Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Faragon 06-09-05, 05:13 AM	3.0 Edition game Stats are rolled, can't be changed No third party material allowed No non-core races allowed Starting at 8th level Human Wizard5 / Incantator 3 (aiming for Archmage) STR 10 DEX 15 CON 16 INT 21 (natural 17 with 4th and 8th increase, +2 from amulet) WIS 15 CHA 09 Specialist Abjuration (at first level of Incantatrix, so I still have acces to invisibility) Banned Illusion Saves Fort 7 (2 base, 3 con, 2 cloak) Refl 8 (2 base, 2 dex, 2 cloak, 2 weasel familiar) (posible buff: 3 from shield) Will 13 (7 base, 2 wis, 2 cloak, 2 iron will) HP 28+7d4 AC 17 (5 equipment, 2 dexterity) (possible buffs: 4 haste, 4 dragonskin, 7 shield, 2 protection from evil) Skills: Concentration, Knowledge: Arcana, Knowledge: Nature, Knowledge: The Planes, Scrying, Spellcraft. (I have 5 ranks left, no use for those yet. Suggestions?) Feats: Spellcasting Prodigy, Iron Will, Spell Focus (evocation), Spell Focus (transmutation), Empower Spell, Energy Substitution (sonic), Scribe Scroll. Spell selection 1st - Featherfall, Spiderclimb, Enlarge, Shield, Magic Missile, Protection from Evil, Identify, Grease 2nd - Protection from Arrows, Invisibility, Flaming Sphere, Blindness/Deafness 3rd - Dispel Magic, Haste, Dragonskin, Fireball 4th - Evard’s Black Tentacles, Stoneskin, Polymorph Other, Polymorph Self, Scrying* *scribed into Spellbook Inventory Headband of Concious effort (allows a concentration check instead of a fortsave 1/day) Cloak of Resistance +2 Amulet of Intelligence +2 Twilight Mithril Shirt +1 (+5 AC, no ASF, no ACP) Ring of [insert name] (+10 Spellcraft and +10 Concentration) Boots of sprinting (Expeditious Retreat (CL1) 1/day for 1 minute) Spellcomponent pouch (with 3x diamond dust, 5x pearls) Light Crossbow Bolts (20) Heward's Handy Haversack Alchemist's fire 5x Primary Spellbook (full) Secondary Spellbook Scrying Mirror Trail Rations 10x Silk Rope 50ft Money 98 gp (what I have left) Build continual - 9th level feat: Spell Penetration - 10th level metamagic feat: Quicken Spell - 12th level feat: Skill Focus: Spellcraft (prereq for Archmage) - 12th level attribute: intelligence to 20 - 15th level feat: Greater Spell Penetration Not sure when to get into Archmage though. Earliest as possible (lvl 13 iirc) is nice for the extra DC. On the other hand the end levels of Incantatrix are nice to have fast as well... Also, I'm not sure about specialising into evocation or transmutation at first. (abjuration specialisation is added automatically at first level of incantatrix.) I'd like the extra spells, but I'm not sure what to drop for it.
Squirrelloid 06-09-05, 05:35 AM	Fireball? What would you ever need that for? And where's the enervation? Ditch stoneskin. You need glitterdust. You should have unseen servant. I'm sure more changes could be made, but i forget what 3e incantatrix does offhand.
