3.0 Shifter [Archive] - Wizards Community

3.0 Shifter [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Pfla
10-31-04, 09:20 AM Just a small question:

I am making a lvl 6 character and wonder whether the Shifter prC is worth using. My plans include a human with Druid5/Shifter1 and then moving on to Druid5/Shifter10 as soon as I get the levels.

Current ideas for feats are:

Alertness, Endurance (shifter prerequisites),
Combat reflexes (could be nice in a high dex form),
and either Multiattack (will be nice even at high levels I think) or Natural spell (might get useless at high levels since I wont have more than lvl3 spells).

My question boils down to:

Is the Shifter PrC (3.0) worth losing all the druid spells and, if so, what feats should I choose?
Funny Slaughter
10-31-04, 01:50 PM in terms of raw power: no, its not worth it. in terms of versatility: yes. especially if you abuse some SS-feats like assume supernatural ability.

maybe you find the shifter-bible somewhere, probably on the archived old boards, motw-section. nothing that can beat harzerkatzes insights into the possibilities of this PrC

gs
Funny
obrysii
10-31-04, 01:54 PM Remember that once you can shift into a construct, you can transform into an Obdurium statue to gain Hardness 30.
catharz
10-31-04, 02:52 PM With Draconic wildshape (feat from... you guessed it, Draconomicon) and Warshaper PrC, the Shifter is almost/as powerful as a druid.

For those not familiar with the draconic wildshape trick: GWS lets you "mix and match" all wildshape abilities. Draconic polymorph lets you become any large or smaller dragon, gaining all (Su) and (Ex) abilities. Voilà, your shifter now gains all (Ex) and (Su) abilities of any form taken, plus the ability to become a dragon sooner then normal.
Archades
10-31-04, 08:26 PM Eh? I don't understand, guess i'll have to read up on them... and wasn't it only medium or smaller dragons, btw?
Snicker-Snack
10-31-04, 10:48 PM I don't understand, guess i'll have to read up on them... and wasn't it only medium or smaller dragons, btw?

It's just that the shifter's ability, Greater Wildshape, allows you to mix and match the benefits of GWS with the benefits of any WS that the character may already posses.

So a shifter character with Draconic Polymorph can use GWS and keep all the (ex) and (su) abilities of the shape adopted.

You are right about the sizes, though.
Tempest Stormwind
10-31-04, 11:08 PM People have taken the Forsaker's absence in any 3.5 update to indicate that the PrC no longer exists; is this also the case with the equally absent Shifter? I sincerely hope it isn't -- it says a lot about something that gains that many epic feats for free, pre-epic, and it still isn't overpowering.

On the other hand... Dragon Wildshape is a new one on me. I'll have to look in the Draconomicon again, but this seems to make it even more kickass. I always loved the shifter. You can do so much with this guy, especially after you gain access to stuff like incorpreality. I would certainly suggest any Wild feats you think are nifty (Complete Divine has a few), and the Warshaper PrC to fill out later levels on it. You can delay on the later Shifter levels if you think you have enough Wild Shape uses to burn, but remember that Evershifting Form (as I see it) doesn't use up more Wild Shape uses (so you can burn them on Wild feats).
catharz
11-01-04, 02:13 AM People have taken the Forsaker's absence in any 3.5 update to indicate that the PrC no longer exists

Which people are those?

Oh, and thanks for correcting me on the DWS feat, I was going from memory :blush:
Pfla
11-01-04, 04:20 AM maybe you find the shifter-bible somewhere, probably on the archived old boards, motw-section. nothing that can beat harzerkatzes insights into the possibilities of this PrC Thanks for the tip. Found the old Shifter Bible and it's great.

Since my group isn't that much of power gamers I might not even have to abuse any feats to get to the same power level, so a shifter seems like the way to go.
Pfla
11-01-04, 04:33 AM I'm still short on feat tips.

I only have access to the 3.0 PHB, DMG, MM, MotW, Song&Silence, Sword&Fist, Tome&Blood.

In skills I plan on going for lots of levels in Spot, Listen, Disguise, Wilderness Lore, Animal Empathy and maybe Diplomacy.

