10 D Oracle 1 11 Contemplative 1 12 D Oracle 2 Practiced spellcaster 13 Contemplative 2 14 Crusader 2 15 Crusader 3 imp intiative This option gets paladin's divine grace and turn undead, used to power the divine feats. Marshal provides a bonus to dex checks (and initiative), which is later built on by the improved initative at 15th. With a stat boost item for wis, I'll also get one paladin spell per day. Even so, I'll need a higher wisdom than before, but there is also no need for int in this build. The biggest problem here is what to do with 8th level. Fighter is tempting, giving me another feat and allowing the tower sheild, but also coming with a whopping 40% xp penalty. I don't qualify for any other prestige classes as the build stands. The most likely option is to move imp initative down to 1st level, move all the other feats up three levels, and go for occult slayer, as in the 2nd build below. Alternately, I could replace goad with combat casting, and go for warpriest. Not a great class, but the glory domain is handy. I'm not happy with the build as is, although it's probably technically the best of the three. Build 2 - The spell-hunter paladin 1 Paladin 1 Skill focus diplomacy, weapon focus 2 paladin 2 3 Fighter 1 Goad, Improved intiative 4 Marshal 1 combat expertise 5 Marshal 2 6 Marshal 3 Improved trip 7 Occult slayer 1 8 Occult slayer 2 9 D Crusader 1 Practiced spell caster 10 D Oracle 1 11 Contemplative 1 12 D Oracle 2 power attack 13 Contemplative 2 14 Crusader 2 15 Crusader 3 Improved overun Here I've dumped turn undead in favour of two levels of occult slayer, getting +1 on my saves, +d6 damage against spellcasters, and spell turning 1/day. I no longer get the divine feats, and have instead gone for trip fighting. The marshal provides a bonus to strength checks, not dex, and the D Crusader has many size and strength boosting spells, allowing an impressive trip even at high level. The last two feats are basically filler. I didn't know what else to put in. Power attack is always useful though, and imp overrun also benefits from the marshal's bonus to strength checks. (NB The marshal gets a feat at 1st level if the character already has skill focus:diplomacy. I've used this to delay combat expertise until I can get a stat-boosting item to help qualify for it.) This is probably my favourite of the three builds. Build 3 - The descendent of Kord 1 Barbarian 1 weapon focus, Improved intiative 2 Marshal 1 3 marshal 2 Blood of Kord 4 Marshal 3 5 Fighter 1 Combat expertise 6 Fighter 2 Improved trip, Goad 7 Occult slayer 1 8 Occult slayer 2 9 D Crusader 1 Practiced spell caster 10 D Oracle 1 11 Contemplative 1 12 D Oracle 2 power attack 13 Contemplative 2 14 Crusader 2 15 Crusader 3 Improved overrun No paladin levels, which hurts my saves, but also allows me to be a full-on worshipper/decendent of Kord, god of strength. Marshal gives me boni to trip and overun checks, I take the strength domain as a D crusader, and competion domain as a contemplative, getting me strength boost, strength boosting spells like enlarge and righteous might, and +1 on opposed checks (ie trip and overrun). I like this build, largely because of the Kord theme running through it, but losing the paladin's divine grace hurts my saves, particularly reflex which is almost non-existent with this build. That said, rage is handy, and blood of Kord is almost as good as divine strike. I like this build a lot, but worry that it's not as effective as the others. Sources: Most material is from the player's handbook. Marshal is a base class from the minature's handbook. Divine Oracle, Contemplative, Divine Crusader and the competition domain are from the complete Divine Goad appears in the minature's handbook, complete adventurer, and several other sources as well. Occult slayer, divine strike and divine sheild come from the complete Warrior Blood of Kord appears the feat articles from Dragon magazne 415 and 419.
