3+ full attacks/round w/o shadow pouncing! [Archive] - Wizards Community

3+ full attacks/round w/o shadow pouncing! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Elephant Jack
12-07-06, 08:05 AM Ahoihoi!

Since multi-pouncers are always cool and trendy I proudly present:
The Eberron-exclusive, non-cross-setting, non-shadow-pouncing, non-ToB multi-pouncer. This guy is actually quite versatile. You only need some way to gain extra move actions (example build uses hustle) and 10 levels of the full-bab 4+Int skills prestige class blade of orion from Dragonmarked (very easy to qualify with nearly every class combination at level 6!).

Sources:
-Complete Psionics (Ardent Class, pg. 5+ and Link Power feat, pg. 62+)
-Dragonmarked (Blade of Orien prestige class, pg. 99+)
-Eberron Campaign Setting (Dragonmark Heir prestige class pg. 73+, related feats)
-System Reference Document

The basic-build:
ardent or psychic warrior 4/dragonmark Heir 1/blade of orien 10

Example Dragonmarked-theme build:
Human ardent 6/Dragonmark Heir 4/blade of orien 10
Base Attack +16

Feats:
Weapon Focus (chosen weapon) [conflict mantle]
Least Dragonmark (Mark of Passage - dimension leap) [racial bonus]
Favored in the House [1st level]
Link Power [3rd level]
*Open Feat* [6th level]
Lesser Dragonmark (Mark of Passage - dimension door) [Dragonmark Heir 1]
Greater Dragonmark (Mark of Passage - teleportation) [Dragonmark Heir 4]
*Open Feat* [12th level]
*Open Feat* [15th level]
*Open Feat* [18th level]

Options for open feat choices:
Action Surge (ECS) - burn 2 AP to gain additional move action.
Various combat related feats:
-Power Attack-related
-Two-Weapon Fighting-tree

Psionics:
Mantles: freedom, conflict, *open*, *open*
Powers of note: hustle

Dragonmark Powers of note:
9/day - dimension leap, 5-foot increments
-->maximum range 10 feet/character level.
Swift Leap (Ex): halve maximum distance, dimension leap as a move action
Shadow Shift (Ex): no longer provoke AoO when using dimension door or dimension leap
Orien's Fury (Ex): whenever you use your swift leap ability to dimension leap as a move action, you can make a full attack at the end of your leap.

Result:
1st combat round
Swift Action: hustle linked with hustle (-6 PP).
Move Action: dimension leap, followed by 1st full attack.
Extra Move Action: dimension leap, followed by 2nd full attack.
Standard Action: Swap for an additional move action, followed by the 3rd full attack (thank you very much, HotSake.
This equals 3 full attacks in the first round of combat; no buffing needed.

2nd combat round
Swift Action: hustle linked with hustle (-6 PP).
Move Action: dimension leap, followed by 1st full attack.
First Extra Move Action: dimension leap, followed by 2nd full attack.
Second Extra Move Action: dimension leap, followed by 3rd full attack.
Standard Action: dimension leap, followed by 4th full attack.

Sure, you'll be burned out really fast, but this build is to cool not to share with you!

Comments, please.

EJ
Midnight_v
12-07-06, 01:32 PM Cool Tech Elephant Jack. People are slowly starting to "hate" on the multipouncer with the "I seen it all before attitude" but yours is new and fresh!

Props.

~M~
HotSake
12-07-06, 03:47 PM You can always trade that standard action for another move action. That would use all your daily leaps in 3 rounds (3, 4, 2) at a cost of 9 PP (don't link the second Hustle).

How many ways can we get more uses of Dimension Leap? I remember some kind of magic item that gives more dragonmark uses, for one thing. Are there any feats/abilities that let you trade action points for dragonmark uses? If so, get someone to cast that spell that gives you a free AP every round.
Elephant Jack
12-07-06, 03:51 PM Thanks, Midnight_v!

I'm quite sure this idea is optimizable; I didn't try to build an arcane version of this (via PHBII's celerity-spells and the focused specialist (conjurer) variant from Complete Mage one should be able to get many, many extra move actions) - this build could be psionics-free.

