3.5 Archer-type [Archive] - Wizards Community

3.5 Archer-type [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
jtgalt
02-20-04, 12:30 PM I'm in a combat-heavy 3.5 campaign.. The group consists of Fighter, Druid, Monk, and me.

My previous character, a pure ranger, got attacked by some witches of Rashaman and got dead, so it's time to make a new char.

The concept is as follows: As a young boy from the Hordelands, Yisgodol(char name) liked to do nothing more than play. That abruptly ended when raiders came and killed his family. One of the raiders drove his sword into Yisgodol's head and left him for dead.

He survived, although with a nasty scar running along one side of his face.. He was never pretty to look at before, but with the scar he's just hideous. Due to the scarring, Yisgodol is very self-conscious and not very tactful.

After the attack, he foraged and grew into boyhood. He learned how to survive on his own, and used his foraging and hunting skills to find the people who attacked his family. He then killed them in a richeous fury.

After that, he lacked direction and joined the military, where he served with distinction until he and the local baron had a difference of opinion. Yisgodol then left and decided to pursue the life of an adventurer.

I've fleshed out some of the levels, but I'm stuck on what to do afterwards.

Yisgodol Rabah Ranger1/Fighter4/OrderOfBowInitiate2/????

1) Ranger 1, Favored Enemy Human - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2) Fighter 1, Rapid Shot
3) Fighter 2, Weapon Focus(Bow)
3) Fighter 3, Improved Initiative
5) Fighter 4, Weapon Specialization(Bow)
6) OotBI 1, Mounted Combat
7) OotBI 2, Class Ability <no AoO when using bow in melee>

I'm lost as to what to do next. I took Improved Init because I like the option of going first in a round and I'm pretty much out of feats until I can take Manyshot and Improved Precise Shot.

Any suggestions/ideas? I must use the newest version of classes allowed, so CW versions trump SPLAT, etc. UE is ok, as is Underdark, Silvery Marches. All others subject to DM approval.
jtgalt
02-20-04, 12:31 PM Oh yeah, I have a 42point buy. I was thinking of:

STR: 16
DEX: 18
CON: 16
INT: 10
WIS: 12
CHA: 8

Weapon of choice is a Masterwork Composite LongBow Mighty +3
ksbsnowowl
02-20-04, 01:24 PM One question right up front; are your feats set in stone? Or is this a working build; can a few things (like feat selection) be changed?

Have a look at this thread. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=183604) At first I was going to say that the Combat Archer would be perfect for you (and it still might work) but with having to use the CW OotBI, you lose out on quite a bit of the upper level power. Perhaps an amalgamation of the two builds from that thread? If you can change some of your feats around you'd be able to do the sniper build, you'd just have rearranged some of the levels.

I would suggest dropping mounted combat. It is very rare (IMO) that you'll actually fight with a bow from your horse (especially given that you're in the realms - get boots of flying or a flying carpet). Improved Initiative is good, but personally I'd drop it to a later level. All you'll need for DWS and Peerless Archer are Far Shot and Quickdraw (and 10 ranks in craft: bowmaking).

edit: Oh, and your attribute distribution looks good:)
Funny Slaughter
02-20-04, 01:48 PM i would take more ranger, getting some skills up is really helpful.
i dont see a reason to take the first level as ranger without the second, getting the fighting-style is quite good if you ask me.
ranger3/fighter2 would net you the same feats (except WS) as well as endurance as a bonus and quite some skillpoints.

i would also advise against mounted combat if you have no specific reason for it.

since OotBI gives you quite crappy skills i would think about alternating some deepwood sniper within.
peerless archer for three levels is also nice.

i would not recommend to take manyshot, in my opinion rapid shot is clearly superior and you wont get into many situations where you cant use rapidshot.

gs
Funny
HoshiAdam
02-20-04, 01:52 PM I'd recommend a build like this:

1: Ranger 1: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2: Ranger 2: (Archery Combat Style: Rapid Shot)
3: Ranger 3: (Endurance) Improved Initiative
4: Fighter 1: Weapon Focus: Composite Longbow
5: Fighter 2: Ranged Disarm
6: OotBI 1: Manyshot
7: OotBI 2: (Close Combat Shot)

I don't have Silvery Marches, but from what I have seen on the boards, the Peerless Archer is a great archer class. You might not have the feat requirements, but you can switch out Ranged Disarm for any feat needed.

