3 Offerings for the gods [Archive] - Wizards Community

3 Offerings for the gods [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Temmogen
12-05-06, 08:58 PM Here's the situation...
A friend and I will be entering a game of the Shackled City adventure path. We are allowed Core books plus Completes, and at least Races of Stone, Wild, and Destiny. We will be using the Elite array found in the DMG for abilities. So far this is what I have come up with. We would like to maintain the concept of a pair of dwarf brothers, please keep that in mind.
I offer 3 builds, please tweak if possible.
These are presented in the following format: Level/Class/Feat(s) chosen

Dwarven Fighter
Stats before Racial mods
Str 15 Dex 8 Con 14 Int 13 Wis 10 Cha 12

1 Fighter Racial Sub Level/Dwarven Armor Prof.
2 Fighter Phalanx Fighting
3 Fighter Tunnel Fighting
4 +1 Str/Heavy Armor Optimazation
5 Fighter
6 Fighter Battle hardened/Stoneback
7 Fighter
8 Fighter Racial Sub level/+1 Dex/Heavy Armor Expertise
9 Fighter Greater Heavy Armor Optimazation
10 Fighter Weapon Specialization (Dwarven Waraxe)
11 Fighter
12 Fighter +1 Dex/Weapon Focus (Crossbow)/Point Blank Shot
13 Fighter
14 Fighter Greater Weapon Focus (Dwarven Waraxe)
15 Cleave
16 Fighter +1 Str/Grtr Wpn Spec (Dwarf Waraxe)
17 Fighter
18 Fighter Power Crit/Endurance
19 Fighter
20 Fighter +1 Str/Improved Toughness

Dwarf Rogue
Stats Before Racial Mods
Str 14 Dex 15 Con 8 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 13

1 Rogue1 Point Blank Shot
2 Fighter1 Racial Sub level
3 Ranger1 Alertness
4 Rogue2 +1 Dex
5 Ranger2 Combat Style: Archery
6 Rogue3 Blind Fight
7 Ranger3
8 Horizon Walker1 Terrain Mastery: Underground
9 Horizon Walker2 Precise Shot/Terrain Mastery: Desert
10 Horizon Walker3 Terrain mastery: Mountains
11 Dungeon Delver1
12 Dungeon Delver2 +1 Int/Quick Reconnoiter
13 Dungeon Delver3
14 Dungeon Delver4
15 Dungeon Delver5 Tactile Trapsmith
16 Dungeon Delver6 +1 Dex
17 Dungeon Delver7
18 Dungeon Delver8 Ranged Disarm
19 Dungeon Delver9
20 Dungeon Delver10 +1 Dex

Dwarf Wizard Build (One brother fire/One brother Ice)
Stats before Racial mods
Str 10 Dex 14 Con 13 Int 15 Wis 12 Cha 8

1 Wizard1 Collegiate Wizard
2 Wizard2
3 Wizard3 Heavy Armor Prof.
4 Wizard4 +1 Int
5 Wizard5 Maximize Spell
6 Runesmith1 Explosive Spell OR Lord of the Uttercold
7 Runesmith2
8 Runesmith3 +1 Int
9 Runesmith4 Energy Substitution
10 Runesmith5
11 Elemental Savant1
12 Elemental Savant2 +1 Int/Energy Admixture
13 Elemental Savant3
14 Elemental Savant4
15 Elemental Savant5 Craft Wonderous Item
16 Elemental Savant6 +1 Int
17 Elemental Savant 7
18 Elemental Savant8 Twin Spell
19 Elemental Savant9
20 Elemental Savant10 +1 Int

Thanks for any consideration.
Temmogen
12-06-06, 08:59 AM Anyone, Anyone...

Bueller...Bueller..Frye...Frye...

:bump:
DaveTheMagicWeasel
12-06-06, 09:43 AM 1. Fighter

Find yourself a Prestige class, some sort of Deepwarden / Dwarven Defender build would be better. Take Steadfast Determination (PHB2) as well.

I'd also drop most of the Weapon Spec tree since there are better options out there, drop Power Critical (especially since by the level you're taking it you'll be fighting an ever greater number of crit-immune foes), and then drop PBS and WF (crossbow), because, quite frankly, they're pointless.

If you really want a ranged option use a bow to make use of your Strength, and take Precise Shot as well. But I'd recommend you just drop the idea, you'd need to spend loads of gold to keep a ranged weapon magical enough to be worth using, so I think you'd be better off spending that cash on mobility/flight magic items (which get rid of the need to bust out a crossbow most of the time).

And put Power Attack in there. No fighter should be without it.

Finally, put the 8 in your Charisma, you have no use for it, and at least with some Dex you can get a couple of points of AC when in full plate and help out your Reflex and Initiative a bit.

