Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JDeMobray 06-18-04, 06:02 PM	So we're going to be starting a new 3.5 game in a week or so. I really want to play an archer, and a powerful one if possible, since the last archer I tried ended up sucking hard behind the Barbaraian and the Sword&Board fighter in the group. The thing is, the game is going to be run as "pure" 3.5 according to the DM. By which he means 3.5 PHB, DMG, Unearthed Arcana, Complete Warrior and Complete Divine. No other class books, no Campaign settings and so on. I've spent the last couple days looking through the posts here on archers and seeing a lot of things that look great but that I can't use: Peerless Archers, Deepwood Sniper, 3.0 OotBI. Is there a good way to do an effective archer character using the books I have access to?
JDeMobray 06-18-04, 08:12 PM	I suppose I should elaborate some more on the Unearthed Arcana bit. The DM has authorized all of the variant base classes and racial paragons. One of the players is lobbying hard for Gestalt classes but that is still up in the air. No bloodlines. Spontaneous Divine Casting. We'll be using the Reputation and Honor but that shouldn't make much of a difference to the build.
Frosty The Snowman 06-18-04, 08:56 PM	JDeMobray, Rogue 2 Ranger 6 Horizon Walker 6 Occult Slayer 5 Exotic Weapon Master 1 Taken in whatever order suits you. Although I would beeline for HW 6 for the DD ability. -Frosty
JDeMobray 06-18-04, 09:23 PM	Originally posted by Frosty The Snowman Taken in whatever order suits you. Although I would beeline for HW 6 for the DD ability.Thanks for the reply, Frosty. I'm not sure about the build - I don't like the idea of spending 6 levels on Horizon Walker just to get the Dimension Door feature. Also the Occult Slayer seems kind of narrow to me - I don't want to be "just" the party's Anti-Sorcerer Defense System. Actually, it does bring up another question that I keep running into - Fighter v. Ranger. With a Ranger you pick up the Combat Styles, but with the a Fighter you would end up with more feats over the same span of levels. I can see picking Ranger for the extra skill points - and easier access to various PrCs - but if you're "shooting" for pure combat efficiency isn't Fighter a better choice?
Myer Lynk 06-18-04, 09:48 PM	A question that comes to mind, of course, is are you going to be like a scout?? a sniper??? or both???? if you wanna keep things simple maybe even consider ranger 10 fighter 10 gives you plenty of skill points,plenty of feats and even a little magic.. plus evasion and other bonuses
JDeMobray 06-18-04, 09:54 PM	Originally posted by Myer Lynk A question that comes to mind, of course, is are you going to be like a scout?? a sniper??? or both???? I'm sorry, let me clarify. I see the character being primarily a sniper, I guess. If Ranger turns out to be the best way to go I wouldn't turn down the extra scouting ability. The DM has promised a lot of Epic Battle Sequences a la Helm's Deep or Pelennor Field from the Lord of the Rings movies. I would like a character to be able to make good use of Rapid Shot/Manyshot and pick up the Close Combat Shot or equivalent PrC ability. My last archer attempt fell way behind on damage, but that could have been an issue of gear.
Frosty The Snowman 06-18-04, 10:15 PM	JDeMobray, My 2 Cents. Horizon walker has value beyond just the DD. The Underground, Plains, Marsh, Hills, Forest terrain benefits are strong. Basically 4 extra skill points per level plus Darkvision. However, I can see how these could be campaign specific. The Occult Slayer’s Weapon Bond is effective against spellcasters and anything with spell-like abilities (not just casters). The buffs against spells plus Blank Thoughts is strong defense. Feasts wise I think a strong archer needs: PBS Human PS 1st level RS Rng 2 MS Rng 6 Im Rap Shot 6th level This leaves 3, 9, 12, 15, and 18 open. -Frosty
RodIshiCi 06-18-04, 10:35 PM	If you end up mostly avoiding Prestige Classes, a nice one for a lot power into each shot would be Ranger 2/Fighter 12/Exotic Weapon Master 1 and whatever you want. This allows a lot of feats (including those tricks possible with ranged feats from CW), Greater Weapon Specialization, Close-Quarters Combat Shot and some ranger abilities. Just be sure to have Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Greatbow) for being able to get into EWM (and the 1d10 base damage and extra range won't hurt, altough you may miss the ability of shooting mounted), and pick Wood Elf (MM) as race.
charlesatan 06-18-04, 10:39 PM	Originally posted by JDeMobray The thing is, the game is going to be run as "pure" 3.5 according to the DM. By which he means 3.5 PHB, DMG, Unearthed Arcana, Complete Warrior and Complete Divine. No other class books, no Campaign settings and so on. I'd just like to point out (and you can point this out to your GM as well... but unless you have these books as well, the point is moot) that "pure 3.5" includes the ff books as well: Miniatures Handbook, Expanded Psionics Handbook, Draconomicon, and Book of Exalted Deeds (if you're running an Exalted campaign).
