3 Epic BBEGs -- Help please [Archive] - Wizards Community

3 Epic BBEGs -- Help please [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Claggart
08-09-05, 11:47 AM My DM is relatively new. He runs a great game and tells wonderful stories, but mechanically he's not that experienced. I offered to help him generate some NPCs for the game that would be PC-quality (meaning at least partially OPed, not just dumb one-trick villans). I was expecting him to have me create a handful of various bad guys for the game, but he wants me to create 3 REALLY BIG bad guys. I don't have any experience with epic stuff, so I thought I would come here.

I have easy access to: PHB, DMG, FRCS, CA, CD, CV, CW. I can probably borrow an epic book (I do have the epic .pdf file from this site, though).

Because of his relative inexperience, I would like to avoid classes that use alternative systems (WuJen, Warlock, Psionics, Artificer, etc...). Also, I want them the be free-standing characters (independant of the army around them), he can fill in that info himself. Animal Companions/Familiars can be included.

I am free to use prestige classes as long as the character stays within the flavor he described.

Character 1
[Evil] Minotaur "Melee" 15/Arcane 20
"Melee" can be anything other than Barbarian in this build.
A tactical fighter. Like all BBEGs, he has others do the dirty work, but when he has to do it himself he prefers to do it up close and personal. Charging and cleaving with his massive (axe, glaive, halberd, greatsword?) is his favorite technique. He uses magic to boost his melee first, then, if he is not absolutely confident of victory he will back off and cast. Very tactical whether in melee or casting.

Character 2
[Evil] Ogre "Barbarian" 15/Arcane 20
I believe this guy is going to be a Slave Lord. The ability to rage is good, but I wouldn't focus too much on that aspect. He could rage at any minute (and his minions know it!), but he doesn't have to do that much anymore. He is a little bit lazy these days. He worked hard to instill fear in everyone and now he lets his reputation and intimidation do the work for him. Obviously, idiots don't get to be 20th level casters, but I see this guy as being erratic and unpredictable.

Character 3
[Evil] Human "Rogue" 15/Arcane 20
A lowly human thief who through hard work and cut-throat aggression worked his way into a position of power. He started out as a thug-for-hire and worked his way up to Assassin (the profession, not necessarily the Prc Class). He dabbled in magic to get better at what he was doing then realized that magic was the true path to power. No mercy, no quarter, no second chances.

So lets see what we can come up with...
Ripclaw
08-09-05, 11:53 AM Here's a truly frightening build:

kobold monk 20/ Paragon 15!!

A kobold going 270ft a round, with a bonus of +25 to attacks and +20 to dmg. Some fast healing , cold/fire resistance and some DR.

Add +15 to all abilities and +10 to all skill checks and you have a tumble kobold of death!!

Or try a kobold monk/pseudonatural creature, but thats just plain nasty!

And if you can somehow get your tumble to easily make a check DC 100, then have him dropped from the sky, so you have a Kobold Nuke from above!!!
PhaedrusXY
08-09-05, 12:02 PM Uhh.... you want 35 class levels on top of powerful races like minotaur and ogre? :uh-huh: Does he actually plan on ever using these characters in a game? If he does, I'd hate to see what the PCs are like. If not, why bother statting them out? Frankly, it is a huge amount of work to make a level 35 character, and I'm not going to do it on a whim for someone else. Maybe someone with more time to waste will, heh. I might post a few ideas for class combos, though.

I would also suggest trimming these NPCs down to a reasonable challenge rating for another reason. In my experience, games tend to be pretty much unmanageable in anything but the lowest epic levels. Furthermore, giving all of these characters a ton of arcane spellcaster levels seems strange to me, but whatever. You might consider using the Gestalt rules. You could keep the CR down a bit, and still get all the abilities you want for them.

So, for the human rogue, I'd go with a Rogue2/Wizard/Daggerspell Mage/Magelord. You can easily get character with the casting of a powerful mage and the skills and lethalness of a high level rogue without going much (if any) over level 20. There is a thread devoted to the Magelord PrC. It is in the Forgotten Realms supplement on ancient Faerun. If you can't use that, just use Rogue/Wiz/DaggerSpellMage/ArcaneTrickster.

For the minotaur: Umm... why not go with clerical magic instead of arcane? I think it makes more sense, and it is alot easier to optimize. Heck, he could just be a single classed cleric. Melee clerics can easily be more powerful than characters with only the standard "warrior" classes.