preacher of nothing 02-02-05, 02:04 PM	I noticed these are all good based high cha tank builds. If you need something similar but evil, you might like this: http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5347283&postcount=4
rilem 02-02-05, 02:18 PM	The obvious alternative for the Barbarian build is the Champion of Gwynharf (sp?) from Book of Exalted Deeds, a CG Exalted Barbarian type. Levels stack with Barbarian for rage and you get Cha to Saves at level 2. Take it instead of Divine Oracle, which you don't qualify for anyway (No Skill Focus -- Know Religion feat). You'll need Knight of Stars and Righteous Rage -- sub out your Combat Exp/Trip feats and take Wolf Totem Barbarian (Unearthed Arcana) instead, which gets Imp. Trip for free at level 2. Dump Occult Slayer b/c reflective spell isn't great with only 2 levels. And why Divine Crusader instead of Divine Champion? Champion seems to have more Cha synergy. Wolf Totem Bbn2/Marshal3/Fighter2/Champ.ofG3/Contemplative2/DivineChampion3
Mommy was an Orc 02-02-05, 03:34 PM	A build I kind of like is: Bard 2/Hexblade 3/Fighter 2/Suel Arcanamach 4/Sublime Chord 1/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 4. Lots of charisma synergy, solid caster, Mettle, feats, not a lot of dead levels with a Sublime Chord build. Or the much simpler Bard 7/Hexblade 3/Sublime Chord 1/Eldritch Knight 5
Khazra Reborn 02-02-05, 03:43 PM	I like the kord one....could you expand on kords blood feat a bit? there was a kord prc called th mighty contender of kord in a dragon. sorry can't remember the issue. It gives loads of abilities which focus on the strength domain, a cleric10/mighty contender can add +20 to str multiple times per day for multiple rounds & 30 str1/day! Very good build if you ever need to lift up a house or anything. The champion of G is a great prc, just have the name changed to champion of kord & your sorted :P
Cardinal Teplin 02-02-05, 03:52 PM	Good catch on the Divine Oracle - I could take that out, since the character isn't likely to make reflex saves in any case, and doesn't really benefit from the Oracle domain... Of course he doesn't benefit much from Continuing in Divine Crusader either, although the BAB is nice... Not heard of Divine champion. Or Knight of Stars, or Righteous rage. Which books? And did you catch that I'm not allowed Book of Exalted Deeds or Unearthed Arcana? Occult slayer gets 7 level spell turning, not 2 (caster level for spell turning = occult slayer level+5). I'm also interested in the damage bonus against spellcasters, since lots of outsiders have spell-like abilties. But I'm certainly willing to drop it for something else. MWAO Like the build. I had thought of hexblade as an alternative source of divine grace, although the alignment requirement is tricky. Bard hadn't occured to me. I've never particularly rated bardic spellcasting, but I'm willing to be pursuaded. My biggest worry is whether I'd still be a viable front-liner with such a low BAB. I'll have to look up sublime chord. Would war chanter work with this, or not? Preacher - Nice build. Monk not really my speed, and I can't get paladin of tyrannyor go evil. I like the idea of the bellflower tatoo though....
Cardinal Teplin 02-02-05, 04:00 PM	I like the kord one....could you expand on kords blood feat a bit? Sure. Basically it gives you an amount of bonus damage equal to twice your level, per day. You can allocate this extra damage to any sucessful hit, but only while raging, and only up to half the total with each hit. It's not great, but it is flavourful, and it's pretty good considering the campaign rarely has more than a few fights per day. The champion of G is a great prc, just have the name changed to champion of kord & your sorted :P It does sound great, but I can't use the book of exaulted deeds. :weep:
Mommy was an Orc 02-02-05, 04:14 PM	The BAB is similar to your other builds. You lose one BAB for Bard, one for Sublime Chord, and one for either having 7 levels of Bard or 4 levels of Suel Arcanamach. Bard hp aren't that great, which is why I like the Bard 2/Hexblade 3/Fighter 2/Suel Arcanamach 4/Sublime Chord 1/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 4 better. At the end, you're casting 7th level spells Arcane spells and have a +12 BAB. +11/9/15+Charisma bonus are your saves. And finally, you can get the feat Battle Caster which lets you cast in Medium Armor without Spell Failure and therefore suit up with Mithril Plate. Warchanter doesn't work with it - in order to qualify for Sublime Chord, you need Bardic Music, 3rd level Arcane Spells, and some decently high Bard skills. MWAO My biggest worry is whether I'd still be a viable front-liner with such a low BAB. I'll have to look up sublime chord. Would war chanter work with this, or not?
sgc8647 02-03-05, 03:58 AM	I personnaly like: Ftr 1 / bard 4 / SpS 5 / SC 2 / EK 4 nets you 2 bonus feats +1 BaB Spellsword goodies and 6th level spells and i also like what i am currently playing check my sig for the pally sorc Gish gregoire
Cardinal Teplin 02-03-05, 09:33 AM	Right, looking much harder at the arcane route than I did before. Mwao - Nice build, ending up with BAB of +12 and 6th level spells at 15th level. There may be some in-character problems with Suel Arcanamach, but I'll look into it. Like my build, the number of spells known is very limited - what kind of spells were you thinking? You've got a decent caster level if you stick in practiced spellcaster, and good save DCs, but would be focusing on buff spells, zap spells, or what? Similarly, what feats? You can't do the divine feats thing, or the trip fighter thing. Is this a primary fighter with spellcasting abilties, or a spellcaster with some fighting ability? There are a lot of feats to play with, more than in my build, but I'm not sure what you want to do with them. My biggest concern is that both armour and spellcasting come in quite late on. At 10th level I have 2nd level spellcasting, a BAB of +8, and presumably can't wear much armour. Or get good armour, and have no spells. It's only at the later levels that spellcasting kicks in, and only very late on that I could, as a character, acquire some decent enchanted armour without knowing I'd have to trade it in again in two levels time. So, better saves, better BAB, more feats, more versatile spellcasting, better caster level, mettle, dispel 1/day, hexblade curse, bardic music 2/day. Worse armour, less synergy between feats and class abilities, lower level spells, less damage. It would probably come down to whether we can squeeze some synergy out the feats and arcane spells. Your build has many more options, but I'm not sure how they would work in combination. For example, would I still be using bard song at high level? How many buff spells does one character have the time to usefully cast? And so on. sgc8647 - Very similar build, as you mentioned. I like the channel spell ability from spellsword, but it suffers from most of the low level spells being bardic, not wiz/sorceror. I suppose both builds have so few spells known that what really matters is what spells you would choose, not what lists they are from. And again, feat choice makes a difference. So what spells and feats? I didn't specify spells on my builds, but for the paladin builds I'm looking at the domains of Glory, followed by war, while for the Kord build I'm looking at competition and mystiscism, or strength and war. I'm open to other suggestions, of course, but bear in mind I'm not likely to get a totally free choice of domains. War and competion feature becasue of divine might, and competion has the added advatange of a domain power that stacks with trip. I'm also fond of their other spells. Glory has lovely spells, while mystcism is unusual in having a 1st level spell that's actually useful to me. Not the most vital consideration, but since I end up with 5 1st level spells per day, it's worth considering just how useless remove fear, magic weapon, and disrupt undead can be for a high level character.