Faragon 06-09-05, 05:20 PM	Are you serious about losing the fireball? It's the lowest level area of effect damage spell. Not having that is like not having magic missile :P Stoneskin I picked since I get extra slots for abjuration-specialisation. I deemed that the most useful spell from that level of abjurations by far. The other options don't seem that great. Enervate is a good suggestion though. I fail to see the use of unseen servant for an incantator, though a wand of glitterdust might make a good addition (if I shift some of my items around)
Faragon 06-11-05, 06:06 PM	bumpity :)
Squirrelloid 06-11-05, 07:47 PM	Are you serious about losing the fireball? It's the lowest level area of effect damage spell. Not having that is like not having magic missile :P Stoneskin I picked since I get extra slots for abjuration-specialisation. I deemed that the most useful spell from that level of abjurations by far. The other options don't seem that great. Enervate is a good suggestion though. I fail to see the use of unseen servant for an incantator, though a wand of glitterdust might make a good addition (if I shift some of my items around) Damage? Thats not what an arcane caster is there for. Disabuse yourself of that notion right now. Arcane casters are about battlefield control. There is no damage spell worth taking except perhaps MM, and i'd sub it out after about 9th level. You have evard's - not only does it deal damage in an area, it also grapples. I'd take MGoI over stoneskin - doesnt have the expensive component so you'll cast it more often. Enervation is the *best* attack spell in the game (barring fleshshiver, which if your dm allows, he is a dumbass), and the only dedicated attack spell you ever need. I'd drop something for it. Polymorph Other perhaps. Flaming Sphere is awful. Take glitterdust instead. Glitterdust can blind all the enemies in it. All of them. As well as exposing invisible creatures. It is the best 2nd level spell bar none. Definitely better than blindness/deafness. You should drop that for silence or web. Unseen Servant is so incredibly useful. It finds traps, hauls loot, picks up dropped items (the fighter really needed to draw his other weapon syndrome). Understand the beauty that is unseen servant and you will understand how to play arcane casters. Frankly, i would have banned evocation. There are 2 useful spells in it. (1) MM, for the first few levels. (2) Forcecage. MM you get to keep, because you specialize late. Forcecage can be duplicated with GSE. And isnt necessary anyway. The rest is all damage, and therefore boring and not useful. Damage is what you bring fighters along for. I mean, what else are they going to do? You on the other hand, should be disabling enemies and providing solutions to other difficulties. Summon spells are also good. SMII or III is awesome, especially if you can use FF. Kaorti is the best summonable monster ever.
Faragon 06-13-05, 02:48 AM	Okay, made some changes. Specialized extra in Transmutation (aside from the spec you get with Incantatrix1) and banned Evocation. Spells Added: Enervate, Celestial Aspect, Glitterdust, Endurance, Unseen Servant. Removed: MagicMissile, FlamingSphere, Fireball, Polymorph Other, Blindness/Deafness. Which makes the spellselection: 1 Featherfall, Spiderclimb, Enlarge, Shield, Protection from Evil, Identify, Grease, Unseen Servant 2 Protection from Arrows, Invisibility, Glitterdust, Endurance 3 Dispel Magic, Haste, Dragonskin, Celestial Aspect 4 Evard’s Black Tentacles, Stoneskin, Enervate, Polymorph Self, Scrying Celestial Aspect is versatile (flight or damage), Endurance is always a good buff to have. However, with the lacking of massive damage spells and spell that require saves, Empower Spell and Energy Sub aren't that usefull anymore. I've made the following changes to featselection: Feats Added: Spellfire Wielder, Quicken Spell, Repeat Spell Removed: Spell Focus (Evocation), Empower Spell, Energy Substitution Quicken Spell should go nicely with the later Incantatrix's abilities. Same with Repeat Spell. (which I might switch out for Twin Spell) Of course, their adjustments are awfully high for common use, but with the Instant Metamagic ability (even if it is only 2/day) that shouldn't be a problem. I might pick up Sudden Silent at 9th, so that I have a failproof escape plan once I get Teleport. Spellfire Wielder is really versatile as well (assuming the DM allows it, heh) allowing me to absorb spells, return it in raw damage (this should compensate for the lack of evocation) or even healing with it. (being able to heal is never bad :)) I kept SF(Trans) for later since I'll be wanting Disintegrate/Stone to Flesh. I'll add SF(Ench) for later since I'll be wanting Dominate. This'll also pave the way to Archmage. I'm still a bit iffed about having no direct damage spells (save Evard's, Celestial Aspect and Enervate) but those and Spellfire should do for when I need to do damage.
