3.5 Battle Maging [Archive] - Wizards Community

3.5 Battle Maging [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
AstralFire
12-06-03, 03:56 AM Okay, in my background for a campaign I'm playing, I've pretty much locked myself into being a Melee/Magic hybrid of some sort or another. (Actually, I'm sure my DM wouldn't mind if I wanted a change, but I don't feel like messing with a backstory I've already written.) Originally I was going for Eldritch Knight, but I just saw the 3.5 Spellsword and now I'm undecided - I've always wanted to channel a Chain Lightning spell into someone's torso. ^^;

So, as you may have inferred being the brilliant people that you are, I would like some help planning for my character's levels and feats. Here's what he is right now: (The Campaign is going until at least ECL of 24):

Half-Celestial/Half-Human
Chaotic Good
Wizard 1/??? (I just went up a level, so I have some time to decide what I want.)
Strength 14
Dexterity 15
Constitution 18
Intelligence 18
Charisma 10
Wisdom 11

Feats: Spell Thematics, Calishite Elementalist (Air)

This was what I was thinking for at least level progression:
Wiz 5/Ftr 1/Spellsword 10/EK 4. This has a very low caster level though, so Spell Resistance WILL be a problem.

However, I believe Outsiders are automatically proficient with all simple and martial weapons, leading me to consider Wiz 5/EK 10/Arch 5 instead, which covers the caster level but with less AC choices, BAB and HP.

If it helps for relevance, we have a Half-Dragon monk as well as a human Telepath in our party.

Thanks in advance.
Sisyfos
12-06-03, 04:31 AM Hmm... if your DM rules that outsiders are always proficient with all martial weapons, then fine. I disagree though.

Now lets take a look at that character. It seems that you have already started to play it, am I correct?

There is a link to a thread for fightermages in my signature. It is VERY comprehensive thread by JosephKnell and it has a lot of variants in it. I am certain that you will find something to your liking from there.

There is a great build by Neonsamurai which you might like here:

http://minmax.neonsamurai.de/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=50&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

It is based in being a sorcerer, but it has good ideas for you also.

I'd recommend not taking spellsword. You can research a spell of your own which has the visual effect of shooting from your sword and you save 5 caster levels that way. Thats almost enough extra caster levels to cast the spell quickened once in a while :-P

You will most likely be using polymorph a lot as you are an outsider. There are some great outsider polymorph forms like (this information is again from Neonsamurai's website, check it out):

Alter Self Forms:
Ice Mephit: Small, humanoid, wings, natural armor +4, speed fly 50ft(perfect)
Tojanida: Small, non-humanoid, natural armor +10, speed swim 90ft
Xill: medium, humanoid, natural armor +7, speed 30ft

Polymorph Forms:
Avoral: medium, humanoid, wings, natural armor +8, speed fly 90ft(good), STR15 DEX23 CON20
Erinyes: medium, humanoid, wings, natural armor +8, speed fly 50ft(good), STR21 DEX21 CON21
Astral Deva: medium, humanoid, wings, natural armor +15, speed fly 100ft(good), STR22 DEX18 CON18
Leonal: medium, humanoid, natural armor +14, speed 60ft, STR27 DEX17 CON20

---
Thus your STR and DEX will come from those forms.

I'd recommend for you:
Wizard5/Fighter1/EK10/wizard1/xx3 For that XX you could take sacred exorcist3, fighter1/wizard2, etc, etc. There are plenty of ideas in that J.Knells thread.
For feats these are good for fightermages:
- Combat expertise
- Improved trip
- Knockdown
- EWP spiked chain (or get some other alternative reach weapon)
- Combat reflexes
- Quicken spell
- Extend spell
- Persistent spell (take a look at the persistent spells for wizards from my signature for ideas. A persistent fireshield for example is very nice for melee characters I think...)

