Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SnarkHunter 08-02-03, 06:20 PM	Greetings one and all, I was wondering what the board consensus was with Arcane trickster now that odd convolutions are no longer neccesary to get 9th level spells. How have builds changed in your estimation and what are some new ideas with a pretty venerable (but powerful) character? Right now I'm thinking somewhere along the lines of 1-3 rogue Spellcasting prodigy, point blank shot 4-8 Wizard Evocation specialist, precise shot, Quicken spell(bonus), 9-18 Arcane Trickster :D Reactive counterspell, spell focus Evocation, Spell focus Illusion, skill focus Spellcraft 19-20 Archmage Mastery of Elements and Spell like ability (Quickened Scorching Ray, 9th level slot-4/day) by the end you get 17 levels of spellcasting and +7d6 sneakattack which makes his sonic substituted scorching rays do 33d6 points of damage with three succesful ranged touches. I think this is a decent build but I know it could be better. For one it would be great if there was a way to get Improved precise shot...mmm. Thoughts?
mormagli 08-02-03, 07:47 PM	one thing you might want to look into is the explosive spell metamagic feat: it can only be added to spells that offer a reflex save for half, but one of the things it does is it adds a stun on a failed save (no more dex mod) ignore me if i'm re-itterating something that has already been said
Kinson Shaldyr 08-02-03, 09:47 PM	Your build is almost an exact duplicate of the Trickster I'm just starting as well. Nice coincidence...even the focuses & feat choices for the reactive counterspell tree are the same. Rogue 3 / Wizard 5 / Arcane Trickster 8 / Archmage 4 (was 10 & 2) until I started tinkering with it tonight. I was wondering a couple of things though... 1. What race are you running with this build? I'm playing in Forgotten Realms, so I went with Strongheart Halfling...just seemed like it'd be the most fun RP-wise & the feat doesn't hurt. When you can hurl a 20ft radius ball of fire...how tall you stand tends to be a moot issue :) 2. How'd you manage to pick up Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot & Quicken Spell so early, yet still meet the prerequisites to get Reactive Spell (or is that something obtained late in that 9-18th level progression?). As you can see by the feat list below...I don't see much different between our choices of class or feats really (except you didn't opt for Eschew Materials)..so where do the ranged attack feats fit in? Feat list: Improved Initiative (halfling feat), Spellcasting Prodigy (CLVL 1), Eschew Materials (CLVL 3), Improved Counterspell (CLVL 6), Reactive Counterspell (Wiz 5), Skill Focus - spellcraft (CLVL 9), Spell Focus - evocation (CLVL 12), Spell Focus - illusion (CLVL 15), and Quicken Spell (CLVL 18). I was looking to keep him handy in the counterspelling & tactical department using spells to mainly delay or misguide opponents. And more interesting ideas fail, fall back on a damaging spell or two. Only thing I don't like is that the Archmage PrC requires enough feats to really lock the character into not having many options in feats since I took the Reactive Counterspell tree. As for the Explosive Spell metamagic feat...anyone remember where this one is written? Too lazy to sift through the books again to find it for curiousity's sake.
RadiantSoul 08-02-03, 10:00 PM	Explosive is un UE, it adds +2 levels, in exchange for knocking back creatures X distance (Like a fireball knocks them 20 feet, so they take 20/10x1d6= 2d6 additional damage) In the example they mention lightning bolt does *NOT* blast them all the way to the end of the bolt, merely 5feet to the side. RS
mormagli 08-02-03, 11:03 PM	that's not the point: so what if it only blasts them 5 ft to the side, it still has a good chance (based on your save DC) to stun the enemy: leaving them suceptible to your sneak attack. furthermore, there is no save granted for the forced movement: being able to controll your enemies position during combat is a wonderfull thing. oh yeah, and the lightning bolt won't nock them to the side if it's within a restricted space. I.E.: it will hurl them down that long, narrow corridor.
krunchyfrogg 08-02-03, 11:42 PM	The early levels might suck with your only feat (Prodigy) being useless. Human or Strongheart Halfling would solve this problem.
stembolt 08-03-03, 03:30 AM	you know you can alternate levels of rogue and wizard. If you actually intend to play the low levels, thats the way to go.
SnarkHunter 08-03-03, 06:33 AM	Actually I don't have my FR books with me right now so I couldn't remember the pre-reqs for Reactive counterspell:rolleyes: . But yeah my general plan was to start as a halfling of some sort, and stronghearts a pretty good way to go.
Phildo 08-03-03, 07:33 AM	Evocation specialist, Enchantment and Conjuration banned. One cute strategy to use is to use a quickened fear spell to make the melee enemies run from you and then sneak attack them when they have no Dex bonus to ac. Wands of Scorching Ray set to level 11 are your best friend, and when in melee you can use a wand of Shocking Grasp set to 5th level. Although, I think when you let loose a volley of scorching rays, only the first ray in the volley of three rays can have sneak damage, since it's a single action to cast the spell or use the wand. Ring of blinking is a no brainer. An alternative build is to go Rogue 4/Wiz 6/AT 10 for the possibility of 3 attacks a round, and use quickened chill touch to get multiple sneak touch attacks a round. Archmage is also good with CT since you can spell power extra touches.