Battousai 06-13-05, 03:04 AM	If you still want one damaging spell , take a look at the different "orb" in Tome and blood or CA : they are conjurations , which make them much better than evocations (they even go through an AMF , I think). What books so you have access to?
Zardnaar 06-13-05, 03:08 AM	Invocation banned as a incantrix? They the metamagic mages god and in 3.0 you can have a double empowed fireball as a 5th level slot.
Squirrelloid 06-13-05, 04:37 AM	I like the new look. If you want a spell that does damage, see if your DM will allow the 3.5 spell Fleshshiver from PGtF - its a Necromancy S/W 5th spell. Now, i would never allow it (Stun no save, fort save or take up to 15d6 damage), but it is damn sweet, and one of the few reasons to prefer repeat spell to twin spell. (Double stunning in one round is pointless. Stunning one round and having that repeat the next round is awesome). I'd look at Persistent Spell. Incantatrices are masters of metamagic, and its only a +4 mod in 3e. I think its in FRCS or maybe MoF. It'll let you keep a lot of good buffing spells up all day long. That way you can focus on enervating to death the hapless creature that dared challenge you to combat. Or massing Evard's. Etc... Having thought about SM spells some recently, SMIII or IV is really worthwhile. Kaorti (FF) is a SMII monster with some nice spell-likes including alter self (and its an outsider, sweet), spiderclimb, colorspray, and at least one more. Its an awesome summon. SMIII or IV would let you get multiple of it in one spell, and as Snow recently pointed out, they can alter self into Ravids with +15 nat armor!!! Great 'tanks' for the party.
Squirrelloid 06-13-05, 04:38 AM	Invocation banned as a incantrix? They the metamagic mages god and in 3.0 you can have a double empowed fireball as a 5th level slot. Oh no, losing access to a spell which *only does damage*, whatever shall the poor mage do? Oh yeah, drain some levels, grapple with evard's, and totally pwn the monsters anyway. Right. What did i need FB for again?
Gothic Rose 06-13-05, 05:02 AM	Actually a wizard's capacity to dish out ridiculous damage in one round is it's biggest strong point. Yes, you can grapple with Evard's. Well, you can try, and fail, because I've NEVER seen that spell put to a good use - only time it was even remotely useful was to accidentally kill a bunch of innocent people. A generalist shouldn't focus on damage dealing capability, but they should ALWAYS keep a few nice, high damage spells ready and waiting for when the party doesn't have the time/energy to deal with the threat in a more drawn out battle, which is what you get when you have fighters and barbarians attacking something. That doesnt mean Evocation is the answer - Conjurations tend to be gloriously nice what with their general bypassing of SR. But don't JUST take Enervation - a whole boatload of enemies are totally immune to it. I'd never deny enervation rocks - I love necromancy far far far too much to say that - but it's not THE answer, nor is it THE BEST SPELL EVAR!!!!
Zardnaar 06-13-05, 05:20 AM	Oh no, losing access to a spell which *only does damage*, whatever shall the poor mage do? Oh yeah, drain some levels, grapple with evard's, and totally pwn the monsters anyway. Right. What did i need FB for again? For an incantrix build Invocation and Necromancy are the best schools IMHO.