The prefix is pretty variable, too. I've chosen the Dragonmark Heir because it adds some extra uses of your least dragonmark power (via Lesser and Greater Dragonmark) and saves you one feat over buying those feats with your slots. The whole "dragonmark"-flavor is quite fresh and cool, too.

The biggest problem with this build: It uses campaign-specific material. But: Telflamm isn't on Greyhawk, either.

Feel free to improve the build!
EJ

...
Are you sure about the "action-swapping"? There are indeed ways to get additional uses of the Least Dragonmark power... Dragonmark Prodigy for example adds one use of your least dragonmark power.
One really interesting feat: Dragonmark Mastery... 1 AP to use a least dragonmark power as an immediate action? Sign me in - full attack out of turn order? Yay! <--this is not RAW
ChristopherGroves
12-07-06, 03:54 PM There's a Quicken Dragonmark feat that you should take. It's no pouncer, but it will left you leap as a swift action and you can get into it around 6th level. The 10th level blade ability is nice but this will make you playable at lower levels.
HotSake
12-07-06, 04:38 PM Are you sure about the "action-swapping"?
Absolutely. Did you seriously not know that you can trade a standard action for a move action? It's in the SRD, even:

You can take a move action in place of a standard action. (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/actionsInCombat.html)

There are indeed ways to get additional uses of the Least Dragonmark power... Dragonmark Prodigy for example adds one use of your least dragonmark power.
One really interesting feat: Dragonmark Mastery... 1 AP to use a least dragonmark power as an immediate action? Sign me in - full attack out of turn order? Yay!
Dragonmark Prodigy sounds like a waste, if you have to spend a feat for just one more use. You need the dragonmark reservoirs, or whatever they're called, from the ECS. Dragonmark Mastery may not give you a pounce, depending on the wording of some Blade of Orien abilities. The way you have it written in your post, you only get a pounce when you use Dimension Leap as a move action. Leaping as an immediate wouldn't qualify. I assume DM still consumes a daily use of that dragonmark power, so it won't help with longevity either.

However, if DM does not consume a daily use of the power, and if the wording of Swift Leap is such that it changes the action requirement of the power to "move" no matter what it was (as opposed to explicitly stating from standard to move), then you can basically spend one AP for a pounce as a move action. Then, of course, you make sure to always have that spell up that gives you one bonus AP per round (Heroic something?) and get one free pounce per round.

This is all assuming Dragonmark Mastery doesn't take up your daily uses, which I kinda doubt.
Elephant Jack
12-07-06, 04:46 PM ...
Mh, the Quicken Dragonmark feat is not bad at all! If you use PHBII retraining rules, I'd take it for the first 10 levels or so.

I've found out out two nice things:
1st: If you drop the Link Power feat until level 18 or so, you're able to qualify for the Blade of Orien's 10th level ability at level 15 via: Psychic Warrior or Ardent 4/Dragonmark Heir 1/Blade of Orien 10... this leaves you with 5 more levels for optimization; I recommend some psionics-boosting full-bab class, like the Sanctified Mind (for Wis-synergy w. your primary manifester class).

2nd: By RAW, the Orien's Fury ability allows you to make ranged attacks with your full attack... wazooo! This is probably the first ranged multi-pouncer. A nice way to go: Soulknife 2/Wis-dependant manifester or PrC 7/Soulbow 1/Blade of Orien 10
If you go for Zen Archery (via your 1st level Soulbow bonus feat) you are FULLY WIS dependant...
Wis for PP, Atk, dmg - plus: You've got plenty of feats to work with. Could be interesting.

If you're more interested in a more "classic" approach, you could always aim for some (cross-setting) Peerless Archer or something.

Wow, this gets better with every minute...