Why is reach important for you? You can assume large forms rather easily through enlarge and through polymorph. High reach and combat reflexes will be very useful then. Combined with knockdown feat from sword and fist you will keep your opponents down. Its simple and powerful. Alternatively you could boost this even further by taking barbarian levels instead of fighter levels! You will not be using heavy armor anyhow most likely. You will gain movement bonus, which is always good. Rage, which will boost your trip checks, and you can take feats like wolf-berserker which give you another +4 to trip checks (you already have FR based feats so I guess its ok). It will also make a very memorable character... different from the rest.

Tell us what you think and then lets look what more we can do.

Sisyfos
MoogleEmpMog
12-07-03, 02:57 AM If you really want a fighter/mage who pumps spells through his sword, try the Mage Blade core class from Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed. In particular, sub in 3 levels of Eldritch Knight at the end to get him +16 BAB for Epic readiness.

However, there are better builds that don't have this flavor but which are, in point of fact, more effective.

(BTW, what is the level adjustment for Half-Celestial? I'm so used to seeing Aasimar and Tieflings that I don't remember this one, and wasn't it changed in the Book of Exalted Deeds?)

Aasimar Sorcerer 6/Eldritch Knight 10/Knight of the Thorn 4

is my personal favorite fighter/mage, since he gets a +16 BAB at 20 hit dice and, aside from a racial ECL and the first level of Eldritch knight, FULL spellcasting progression. He also has good hit dice and some nice Knight of the Thorn class features.

Unfortunately, Knight of the Thorn is a Dragonlance-specific PrC for honorable Lawful Evil folks only, so your character probably won't qualify.

Generally, Sorcerers make better Eldritch Knights than Wizards: you have to take even levels in either primary arcane spellcasting class to get a +16 BAB without losing caster levels, so why not get to 3rd level spells at an even level and not have to touch your base class ever again?

However, your Half-Celestial Wizard could persue the following path and be quite effective:

Wiz1-5
Eldritch Knight 1-10
1-4 levels in any full arcane spellcasting PrC that grants 3/4s BAB, like Raumarthi Battle Mage (FR: Unaproachable East, pumps spells through his sword... eventually) or Knight of the Thorn.
Wiz6

This gets you +16 BAB, 19 levels of Wizard spellcasting, and the class features of your last class.

Regardless of what build you take, I doubt that you can qualify for a PrC at 2nd character level, with no racial hit dice. Just take pure Wizard until you're ready to go into a PrC.
AstralFire
12-07-03, 03:17 AM That's actually what I was considering in a nutshell now. I ask this question, though:

What's more important: BAB of at least 16, or a Caster level of at least 17.

Thanks for the help so far. ^_^
MoogleEmpMog
12-07-03, 03:31 AM Originally posted by AstralFire
That's actually what I was considering in a nutshell now. I ask this question, though:

What's more important: BAB of at least 16, or a Caster level of at least 17.

Thanks for the help so far. ^_^

That depends on if you think there's even an outside chance you'll take this character into Epic levels or not.

If you might do so, then it's much, much, much more important to get a +16 BAB by 20th character level (ECLs don't count against this, thankfully). You can always shore up your Caster Level with your first few Epic levels. On the other hand, a sub-+16 BAB forever locks you into having less than 4 iterative attacks. Unless you take a race like Thri-Kreen, that would always be better off not using iterative attacks, you'll be forever held back relative to other fighting characters.

The only way I know of to get around this (even a wish, miracle or greater god can't do a thing for you) is with the Tenser's transformation spell, but by using it, you lose your spellcasting ability, basically making you into a feat-starved Fighter.

On the other hand, if there's no chance of seeing the light of Epic day with this character, you don't have to worry about it - that 4th iterative attack is all but useless in pre-Epic levels, except for adding another chance to Crit.
AstralFire
12-07-03, 11:24 AM nope, no epic. This game is ECL 4-24, but we've all got +4 Templates....