About your point buy- I would do something like this:
Str 16
Dex 16
Con 16
Int 14
Wis 14
Cha 8

It doesn't work as well with your backstory, but with some minor changes (like not leaving the sword in the head, just making him battered into a pulp, with a big gash across his face), it makes sense. 2 more skill points per level is worth more than +1 to ac, +1 to hit with ranged, and +1 initiative, IMO.

Manyshot isn't that useful, but it does lead to Improved Rapid Shot.
jtgalt
02-21-04, 01:19 PM I tend to sit on my horse quite a bit, the party has no arcane caster for fly, and the DM is a stickler for cover, etc. Being on a horse allows me to get an elevation advantage, etc at the cost of making a ride check.

I took 1 level of ranger for the Favored Enemy bonus(+2damage vs. Humans)

I was only going to take OotBI for 2 levels to get the close combat shot ability. The rest of the class seems rather... useless.
ksbsnowowl
02-21-04, 03:42 PM Originally posted by jtgalt
I tend to sit on my horse quite a bit, the party has no arcane caster for fly, and the DM is a stickler for cover, etc. Being on a horse allows me to get an elevation advantage, etc at the cost of making a ride check.Elevation gives no advantage for ranged attacks. From the 3.5 SRD:Table: Attack Roll Modifiers
Attacker is . . . Melee Ranged
On higher ground +1 +0 Of course, this is assuming that you intend to still use archery from your horse; if you switch to melee then it's probably useful, but by dividing your focus you aren't optimizing your character as well as you could be. I would seriously rethink that approach, as a more focused archer will probably serve your party better. Even without an arcane caster you could get wands/scrolls of fly to have the rogue cast on you, and being in the Realms (I am correct in that assumption, right?) you shouldn't have much trouble getting an item of fly sometime soon. 7th level has wealth of about 30-36K, right? (I'm away from my books at the moment). You should have the funds for such an item in the near future.

Another option would be Slippers of Spider Climb; they're only 2000 gp (IIRC) and they'll get you out of melee range fairly easily (not while outside, of course, so YMMV)

I took 1 level of ranger for the Favored Enemy bonus(+2damage vs. Humans) One level of ranger is always good for an archer. It replaces the dead level of fighter (5th lvl) with some great bonuses. You get Track, a lot more skills and skill points, the ability to use wands, favored enemy, and a few other things.

I was only going to take OotBI for 2 levels to get the close combat shot ability. The rest of the class seems rather... useless. Yeah, the 3.5 version is crap. It's too bad you can't use the 3.0 version; it was a really great class. I think some levels in Peerless Archer and Deepwood Sniper would be great for this character.
jtgalt
02-21-04, 03:52 PM Let me explain the horse thing a little better.

The party keeps running into issues with our enemies taking cover behind 3' boxes and things like that. He has ruled that being on a horse (or any elevated surface) is high enough to negate that cover bonus. Additionally, we're travelling by foot/horseback all the time, so being able to shoot while mounted saves me the move action to get off the horse.

I totally understand that mounted combat isn't the best of ideas, and I'm most likely going to replace it with something else (Far Shot most likely) but it was an idea, so don't shoot me!!

Oh yeah, did I mention the DM's affinity for having us face a bunch of mobs with rank fighting and reach weapons? Talk about annoying as an archer!
PhaedrusXY
02-21-04, 03:57 PM Sounds like your DM actually has the NPCs use tactics instead of mindlessly charging to their deaths. I'd say that's a good thing.
jtgalt
02-21-04, 04:05 PM Fighting the guards of a town - OK.
Fighting freaking goblins out in the woods with the same freaking tactics? NOT OK
ksbsnowowl
02-21-04, 04:13 PM Given that cover explaination, I see your point. That's a tough call.

I'll have to read up when I get home, and it might have changed between editions, but don't you only take a penalty to ranged combat from a mount if the mount makes a double-move or run?

Ah, here, from the SRD:You can use ranged weapons while your mount is taking a double move, but at a –4 penalty on the attack roll. You can use ranged weapons while your mount is running (quadruple speed), at a –8 penalty. In either case, you make the attack roll when your mount has completed half its movement. You can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is moving. Likewise, you can take move actions normallyAs long as your mount moves its movement or less, you don't take a penalty to your attacks at all. So, unless you are really concerned about the AC of your horse, or plan on making double moves with it, then you don't really need Mounted Combat/Archery. At least, that's the way I read it.
Snow Savant
02-21-04, 04:20 PM JT,

Hard to tell from your original post, but are you starting at 7th level?

Also, I noted your last character was a pure Ranger. And in light of your more primitive "Hordelands" background and playing environment, I would think more Ranger levels would benefit you both mechanically and thematically. Or are you tired of playing a Ranger character?