SnarkHunter 08-03-03, 07:43 AM	Its only one action to cast but you have to make three attack roles, so as long as your in 30 ft and your invisible/going first/blinking then you should be able to get 3 rounds of sneak attack. At least thats the way it worked in 3.0, and so far I've seen nothing that says it differently. quickened fear's a nice trick but it would be an 8th level spell.
Sisyfos 08-03-03, 08:24 AM	Originally posted by SnarkHunter Its only one action to cast but you have to make three attack roles, so as long as your in 30 ft and your invisible/going first/blinking then you should be able to get 3 rounds of sneak attack. At least thats the way it worked in 3.0, and so far I've seen nothing that says it differently. Either you have misunderstood something or I have. My knowledge of the system tells me that you only get one sneak attack like this. You can get several if you use your iterative attacks from BAB or use several spells (one being quickened for example). This is shurikens all over again. Smirk, Sisyfos
SnarkHunter 08-03-03, 10:15 AM	Well you may be correct so I posted a query on the Combat board here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=74280). So we can discuss that yonder. If your correct the build wouldn't change that much, except for the spell like ability I suppose;) .
Kinson Shaldyr 08-03-03, 10:32 AM	Originally posted by SnarkHunter Actually I don't have my FR books with me right now so I couldn't remember the pre-reqs for Reactive counterspell. Prerequisites are Improved Counterspell & Improved Initiative, Magic of Fearun pg.22 Originally posted by SnarkHunter Its only one action to cast but you have to make three attack roles, so as long as your in 30 ft and your invisible/going first/blinking then you should be able to get 3 rounds of sneak attack. I would think this wold fall under the same catagory as Manyshot or Shurikens, in 3.0, where you might pull off several attacks with one action, but precision damage (sneak attack or 3.0 ranger's favored enemy) apply only to one of the attacks. The only difference here that is that this can target up to three different opponents (unlike the previous examples which targeted the same individual repeatedly), but I do not think it changes the ruling.
SnarkHunter 08-03-03, 10:43 AM	Okay but the difference was those were special attack actions, i.e. you threw three shurikens but only had to make 1 attack role (digression, but Shurikens no longer let you do that do they? Whats the point then?). Scorching Ray and for that matter the new Meteor Swarm require you to make seperate ranged touch attacks for each ray/orb. I thought that was the essential difference not that it was a single spell. I really don't want to wait till Ultimate Mage or whatever they call it comes out for this to be clarified.
Kinson Shaldyr 08-03-03, 10:52 AM	I certainly see where you're coming from. That's what I meant by the difference being that you're making three seperate attacks and that not quite fitting right with the standard ruling of multiple attacks for a single action grant precision damage only once. I think at this point since it isn't specifically clarified by the rules, unless someone posts where its found, that this just becomes up to the choice of your DM. If your's allows it, woe to the enemies of your sorching sneak attacks ;)
Phildo 08-03-03, 04:30 PM	Really, the main way I can see an AT getting multiple sneaks in a round is with Qucken Spell and Chill Touch. Of course, spells like Scorching Ray and the Arcane Fire thing will do more damage until your sneak attack damage with three chill touches in a round exceeds the total damage of 14d6+sneak that you'd get with Arcane Fire. Also, similar to the fear thing you could cast a spell that requires balance checks. A creature that's trying to balance is considered to have no dex bonus to AC. Best yet, they must ref save vs damage (in this case including sneak attack damage) or fall prone. Of course this would be best on a creature that has fewer than 5 ranks of balance, such as a fighter or wizard etc. Against rogues, see the fear thing. Although high level you may have to deal with slippery mind. Arcane tricksters seem to be about worthless vs monks. Anyone here have any clues how this can be overcome other than buffing up and heading into melee? Monks have great touch AC, in addition to high saves all around.
mellowship 08-03-03, 06:19 PM	Originally posted by Phildo Arcane tricksters seem to be about worthless vs monks. Anyone here have any clues how this can be overcome other than buffing up and heading into melee? Monks have great touch AC, in addition to high saves all around. [/B] Quickened Summon Monster = instant flank. Or whack him with Acid Arrows. They don't allow SR.
Snow Savant 08-03-03, 09:07 PM	Arcane tricksters seem to be about worthless vs monks. Anyone here have any clues how this can be overcome other than buffing up and heading into melee? Monks have great touch AC, in addition to high saves all around. Cast a Solid Fog (Wizard - 4th level spell) on him. His awesome saves and SR won't do jack squat against the Solid Fog. Assuming you can see him through the obscurity (you have a Goggles of Blindsight or the Blindsight spell active, right?), you can cast Rays at him right and left while he slowly wades through the morass for a few rounds. Otherwise, have your party Fighter close by ready to put the smack to him for getting so close to you. Snow
Phildo 08-04-03, 07:21 AM	Originally posted by mellowship Quickened Summon Monster = instant flank. Or whack him with Acid Arrows. They don't allow SR. Still have to deal with touch ac though. The flank thing seems to work nicely, although still, you have that accursed touch AC thing. I like the solid fog thing, but again, I don't think it denies him his dex bonus to AC. So you still have to reliably hit a touch AC of at least 24 at level 20 (20 wis + 20 Dex + 4 Monk AC bonus. Not even counting rings of protection, which could baloon their touch AC even without their dex bonus to 29. Gloves of Dex and a Periapt of wisdom increase it to 35). So for a backup weapon, have a large two handed weapon and use Quickened True Strike in conjunction with Power Attack for max. :D