EJ

Absolutely. Did you seriously not know that you can trade a standard action for a move action? It's in the SRD, even:
Forget what I said or even dared to ask... shame on me.
...
Well, it seems like you're right. No immediate action full-attacks by raw... I'll edit my post. Thanks for your proof-reading!
HotSake
12-07-06, 05:07 PM No immediate action full attacks, but you still might be able to trade AP for uses as outlined in the second half of my post, and action points are easy to come by. Check the wording of Dragonmark Mastery.

edit: Oh yeah, you might look at getting Wis-to-AC for that Soulbow idea. Two levels of swordsage or one level of monk would do it.
ChristopherGroves
12-07-06, 05:28 PM Or a level of Ninja.
primetimekiller
12-07-06, 07:41 PM forget it it actually WAS tob and shadowpouncing...
i overread that you dind not want that
HotSake
12-07-06, 07:44 PM Except that Jack was trying to avoid Shadow Pounce and work in that Eberron flavor. Anyway, didn't you already post that build in it's own thread? Next time just link to it if you want to show off. Or put it all in an Sblock.
primetimekiller
12-07-06, 07:48 PM didn't mean to show of by the way just you mentioned it...
HOW DOES that spoiler bloch with the button work i also would need it for my sig but i cant make it work somehow
GaffeR
12-07-06, 07:51 PM ["sblock"]TEXT[/"sblock"]

Remove the quotations. You can also add a tittle by writing sblock=TITLE in the first brackets.
primetimekiller
12-07-06, 08:07 PM ah its sblock i alway tried spoiler which makes the underground apper black but the space was the same thanks guys...
Elephant Jack
12-10-06, 05:04 AM C'mon guys, this _so_ deserves a bump!

EJ
Aegeu
12-10-06, 09:25 AM Could Opportunity power be used with hustle to get you full-attack AoOs? It would get around that pesky "no immediate teleports" rule.
Daeger
12-10-06, 09:27 AM Wow, a multi-pounce build that doesn't break every single balance mechanic in D&D.

From Eberron no less. My respect for that campaign setting grows day by day.
Hanniball
12-10-06, 06:57 PM I've never read Dragonmarked; does Blade of 0rien have manifester progression?

Either way, this build is simple, effective and an excellent use limited material to outrageous ends. Kudos EJ!
HotSake
12-11-06, 08:27 AM Could Opportunity power be used with hustle to get you full-attack AoOs? It would get around that pesky "no immediate teleports" rule.
Sadly, it only lets you use a touch power as an AoO. Also, Hustle explicitly states, "You cannot manifest this power when it isn't your turn."
ChristopherGroves
12-11-06, 08:42 AM I've never read Dragonmarked; does Blade of 0rien have manifester progression?

Either way, this build is simple, effective and an excellent use limited material to outrageous ends. Kudos EJ!