And with medium levels (from the druid skill list) in Heal, Profession(herbalist), Knowledge(nature).

I usually try to avoid bying cc skills, so it will take a while for me to get the shifter skills up to a good level.

So this was probably stupid. Trying two questions at once... I need help with both skills and feats. Pile 'em on...
Funny Slaughter
11-01-04, 04:38 AM by the RAW the draconic wildshape-trick works but i doubt that there are DMs that would allow it. you'd need to spend quite some work but the possibilities to abuse it would be endless. ok, not endless, but quite some monster manuals full :)

Pfla, i would suggest that you build a good shifter without trying to abuse it, this way you will have much more fun. the key to the shifter is its versatility, not the raw (RAW :D ) power.

if you like the shifter bible you should take a look at the 3.5-shifter i created together with harzerkatze, its a bit different but a great PrC imo (ok, i worked on it, no surprise that i like it).

anyhow, assume supernatural ability could be great when used with the right form. if you ever feel the need for more power go with draconic and exalted wildshape. celestial-template on everything and all su/ex-abilities you like, nobody can stop you with this.

gs
Funny
Cardinal Teplin
11-01-04, 09:26 AM If the GM will let you, try and get improved natural attack from the monster manuel. And any feat that reduces your penalty for making attacks with secondary weapons (eg multiattack), since you'll be doing that every full attack around for most of your career.

Snatch from MoTW is very good.

Large And In Charge from the back pages of Sword & Fist (not the main feats section) is also well worth it.

Combat expertise and improved trip is good too. Very few opponents will be able to match your sheer strength.

Bizzarely enough, martial weapon proficiency might be good too. Many of the high level forms you can go for can weild melee weapons, notably giants and outsiders, and the sheer sizes you can reach mean you can use large, huge, or even bigger weapons. A greatclub, or any other weapon you can contrive to let your GM have, deserves special mention. Combined with the spikes and brambles spells from MoTW or complete Divine, you can end up with a really good weapon. Eg, large greatclub with spikes cast on it is +2 to hit and does 3d6+5 damage, plus strength. Shilleligh can also work wonders - a huge great club with shilleigh cast on it does 8d6 damage, although the spell has considerable limitations.

Similarly heavy armour proficiency, if you can get a suit of dragonhide full plate armour, is a definite possiblity. Most combat forms don't have a high dex, and an AC in the 30-40 range is perfectly achievable.

At higher levels you will essentially be a front-line tank, and should choose feats accordingly. Your spells by contrast will never get any better, and you shouldn't waste any feats on them. After 9th level you're best off using them to buff yourself, since enemies will rarely fail a save.

This means for example, that natural spell is probably unecessary. The vast majority of your good shapes have both hands and voice, and can thus cast spells in any case. Ditto track, since you can turn into creatures that have track as a bonus feat.

So go for feats that are classically useful. Power attack, improved initiative, and so on.

Skills:
Spot and listen. You have a high wisdom, have them both as class skills, and can get some impressive racial bonuses.

Eg. 6th level - spot 9, eyes of the eagle +5, eagle form +8, alertness +2 = +24

You don't really need swim, since you can turn into aquatic creatures. Ditto climb, since you can turn into climbing or flying creatures. It might be worth blowing a few points to learn elemental languages, so you can give complicated instructions to your summoned elementals.

If you are playing 3.0 rules, you don't need knowledge nature, since it doesn't allow you to do anything that your druid abilties don't, except perhaps predicting the weather.

You also need to work out how your GM is going to determine what forms your character is familiar with. If he's going to want knowledge checks, it's worth getting the appropriate knowledges as skills.

Diplomacy is also well worth getting, since most encounters can be talked around if you can turn into a member of the species you are facing. Bluff is also an option for the same reason.

Survival( wilderness lore) is also useful for tracking.

Concentration is very useful up to level 11, at which point you no longer need it for changing shape, and it becomes largely redundent

Other than that, use skills as a role-playing aid. It's very very hard to portray a consistent character when your species changes hourly, but a few profession or craft skills can help to round out a character, and keep him sane in those dark hours of existential dread, when you realise that the best combat forms are generally hideously evil monstrocities that you are trying to emulate and become...