Thanks. ^_^
Endarire
12-07-03, 11:54 AM Go Gish (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=119839&perpage=50&pagenumber=1)!

-EE

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AstralFire 12-06-03, 03:56 AM	Okay, in my background for a campaign I'm playing, I've pretty much locked myself into being a Melee/Magic hybrid of some sort or another. (Actually, I'm sure my DM wouldn't mind if I wanted a change, but I don't feel like messing with a backstory I've already written.) Originally I was going for Eldritch Knight, but I just saw the 3.5 Spellsword and now I'm undecided - I've always wanted to channel a Chain Lightning spell into someone's torso. ^^; So, as you may have inferred being the brilliant people that you are, I would like some help planning for my character's levels and feats. Here's what he is right now: (The Campaign is going until at least ECL of 24): Half-Celestial/Half-Human Chaotic Good Wizard 1/??? (I just went up a level, so I have some time to decide what I want.) Strength 14 Dexterity 15 Constitution 18 Intelligence 18 Charisma 10 Wisdom 11 Feats: Spell Thematics, Calishite Elementalist (Air) This was what I was thinking for at least level progression: Wiz 5/Ftr 1/Spellsword 10/EK 4. This has a very low caster level though, so Spell Resistance WILL be a problem. However, I believe Outsiders are automatically proficient with all simple and martial weapons, leading me to consider Wiz 5/EK 10/Arch 5 instead, which covers the caster level but with less AC choices, BAB and HP. If it helps for relevance, we have a Half-Dragon monk as well as a human Telepath in our party. Thanks in advance.
Sisyfos 12-06-03, 04:31 AM	Hmm... if your DM rules that outsiders are always proficient with all martial weapons, then fine. I disagree though. Now lets take a look at that character. It seems that you have already started to play it, am I correct? There is a link to a thread for fightermages in my signature. It is VERY comprehensive thread by JosephKnell and it has a lot of variants in it. I am certain that you will find something to your liking from there. There is a great build by Neonsamurai which you might like here: http://minmax.neonsamurai.de/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=50&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0 It is based in being a sorcerer, but it has good ideas for you also. I'd recommend not taking spellsword. You can research a spell of your own which has the visual effect of shooting from your sword and you save 5 caster levels that way. Thats almost enough extra caster levels to cast the spell quickened once in a while :-P You will most likely be using polymorph a lot as you are an outsider. There are some great outsider polymorph forms like (this information is again from Neonsamurai's website, check it out): Alter Self Forms: Ice Mephit: Small, humanoid, wings, natural armor +4, speed fly 50ft(perfect) Tojanida: Small, non-humanoid, natural armor +10, speed swim 90ft Xill: medium, humanoid, natural armor +7, speed 30ft Polymorph Forms: Avoral: medium, humanoid, wings, natural armor +8, speed fly 90ft(good), STR15 DEX23 CON20 Erinyes: medium, humanoid, wings, natural armor +8, speed fly 50ft(good), STR21 DEX21 CON21 Astral Deva: medium, humanoid, wings, natural armor +15, speed fly 100ft(good), STR22 DEX18 CON18 Leonal: medium, humanoid, natural armor +14, speed 60ft, STR27 DEX17 CON20 --- Thus your STR and DEX will come from those forms. I'd recommend for you: Wizard5/Fighter1/EK10/wizard1/xx3 For that XX you could take sacred exorcist3, fighter1/wizard2, etc, etc. There are plenty of ideas in that J.Knells thread. For feats these are good for fightermages: - Combat expertise - Improved trip - Knockdown - EWP spiked chain (or get some other alternative reach weapon) - Combat reflexes - Quicken spell - Extend spell - Persistent spell (take a look at the persistent spells for wizards from my signature for ideas. A persistent fireshield for example is very nice for melee characters I think...) Why is reach important for you? You can assume large forms rather easily through enlarge and through polymorph. High reach and combat reflexes will be very useful then. Combined with knockdown feat from sword and fist you will keep your opponents down. Its simple and powerful. Alternatively you could boost this even further by taking barbarian levels instead of fighter levels! You will not be using heavy armor anyhow most likely. You will gain movement bonus, which is always good. Rage, which will boost your trip checks, and you can take feats like wolf-berserker which give you another +4 to trip checks (you already have FR based feats so I guess its ok). It will also make a very memorable character... different from the rest. Tell us what you think and then lets look what more we can do. Sisyfos