The party keeps running into issues with our enemies taking cover behind 3' boxes and things like that. He has ruled that being on a horse (or any elevated surface) is high enough to negate that cover bonus. Well, this may not fit with your background desires, but anytime and an archer is having difficulties with cover and all, taking to the air helps compensate for such tactics.

Meaning, a SpellBow character. Ftr2/Mage4/SpellBowX. SpellBow is the alternate weapon version of SpellSword. With the Alter Self and/or Fly spells, you can rain death from above.

You could also go the Winged Aasimar Archer route as well.

Hope that helps with ideas,
Snow :cloud9:
jtgalt
02-21-04, 04:37 PM I actually love the Ranger class, but we ran into a bit of a problem in some of the combats we've had.

The party is currently level 4(just dinged) but i'm starting at level 3 (penalty for dying).

The monk took a +2ECL race, so his 10hp have earned him the name "glassjaw" as he's gotten KO'ed in EVERY fight we've had.

The fighter has really, really bad stats and has yet to connect with an attack.

The druid has been casting "summon nature's ally" and "entangle" spells like there's no tomorrow.

I'm the main damage dealer. Rapid Shot + favored enemy(human) + lots of crits(been really lucky) pretty much puts me at the top of the NPC hate list. As such, the DM has altered his combat style to try and stymie me - reach weapons, hiding behind things, etc.

To try and combat this, I'm trying to maximize my to-hit and my damage. Neither the monk nor the fighter will provide much assistance in this regard for quite some time, so the onus is on me.

I've planned the progression to level 7 because that was as far as I could see to go - I dont' usually play combat characters. I'm much more the arcane type, but I'm trying to break out of my shell as it were.

Going down the fighter tree, getting Weapon Spec and extra feats, etc, seemed like a better idea than going ranger 20 and getting the +10 favored enemy bonus. As it stands now, I'm tied with Ranger from levels 1-4 for Favored Enemy damage, and then I surpass the Ranger from 5-9 as I use Weapon Spec vs. a 2nd favored enemy. Around level 10 is where I see Ranger gaining an advantage again, but if I went back to ranger from 8-11 I'd catch up there.