And remember Neitche - "Fight not monsters, lest a monster you become"

Shifters are great fun. Probably not as awe-inspiringly powerful as the 3.5 druid at high level, and probalby not quite as damaging as a traditional front-line fighter, but certainly much more versatile than either, and far far more useful out of combat.

Hanbury
Pfla
11-01-04, 11:41 AM If the GM will let you, try and get improved natural attack from the monster manuel. And any feat that reduces your penalty for making attacks with secondary weapons (eg multiattack), since you'll be doing that every full attack around for most of your career.Can't find improved natural attack, but multiattack is in MotW so should be ok.

Snatch from MoTW is very good. I missed that one. Looks really nice on a second reading though.

Large And In Charge from the back pages of Sword & Fist (not the main feats section) is also well worth it. Oh, good tip. I'll take a look at S&F.

Combat expertise and improved trip is good too. Very few opponents will be able to match your sheer strength.Combat expertise seems nice, improved trip might not make it seeing that I will only have 8 feats total until lvl 20 (which I won't reach).

Bizzarely enough, martial weapon proficiency might be good too.Nope. Sorry. Will have to be druid to reach the prerequisites by lvl 5 and they can't use any other weapons.

Many of the high level forms you can go for can weild melee weapons, notably giants and outsiders, and the sheer sizes you can reach mean you can use large, huge, or even bigger weapons. A greatclub, or any other weapon you can contrive to let your GM have, deserves special mention. Combined with the spikes and brambles spells from MoTW or complete Divine, you can end up with a really good weapon. Eg, large greatclub with spikes cast on it is +2 to hit and does 3d6+5 damage, plus strength. Shilleligh can also work wonders - a huge great club with shilleigh cast on it does 8d6 damage, although the spell has considerable limitations.These ideas are great though. Huge great club will be the trick!

Similarly heavy armour proficiency, if you can get a suit of dragonhide full plate armour, is a definite possiblity. Most combat forms don't have a high dex, and an AC in the 30-40 range is perfectly achievable.If I ever get access to a dragonhide full plate I will get the feat for this.

So go for feats that are classically useful. Power attack, improved initiative, and so on. Probably too expensive given the low number of feats. I think I'll go for as many wild shape feats as possible.

Meaning:

Lvl1: Alertness, Endurance
Lvl3: Combat Reflexes
Lvl6: Multiattack (MotW)
Lvl9: Snatch (MotW)
Lvl12: Large and in charge (S&F)
Lvl15: Leadership
Lvl18: Maybe heavy armour prof

Or something like that. (Ideas for changes are welcome; remember that I will start at lvl 6 and might progress at least a few levels but we will probably not play as fas as the 20)

Skills:
It might be worth blowing a few points to learn elemental languages, so you can give complicated instructions to your summoned elementals.

On the other hand I could get Speaking wild shape for this. Or is this a waste of a feat?

If you are playing 3.0 rules, you don't need knowledge nature, since it doesn't allow you to do anything that your druid abilties don't, except perhaps predicting the weather. Missed that. You are right of course. So I'll stay at a few ranks just in case (5 or so)

Diplomacy is also well worth getting, since most encounters can be talked around if you can turn into a member of the species you are facing. Bluff is also an option for the same reason.Bluff is cross class. Diplomacy on the other hand...

Survival( wilderness lore) is also useful for tracking. Will add this. And find something that gets racial track...

Concentration is very useful up to level 11, at which point you no longer need it for changing shape, and it becomes largely redundentI will not buy Concentration...

Other than that, use skills as a role-playing aid. It's very very hard to portray a consistent character when your species changes hourly, but a few profession or craft skills can help to round out a character, and keep him sane in those dark hours of existential dread, when you realise that the best combat forms are generally hideously evil monstrocities that you are trying to emulate and become...It even looks as if I can manage to get a few skill levels left over to persuit this kind of thinking. Nice...

And remember Neitche - "Fight not monsters, lest a monster you become"Nietzsche... :-)

Shifters are great fun. Probably not as awe-inspiringly powerful as the 3.5 druid at high level, and probalby not quite as damaging as a traditional front-line fighter, but certainly much more versatile than either, and far far more useful out of combat.