For the ogre: too bad you don't want to use psionics. I have the perfect build for this guy: Gothmog the Psychotic Psywarrior (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6148406&postcount=24). :D You might want to check it out and/or show it to your DM anyway.
Claggart
08-09-05, 01:24 PM 1. I'm guessing that we will never actually fight them.

2. I will probably do something less "epic" and more stacking two characters together (a 20th level wizard with 15 levels of fighter).

3. I don't need a totally stat-ed out character. Prestige class, feat, and spell suggestions would be greatly appreicated.
Nomad16
08-11-05, 01:10 AM I just recently went through this aswell, as soon as you hit the table with an optimized character of your own design everyone wants you to design there monsters for them. Pull an oldschool trick and sew in a back door.

In anycase i made him a level 40 cleric and a level 30 wizard/lich. filled out all the feats because he is my friend. And i am certain that we will end up fighting all these guys. Unfortunatly since i also DM and i designed the characters i know we are going to have to be level 35ish to think about taking the cleric. In any case (since is obvious at this point i am content just ******* and moaning about my own problems instead of assisting in yours) i like doing some fun with mine. The paragon kobold monk is funny, players are expecting to get their cans kicked in by a ****** off kobold, they will underestimate him from the beginning.
Funny Slaughter
08-11-05, 07:01 AM if you never use NPCs don't bother to write up builds for them.

if you play in epic you just don't need melee classes. a lvl 50 caster can use epic spellcasting and loads of epic feats to propel his normal spells.
shapechange is just more powerful then being a minotaur fighter.

as a DM you should use the advantage of CR versus ECL. you can use interesting monsters as base creatures without paying much.
as a wizard you could take an ethergaunt for example.

the same technique: use templates, especially for melee characters.

for a really epic fight i would invest most work into one or two BBEGs and put some minions on their side that do not need much input but have a few key feats.

in general epic play needs to be adjusted around the players and their builds, especially because of the endless possibilities of epic spell design (and the inherent abuse possibilities)

personally i consider playing a campaign clearly above 20th level a good chunk too much work, especially for the DM but for most players as well.
The rules for epic play are mere guidelines and need a good lot of work to be playable.

take into account that your characters can be mighty heroes at medium levels if you adjust the world accordingly.