2. Rogue

I've always thought Dungeon Delver is a weak class myself, especially when you have to pay for Alertness to get into it. Ranged Disarm is a poor choice, and by the high levels you'll likely be fighting more and more of the opponents will be large monster types using natural weapons.

What level are you starting at? Because you're getting Precise Shot very late on, and it will cause you problems at low levels.

As a Rogue you'll want a good Int, so I'd drop Tactile Trapsmith as well. Get a +20 competence item for Disable Device and you'll be more than fine. Or just use the classic "wizard summons small animal and sends it down the corridor" gambit.

And Con 10 is far too low, you're asking to get killed with that.

Sorry to sound harsh, but I think I'd just take that one back to the drawing board and start again.

3. Wizard

Elemental Savant is weak. Not only does it lose caster levels, it changes all your spells to your chosen energy type. Sooner or later you'll find someone immune/resistant to that energy and you'll be screwed. Basically, it takes a weak option (Evocation) and then hoses it.

If you want to blast I'd actually suggest Warmage instead. Especially with 2 casters, since you can take a utility wizard as the other one to cover for the Warmage's deficiencies and the Warmage automatically has access to lots of different energy forms.

4. Party Composition

Who's doing the healing?

I suppose the Rogue with UMD and some Cure Light Wands can fill the breach a bit, but its a massive hole in the party's abilities, and even in a best case scenario its gonna cost you a lot of money.
El_Machinae
12-06-06, 10:01 AM Despite the example in the book, I don't believe you're allowed to take (Heavy) Armour Proficiency just like that.

I recommend taking Fighter 1 (though I waffle at the racial sub) if you're going into RuneSmith.

I agree that staying with fighter (after a decent level) is a bit of a waste. Pious Templer, Kensai, etc. all leap out as better classes to take.
Temmogen
12-06-06, 10:04 AM All characters start at level 1,
you dont sound harsh, this is what we're looking for. we want to max out these characters.
We dont actually know what the party composition is yet, so we may end up the clerics...