Your tips have been very usefull and are valued. Thanks a lot.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pfla 10-31-04, 09:20 AM	Just a small question: I am making a lvl 6 character and wonder whether the Shifter prC is worth using. My plans include a human with Druid5/Shifter1 and then moving on to Druid5/Shifter10 as soon as I get the levels. Current ideas for feats are: Alertness, Endurance (shifter prerequisites), Combat reflexes (could be nice in a high dex form), and either Multiattack (will be nice even at high levels I think) or Natural spell (might get useless at high levels since I wont have more than lvl3 spells). My question boils down to: Is the Shifter PrC (3.0) worth losing all the druid spells and, if so, what feats should I choose?
Funny Slaughter 10-31-04, 01:50 PM	in terms of raw power: no, its not worth it. in terms of versatility: yes. especially if you abuse some SS-feats like assume supernatural ability. maybe you find the shifter-bible somewhere, probably on the archived old boards, motw-section. nothing that can beat harzerkatzes insights into the possibilities of this PrC gs Funny
obrysii 10-31-04, 01:54 PM	Remember that once you can shift into a construct, you can transform into an Obdurium statue to gain Hardness 30.
catharz 10-31-04, 02:52 PM	With Draconic wildshape (feat from... you guessed it, Draconomicon) and Warshaper PrC, the Shifter is almost/as powerful as a druid. For those not familiar with the draconic wildshape trick: GWS lets you "mix and match" all wildshape abilities. Draconic polymorph lets you become any large or smaller dragon, gaining all (Su) and (Ex) abilities. Voilà, your shifter now gains all (Ex) and (Su) abilities of any form taken, plus the ability to become a dragon sooner then normal.
Archades 10-31-04, 08:26 PM	Eh? I don't understand, guess i'll have to read up on them... and wasn't it only medium or smaller dragons, btw?
Snicker-Snack 10-31-04, 10:48 PM	I don't understand, guess i'll have to read up on them... and wasn't it only medium or smaller dragons, btw? It's just that the shifter's ability, Greater Wildshape, allows you to mix and match the benefits of GWS with the benefits of any WS that the character may already posses. So a shifter character with Draconic Polymorph can use GWS and keep all the (ex) and (su) abilities of the shape adopted. You are right about the sizes, though.
Tempest Stormwind 10-31-04, 11:08 PM	People have taken the Forsaker's absence in any 3.5 update to indicate that the PrC no longer exists; is this also the case with the equally absent Shifter? I sincerely hope it isn't -- it says a lot about something that gains that many epic feats for free, pre-epic, and it still isn't overpowering. On the other hand... Dragon Wildshape is a new one on me. I'll have to look in the Draconomicon again, but this seems to make it even more kickass. I always loved the shifter. You can do so much with this guy, especially after you gain access to stuff like incorpreality. I would certainly suggest any Wild feats you think are nifty (Complete Divine has a few), and the Warshaper PrC to fill out later levels on it. You can delay on the later Shifter levels if you think you have enough Wild Shape uses to burn, but remember that Evershifting Form (as I see it) doesn't use up more Wild Shape uses (so you can burn them on Wild feats).
catharz 11-01-04, 02:13 AM	People have taken the Forsaker's absence in any 3.5 update to indicate that the PrC no longer exists Which people are those? Oh, and thanks for correcting me on the DWS feat, I was going from memory :blush:
Pfla 11-01-04, 04:20 AM	maybe you find the shifter-bible somewhere, probably on the archived old boards, motw-section. nothing that can beat harzerkatzes insights into the possibilities of this PrC Thanks for the tip. Found the old Shifter Bible and it's great. Since my group isn't that much of power gamers I might not even have to abuse any feats to get to the same power level, so a shifter seems like the way to go.
Pfla 11-01-04, 04:33 AM	I'm still short on feat tips. I only have access to the 3.0 PHB, DMG, MM, MotW, Song&Silence, Sword&Fist, Tome&Blood. In skills I plan on going for lots of levels in Spot, Listen, Disguise, Wilderness Lore, Animal Empathy and maybe Diplomacy. And with medium levels (from the druid skill list) in Heal, Profession(herbalist), Knowledge(nature). I usually try to avoid bying cc skills, so it will take a while for me to get the shifter skills up to a good level. So this was probably stupid. Trying two questions at once... I need help with both skills and feats. Pile 'em on...