JDeMobray 06-18-04, 10:41 PM	Originally posted by Frosty The Snowman Horizon walker has value beyond just the DD. The Underground, Plains, Marsh, Hills, Forest terrain benefits are strong. Basically 2 extra skill points per level plus Darkvision.See, you're right here. I was mis-remembering the benefits as being specific to the terrain (i.e. +4 to Move Silently in Marshes). The Occult Slayer’s Weapon Bond is effective against spellcasters and anything with spell-like abilities (not just casters). The buffs against spells plus Blank Thoughts is strong defense.Hmmmm, you're right again with the Weapon Bond. On the Blank Thoughts though, I would like to focus more on offensive capabilities than defense on this character. I agree with you on the feats, and would only add Improved Precise Shot to the list.
charlesatan 06-18-04, 10:43 PM	If you're also starting out at a high level, I could also recommend going as an elven cleric (or a cleric with the war domain that includes a bow). You can take Zen Archery so that all you need is Wisdom rather than Dexterity to hit, and it improves your spellcasting. If you're worried about base attack bonus, Divine Power gives you that, while Divine Favor is always a good boost (+1 hit/damage every three levels), in addition to your other spellcasting abilities. Align Weapon and Greater Magic Weapon is also good in terms of penetrating damage reduction.
JDeMobray 06-18-04, 10:47 PM	Originally posted by RodIshiCi If you end up mostly avoiding Prestige Classes, a nice one for a lot power into each shot would be Ranger 2/Fighter 12/Exotic Weapon Master 1 and whatever you want. This allows a lot of feats (including those tricks possible with ranged feats from CW), Greater Weapon Specialization, Close-Quarters Combat Shot and some ranger abilities.This isn't a bad idea at all, and it's one that I've been toying around with. Is the Exotic Weapon Master 1 generally going to be preferable to OotBI 2 in your experience? How useful do you think Ranged Precision is? Just be sure to have Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Greatbow) for being able to get into EWM (and the 1d10 base damage and extra range won't hurt, altough you may miss the ability of shooting mounted), and pick Wood Elf (MM) as race. I won't feel bad about missing the mounted archery. As for the Wood Elf, that's a good idea.
JDeMobray 06-18-04, 11:01 PM	Originally posted by charlesatan I'd just like to point out (and you can point this out to your GM as well... but unless you have these books as well, the point is moot) that "pure 3.5" includes the ff books as well: Miniatures Handbook, Expanded Psionics Handbook, Draconomicon, and Book of Exalted Deeds (if you're running an Exalted campaign). Those would probably be fine, if I was the one to pick them up. Except for the Psionics Handbook; the DM has a real problem with Psionics for some reason. He's been playing since 1st edition, though, so I have my guesses as to what caused the problems. . .
JDeMobray 06-18-04, 11:04 PM	Originally posted by charlesatan If you're also starting out at a high level, I could also recommend going as an elven cleric (or a cleric with the war domain that includes a bow). You can take Zen Archery so that all you need is Wisdom rather than Dexterity to hit, and it improves your spellcasting. If you're worried about base attack bonus, Divine Power gives you that, while Divine Favor is always a good boost (+1 hit/damage every three levels), in addition to your other spellcasting abilities. Align Weapon and Greater Magic Weapon is also good in terms of penetrating damage reduction. I would be worried about my BAB, but other than that it is an attractive option. I wish he was letting us use the FR campaign setting book since I remember that there are a couple of great domains in that one along those lines.
RodIshiCi 06-18-04, 11:09 PM	Originally posted by JDeMobray This isn't a bad idea at all, and it's one that I've been toying around with. Is the Exotic Weapon Master 1 generally going to be preferable to OotBI 2 in your experience? How useful do you think Ranged Precision is? Well, not much useful. Even at all the 5d8 glory, it's only useful when you are acting into a suprise round or need to move around a lot. Even then, when you finally get Manyshot and have decent bonus damage (like elemental enchantments on bow or extra damage due feats), you'll get more out of it than from Ranged Precision, and if it's only +1d8, then it's just lousy extra damage, and you'll be better out as soon as you have Manyshot.
charlesatan 06-18-04, 11:10 PM	Originally posted by JDeMobray Those would probably be fine, if I was the one to pick them up. Except for the Psionics Handbook; the DM has a real problem with Psionics for some reason. Actually, there's a number of general feats in there that nearly anyone could take. One that you could probably take advantage of is Greater Manyshot, which allows precision damage (and crits) on all your arrows instead of just one, and allows you to shoot multiple targets instead of just one, when using Manyshot.