Mommy was an Orc 02-03-05, 03:04 PM	You get the caster abilities of a 5th level Sublime Chord - they can cast 7th level spells at 16th level. At 10th level, that's true, you do have only 2nd level spellcasting, but you get to apply the Extend Spell for free. If you take the Practiced Spellcaster feat and apply it to Suel Arcanamach at 9th level, then you'll have effectively a caster level of 13(for dispelling)/14(for how long the spells last) on spells you cast on yourself. Until your spell capability is really worth something, just wear whatever armor you want anyway. Mithril Plate only gives you a spell failure chance of 25%, 0% after taking Battlecaster for your Bard/Sublime Chord spells, 5% for Suel Arcanamach spells. I'd take spells like the following: Bard: Inspirational Boost(CV) - makes your Inspire Courage +2 as a swift + the regular standard action. With your charisma eventually hitting 18, you should be able to cast this the same numbers of times that you can do Bardic Music. This basically compensates for your BAB loss as well as boosting the rest of the party. Then just keep talking throughout the whole battle. If you have spell failure, the Inspire Courage +1 still goes off. Sure, it isn't going to work in every battle, but it does last until you stop talking - 2 battles right in a row, you should be able to keep it going through both battles. Suel Arcanamach: Protection from Align, Enlarge Person Alter Self, Wraithstrike(CV), and Listening Lorecall(CV) - Wraithstrike will turn all your attack actions into touch attacks for 2 rounds. Listening Lorecall will really up your Listen roll and give you Blindsight at 30'...at 9th level, with Practiced Spellcaster, AS and LL will last 2 hours each. Protection from Energy seems to be the best choice here. Sublime Chord(some options): Polymorph, War Cry(CV) Greater Heroism, Mass Suggestion, Overland Flight, Nightstalker's Transformation Otto's Irresistible Dance, Anti-Magic Field, Tenser's Transformation, Improvisation(CV) Shadow Conjuration, Greater My biggest concern is that both armour and spellcasting come in quite late on. At 10th level I have 2nd level spellcasting, a BAB of +8, and presumably can't wear much armour. Or get good armour, and have no spells. It's only at the later levels that spellcasting kicks in, and only very late on that I could, as a character, acquire some decent enchanted armour without knowing I'd have to trade it in again in two levels time. So, better saves, better BAB, more feats, more versatile spellcasting, better caster level, mettle, dispel 1/day, hexblade curse, bardic music 2/day. Worse armour, less synergy between feats and class abilities, lower level spells, less damage.
