[3.0 core] Maximising criticals with a heavy pick [Archive] - Wizards Community

[3.0 core] Maximising criticals with a heavy pick [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Trydan
02-10-05, 12:28 PM I've always liked the idea of the heavy pick (1d6, 20/x4), because it makes for good dwarven role-playing, and the gratification of getting a critical is so much fun. What I'd like to do now, is to try and optimise my chances of getting one and maximise the effects.

From what I can see, to improve my to-hit and to increase the damage, maximmum strength is a must. Assuming a 29-point build, I'd put an 18 into Strength (+4 to hit, and +4 damage). If I can get an easy hit, then Power Attack seems like a good idea. And, Improved Critical would also be good. Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialisation would also be useful.

However, I was also thinking about the use of spells to attain proficiency. Would it be useful to be able to cast Bull's Strength on myself? What about True Strike (which seems good with Power Attack, but may not be worth it, as one is losing a round to cast it - and with a chance of failure!). Additionally, True Strike is VERBAL only, so I could cast it in armour.

Anyway, here is a sample build.

Race: Dwarf
Stats: Str=18, Dex=12, Con=14, Int=8, Wis=8, Cha=12 (after racial mods)
1: Bbn.1 - Power.Attack, Rage, Fast movt.
2: Bbn.1/Ftr.1 - Cleave
3: Bbn.1/Ftr.1/Sor.1 - Wpn.Focus (Hvy.Pick) (spells True Strike)
4: Bbn.1/Ftr.2/Sor.1 - Impr.Init, Str+1 (->19)
5: Bbn.1/Ftr.3/Sor.1 -
6: Bbn.1/Ftr.4/Sor.1 - Wpn.Spec, (plus another feat?)
7: Bbn.2/Ftr.4/Sor.1 -
8: Bbn.2/Ftr.4/Sor.2 -
9: Bbn.3/Ftr.4/Sor.2 - Impr.Crit, Str+1 (->20)

For higher levels (I expect the campaign to terminate about level 12 or so), I'd pick up a couple more levels of Sorcerer to get Bull's Strength.

Alternatively, I could simply ignore the spell-casting, and go Bbn.X/Ftr.4?

Any suggestions... I'm rather at a loss here. Thanks!

PS: We're using 3.0 Ed, core classes/races only. We have a 30-point build.
rilem
02-10-05, 01:33 PM Lose the sorceror level — it's not worth it. You'd be better off with taking some cleric/templar/paladin levels if you're looking for Bull's Strength. True Strike is in a 3.0 domain, but it's Elf, I think. In 3.5, Fate is a good option.

Maximizing Critical threat ranges is not a spectacular idea in the long run, b/c eventually you wind up playing against a large number of foes who are either immune to crits or have such a high AC that only a very high attack roll will hit anyway — thus wasting much of your Critical threat range.

But anyway, you're off to a good start on Improved Critical, obviously. Normally WF and Weapon Specialization are poor choices, since they tie you to a single weapon instead of promoting flexibility. But you're already specializing with Imp. Crit, so you might as well make the most of it.

Beyond that, you need a combination of Weapon Master (S&F or Oriental Adventures) and, if possible, Disciple of Dispater from Book of Vile Darkness. Both give expanded critical ranges. They also have a lot of feat requirements, meaning that your build becomes pretty locked-in.

You'll need to beef up that intelligence, and knock down your strength — 18 is way too expensive in point-buy.
ksbsnowowl
02-10-05, 02:21 PM 3.0 Core only?

I'd say your best bet is to wield a keen heavy pick with both hands, have the feats Power Attack, Imp. Crit, Weap Foc, Weap Spec, and pick up at least one level of Paladin so as to get the ability to cast Bless Weapon from a wand.

One or two levels of Wiz or Sorc can be good for a core only melee machine. Wiz synergizes better though, because the increased intelligence gives you more skill points, and helps you qualify for Expertise and the subsequent tactical feats (Imp Disarm being the best for this type of character, IMO). But Sorcerer lends itself to better synergy if you pick up Paladin levels.

I'd progress like this:

1. Fighter 1
2. Fighter 2
3. Fighter 2/Wizard (Diviner) 1
4. Fighter 2/Wizard 1/Paladin1

After that, continue to Paladin 4 if you want spells, or head back to Fighter, since one level of Paladin allows you to cast Paladin spells from wands.