Squirrelloid 06-13-05, 06:38 AM	For an incantrix build Invocation and Necromancy are the best schools IMHO. Mage theory 101: Fighters are for damage. Thats the only justification for their existence. Your job is to provide new capabilities to the party, reduce the capabilities of the enemy, control the battlefield, and provide general utility otherwise. A fireball achieves none of those goals. (1) New capabilities? Nope. Its just damage. The fighter already does that. (2) Reduce enemy capabilities. Not really. This isnt about hp, this is about hurting their attack rolls, reducing their spell slots, etc... Enervation is top of the curve here, penalizes their rolls and takes away enemy spell slots. Awesome. Slow is damn good when you first get it, because it reduces them to partial actions. But damage is just damage. (3) Battlefield control. Nope. Doesnt entangle, impeed, slow, grapple, threaten, or otherwise restrict the tactical options of your opponent. (4) Utility. Nope. Its a combat use only spell. No utility here. (Anyone who suggests lighting bonfires with fireball needs to go look at general gear and buy some flint and steel). And the sad part is, the whole school of evocation is like that. The 2 useful spells can be simulated with Greater Shadow Evocation. And you don't need them anyway. If you have to ditch a school, its evocation. Alternatives: Divination - not enough to specialize in abjuration. Edit: not to make divination sound bad. Its an awesome school. This is how mages always know what spell to prepare for a given day *weeks* ahead of time. This is one of the many reasons sorcerors suck and mages are awesome - not only can they have the perfect spell for the job, they knew what the spell was beforehand too. Enchantment - mind control is much better than evocation. even if it also sucks at high levels. This is the second school you choose to lose if you must choose 2. Illusion - shadow conjuration and evocation are useful. Mirror Image is awesome. Displacement is ok. Some other good things in here. Third school to lose if you must lose that many, but it hurts. Conjuration - Summons are awesome, web is so good when you first get it, a bunch of great utility spells. This is one of the top schools. Transmutation - The best school. Polymorph, haste, slow, teleportation, dim door, shapechange, timestop. This school has almost all the brokenness, and much of the other good spells. Oh, and did i mention disintegrate? Which in addition to being damage (meh), also 'opens' doors, 'disables' traps, and otherwise disposes of a large number of obstacles. Necromancy - featuring enervation. Really, enervation is enough to make the school good. Go necromancy. Abjuration - we're specializing in it. Also features MDJ (yay), dispel magic, mindblank, and a number of other essential schools. No one can afford to ban this one. Evocation - Almost entirely damage. Notable spells: Magic Missile (decent for the first 9 levels if you must deal damage), Forcecage. Yup, thats it. This looks entirely losable to me.
Squirrelloid 06-13-05, 06:58 AM	Actually a wizard's capacity to dish out ridiculous damage in one round is it's biggest strong point. Yes, you can grapple with Evard's. Well, you can try, and fail, because I've NEVER seen that spell put to a good use - only time it was even remotely useful was to accidentally kill a bunch of innocent people. A generalist shouldn't focus on damage dealing capability, but they should ALWAYS keep a few nice, high damage spells ready and waiting for when the party doesn't have the time/energy to deal with the threat in a more drawn out battle, which is what you get when you have fighters and barbarians attacking something. That doesnt mean Evocation is the answer - Conjurations tend to be gloriously nice what with their general bypassing of SR. But don't JUST take Enervation - a whole boatload of enemies are totally immune to it. I'd never deny enervation rocks - I love necromancy far far far too much to say that - but it's not THE answer, nor is it THE BEST SPELL EVAR!!!! Youre right, shapechange is probably the best spell ever. But at 4th level spells, my moneys on enervation for combat use. (Though MDJ, TS, and AMF are not far behind Shapechange. Thats certainly the top 4). Evards work best when you cast multiple of them. The more rolls you force them to make, the more likely they are to fail one. (Basic probability). Also note that spells like slow, web, and the like will also help hinder your enemies. A lot. I've also seen mages make good use of Tenser's Floating Disc and Unseen Servant in combat. (i'll leave it to you to figure out how). Then there's glitterdust, which reveals invisible creatures *and* has a chance to blind. And grease, which is just awesome. I love Summon Monster spells. Though i see it as more of a way to fill holes in spells known (kaorti is an awesome case in point) and tank than damage dealing. Summons are generally too low CR to contribute much damage. But they will absorb hits. For pure damage, you can always use disintegrate. Admittedly, i prefer using it to destroy annoying obstacles, but it does do damage. It also creates lots of dust - keep a sculpted prestidigitation on hand to clean up afterwards! =) A save or die spell, like Finger of Death, isnt a terrible thing to have around. My favorite mage solo battle (vs a kraken) involved the mage casting looking something like enervation/enervation/enervation/finger of death, and the kraken died. (Some of those were quickened, yada yada). 