Cardinal Teplin 02-03-05, 07:52 PM	You get the caster abilities of a 5th level Sublime Chord - they can cast 7th level spells at 16th level. Not quite. You posted a 17 level build. At 15th level, the highest at which the character will ever be played, you only have the caster abilties of a 3rd level sublime chord - 6th level spells. If I had 16 levels to play with I'd go for a neutral nature worshipper, and go hexblade3/fighter2/occult slayer2/divine crusader9, getting the sudden extend feat and shapechange as my 9th level spell. As it is, I'm only playing the character up to level 15. Similarly, sgc8647's build was 16 levels. Some good spell choices. Antimagic shell is a particular favourite of mine. I can't imagine ever needing overland flight, since in in the campaign, splitting the party is so strongly discouraged. I'm not convinced by the dispelling strike ability though. I have to hit him for it to work, yes? While this is useful, if his spells aren't stopping me from hitting him, surely I could batter him to death anyway? Similarly, the bard song + improvisional boost combo is a good one, but doesn't really make up for not having marshal. Then again I'm probably overly fond of marshal, since it's lack of a full base attack bonus is a drag on my whole build. :(
Mommy was an Orc 02-03-05, 10:57 PM	Overland Flight is simply good for the ability to constantly fly, not necessarily for the ability to leave the party. You always get +1 to hit for being above your opponent, you don't set off certain traps, not affected by a lot of terrain, and it lasts for hours. Dispelling Strike isn't a main ability, it is something you can just do along the lines of a Monk's Stunning Fist. You're fighting a mage, you try the Dispelling Strike with your highest BAB attack. If as an example, he's cast Stoneskin, you might dispel the Stoneskin, then get to take a few good swats at him before he can raise any more defenses. It isn't defined as being a standard action, but rather just a normal attack. The thing about Bard Song+Improv Boost is that in two combats per game, you're the equivalent of someone who has full BAB and does a little more damage than the average. And you boost the party, too. Marshal is a nice dip in terms of what it does for a party, but it isn't the greatest in actual combat unless someone happens to be really vulnerable to one of its minor auras or you have the right type of additional warrior in the party. The Bard levels are qualifying you for Sublime Chord, something Marshal can't. Also, just to point out, the build grabs +6 BAB before it does Suel Arcanamach - so no long delay for that 2nd attack. Some good spell choices. Antimagic shell is a particular favourite of mine. I can't imagine ever needing overland flight, since in in the campaign, splitting the party is so strongly discouraged. I'm not convinced by the dispelling strike ability though. I have to hit him for it to work, yes? While this is useful, if his spells aren't stopping me from hitting him, surely I could batter him to death anyway? Similarly, the bard song + improvisional boost combo is a good one, but doesn't really make up for not having marshal. Then again I'm probably overly fond of marshal, since it's lack of a full base attack bonus is a drag on my whole build. :(
scrollreader 02-03-05, 11:32 PM	Hexblade 4/Marshall 3/Arcane Duelist 2/Blackguard 3/Divine Oracle 2/Warrior Skald 6 BAB +17 Evasion. Mettle. Cha to saves. Cha to AC. Cha to saves /again/ with Arcane Grace. Feats: Divine Might (Cha to Damage) Snowflake Wardance: (Cha to Attacks) and Divine Shield (Cha to AC). Hard to get more of a 'high charisma fighter' than this. Cha is of course, crucial. If you can't be a Star Elf, be human, but at least have an 18 to start (or as high as possible). I recommend Minor Aura: Motivate Dexterity for adding to initiative, and sillyness like balancing in full plate. The other Minor aura is up to you, but I like Motivate Charisma, to crank up your social skills outside of combat. Major aura is blah. But nothing wrong with Resiliant Troops or Motivate Attack. It is, after all, free.
nagrom 02-04-05, 05:16 AM	Neutral Good Human Ranger1/Fighter4/Soldier of Light10/Divine Champion5 (Note that this is 3.0 build) 1 Ranger1 2 Ranger1/Fighter1 3 Ranger1/Fighter2 4 Ranger1/Fighter3 5 Ranger1/Fighter4 6 Ranger1/Fighter4/Soldier of Light1 7 Ranger1/Fighter4/Soldier of Light2 8 Ranger1/Fighter4/Soldier of Light2/Divine Champion1 9 Ranger1/Fighter4/Soldier of Light2/Divine Champion2 10 Ranger1/Fighter4/Soldier of Light2/Divine Champion3 11 Ranger1/Fighter4/Soldier of Light2/Divine Champion4 12 Ranger1/Fighter4/Soldier of Light2/Divine Champion5 ... 20 Ranger1/Fighter4/Soldier of Light10/Divine Champion5 Full BAB, 5 fonus fighter feats, high fortitude save, high HP The idea behind this build was to get Divine Might and Divine Grace asap without resorting to paladin or losing BAB. I did consider taking cleric levels (losing BAB) or Holy Liberator but eventually I did settle with Soldier of Light from Deities & Demigods. It is very easy to qualify for SoL (knowledge religion 4, BAB5) eventhough knowledges have to be taken as cross class skills. Since the campaign is in FR the PrC was converted to use Lathander as the deity. I did choose to take Divine Champion PrC (Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting) early since it gives fighter bonus feats, better reflex save and Divine Wrath. SoL is also a good choice, especially if you want minor divine spellcating Charisma synenergy: Cha to Saves (Divine Grace(SoL2)) Cha to Damage (Turning (SoL1), Power Attack, Divine Might) Divine Wrath (Divine Champion5) Leadership Diplomacy (SoL class skill) Feats: 1 Dodge, Iron Will (Ambidexterity, TWF) 2 Weapon Focus (Light Mace (Lathander favourite weapon)) 3 Combat Reflexes, Hold the Line 5 Power Attack 6 Divine Might 9 Mobility, Spring Attack 11 Improved TWF (or Cleave) 12 Leadership 15 ??? 18 ??? This feat selection is from my character so it is not really optimized. The basic idea is to increase the number of attacks per round and thus the effectiveness of Divine Might. Primary combat mode is to use a reach weapon and get AoO on enemies. Secondary mode is to employ TWF. Survivability is also considered by increasing otherwise poor will save with Iron Will and taking Spring Attack tree to counter monsters with reach. I'd summarize this build as a versatile fighter with divine punch ;) //nagrom
Cardinal Teplin 02-04-05, 09:52 AM	Hexblade 4/Marshall 3/Arcane Duelist 2/Blackguard 3/Divine Oracle 2/Warrior Skald 6 BAB +17 Evasion. Mettle. Cha to saves. Cha to AC. Cha to saves /again/ with Arcane Grace. Feats: Divine Might (Cha to Damage) Snowflake Wardance: (Cha to Attacks) and Divine Shield (Cha to AC). Interesting. Certainly less spellcasting than previous builds, but still some hexblade and blackguard spells. And you've partly solved the problem of how to get turn undead without spending 4 levels on paladin. The closest I got was taking the good domain, thus qualifying for sacred exorcist at 13th level - just too late to get a divine feat at 12th. Again, as a normal 20 level build, its more levels than I will actually have to play with. Cutting it down to 15 removes most of the warrior Skald, and doesn't leave enough feats to get both the prerequisites for prestige classes and all the feats mentioned. I'm not familiar with arcane duellist or Warrior Skald, or the snowflake dance feat. Are they from Frostburn? Also... are you sure the two chr boni to saving throws would stack with eachother?