Blade of Orien is a full BAB with dragonmark enhancing abilities (su, ex).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Elephant Jack 12-07-06, 08:05 AM	Ahoihoi! Since multi-pouncers are always cool and trendy I proudly present: The Eberron-exclusive, non-cross-setting, non-shadow-pouncing, non-ToB multi-pouncer. This guy is actually quite versatile. You only need some way to gain extra move actions (example build uses hustle) and 10 levels of the full-bab 4+Int skills prestige class blade of orion from Dragonmarked (very easy to qualify with nearly every class combination at level 6!). Sources: -Complete Psionics (Ardent Class, pg. 5+ and Link Power feat, pg. 62+) -Dragonmarked (Blade of Orien prestige class, pg. 99+) -Eberron Campaign Setting (Dragonmark Heir prestige class pg. 73+, related feats) -System Reference Document The basic-build: ardent or psychic warrior 4/dragonmark Heir 1/blade of orien 10 Example Dragonmarked-theme build: Human ardent 6/Dragonmark Heir 4/blade of orien 10 Base Attack +16 Feats: Weapon Focus (chosen weapon) [conflict mantle] Least Dragonmark (Mark of Passage - dimension leap) [racial bonus] Favored in the House [1st level] Link Power [3rd level] Open Feat [6th level] Lesser Dragonmark (Mark of Passage - dimension door) [Dragonmark Heir 1] Greater Dragonmark (Mark of Passage - teleportation) [Dragonmark Heir 4] Open Feat [12th level] Open Feat [15th level] Open Feat [18th level] Options for open feat choices: Action Surge (ECS) - burn 2 AP to gain additional move action. Various combat related feats: -Power Attack-related -Two-Weapon Fighting-tree Psionics: Mantles: freedom, conflict, open, open Powers of note: hustle Dragonmark Powers of note: 9/day - dimension leap, 5-foot increments -->maximum range 10 feet/character level. Swift Leap (Ex): halve maximum distance, dimension leap as a move action Shadow Shift (Ex): no longer provoke AoO when using dimension door or dimension leap Orien's Fury (Ex): whenever you use your swift leap ability to dimension leap as a move action, you can make a full attack at the end of your leap. Result: 1st combat round Swift Action: hustle linked with hustle (-6 PP). Move Action: dimension leap, followed by 1st full attack. Extra Move Action: dimension leap, followed by 2nd full attack. Standard Action: Swap for an additional move action, followed by the 3rd full attack (thank you very much, HotSake. This equals 3 full attacks in the first round of combat; no buffing needed. 2nd combat round Swift Action: hustle linked with hustle (-6 PP). Move Action: dimension leap, followed by 1st full attack. First Extra Move Action: dimension leap, followed by 2nd full attack. Second Extra Move Action: dimension leap, followed by 3rd full attack. Standard Action: dimension leap, followed by 4th full attack. Sure, you'll be burned out really fast, but this build is to cool not to share with you! Comments, please. EJ
Midnight_v 12-07-06, 01:32 PM	Cool Tech Elephant Jack. People are slowly starting to "hate" on the multipouncer with the "I seen it all before attitude" but yours is new and fresh! Props. ~M~
HotSake 12-07-06, 03:47 PM	You can always trade that standard action for another move action. That would use all your daily leaps in 3 rounds (3, 4, 2) at a cost of 9 PP (don't link the second Hustle). How many ways can we get more uses of Dimension Leap? I remember some kind of magic item that gives more dragonmark uses, for one thing. Are there any feats/abilities that let you trade action points for dragonmark uses? If so, get someone to cast that spell that gives you a free AP every round.
Elephant Jack 12-07-06, 03:51 PM	Thanks, Midnight_v! I'm quite sure this idea is optimizable; I didn't try to build an arcane version of this (via PHBII's celerity-spells and the focused specialist (conjurer) variant from Complete Mage one should be able to get many, many extra move actions) - this build could be psionics-free. The prefix is pretty variable, too. I've chosen the Dragonmark Heir because it adds some extra uses of your least dragonmark power (via Lesser and Greater Dragonmark) and saves you one feat over buying those feats with your slots. The whole "dragonmark"-flavor is quite fresh and cool, too. The biggest problem with this build: It uses campaign-specific material. But: Telflamm isn't on Greyhawk, either. Feel free to improve the build! EJ ... Are you sure about the "action-swapping"? There are indeed ways to get additional uses of the Least Dragonmark power... Dragonmark Prodigy for example adds one use of your least dragonmark power. One really interesting feat: Dragonmark Mastery... 1 AP to use a least dragonmark power as an immediate action? Sign me in - full attack out of turn order? Yay! <--this is not RAW
ChristopherGroves 12-07-06, 03:54 PM	There's a Quicken Dragonmark feat that you should take. It's no pouncer, but it will left you leap as a swift action and you can get into it around 6th level. The 10th level blade ability is nice but this will make you playable at lower levels.