2 rounds, no more kraken. Not bad for a mage who didnt inflict a single hp of damage. What his spelllist will do in combat: (1) Grease will unbalance most foes, giving the rogue SAs on them without needing a flanking partner (theyre flatfooted). Meanwhile, the rogue has a high enough balance he's probably fine. (2) Unseen Servant will pick up dropped weapons and make them available to the fighters, hold wands for the mage, etc... (3) Glitterdust can blind, which can cause a lot of fights to end quickly. (And given a session i just played in this weekend, where a fight was made trivial because of glitterdust, this is a big deal). (4) Haste the fighters, who'll now deal more damage (and yes, outperform most damage dealing spells you can cast). (5) Enlarge the fighters, for reach and damage boosts (6) Dispel enemy caster buffs, annoying magic items, and the like. (7) Drain levels from enemies with enervation, 'dealing' 5hp damage/neg level and imposing -1 per neg level to attack rolls, skills checks, etc... (8) Grapple with Evards, potentially disabling multiple opponents (9) Wade into combat while polymorphed (and shielded and stoneskinned, etc...). I love polymorph. (10) Soulfire to turn spell slots into direct damage as needed. More versatility than this you couldnt ask. (11) If worse comes to worse, fire a crossbow. Chances are, if he's doing this, he's already contributed enough to the combat, this is just waiting for it to end. And it doesnt expend spell slots. The problem with DnD casting is that optimal strategy is nonobvious because everyone looks at the damage spells and goes *ooooh*. But if you look at resource expenditure of a party in a combat (including hp, spell slots, charges, etc... ), damage spells are rarely the appropriate tactic for tough fights (CR > average party level), and for easy fights who cares? Sit back, sip a tequila, and let the fighter earn his keep.
Faragon 06-13-05, 08:20 AM	If you still want one damaging spell , take a look at the different "orb" in Tome and blood or CA : they are conjurations , which make them much better than evocations (they even go through an AMF , I think). What books so you have access to?Pretty much all books, save third party material. Persistent Spell sounds nice, but knowing my DM, one or two dispels later I'll have wasted two feats (extend and persistent) for something I'll lose in the first or second round of combat ;) I'm doubting with my Spell Focus feats. I need two to get into Archmage, but with the current build, I hardly have any spells that'd benefit from taking them. (Maybe there are nice alternatives to Archmage?) If I take Conjuration, only Glitterdust and Grease will benefit, as no other conjuration spells I plan on picking require saves. If I take Enchantment, only Dominate spells will benefit. That hardly seems worth it. Transmutation doesn't give me any benefit now (don't have any ST spells from transmutation at the moment) but will help with Flesh to Stone and Disintegrate. In short, I don't really see any worthwhile options...
Squirrelloid 06-13-05, 08:26 AM	Pretty much all books, save third party material. Persistent Spell sounds nice, but knowing my DM, one or two dispels later I'll have wasted two feats (extend and persistent) for something I'll lose in the first or second round of combat ;) I'm doubting with my Spell Focus feats. I need two to get into Archmage, but with the current build, I hardly have any spells that'd benefit from taking them. (Maybe there are nice alternatives to Archmage?) If I take Conjuration, only Glitterdust and Grease will benefit, as no other conjuration spells I plan on picking require saves. If I take Enchantment, only Dominate spells will benefit. That hardly seems worth it. Transmutation doesn't give me any benefit now (don't have any ST spells from transmutation at the moment) but will help with Flesh to Stone and Disintegrate. In short, I don't really see any worthwhile options... How long do you plan on playing this character? SpFoc(Abj) will pump MDJ later (yay!). SpFoc(Ill) will help with Shades, Shadow Conjuration, and Shadow Evocation, and the like, which are all useful. SpFoc(Trans) must be more useful than that... Hmm... SpFoc(Div) will help scry... Hey, its a thought. SpFoc(Nec) will probably do something. I'm just not sure when. Archmage is worthwhile, even if you never use the SpFoc feats. Consider it crap feats for the PrC, and choose the best ones given what you're casting.