GoofsterStud 02-04-05, 10:52 AM	Anointed Knight!!!! Why is it that my favorite prestige class is always overlooked? :rolleyes: You also get bonus feats every three levels! If you have a 18 charisma you get a Damage Reduction of 3 by 6th level. (I believe a 16 can choose it too.) Shrug off more damage than those barbarians. My favorite builds are: Paladin 4 Fighter 1 Anointed Knight 8/7 (Taking all 10 is deffinately not bad...extra feat annoint abilities, however with an 18+ cha your usually better off switching to something else.) Fighter 1 (total 2) Fist of Raziel/Occult Slayer (to finish it off) I love the class to much I think... I want everything to have it in it. Then again I love playing charismatic brutes. Talk about synergy! Diving Grace (CHA) Annointed Knight Choices (CHA) Smite (CHA) Divine Might *feat* (CHA) Turning (CHA) ETC...
scrollreader 02-04-05, 03:42 PM	Well. Obviously a flaw or two works wonders. However. Even without flaws: 1 Dodge 1 Mobility 3 Power Attack 6 Sunder 9 Cleave 12 Divine Might 15 Snowflake Wardance Take them as listed, only hold off on the Divine Oracle. Warrior Skald is from Races of Faerun. This doesn't give you the double Cha bonus to AC. Still, I imagine you'll be able to deal with only having your cha bonus to AC once. :P Snowflake Wardance is from Frostburn, and lets you spend bardic music attempt to add your Cha to your attack rolls with a one handed slashing weapon. At 18th level, you can either take Skill Focus: Know(Religion) and go into divine oracle for 19th and 20th levels. Or you can go into any other PrC you want, and just buy the ring. In which case, take divine shield.
scrollreader 02-05-05, 02:30 AM	Add a starmantle cloak for giving the DM extra fits.
JosephKell 02-05-05, 03:09 AM	What Metaregion are you in? [Really ****** Rant]And for crying out loud! How many people read the first post? It is Living Greyhawk! That is a hell of a lot more specific about what is allowed than ANY over request posted on this board to date! If you aren't familiar with the LG Campaign Standards, go look them up online! And then comment. Short List: NO Evil, Exalted Deeds, Forgotten Realms, UA, you can't just buy any magic item you want (infact you can pretty much only buy the weakest items like +1 items).[/Rant] My advice: You seem to be familiar with the Year 4 Campaign Standards. Check your region's Meta Organizations. Go a simple route, and aim a little lower than level 15. You have a retire a character when they get to like level 17 I think, so aiming your character to be the greater thing since sliced bread at level 15 means you are probably going 20+ games of being not what you want your PC to be. P.S.: You went way overboard on your Charisma for a Living Greyhawk Paladin. Paladins need to be able to kill stuff in melee much like Fighters do. But Paladins don't have as many feats as Fighters do, therefore they are more reliant on their natural ability (stats, BAB, HD, and gear). Don't gut your Constitution (and anything less than 14 before racial mods in Living Greyhawk is gutting) for a 17th point of charisma (that is 3 points you could've spent elsewhere). P.P.S.: For those wondering why the bug crawled up my butt, it is because the Living Greyhawk Campaign Standard is on at least 20 websites (including Wizards). Here is the one local to me: Hosted by the Theocracy of the Pale Triad. (http://www.theocracyofthepale.com/downloads/lg_campaign_sourcebook.pdf) The rules are as clear as day.