gs
Funny

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Claggart 08-09-05, 11:47 AM	My DM is relatively new. He runs a great game and tells wonderful stories, but mechanically he's not that experienced. I offered to help him generate some NPCs for the game that would be PC-quality (meaning at least partially OPed, not just dumb one-trick villans). I was expecting him to have me create a handful of various bad guys for the game, but he wants me to create 3 REALLY BIG bad guys. I don't have any experience with epic stuff, so I thought I would come here. I have easy access to: PHB, DMG, FRCS, CA, CD, CV, CW. I can probably borrow an epic book (I do have the epic .pdf file from this site, though). Because of his relative inexperience, I would like to avoid classes that use alternative systems (WuJen, Warlock, Psionics, Artificer, etc...). Also, I want them the be free-standing characters (independant of the army around them), he can fill in that info himself. Animal Companions/Familiars can be included. I am free to use prestige classes as long as the character stays within the flavor he described. Character 1 [Evil] Minotaur "Melee" 15/Arcane 20 "Melee" can be anything other than Barbarian in this build. A tactical fighter. Like all BBEGs, he has others do the dirty work, but when he has to do it himself he prefers to do it up close and personal. Charging and cleaving with his massive (axe, glaive, halberd, greatsword?) is his favorite technique. He uses magic to boost his melee first, then, if he is not absolutely confident of victory he will back off and cast. Very tactical whether in melee or casting. Character 2 [Evil] Ogre "Barbarian" 15/Arcane 20 I believe this guy is going to be a Slave Lord. The ability to rage is good, but I wouldn't focus too much on that aspect. He could rage at any minute (and his minions know it!), but he doesn't have to do that much anymore. He is a little bit lazy these days. He worked hard to instill fear in everyone and now he lets his reputation and intimidation do the work for him. Obviously, idiots don't get to be 20th level casters, but I see this guy as being erratic and unpredictable. Character 3 [Evil] Human "Rogue" 15/Arcane 20 A lowly human thief who through hard work and cut-throat aggression worked his way into a position of power. He started out as a thug-for-hire and worked his way up to Assassin (the profession, not necessarily the Prc Class). He dabbled in magic to get better at what he was doing then realized that magic was the true path to power. No mercy, no quarter, no second chances. So lets see what we can come up with...
Ripclaw 08-09-05, 11:53 AM	Here's a truly frightening build: kobold monk 20/ Paragon 15!! A kobold going 270ft a round, with a bonus of +25 to attacks and +20 to dmg. Some fast healing , cold/fire resistance and some DR. Add +15 to all abilities and +10 to all skill checks and you have a tumble kobold of death!! Or try a kobold monk/pseudonatural creature, but thats just plain nasty! And if you can somehow get your tumble to easily make a check DC 100, then have him dropped from the sky, so you have a Kobold Nuke from above!!!
PhaedrusXY 08-09-05, 12:02 PM	Uhh.... you want 35 class levels on top of powerful races like minotaur and ogre? :uh-huh: Does he actually plan on ever using these characters in a game? If he does, I'd hate to see what the PCs are like. If not, why bother statting them out? Frankly, it is a huge amount of work to make a level 35 character, and I'm not going to do it on a whim for someone else. Maybe someone with more time to waste will, heh. I might post a few ideas for class combos, though. I would also suggest trimming these NPCs down to a reasonable challenge rating for another reason. In my experience, games tend to be pretty much unmanageable in anything but the lowest epic levels. Furthermore, giving all of these characters a ton of arcane spellcaster levels seems strange to me, but whatever. You might consider using the Gestalt rules. You could keep the CR down a bit, and still get all the abilities you want for them. So, for the human rogue, I'd go with a Rogue2/Wizard/Daggerspell Mage/Magelord. You can easily get character with the casting of a powerful mage and the skills and lethalness of a high level rogue without going much (if any) over level 20. There is a thread devoted to the Magelord PrC. It is in the Forgotten Realms supplement on ancient Faerun. If you can't use that, just use Rogue/Wiz/DaggerSpellMage/ArcaneTrickster. For the minotaur: Umm... why not go with clerical magic instead of arcane? I think it makes more sense, and it is alot easier to optimize. Heck, he could just be a single classed cleric. Melee clerics can easily be more powerful than characters with only the standard "warrior" classes. For the ogre: too bad you don't want to use psionics. I have the perfect build for this guy: Gothmog the Psychotic Psywarrior (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6148406&postcount=24). :D You might want to check it out and/or show it to your DM anyway.
Claggart 08-09-05, 01:24 PM	1. I'm guessing that we will never actually fight them. 2. I will probably do something less "epic" and more stacking two characters together (a 20th level wizard with 15 levels of fighter). 3. I don't need a totally stat-ed out character. Prestige class, feat, and spell suggestions would be greatly appreicated.
Nomad16 08-11-05, 01:10 AM	I just recently went through this aswell, as soon as you hit the table with an optimized character of your own design everyone wants you to design there monsters for them. Pull an oldschool trick and sew in a back door. In anycase i made him a level 40 cleric and a level 30 wizard/lich. filled out all the feats because he is my friend. And i am certain that we will end up fighting all these guys. Unfortunatly since i also DM and i designed the characters i know we are going to have to be level 35ish to think about taking the cleric. In any case (since is obvious at this point i am content just ***** and moaning about my own problems instead of assisting in yours) i like doing some fun with mine. The paragon kobold monk is funny, players are expecting to get their cans kicked in by a **** off kobold, they will underestimate him from the beginning.
Funny Slaughter 08-11-05, 07:01 AM	if you never use NPCs don't bother to write up builds for them. if you play in epic you just don't need melee classes. a lvl 50 caster can use epic spellcasting and loads of epic feats to propel his normal spells. shapechange is just more powerful then being a minotaur fighter. as a DM you should use the advantage of CR versus ECL. you can use interesting monsters as base creatures without paying much. as a wizard you could take an ethergaunt for example. the same technique: use templates, especially for melee characters. for a really epic fight i would invest most work into one or two BBEGs and put some minions on their side that do not need much input but have a few key feats. in general epic play needs to be adjusted around the players and their builds, especially because of the endless possibilities of epic spell design (and the inherent abuse possibilities) personally i consider playing a campaign clearly above 20th level a good chunk too much work, especially for the DM but for most players as well. The rules for epic play are mere guidelines and need a good lot of work to be playable. take into account that your characters can be mighty heroes at medium levels if you adjust the world accordingly. gs Funny