Fearless 06-13-05, 08:55 AM	I learned the value of Fireball last saturday, granted it was at an AD&D game. We got attacked again by some kind of Tanarii Demon, 2HD Critter with the nasty tactic to summon more critters as the first action they do. We started with 8 of em, while being lvl 7-8 party of 3. After the first summon they got 10 new critters and now there were 18 of em. This time we ran and in the end we ran out of Suzail and got 50 of em behind us before the gates closed and probably some warwizards started to wack em in town. My first Fireball Nuked 23 of em and 2 more fireballs(1 from me 1 from our cleric mage) nuked another 15 or so. We would have had no chance without fireball. Sometimes the mage is more proficient at dealing damage, especially with Area spells vs big mobs. There are diffrent ways to get em though.
Faragon 06-14-05, 03:22 AM	I plan on playing this character a very long time :P For considering those feats as simply prereq, in that case I'd rather look at a different prestigeclass. Investing three feats I don't/hardly need (two spellfocus and one skillfocus spellcraft) is a bit steep imho. If Spellfirewielder is denied, I'll probably drop the extra specialisation and get a bit of evocation back into the spellbook.
Zardnaar 06-14-05, 04:25 AM	I think to many DMs throw a single creature at the PCs where spells like Hold Monster, Enevate etc are so deadly. I have made and used enchanter/illusionist characters before but the Incantrix is custom built for evocation magic. Lose enchantment as you can get by without it.
Korg al Tarr 06-14-05, 04:47 AM	" I'm still a bit iffed about having no direct damage spells (save Evard's, Celestial Aspect and Enervate) but those and Spellfire should do for when I need to do damage. " conjuration 1.lv - all leser orb spells (Complete Arcane version), grease 2.lv - glitterdust 3.lv - mestil(sp?) acid breath - conjuration ( Magic of fearun ) - stinking cloud - conjuration 4.lv - blast of flames - conjuration ( Complete Arcane) - all orb spells - conjuration ( Complete Arcane version) 5.lv - cloudkill - conjuration, "fire tentacles" - a spell in shining south(FR) it is E.tentacles with fire arc of ligtning(sp?) - complete divine? 6.lv - acid fog So i would take spell focus(conjuration). evocation - 1lv magic missile - a must, tenser disc - for transporting tresure - 2lv daylight, darkness- very good, batelfield control - 3lv firebal, l.bolt - very good for low level - so your cleric will not only heal those damge dealers - 3lv sending - 4lv wall of fire - batelfield control - 4lv fireshield - very good - 5lv wall of force - a must, batelfield control - 5lv...9lv bigby hands - very good, - 5lv scintilating(sp?) sphere(savage species) 15d6 "fireball" - sonic - 6lv contingency(sp?)- a must - 8lv sunburst - when your cleric takes a PRC and thats not all - so evocation is not only damage is a very useful school of magic
Squirrelloid 06-14-05, 05:34 AM	evocation - 1lv magic missile - a must, tenser disc - for transporting tresure - 2lv daylight, darkness- very good, batelfield control - 3lv firebal, l.bolt - very good for low level - so your cleric will not only heal those damge dealers - 3lv sending - 4lv wall of fire - batelfield control - 4lv fireshield - very good - 5lv wall of force - a must, batelfield control - 5lv...9lv bigby hands - very good, - 5lv scintilating(sp?) sphere(savage species) 15d6 "fireball" - sonic - 6lv contingency(sp?)- a must - 8lv sunburst - when your cleric takes a PRC and thats not all - so evocation is not only damage is a very useful school of magic Of course, SE and GSE will emulate all of those except sunburst (which is hardly necessary). And many of those are questionably a must. Contingency isn't a must with the craft contingency feat around, which is arguably 10x better. And GSE emulates perfectly no problem. MM is not a must. I've played plenty of mages without it. I dare everyone of you to think about optimizing a mage who deals no damage. Then play it in a reasonable party (the other players are competent and are playing effective builds). I think you'll be surprised how good it is. And that gets rid of more than just evocation. Add back in the SM spells, evard's, and the like and i would argue you have the optimal mage. Evocation just doesnt add that much for being one of the 'valuable' schools in 3e. Conjuration or Transmutation add so much more, and are well worth the sacking of Evocation.