Funny Slaughter 11-01-04, 04:38 AM	by the RAW the draconic wildshape-trick works but i doubt that there are DMs that would allow it. you'd need to spend quite some work but the possibilities to abuse it would be endless. ok, not endless, but quite some monster manuals full :) Pfla, i would suggest that you build a good shifter without trying to abuse it, this way you will have much more fun. the key to the shifter is its versatility, not the raw (RAW :D ) power. if you like the shifter bible you should take a look at the 3.5-shifter i created together with harzerkatze, its a bit different but a great PrC imo (ok, i worked on it, no surprise that i like it). anyhow, assume supernatural ability could be great when used with the right form. if you ever feel the need for more power go with draconic and exalted wildshape. celestial-template on everything and all su/ex-abilities you like, nobody can stop you with this. gs Funny
Cardinal Teplin 11-01-04, 09:26 AM	If the GM will let you, try and get improved natural attack from the monster manuel. And any feat that reduces your penalty for making attacks with secondary weapons (eg multiattack), since you'll be doing that every full attack around for most of your career. Snatch from MoTW is very good. Large And In Charge from the back pages of Sword & Fist (not the main feats section) is also well worth it. Combat expertise and improved trip is good too. Very few opponents will be able to match your sheer strength. Bizzarely enough, martial weapon proficiency might be good too. Many of the high level forms you can go for can weild melee weapons, notably giants and outsiders, and the sheer sizes you can reach mean you can use large, huge, or even bigger weapons. A greatclub, or any other weapon you can contrive to let your GM have, deserves special mention. Combined with the spikes and brambles spells from MoTW or complete Divine, you can end up with a really good weapon. Eg, large greatclub with spikes cast on it is +2 to hit and does 3d6+5 damage, plus strength. Shilleligh can also work wonders - a huge great club with shilleigh cast on it does 8d6 damage, although the spell has considerable limitations. Similarly heavy armour proficiency, if you can get a suit of dragonhide full plate armour, is a definite possiblity. Most combat forms don't have a high dex, and an AC in the 30-40 range is perfectly achievable. At higher levels you will essentially be a front-line tank, and should choose feats accordingly. Your spells by contrast will never get any better, and you shouldn't waste any feats on them. After 9th level you're best off using them to buff yourself, since enemies will rarely fail a save. This means for example, that natural spell is probably unecessary. The vast majority of your good shapes have both hands and voice, and can thus cast spells in any case. Ditto track, since you can turn into creatures that have track as a bonus feat. So go for feats that are classically useful. Power attack, improved initiative, and so on. Skills: Spot and listen. You have a high wisdom, have them both as class skills, and can get some impressive racial bonuses. Eg. 6th level - spot 9, eyes of the eagle +5, eagle form +8, alertness +2 = +24 You don't really need swim, since you can turn into aquatic creatures. Ditto climb, since you can turn into climbing or flying creatures. It might be worth blowing a few points to learn elemental languages, so you can give complicated instructions to your summoned elementals. If you are playing 3.0 rules, you don't need knowledge nature, since it doesn't allow you to do anything that your druid abilties don't, except perhaps predicting the weather. You also need to work out how your GM is going to determine what forms your character is familiar with. If he's going to want knowledge checks, it's worth getting the appropriate knowledges as skills. Diplomacy is also well worth getting, since most encounters can be talked around if you can turn into a member of the species you are facing. Bluff is also an option for the same reason. Survival( wilderness lore) is also useful for tracking. Concentration is very useful up to level 11, at which point you no longer need it for changing shape, and it becomes largely redundent Other than that, use skills as a role-playing aid. It's very very hard to portray a consistent character when your species changes hourly, but a few profession or craft skills can help to round out a character, and keep him sane in those dark hours of existential dread, when you realise that the best combat forms are generally hideously evil monstrocities that you are trying to emulate and become... And remember Neitche - "Fight not monsters, lest a monster you become" Shifters are great fun. Probably not as awe-inspiringly powerful as the 3.5 druid at high level, and probalby not quite as damaging as a traditional front-line fighter, but certainly much more versatile than either, and far far more useful out of combat. Hanbury