JosephKell 02-05-05, 04:12 AM	Inspiration just hit me! What about the Shandowbane Inquisitor? Paladin 5/Rogue 1/Shadowbane Inquisitor 10 (until you finish it out). If you are starting this character now, by the time you are 3rd level, hopefully it is March... Uh... What I am about to say goes against EVERY true-blue tank creation process: You might want to start it as a Rogue*, then you don't have to worry about the 4 weeks until the Complete Adventurer is valid (March 1st, 2005). *still can't get clean The only depressing thing about it is that your crowning ability is the Burning Light at level 9 of the Shabowbane Inquisitor. And that is like 2 levels before you would have to retire your PC. You could take Devoted Inquisitor at level 3 (the earliest you can take it since it is a non PHB feat). FYI: Able Learner is a "restricted" feat (it doesn't exist as far as the Triads are concerned). Hmm.. you know my current Paladin of Pholtus (if I can find the character sheet and AR's for her) could become a Shadowbane Inquisitor (according to page 39 of the Campaign Standards v4.1 the Order doesn't exist so it is basically a more zealous Paladin class). Actually this would work out great! Shadowbane Inquisitor leads in terrifically to the Knight Valorous Meta-Org (which is like the only way I know of to get Adamantine weapons and good armor).
Cardinal Teplin 02-05-05, 08:01 PM	nagrom: An interesting build. Again, trying to get divine grace and particularly turn undead without going through paladin is something I was looking for. You rejected holy liberator and cleric for, it looks like, more or less the same reasons I did. I'm not familiar with how warrior of light works though, where is it from? If you're really looking to maximise number of attacks, you might consider getting a buckler rather than a real sheild and going for two weapon fighting. There is a combat style 'lightning mace' in the complete warrior that is entirely built around fighting with light maces, and would work well with your concept. You could also go for the 'oversize two weapon fighting' feat in Complete adventurer, and fight with large light maces. The difference in basic damage is small, but the ability to add your full strength to the damage might well make it worth it. GoofsterStud: Q: Why is it that my favorite prestige class is always overlooked? A: Because you don't tell people where you found it! ;) Looks like a good build, and with paladin/fighter/occultslayer is looks like a similar feel. Not sure what an annoited knight is though... JosephKell: If I only wanted advice from people who were familiar with LG, then I would have posted this on an LG list. While I'm sure the rules are very clearly posted on your website, I don't expect people to have read them. I posted the main limitations in my very first post, and while most people haven't stuck to them, I have perhaps had a better idea of what they were trying to build, and more ideas posted, than if they had been rigerously enforced. I'm still interested in builds that stick to those guidelines, but I'm happy for this to evolve into a more general discussion if that's what people want. I'm from the Onnwal region myself, and am familiar with the local metaorgs. The charisma is high, but for most of the builds posted the extra three points into charisma looks better than just getting more con, since charisma has such a high leverage in these builds. Shadowbane inquisitor sounds like an interesting idea. How do you see it working, and what feats would go with it?
JosephKell 02-05-05, 09:01 PM	Power Attack (only required feat), Weapon Focus, Devoted Inquisitor (Complete Adventurer)... Unless you have a Wisdom of 12 though, you won't be using the Sacred Stealth ability. It requires the sacrifice of a divine spell slot and then it gives you a bonus of +4 (later +8) to Move Silently and Hide for a duration based on your Charisma Modifier and then the level of spell used. I wasn't saying that they shouldn't comment, just that they should look at the parameters of what is allowed. (There is a list of every feat, class, prestige class, and spell allowed--and its source--in the pdf I posted the link to.) Annointed Knight is from the Book of Exalted Deeds. Soldier of Light is from the Deities and Demigods book if I remember correctly.
Cardinal Teplin 02-06-05, 11:40 AM	Scrollreader: Interesting feats: 1 Dodge 1 Mobility 3 Power Attack 6 Sunder 9 Cleave 12 Divine Might 15 Snowflake Wardance Power attack is needed for divine might. But why the others? Dodge and mobility? Sunder and cleave? I went for combat expertise and imrproved trip. I had thought of dodge and mobiltiy, but only so as to qualify for that tactical feat in complete warrior, not for their own sake. Any particular reason for these? JosephKell: Sacred stealth is nice... but the equivalent marshal ability is better. What else makes Shadowbane inquisitor a good build? And why devoted inquisitor as a feat? As a more general point, most of the builds follow the same pattern - get about 7-8 levels of combat ability and then go into a charisma based spellcasting class. Now granted the structure of the prestige classes encourages this, giving much faster spell progression than you'd get from a straight spellcaster, presumably because they have to be so much higher level before they start. But would these builds be better without spellcasting? Would something like Paladin4/marshal3/fighter2/barbarian1/pious templar3/occult slayer2 be better? No spells, but more BAB, fighting and abilities. Or even paladin4/marshal3/knight of the chalice8 Get into serious damage bonuses and demon smiting or paladin4/marshal3/occult slayer 2/ fighter2/Justicar 4 Hope to pick up some good gloves of dex late on in the career, and get into two weapon fighting with all the damage bonuses you can find? Spellcasting is probably more useful in absolute terms, but these builds might be more suitable for a combat-based character. Or am I better off keeping the spells?