Zardnaar 06-14-05, 05:41 AM	Easy to live without invocation. However this is the CO board and playing an Incantrix without invocation seems odd.
Gothic Rose 06-14-05, 06:18 AM	SE and GSE and Shades will all mimic, but at a HIGHER level. Big difference. There is NO spell school that you can't do without. Evocation isn't the only damage dealer, and Abjuration isn't the only protective school. Hell, Necromancy isn't the only Instadeath school, either. There's a lot of overlap, which allows people to play what they want. It's good and bad, because it loses the flavor of magic, imo, but it promotes greater survivability in characters. Personally, the only kinds of wizards I play are Generalists and Necromancers - though as a DM, I'll toss out whatever I feel like. I love necromancy, and it's the only school I'm willing to sacrifice other schools for.
runestar 06-14-05, 07:26 AM	Take evocation, conjuration, necromancy and enchantment as banned schools. That's what the incantatrix in ADnD had to give up. What exactly is it about the incantatrix you are trying to optimise? Their flavour is that they excel at dismissing outsiders and negating magical effects. SO it suggests they are dedicated counterspellers who will always have a dismissal or greater dispell magic memorised to nullify offensive magic/ summoned monsters while the fighters chop up the now(hopefully) defenseless enemy spellcasters.
Korg al Tarr 06-14-05, 09:24 AM	"Then play it in a reasonable party (the other players are competent and are playing effective builds)." Thats the most dificult part of optimizing your character "Of course, SE and GSE will emulate all of those except sunburst (which is hardly necessary). And many of those are questionably a must." -he did ban illusion
Korg al Tarr 06-14-05, 09:52 AM	From SRDShadow Evocation Illusion (Shadow) Level: Brd 5, Sor/Wiz 5 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: See text Effect: See text Duration: See text Saving Throw: Will disbelief (if interacted with) Spell Resistance: Yes You tap energy from the Plane of Shadow to cast a quasi-real, illusory version of a sorcerer or wizard evocation spell of 4th level or lower. (For a spell with more than one level, use the best one applicable to you.) Spells that deal damage have normal effects unless an affected creature succeeds on a Will save. Each disbelieving creature takes only one-fifth damage from the attack. If the disbelieved attack has a special effect other than damage, that effect is one-fifth as strong (if applicable) or only 20% likely to occur. If recognized as a shadow evocation, a damaging spell deals only one-fifth (20%) damage. Regardless of the result of the save to disbelieve, an affected creature is also allowed any save (or spell resistance) that the spell being simulated allows, but the save DC is set according to shadow evocation’s level (5th) rather than the spell’s normal level. Nondamaging effects have normal effects except against those who disbelieve them. Against disbelievers, they have no effect. Objects automatically succeed on their Will saves against this spell. So a will save and the dragon eats you --- wall of force and arrows(boulders) will fly through etc... plus undead(noninteligent), constructs and animated object what hapens to them, they are praticaly self moving objects The the tresure will just fall on the flor.- tenser disk So way would anybody want to throw away a 5 lv slot for that, maybe a sorcerer, but only if you play snow savants bouild - gnome with two shadow PRCs
Gothic Rose 06-14-05, 11:45 AM	In one of the games I play in, a fellow player is playing a Human sorcerer/archmage with greater focus in Necromancy and Illusion - specifically, shadow illusions. And he wields them to great and devestating effect "40% of the time." :P Shadow spells ARE awesome, but they dont beat out the real thing, IMHO, unless you're a sorcerer with a ridiculous Charisma.