Thanks, I re-work them with your suggestions.
Vintus
12-07-06, 01:15 PM By the Gods! Sacrificing caster levels! you, you, you FIEND!
Breaking not just one, but 2 commandments of Optimization!
Heresy I Say! Heresy!:P
PhoenixInferno
12-07-06, 01:22 PM If you can't use PHBII, I also suggest you kill the Weapon Specialization tree altogether. If, on the other hand, you CAN, I'd drop Greater Weapon Focus + Greater Weapon Specialization for Melee Weapon Mastery + Slashing Flurry.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Temmogen 12-05-06, 08:58 PM	Here's the situation... A friend and I will be entering a game of the Shackled City adventure path. We are allowed Core books plus Completes, and at least Races of Stone, Wild, and Destiny. We will be using the Elite array found in the DMG for abilities. So far this is what I have come up with. We would like to maintain the concept of a pair of dwarf brothers, please keep that in mind. I offer 3 builds, please tweak if possible. These are presented in the following format: Level/Class/Feat(s) chosen Dwarven Fighter Stats before Racial mods Str 15 Dex 8 Con 14 Int 13 Wis 10 Cha 12 1 Fighter Racial Sub Level/Dwarven Armor Prof. 2 Fighter Phalanx Fighting 3 Fighter Tunnel Fighting 4 +1 Str/Heavy Armor Optimazation 5 Fighter 6 Fighter Battle hardened/Stoneback 7 Fighter 8 Fighter Racial Sub level/+1 Dex/Heavy Armor Expertise 9 Fighter Greater Heavy Armor Optimazation 10 Fighter Weapon Specialization (Dwarven Waraxe) 11 Fighter 12 Fighter +1 Dex/Weapon Focus (Crossbow)/Point Blank Shot 13 Fighter 14 Fighter Greater Weapon Focus (Dwarven Waraxe) 15 Cleave 16 Fighter +1 Str/Grtr Wpn Spec (Dwarf Waraxe) 17 Fighter 18 Fighter Power Crit/Endurance 19 Fighter 20 Fighter +1 Str/Improved Toughness Dwarf Rogue Stats Before Racial Mods Str 14 Dex 15 Con 8 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 13 1 Rogue1 Point Blank Shot 2 Fighter1 Racial Sub level 3 Ranger1 Alertness 4 Rogue2 +1 Dex 5 Ranger2 Combat Style: Archery 6 Rogue3 Blind Fight 7 Ranger3 8 Horizon Walker1 Terrain Mastery: Underground 9 Horizon Walker2 Precise Shot/Terrain Mastery: Desert 10 Horizon Walker3 Terrain mastery: Mountains 11 Dungeon Delver1 12 Dungeon Delver2 +1 Int/Quick Reconnoiter 13 Dungeon Delver3 14 Dungeon Delver4 15 Dungeon Delver5 Tactile Trapsmith 16 Dungeon Delver6 +1 Dex 17 Dungeon Delver7 18 Dungeon Delver8 Ranged Disarm 19 Dungeon Delver9 20 Dungeon Delver10 +1 Dex Dwarf Wizard Build (One brother fire/One brother Ice) Stats before Racial mods Str 10 Dex 14 Con 13 Int 15 Wis 12 Cha 8 1 Wizard1 Collegiate Wizard 2 Wizard2 3 Wizard3 Heavy Armor Prof. 4 Wizard4 +1 Int 5 Wizard5 Maximize Spell 6 Runesmith1 Explosive Spell OR Lord of the Uttercold 7 Runesmith2 8 Runesmith3 +1 Int 9 Runesmith4 Energy Substitution 10 Runesmith5 11 Elemental Savant1 12 Elemental Savant2 +1 Int/Energy Admixture 13 Elemental Savant3 14 Elemental Savant4 15 Elemental Savant5 Craft Wonderous Item 16 Elemental Savant6 +1 Int 17 Elemental Savant 7 18 Elemental Savant8 Twin Spell 19 Elemental Savant9 20 Elemental Savant10 +1 Int Thanks for any consideration.
Temmogen 12-06-06, 08:59 AM	Anyone, Anyone... Bueller...Bueller..Frye...Frye... :bump:
DaveTheMagicWeasel 12-06-06, 09:43 AM	1. Fighter Find yourself a Prestige class, some sort of Deepwarden / Dwarven Defender build would be better. Take Steadfast Determination (PHB2) as well. I'd also drop most of the Weapon Spec tree since there are better options out there, drop Power Critical (especially since by the level you're taking it you'll be fighting an ever greater number of crit-immune foes), and then drop PBS and WF (crossbow), because, quite frankly, they're pointless. If you really want a ranged option use a bow to make use of your Strength, and take Precise Shot as well. But I'd recommend you just drop the idea, you'd need to spend loads of gold to keep a ranged weapon magical enough to be worth using, so I think you'd be better off spending that cash on mobility/flight magic items (which get rid of the need to bust out a crossbow most of the time). And put Power Attack in there. No fighter should be without it. Finally, put the 8 in your Charisma, you have no use for it, and at least with some Dex you can get a couple of points of AC when in full plate and help out your Reflex and Initiative a bit. 2. Rogue I've always thought Dungeon Delver is a weak class myself, especially when you have to pay for Alertness to get into it. Ranged Disarm is a poor choice, and by the high levels you'll likely be fighting more and more of the opponents will be large monster types using natural weapons. What level are you starting at? Because you're getting Precise Shot very late on, and it will cause you problems at low levels. As a Rogue you'll want a good Int, so I'd drop Tactile Trapsmith as well. Get a +20 competence item for Disable Device and you'll be more than fine. Or just use the classic "wizard summons small animal and sends it down the corridor" gambit. And Con 10 is far too low, you're asking to get killed with that. Sorry to sound harsh, but I think I'd just take that one back to the drawing board and start again. 3. Wizard Elemental Savant is weak. Not only does it lose caster levels, it changes all your spells to your chosen energy type. Sooner or later you'll find someone immune/resistant to that energy and you'll be screwed. Basically, it takes a weak option (Evocation) and then hoses it. If you want to blast I'd actually suggest Warmage instead. Especially with 2 casters, since you can take a utility wizard as the other one to cover for the Warmage's deficiencies and the Warmage automatically has access to lots of different energy forms. 4. Party Composition Who's doing the healing? I suppose the Rogue with UMD and some Cure Light Wands can fill the breach a bit, but its a massive hole in the party's abilities, and even in a best case scenario its gonna cost you a lot of money.
El_Machinae 12-06-06, 10:01 AM	Despite the example in the book, I don't believe you're allowed to take (Heavy) Armour Proficiency just like that. I recommend taking Fighter 1 (though I waffle at the racial sub) if you're going into RuneSmith. I agree that staying with fighter (after a decent level) is a bit of a waste. Pious Templer, Kensai, etc. all leap out as better classes to take.
Temmogen 12-06-06, 10:04 AM	All characters start at level 1, you dont sound harsh, this is what we're looking for. we want to max out these characters. We dont actually know what the party composition is yet, so we may end up the clerics... Thanks, I re-work them with your suggestions.
Vintus 12-07-06, 01:15 PM	By the Gods! Sacrificing caster levels! you, you, you FIEND! Breaking not just one, but 2 commandments of Optimization! Heresy I Say! Heresy!:P
PhoenixInferno 12-07-06, 01:22 PM	If you can't use PHBII, I also suggest you kill the Weapon Specialization tree altogether. If, on the other hand, you CAN, I'd drop Greater Weapon Focus + Greater Weapon Specialization for Melee Weapon Mastery + Slashing Flurry.