JosephKell 02-06-05, 02:23 PM	Devoted Inquisitor allows free multiclassing between Paladin and Rogue. In addition if you perform a Sneak Attack and Smite Evil on the same target (as part of the same action) they have to make a Save or be dazed for a round. Shadowbane Inquisitor also allows free multiclassing between Rogue and Paladin (and itself). Too bad Paladin's don't get Jump as a Class Skill, or else Leap Attack might be a possible thing. Shadowbane Inquisitors also get a Better smite ability than Paladins. Anyone they decide to Smite is target of a Smite similiar to the Paladin's Smite Evil, also by making a Smite (not Smite Evil) on a foe designates them as Corrupt to the Inquisitor. And certain class features get extra bonuses: Merciless Purity (+1 Fort and Ref saves for killing a corrupt foe), Righteous Fervor (+1 to hit and damage a Corrupt foe). There is also Sneak Attack progression. Pierce Shadows allows the use of Turn Undead attempts to generate light around you to see (it just radiates off you). I think Dodge and Mobility are for Snowflake Wardance. Knight of the Chalice is nice and all, but what if you don't find yourself fighting Demons all that often? I am not familiar with your metaregion, and if your region comes under demon assault often than Knight of the Chalice is a no brainer.
allenchan 02-06-05, 02:35 PM	When I played a Cha tank my first level was a cleric, I didnt want to wait that long to get the divine feats from Pally levels (and I only took two levels of pally) and it also allowed me to get access to domain abilities (luck and travel) which are great for any type of build, tank or otherwise.
Belldandy 02-06-05, 03:25 PM	I`ve had this idea myself... (many have) Not sure if it`s already mentioned, but SNOWFLAKE DANCE (from Frostburn) is a feat allowing a bard (say level one, and take extra song) to add CHA to hit with melee weapons for ranks equal to his perform (I`m told you need 6perform to get it!) Paladin 5, Bard 1 is a nice start. Mystic wanderer would be good (but you have to escape the lawful part of the paladin, maybe if you canged to balackguard at one point?) then you get CHA to saves ALL THE TIME (includes touch and flatfooted!) but can wear no armour! Sorcerer is also a nice addition, with arcane strike as all the extra spells (think bonus to hit and D4`s extra damage) can eb nice if you want a damage bunny! Paladin 3, Bard 1, Sorcerer 6, Eldritch knight 10 (or fit spellsword level 2 in there!) Cha to hit, saves, damage, and bonus spells for ARCANE strike!
TigerDawn 02-06-05, 07:23 PM	Personally I like chr fighters as well, I would suggest something like this, I am a sucker for 2-Weapon Fighting: Use: Warmace - Complete Warrior Human: Paladin 1 - Exotic Weapon Prof( Warmace ), 2-Weapon Fighting Paladin 2 - Divine Grace Fighter 1 - Weapon Focus( Heavy Mace ), Imp Oversized 2 Weapon Fighting Fighter 2 - Imp Toughness Hexblade 1 - Hexblade 2 - Arcane Resistance, Imp 2-Weapon Fighting Ranger 1 - Fav Enemy( Something ) Marshall 1 - Motivate Dex Rogue 1 - Sneak attack for flanking, Imp Init Rogue 2 - Evasion Rogue 3 - Sneak attack for flanking Favoured Soul 1 - Power Attack Favoured Soul 2 Sorcerer 1 Sorcerer 2 - Extra Rage Level 16, time to retire The reason I suggest warmace is that it is a d12 onehanded weapon, that does 3d6 if you can find someone to cast enlarge on you regularly. Just my 2 cents...