MoogleEmpMog 12-07-03, 02:57 AM	If you really want a fighter/mage who pumps spells through his sword, try the Mage Blade core class from Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed. In particular, sub in 3 levels of Eldritch Knight at the end to get him +16 BAB for Epic readiness. However, there are better builds that don't have this flavor but which are, in point of fact, more effective. (BTW, what is the level adjustment for Half-Celestial? I'm so used to seeing Aasimar and Tieflings that I don't remember this one, and wasn't it changed in the Book of Exalted Deeds?) Aasimar Sorcerer 6/Eldritch Knight 10/Knight of the Thorn 4 is my personal favorite fighter/mage, since he gets a +16 BAB at 20 hit dice and, aside from a racial ECL and the first level of Eldritch knight, FULL spellcasting progression. He also has good hit dice and some nice Knight of the Thorn class features. Unfortunately, Knight of the Thorn is a Dragonlance-specific PrC for honorable Lawful Evil folks only, so your character probably won't qualify. Generally, Sorcerers make better Eldritch Knights than Wizards: you have to take even levels in either primary arcane spellcasting class to get a +16 BAB without losing caster levels, so why not get to 3rd level spells at an even level and not have to touch your base class ever again? However, your Half-Celestial Wizard could persue the following path and be quite effective: Wiz1-5 Eldritch Knight 1-10 1-4 levels in any full arcane spellcasting PrC that grants 3/4s BAB, like Raumarthi Battle Mage (FR: Unaproachable East, pumps spells through his sword... eventually) or Knight of the Thorn. Wiz6 This gets you +16 BAB, 19 levels of Wizard spellcasting, and the class features of your last class. Regardless of what build you take, I doubt that you can qualify for a PrC at 2nd character level, with no racial hit dice. Just take pure Wizard until you're ready to go into a PrC.
AstralFire 12-07-03, 03:17 AM	That's actually what I was considering in a nutshell now. I ask this question, though: What's more important: BAB of at least 16, or a Caster level of at least 17. Thanks for the help so far. ^_^
MoogleEmpMog 12-07-03, 03:31 AM	Originally posted by AstralFire That's actually what I was considering in a nutshell now. I ask this question, though: What's more important: BAB of at least 16, or a Caster level of at least 17. Thanks for the help so far. ^_^ That depends on if you think there's even an outside chance you'll take this character into Epic levels or not. If you might do so, then it's much, much, much more important to get a +16 BAB by 20th character level (ECLs don't count against this, thankfully). You can always shore up your Caster Level with your first few Epic levels. On the other hand, a sub-+16 BAB forever locks you into having less than 4 iterative attacks. Unless you take a race like Thri-Kreen, that would always be better off not using iterative attacks, you'll be forever held back relative to other fighting characters. The only way I know of to get around this (even a wish, miracle or greater god can't do a thing for you) is with the Tenser's transformation spell, but by using it, you lose your spellcasting ability, basically making you into a feat-starved Fighter. On the other hand, if there's no chance of seeing the light of Epic day with this character, you don't have to worry about it - that 4th iterative attack is all but useless in pre-Epic levels, except for adding another chance to Crit.
AstralFire 12-07-03, 11:24 AM	nope, no epic. This game is ECL 4-24, but we've all got +4 Templates.... Thanks. ^_^
Endarire 12-07-03, 11:54 AM	Go Gish (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=119839&perpage=50&pagenumber=1)! -EE