The druid has spot and listen covered, while the monk has search down. Skill-wise i'm not too worried about helping the party; my main focus is on killing the things that the rest of the party invariably pisses off.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
jtgalt 02-20-04, 12:30 PM	I'm in a combat-heavy 3.5 campaign.. The group consists of Fighter, Druid, Monk, and me. My previous character, a pure ranger, got attacked by some witches of Rashaman and got dead, so it's time to make a new char. The concept is as follows: As a young boy from the Hordelands, Yisgodol(char name) liked to do nothing more than play. That abruptly ended when raiders came and killed his family. One of the raiders drove his sword into Yisgodol's head and left him for dead. He survived, although with a nasty scar running along one side of his face.. He was never pretty to look at before, but with the scar he's just hideous. Due to the scarring, Yisgodol is very self-conscious and not very tactful. After the attack, he foraged and grew into boyhood. He learned how to survive on his own, and used his foraging and hunting skills to find the people who attacked his family. He then killed them in a richeous fury. After that, he lacked direction and joined the military, where he served with distinction until he and the local baron had a difference of opinion. Yisgodol then left and decided to pursue the life of an adventurer. I've fleshed out some of the levels, but I'm stuck on what to do afterwards. Yisgodol Rabah Ranger1/Fighter4/OrderOfBowInitiate2/???? 1) Ranger 1, Favored Enemy Human - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot 2) Fighter 1, Rapid Shot 3) Fighter 2, Weapon Focus(Bow) 3) Fighter 3, Improved Initiative 5) Fighter 4, Weapon Specialization(Bow) 6) OotBI 1, Mounted Combat 7) OotBI 2, Class Ability <no AoO when using bow in melee> I'm lost as to what to do next. I took Improved Init because I like the option of going first in a round and I'm pretty much out of feats until I can take Manyshot and Improved Precise Shot. Any suggestions/ideas? I must use the newest version of classes allowed, so CW versions trump SPLAT, etc. UE is ok, as is Underdark, Silvery Marches. All others subject to DM approval.
jtgalt 02-20-04, 12:31 PM	Oh yeah, I have a 42point buy. I was thinking of: STR: 16 DEX: 18 CON: 16 INT: 10 WIS: 12 CHA: 8 Weapon of choice is a Masterwork Composite LongBow Mighty +3
ksbsnowowl 02-20-04, 01:24 PM	One question right up front; are your feats set in stone? Or is this a working build; can a few things (like feat selection) be changed? Have a look at this thread. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=183604) At first I was going to say that the Combat Archer would be perfect for you (and it still might work) but with having to use the CW OotBI, you lose out on quite a bit of the upper level power. Perhaps an amalgamation of the two builds from that thread? If you can change some of your feats around you'd be able to do the sniper build, you'd just have rearranged some of the levels. I would suggest dropping mounted combat. It is very rare (IMO) that you'll actually fight with a bow from your horse (especially given that you're in the realms - get boots of flying or a flying carpet). Improved Initiative is good, but personally I'd drop it to a later level. All you'll need for DWS and Peerless Archer are Far Shot and Quickdraw (and 10 ranks in craft: bowmaking). edit: Oh, and your attribute distribution looks good:)
Funny Slaughter 02-20-04, 01:48 PM	i would take more ranger, getting some skills up is really helpful. i dont see a reason to take the first level as ranger without the second, getting the fighting-style is quite good if you ask me. ranger3/fighter2 would net you the same feats (except WS) as well as endurance as a bonus and quite some skillpoints. i would also advise against mounted combat if you have no specific reason for it. since OotBI gives you quite crappy skills i would think about alternating some deepwood sniper within. peerless archer for three levels is also nice. i would not recommend to take manyshot, in my opinion rapid shot is clearly superior and you wont get into many situations where you cant use rapidshot. gs Funny
HoshiAdam 02-20-04, 01:52 PM	I'd recommend a build like this: 1: Ranger 1: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot 2: Ranger 2: (Archery Combat Style: Rapid Shot) 3: Ranger 3: (Endurance) Improved Initiative 4: Fighter 1: Weapon Focus: Composite Longbow 5: Fighter 2: Ranged Disarm 6: OotBI 1: Manyshot 7: OotBI 2: (Close Combat Shot) I don't have Silvery Marches, but from what I have seen on the boards, the Peerless Archer is a great archer class. You might not have the feat requirements, but you can switch out Ranged Disarm for any feat needed. About your point buy- I would do something like this: Str 16 Dex 16 Con 16 Int 14 Wis 14 Cha 8 It doesn't work as well with your backstory, but with some minor changes (like not leaving the sword in the head, just making him battered into a pulp, with a big gash across his face), it makes sense. 2 more skill points per level is worth more than +1 to ac, +1 to hit with ranged, and +1 initiative, IMO. Manyshot isn't that useful, but it does lead to Improved Rapid Shot.
jtgalt 02-21-04, 01:19 PM	I tend to sit on my horse quite a bit, the party has no arcane caster for fly, and the DM is a stickler for cover, etc. Being on a horse allows me to get an elevation advantage, etc at the cost of making a ride check. I took 1 level of ranger for the Favored Enemy bonus(+2damage vs. Humans) I was only going to take OotBI for 2 levels to get the close combat shot ability. The rest of the class seems rather... useless.