HotSake 12-07-06, 04:38 PM	Are you sure about the "action-swapping"? Absolutely. Did you seriously not know that you can trade a standard action for a move action? It's in the SRD, even: You can take a move action in place of a standard action. (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/actionsInCombat.html) There are indeed ways to get additional uses of the Least Dragonmark power... Dragonmark Prodigy for example adds one use of your least dragonmark power. One really interesting feat: Dragonmark Mastery... 1 AP to use a least dragonmark power as an immediate action? Sign me in - full attack out of turn order? Yay! Dragonmark Prodigy sounds like a waste, if you have to spend a feat for just one more use. You need the dragonmark reservoirs, or whatever they're called, from the ECS. Dragonmark Mastery may not give you a pounce, depending on the wording of some Blade of Orien abilities. The way you have it written in your post, you only get a pounce when you use Dimension Leap as a move action. Leaping as an immediate wouldn't qualify. I assume DM still consumes a daily use of that dragonmark power, so it won't help with longevity either. However, if DM does not consume a daily use of the power, and if the wording of Swift Leap is such that it changes the action requirement of the power to "move" no matter what it was (as opposed to explicitly stating from standard to move), then you can basically spend one AP for a pounce as a move action. Then, of course, you make sure to always have that spell up that gives you one bonus AP per round (Heroic something?) and get one free pounce per round. This is all assuming Dragonmark Mastery doesn't take up your daily uses, which I kinda doubt.
Elephant Jack 12-07-06, 04:46 PM	... Mh, the Quicken Dragonmark feat is not bad at all! If you use PHBII retraining rules, I'd take it for the first 10 levels or so. I've found out out two nice things: 1st: If you drop the Link Power feat until level 18 or so, you're able to qualify for the Blade of Orien's 10th level ability at level 15 via: Psychic Warrior or Ardent 4/Dragonmark Heir 1/Blade of Orien 10... this leaves you with 5 more levels for optimization; I recommend some psionics-boosting full-bab class, like the Sanctified Mind (for Wis-synergy w. your primary manifester class). 2nd: By RAW, the Orien's Fury ability allows you to make ranged attacks with your full attack... wazooo! This is probably the first ranged multi-pouncer. A nice way to go: Soulknife 2/Wis-dependant manifester or PrC 7/Soulbow 1/Blade of Orien 10 If you go for Zen Archery (via your 1st level Soulbow bonus feat) you are FULLY WIS dependant... Wis for PP, Atk, dmg - plus: You've got plenty of feats to work with. Could be interesting. If you're more interested in a more "classic" approach, you could always aim for some (cross-setting) Peerless Archer or something. Wow, this gets better with every minute... EJ Absolutely. Did you seriously not know that you can trade a standard action for a move action? It's in the SRD, even: Forget what I said or even dared to ask... shame on me. ... Well, it seems like you're right. No immediate action full-attacks by raw... I'll edit my post. Thanks for your proof-reading!
HotSake 12-07-06, 05:07 PM	No immediate action full attacks, but you still might be able to trade AP for uses as outlined in the second half of my post, and action points are easy to come by. Check the wording of Dragonmark Mastery. edit: Oh yeah, you might look at getting Wis-to-AC for that Soulbow idea. Two levels of swordsage or one level of monk would do it.
ChristopherGroves 12-07-06, 05:28 PM	Or a level of Ninja.
primetimekiller 12-07-06, 07:41 PM	forget it it actually WAS tob and shadowpouncing... i overread that you dind not want that
HotSake 12-07-06, 07:44 PM	Except that Jack was trying to avoid Shadow Pounce and work in that Eberron flavor. Anyway, didn't you already post that build in it's own thread? Next time just link to it if you want to show off. Or put it all in an Sblock.
primetimekiller 12-07-06, 07:48 PM	didn't mean to show of by the way just you mentioned it... HOW DOES that spoiler bloch with the button work i also would need it for my sig but i cant make it work somehow
GaffeR 12-07-06, 07:51 PM	["sblock"]TEXT[/"sblock"] Remove the quotations. You can also add a tittle by writing sblock=TITLE in the first brackets.
primetimekiller 12-07-06, 08:07 PM	ah its sblock i alway tried spoiler which makes the underground apper black but the space was the same thanks guys...
Elephant Jack 12-10-06, 05:04 AM	C'mon guys, this _so_ deserves a bump! EJ
Aegeu 12-10-06, 09:25 AM	Could Opportunity power be used with hustle to get you full-attack AoOs? It would get around that pesky "no immediate teleports" rule.
Daeger 12-10-06, 09:27 AM	Wow, a multi-pounce build that doesn't break every single balance mechanic in D&D. From Eberron no less. My respect for that campaign setting grows day by day.
Hanniball 12-10-06, 06:57 PM	I've never read Dragonmarked; does Blade of 0rien have manifester progression? Either way, this build is simple, effective and an excellent use limited material to outrageous ends. Kudos EJ!
HotSake 12-11-06, 08:27 AM	Could Opportunity power be used with hustle to get you full-attack AoOs? It would get around that pesky "no immediate teleports" rule. Sadly, it only lets you use a touch power as an AoO. Also, Hustle explicitly states, "You cannot manifest this power when it isn't your turn."
ChristopherGroves 12-11-06, 08:42 AM	I've never read Dragonmarked; does Blade of 0rien have manifester progression? Either way, this build is simple, effective and an excellent use limited material to outrageous ends. Kudos EJ! Blade of Orien is a full BAB with dragonmark enhancing abilities (su, ex).