Pfla 11-01-04, 11:41 AM	If the GM will let you, try and get improved natural attack from the monster manuel. And any feat that reduces your penalty for making attacks with secondary weapons (eg multiattack), since you'll be doing that every full attack around for most of your career.Can't find improved natural attack, but multiattack is in MotW so should be ok. Snatch from MoTW is very good. I missed that one. Looks really nice on a second reading though. Large And In Charge from the back pages of Sword & Fist (not the main feats section) is also well worth it. Oh, good tip. I'll take a look at S&F. Combat expertise and improved trip is good too. Very few opponents will be able to match your sheer strength.Combat expertise seems nice, improved trip might not make it seeing that I will only have 8 feats total until lvl 20 (which I won't reach). Bizzarely enough, martial weapon proficiency might be good too.Nope. Sorry. Will have to be druid to reach the prerequisites by lvl 5 and they can't use any other weapons. Many of the high level forms you can go for can weild melee weapons, notably giants and outsiders, and the sheer sizes you can reach mean you can use large, huge, or even bigger weapons. A greatclub, or any other weapon you can contrive to let your GM have, deserves special mention. Combined with the spikes and brambles spells from MoTW or complete Divine, you can end up with a really good weapon. Eg, large greatclub with spikes cast on it is +2 to hit and does 3d6+5 damage, plus strength. Shilleligh can also work wonders - a huge great club with shilleigh cast on it does 8d6 damage, although the spell has considerable limitations.These ideas are great though. Huge great club will be the trick! Similarly heavy armour proficiency, if you can get a suit of dragonhide full plate armour, is a definite possiblity. Most combat forms don't have a high dex, and an AC in the 30-40 range is perfectly achievable.If I ever get access to a dragonhide full plate I will get the feat for this. So go for feats that are classically useful. Power attack, improved initiative, and so on. Probably too expensive given the low number of feats. I think I'll go for as many wild shape feats as possible. Meaning: Lvl1: Alertness, Endurance Lvl3: Combat Reflexes Lvl6: Multiattack (MotW) Lvl9: Snatch (MotW) Lvl12: Large and in charge (S&F) Lvl15: Leadership Lvl18: Maybe heavy armour prof Or something like that. (Ideas for changes are welcome; remember that I will start at lvl 6 and might progress at least a few levels but we will probably not play as fas as the 20) Skills: It might be worth blowing a few points to learn elemental languages, so you can give complicated instructions to your summoned elementals. On the other hand I could get Speaking wild shape for this. Or is this a waste of a feat? If you are playing 3.0 rules, you don't need knowledge nature, since it doesn't allow you to do anything that your druid abilties don't, except perhaps predicting the weather. Missed that. You are right of course. So I'll stay at a few ranks just in case (5 or so) Diplomacy is also well worth getting, since most encounters can be talked around if you can turn into a member of the species you are facing. Bluff is also an option for the same reason.Bluff is cross class. Diplomacy on the other hand... Survival( wilderness lore) is also useful for tracking. Will add this. And find something that gets racial track... Concentration is very useful up to level 11, at which point you no longer need it for changing shape, and it becomes largely redundentI will not buy Concentration... Other than that, use skills as a role-playing aid. It's very very hard to portray a consistent character when your species changes hourly, but a few profession or craft skills can help to round out a character, and keep him sane in those dark hours of existential dread, when you realise that the best combat forms are generally hideously evil monstrocities that you are trying to emulate and become...It even looks as if I can manage to get a few skill levels left over to persuit this kind of thinking. Nice... And remember Neitche - "Fight not monsters, lest a monster you become"Nietzsche... :-) Shifters are great fun. Probably not as awe-inspiringly powerful as the 3.5 druid at high level, and probalby not quite as damaging as a traditional front-line fighter, but certainly much more versatile than either, and far far more useful out of combat. Your tips have been very usefull and are valued. Thanks a lot.