ksbsnowowl 02-21-04, 03:42 PM	Originally posted by jtgalt I tend to sit on my horse quite a bit, the party has no arcane caster for fly, and the DM is a stickler for cover, etc. Being on a horse allows me to get an elevation advantage, etc at the cost of making a ride check.Elevation gives no advantage for ranged attacks. From the 3.5 SRD:Table: Attack Roll Modifiers Attacker is . . . Melee Ranged On higher ground +1 +0 Of course, this is assuming that you intend to still use archery from your horse; if you switch to melee then it's probably useful, but by dividing your focus you aren't optimizing your character as well as you could be. I would seriously rethink that approach, as a more focused archer will probably serve your party better. Even without an arcane caster you could get wands/scrolls of fly to have the rogue cast on you, and being in the Realms (I am correct in that assumption, right?) you shouldn't have much trouble getting an item of fly sometime soon. 7th level has wealth of about 30-36K, right? (I'm away from my books at the moment). You should have the funds for such an item in the near future. Another option would be Slippers of Spider Climb; they're only 2000 gp (IIRC) and they'll get you out of melee range fairly easily (not while outside, of course, so YMMV) I took 1 level of ranger for the Favored Enemy bonus(+2damage vs. Humans) One level of ranger is always good for an archer. It replaces the dead level of fighter (5th lvl) with some great bonuses. You get Track, a lot more skills and skill points, the ability to use wands, favored enemy, and a few other things. I was only going to take OotBI for 2 levels to get the close combat shot ability. The rest of the class seems rather... useless. Yeah, the 3.5 version is crap. It's too bad you can't use the 3.0 version; it was a really great class. I think some levels in Peerless Archer and Deepwood Sniper would be great for this character.
jtgalt 02-21-04, 03:52 PM	Let me explain the horse thing a little better. The party keeps running into issues with our enemies taking cover behind 3' boxes and things like that. He has ruled that being on a horse (or any elevated surface) is high enough to negate that cover bonus. Additionally, we're travelling by foot/horseback all the time, so being able to shoot while mounted saves me the move action to get off the horse. I totally understand that mounted combat isn't the best of ideas, and I'm most likely going to replace it with something else (Far Shot most likely) but it was an idea, so don't shoot me!! Oh yeah, did I mention the DM's affinity for having us face a bunch of mobs with rank fighting and reach weapons? Talk about annoying as an archer!
PhaedrusXY 02-21-04, 03:57 PM	Sounds like your DM actually has the NPCs use tactics instead of mindlessly charging to their deaths. I'd say that's a good thing.
jtgalt 02-21-04, 04:05 PM	Fighting the guards of a town - OK. Fighting freaking goblins out in the woods with the same freaking tactics? NOT OK
ksbsnowowl 02-21-04, 04:13 PM	Given that cover explaination, I see your point. That's a tough call. I'll have to read up when I get home, and it might have changed between editions, but don't you only take a penalty to ranged combat from a mount if the mount makes a double-move or run? Ah, here, from the SRD:You can use ranged weapons while your mount is taking a double move, but at a –4 penalty on the attack roll. You can use ranged weapons while your mount is running (quadruple speed), at a –8 penalty. In either case, you make the attack roll when your mount has completed half its movement. You can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is moving. Likewise, you can take move actions normallyAs long as your mount moves its movement or less, you don't take a penalty to your attacks at all. So, unless you are really concerned about the AC of your horse, or plan on making double moves with it, then you don't really need Mounted Combat/Archery. At least, that's the way I read it.
Snow Savant 02-21-04, 04:20 PM	JT, Hard to tell from your original post, but are you starting at 7th level? Also, I noted your last character was a pure Ranger. And in light of your more primitive "Hordelands" background and playing environment, I would think more Ranger levels would benefit you both mechanically and thematically. Or are you tired of playing a Ranger character? The party keeps running into issues with our enemies taking cover behind 3' boxes and things like that. He has ruled that being on a horse (or any elevated surface) is high enough to negate that cover bonus. Well, this may not fit with your background desires, but anytime and an archer is having difficulties with cover and all, taking to the air helps compensate for such tactics. Meaning, a SpellBow character. Ftr2/Mage4/SpellBowX. SpellBow is the alternate weapon version of SpellSword. With the Alter Self and/or Fly spells, you can rain death from above. You could also go the Winged Aasimar Archer route as well. Hope that helps with ideas, Snow :cloud9:
jtgalt 02-21-04, 04:37 PM	I actually love the Ranger class, but we ran into a bit of a problem in some of the combats we've had. The party is currently level 4(just dinged) but i'm starting at level 3 (penalty for dying). The monk took a +2ECL race, so his 10hp have earned him the name "glassjaw" as he's gotten KO'ed in EVERY fight we've had. The fighter has really, really bad stats and has yet to connect with an attack. The druid has been casting "summon nature's ally" and "entangle" spells like there's no tomorrow. I'm the main damage dealer. Rapid Shot + favored enemy(human) + lots of crits(been really lucky) pretty much puts me at the top of the NPC hate list. As such, the DM has altered his combat style to try and stymie me - reach weapons, hiding behind things, etc. To try and combat this, I'm trying to maximize my to-hit and my damage. Neither the monk nor the fighter will provide much assistance in this regard for quite some time, so the onus is on me. I've planned the progression to level 7 because that was as far as I could see to go - I dont' usually play combat characters. I'm much more the arcane type, but I'm trying to break out of my shell as it were. Going down the fighter tree, getting Weapon Spec and extra feats, etc, seemed like a better idea than going ranger 20 and getting the +10 favored enemy bonus. As it stands now, I'm tied with Ranger from levels 1-4 for Favored Enemy damage, and then I surpass the Ranger from 5-9 as I use Weapon Spec vs. a 2nd favored enemy. Around level 10 is where I see Ranger gaining an advantage again, but if I went back to ranger from 8-11 I'd catch up there. The druid has spot and listen covered, while the monk has search down. Skill-wise i'm not too worried about helping the party; my main focus is on killing the things that the rest of the party invariably pisses off.