A great tactic to use at this point is to cast True Strike and disarm the enemy wizard unarmed. The TS spell applies to your opposed attack roll to disarm him, and when you are successful (given your good BAB, high strength, and +20 insight bonus), you can then use the wand/sword you removed from the BBEG, and kick his butt with his own weapon.

The Lawful alignment required of paladin lends itself toward Dwarven Defender in the later levels, if you were so inclined. A decent over-all build would be Fighter 4/Paladin 4/Wizard (or Sorcerer) 2/Dwarven Defender 10; BAB +19, Fort +13, Ref +5, Will +8. The reflex is low, but you'll also be getting Cha to saves, even if you only take one paladin level.
Trydan
02-11-05, 12:30 PM Hmm... some interesting ideas. Many thanks for the replies. I'll try and revise the build this weekend. Thanks again.
rilem
02-11-05, 12:45 PM Apologies, I missed Core-only. Usually I read more closely than that.

I'll stand by my abilities comments, however. Lower the strength for now.

Anyway, the DMG, I believe, has a variant of Dwarf that gives Dex penalty instead of Cha. Still core, and allows for even better synergy with KSB's Paladin suggestion.
Resdayn
02-11-05, 02:52 PM I'd say your best bet is to wield a keen heavy pick with both hands, have the feats Power Attack, Imp. Crit, Weap Foc, Weap Spec, and pick up at least one level of Paladin so as to get the ability to cast Bless Weapon from a wand.

Keen is a must-have in imp. critical builds but I don't think it can be applied to a heavy pick since it is not a slashing weapon.
It's a pity that piercing and bludgeoning weapons don't get a compensation for that missing keen enchantment.

Besides: a heavy pick isn't really a piercing weapon either - sounds more like impaling to me ;)
Barmoz
02-11-05, 02:59 PM I'm an idiot, just re-read the title of the thread - was pointing out the non stacking of imp crit and keen.
Griff_Goodbeard
02-11-05, 03:11 PM Originally posted by Trydan
PS: We're using 3.0 Ed, core classes/races only. We have a 30-point build.

I guess they stack for him
rilem
02-11-05, 03:18 PM Keen is a must-have in imp. critical builds but I don't think it can be applied to a heavy pick since it is not a slashing weapon....