nagrom 02-07-05, 03:28 AM	nagrom: An interesting build. Again, trying to get divine grace and particularly turn undead without going through paladin is something I was looking for. You rejected holy liberator and cleric for, it looks like, more or less the same reasons I did. I'm not familiar with how warrior of light works though, where is it from? If you're really looking to maximise number of attacks, you might consider getting a buckler rather than a real sheild and going for two weapon fighting. There is a combat style 'lightning mace' in the complete warrior that is entirely built around fighting with light maces, and would work well with your concept. You could also go for the 'oversize two weapon fighting' feat in Complete adventurer, and fight with large light maces. The difference in basic damage is small, but the ability to add your full strength to the damage might well make it worth it. Soldier of Light is from Deities and Demigods so it is 3.0 material as far as I know. I'll need to check out those complete warrior and complete adventurer pointers although we are still using mostly "old school" (3.0) rules in our current campaigns. The only real use for turn undead in warrior type builds is to fuel divine feats, particulary divine might. You can rarely affect undead with such a low "cleric level" so turning attemps can liberally used for divine might at every convenient situation. Wasting a standard action for activating divine might every now and then slows you down but it is worth it, particulary if you have high Cha. The effect and duration increases as you gain Cha as well as the number of uses so its usefullness increases with levels. Eventhough I did had to take weapon focus to qualify for divine champion (the requirements may have changed with new versions, though), I did not want to specialize and thus limit the weapon choises. Taking weapon focus on light mace (choises were either light or heavy mace as Lathander's favourite weapon) and using them in both hands when fighting with two weapons gives a bit more benefit from the otherwise poor feat. I never used shield anyway, it was either reach weapon or TWF. I'd like to point out that the weapon damage dice does not affect the damage total that much in mid and high levels. I do not find it useful to spend feats on exotic weapons or combat styles, especially if you take divine might. Damage modifiers from high str, high cha and magic are so high that the damage dice does not really matter. I did actually use the plain old longspear as the basic reach weapon in my character with some success (lucerne hammer from Arms & Equipment Guide will be my next upgrade though). If it came to close quarter fighting, I'd ditch the spear and use spiked gauntles in both hands. It was really fun to punch out critters with d4 weapon and stupendously high damage modifier :) //nagrom
Cardinal Teplin 02-08-05, 06:20 AM	I`ve had this idea myself... (many have) Sorcerer is also a nice addition, with arcane strike as all the extra spells (think bonus to hit and D4`s extra damage) can be nice if you want a damage bunny! Paladin 3, Bard 1, Sorcerer 6, Eldritch knight 10 (or fit spellsword level 2 in there!) Cha to hit, saves, damage, and bonus spells for ARCANE strike! Hokay - two points. First off - arcane strike. Hot or not? I've never been sure whether or not I'd ever be in a position to want to do a small amount of extra damage, rather than keep the spell. Then again, I've never really tried to play anyone with it. Rather than sorceror, it might be a good combination with the bard/spellsword/sublime chords near the start of this thread, and might be a powerful argument for switching from a divine focus to the build to more arcane spellcasting. But then... divine strike... divine sheild... hm... Anyone think of a way to get turn undead and arcane casting? ... Ah. 5th level arcane spells -> take dismissal -> take sacred exorcist (CD)! All happens too late to actually get the divine feats though... :( Second point - the damage bunny. That's more or less what I've been drifiting towards, given the limitations of a high chr build. Blood of Kord, divine strike, etc. However, it has been suggested on these boards, rather forcefully by some such as snowsavant, that high damage simply isn't an efficient way of dealing with powerful foes at higher levels. In that case, going for the improved trip route in a fairly dedicated way should get me a trip bonus of 20+, allowing me trip almost anything on legs. But leaving me wide open in the damage dealing department. What do people think is the best approach. And what about spells? Is 5th or 6th levels spells worth it, compared to the bundle of boni available if we go for a non-spellcasting class.
Baneslayer 02-08-05, 12:18 PM	LG doesn't allow Feats from Draconomicon or Libris Mortis, does it? Otherwise Dauting Presence (from LM) or Frightening Presence (From Draco) are great tools for Charismatic Fighters.
Cardinal Teplin 02-09-05, 09:39 AM	No, but then more people are reading this thread than just me, and you're definitely thinking along some interesting lines. I can't tell from the text of the feat 'Goad' whether the effect lasts just for one round, or for the rest of the fight. The text also seems to vary depending on which book you look at... If it's just one round, then it's hardly worth it. You can make a single opponent attack only you, but only by giving up full attack. And you can never guarentee a comarade's safety, because you'll never know whether the opponent will make their save until after the comarade has exposed themselves to danger. And now I need to replace it with something for most of my builds, since they rely on a reasonable number of levels for me to afford the intelligence stat boost to get combat expertise. Ba humbug! :pbbbtt:
Cardinal Teplin 02-14-05, 07:53 AM	A fourth build! Have I got it? Is this better or worse than the previous builds? Similar stats: human 28 point buy Str 14 Int 10 Wis 9 Dex 10 Con 12 Chr 17 Alignment Chaotic Good 1) Barbarian - power attack, Skill focus diplomacy 2) Cleric - (war domain gives Weapon focus longsword) 3) Marshal - Divine shield, divine strike (instead of skill focus diplomacy) 4) Marshal 5) Marshal - (Buy int boost +4) 6) Fighter - Combat expertise, Improved trip 7) Fighter - Improved initative 8) Occult Slayer 9) Occult Slayer - Feat - Blood of Kord? Weapon focus? 10) Divine Crusader 11) Contemplative 12) Contemplative 13) Divine Crusader 14) Divine Crusader 15) Divine Crusader so, Divine feats at low level, imp trip at low level, rage instead of smite, and cleric spells instead of paladin spells (when I can get the +2 boost to cast them). Marshal helps with hit, damage and trip attempts. I don't get the chr boost to saves, but switching base classes helps with saves. Less spell casting than previous builds though. Would I be better off forgetting about spellcasting altogether?