The 3.0 DMG errata allowed keen to be put on Piercing Weapons.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Trydan 02-10-05, 12:28 PM	I've always liked the idea of the heavy pick (1d6, 20/x4), because it makes for good dwarven role-playing, and the gratification of getting a critical is so much fun. What I'd like to do now, is to try and optimise my chances of getting one and maximise the effects. From what I can see, to improve my to-hit and to increase the damage, maximmum strength is a must. Assuming a 29-point build, I'd put an 18 into Strength (+4 to hit, and +4 damage). If I can get an easy hit, then Power Attack seems like a good idea. And, Improved Critical would also be good. Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialisation would also be useful. However, I was also thinking about the use of spells to attain proficiency. Would it be useful to be able to cast Bull's Strength on myself? What about True Strike (which seems good with Power Attack, but may not be worth it, as one is losing a round to cast it - and with a chance of failure!). Additionally, True Strike is VERBAL only, so I could cast it in armour. Anyway, here is a sample build. Race: Dwarf Stats: Str=18, Dex=12, Con=14, Int=8, Wis=8, Cha=12 (after racial mods) 1: Bbn.1 - Power.Attack, Rage, Fast movt. 2: Bbn.1/Ftr.1 - Cleave 3: Bbn.1/Ftr.1/Sor.1 - Wpn.Focus (Hvy.Pick) (spells True Strike) 4: Bbn.1/Ftr.2/Sor.1 - Impr.Init, Str+1 (->19) 5: Bbn.1/Ftr.3/Sor.1 - 6: Bbn.1/Ftr.4/Sor.1 - Wpn.Spec, (plus another feat?) 7: Bbn.2/Ftr.4/Sor.1 - 8: Bbn.2/Ftr.4/Sor.2 - 9: Bbn.3/Ftr.4/Sor.2 - Impr.Crit, Str+1 (->20) For higher levels (I expect the campaign to terminate about level 12 or so), I'd pick up a couple more levels of Sorcerer to get Bull's Strength. Alternatively, I could simply ignore the spell-casting, and go Bbn.X/Ftr.4? Any suggestions... I'm rather at a loss here. Thanks! PS: We're using 3.0 Ed, core classes/races only. We have a 30-point build.
rilem 02-10-05, 01:33 PM	Lose the sorceror level — it's not worth it. You'd be better off with taking some cleric/templar/paladin levels if you're looking for Bull's Strength. True Strike is in a 3.0 domain, but it's Elf, I think. In 3.5, Fate is a good option. Maximizing Critical threat ranges is not a spectacular idea in the long run, b/c eventually you wind up playing against a large number of foes who are either immune to crits or have such a high AC that only a very high attack roll will hit anyway — thus wasting much of your Critical threat range. But anyway, you're off to a good start on Improved Critical, obviously. Normally WF and Weapon Specialization are poor choices, since they tie you to a single weapon instead of promoting flexibility. But you're already specializing with Imp. Crit, so you might as well make the most of it. Beyond that, you need a combination of Weapon Master (S&F or Oriental Adventures) and, if possible, Disciple of Dispater from Book of Vile Darkness. Both give expanded critical ranges. They also have a lot of feat requirements, meaning that your build becomes pretty locked-in. You'll need to beef up that intelligence, and knock down your strength — 18 is way too expensive in point-buy.
ksbsnowowl 02-10-05, 02:21 PM	3.0 Core only? I'd say your best bet is to wield a keen heavy pick with both hands, have the feats Power Attack, Imp. Crit, Weap Foc, Weap Spec, and pick up at least one level of Paladin so as to get the ability to cast Bless Weapon from a wand. One or two levels of Wiz or Sorc can be good for a core only melee machine. Wiz synergizes better though, because the increased intelligence gives you more skill points, and helps you qualify for Expertise and the subsequent tactical feats (Imp Disarm being the best for this type of character, IMO). But Sorcerer lends itself to better synergy if you pick up Paladin levels. I'd progress like this: 1. Fighter 1 2. Fighter 2 3. Fighter 2/Wizard (Diviner) 1 4. Fighter 2/Wizard 1/Paladin1 After that, continue to Paladin 4 if you want spells, or head back to Fighter, since one level of Paladin allows you to cast Paladin spells from wands. A great tactic to use at this point is to cast True Strike and disarm the enemy wizard unarmed. The TS spell applies to your opposed attack roll to disarm him, and when you are successful (given your good BAB, high strength, and +20 insight bonus), you can then use the wand/sword you removed from the BBEG, and kick his butt with his own weapon. The Lawful alignment required of paladin lends itself toward Dwarven Defender in the later levels, if you were so inclined. A decent over-all build would be Fighter 4/Paladin 4/Wizard (or Sorcerer) 2/Dwarven Defender 10; BAB +19, Fort +13, Ref +5, Will +8. The reflex is low, but you'll also be getting Cha to saves, even if you only take one paladin level.
Trydan 02-11-05, 12:30 PM	Hmm... some interesting ideas. Many thanks for the replies. I'll try and revise the build this weekend. Thanks again.
rilem 02-11-05, 12:45 PM	Apologies, I missed Core-only. Usually I read more closely than that. I'll stand by my abilities comments, however. Lower the strength for now. Anyway, the DMG, I believe, has a variant of Dwarf that gives Dex penalty instead of Cha. Still core, and allows for even better synergy with KSB's Paladin suggestion.
Resdayn 02-11-05, 02:52 PM	I'd say your best bet is to wield a keen heavy pick with both hands, have the feats Power Attack, Imp. Crit, Weap Foc, Weap Spec, and pick up at least one level of Paladin so as to get the ability to cast Bless Weapon from a wand. Keen is a must-have in imp. critical builds but I don't think it can be applied to a heavy pick since it is not a slashing weapon. It's a pity that piercing and bludgeoning weapons don't get a compensation for that missing keen enchantment. Besides: a heavy pick isn't really a piercing weapon either - sounds more like impaling to me ;)
Barmoz 02-11-05, 02:59 PM	I'm an idiot, just re-read the title of the thread - was pointing out the non stacking of imp crit and keen.
Griff_Goodbeard 02-11-05, 03:11 PM	Originally posted by Trydan PS: We're using 3.0 Ed, core classes/races only. We have a 30-point build. I guess they stack for him
rilem 02-11-05, 03:18 PM	Keen is a must-have in imp. critical builds but I don't think it can be applied to a heavy pick since it is not a slashing weapon.... The 3.0 DMG errata allowed keen to be put on Piercing Weapons.