charlesatan 06-18-04, 11:12 PM	Originally posted by charlesatan Actually, there's a number of general feats in there that nearly anyone could take. One that you could probably take advantage of is Greater Manyshot, which allows precision damage (and crits) on all your arrows instead of just one, and allows you to shoot multiple targets instead of just one, when using Manyshot. I forgot to add that it's in the SRD: GREATER MANYSHOT [GENERAL] You are skilled at firing many arrows at once, even at different opponents. Prerequisites: Dex 17, Manyshot, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +6. Benefit: When you use the Manyshot feat, you can fire each arrow at a different target instead of firing all of them at the same target. You make a separate attack roll for each arrow, regardless of whether you fire them at separate targets or the same target. Your precision-based damage applies to each arrow fired, and, if you score a critical hit with more than one of the arrows, each critical hit deals critical damage. Special: A fighter may select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.
charlesatan 06-18-04, 11:15 PM	Originally posted by JDeMobray I would be worried about my BAB, but other than that it is an attractive option. I wish he was letting us use the FR campaign setting book since I remember that there are a couple of great domains in that one along those lines. Actually it's not much of an issue if you have time to cast buff spells, since Divine Power gives you base attack equal to your character level (so you could even multiclass and still get a Fighter base attack bonus [i.e. cleric 7/rogue 10 would still get a BA of +17 if you cast divine power]). Of course it's a 4th level spell, so you have to at least be a 7th level cleric. Past that though, you could probably multiclass into a ranger or fighter, and take the practiced spellcaster feat to reap the most from your other buff spells (i.e. divine favor).
charlesatan 06-18-04, 11:21 PM	Another way you might want to go (and this path is rarely taken advantage of) is that of a halfling with a sling. The good thing about the sling is that you apply your Str modifier to the damage rolls, so you don't need to have an exact Str score to benefit from it (as is the case with the mighty composite longbow weapons). The other benefits of being a halfling is that you'll have a higher chance to hit, but it comes at the expense of damage. If you go Halfing Paragon 3/-insert other class here, whether it's ranger or fighter-, you'll lose 1 point of base attack bonus, but in return get +2 on attack rolls with thrown weapons and slings, a +1 bonus to hit based on size, and an additional +2 Dex (giving you a +4 Dex bonus total, +2 from your race, the second +2 for achieving 3rd level of the halfling paragon). But as I said, the downside to this is that your damage goes one die down (1d4 to 1d3), and the -2 to Str can reduce your damage output. The range of 50 ft. doesn't hurt as much, although you can get Far Shot to offset this a bit (making your range increment 75 ft.). A bonus is that you spend nil for your ammunition, and that if you suddenly get a buff to Str (such as a cleric casting Bull's Strength on you) you still get to apply your full Str modifier on damage rolls.
JDeMobray 06-19-04, 12:10 PM	This is what I'm working on so far: [list=1] Ranger 1 Point Blank Shot, EWP: Greatbow Ranger 2 (Rapid Shot) Fighter 1 Weapon Focus: Greatbow, Precise Shot Fighter 2 Dodge Ranger 3 Endurance Fighter 3 Manyshot Ex. Wpn Master Close Combat Shot Figther 4 Greater Manyshot Fighter 5 Improved Critical: Greatbow Fighter 6 Weapon Specialization Fighter 7 - Fighter 8 Improved Precise Shot, Greater Weapon Focus Fighter 9 - Figher 10 Ranged Pin Fighter 11 Mobility Fighter 12 Greater Weapon Specialization Rogue 1 Sneak Attack +1d6 Rogue 2 Combat Reflexes, Evasion Rogue 3 Sneak Attack +2d6 Shadowdancer 1 Hide in Plain Sight [/list=1]I'm really not much of a character optimizer usually so I don't know if this is a good idea or not (especially the last four levels). Any feedback would be appreciated.
RodIshiCi 06-19-04, 01:09 PM	Hmm, I'd ditch that Ranger 3 level at once. You're delaying Fighter bonus feats by 1 level just for a weak free feat that Endurance is. And I would get Weapon Specialization before Greater Manyshot, as a +2 in every damage roll is more important than the possibility of scoring 2 criticals sometimes (even more rare will be the occasion you'll find a good occasion to shoot 2 different oponents instead of piercing the same enemies with 2 arrows). If you don't mind switching bows during the course, I'd rather begin with Precise Shot with a Composite Longbow instead of having Greatbow. It's common to have the party tank in melee with the enemy you're trying to shoot, and -4 is too harsh at the first level. Also, you skipped Improved Rapid Shot. Unless you plan to make heavy use of Manyshot, I'd advice to get that ASAP. Geting rid of the -2 penalty is almost as good as having Weapon Focus and GWF again. The benefit of having Shadowdancer 1 so late in the build is, at least, dubious, specially if it's the sole reason why you're getting Dodge, Mobility and Combat Reflexes. If you want to get out of melee so badly, it'd be better abandon EWM and Rogue levels for fitting Horizon Walker 6 (more efficient). If you just want to make use of the sneak attack, at that high level, you'll probably be able to get more damage out of an extra shot due Rapid Shot than relying in +2d6 SA damage for each attack (even if all the 4 attacks connect, it's just 8d6 damage, for an average of 28 damage - an extra arrow at that level and 30ft range will probably do 1d10+6+STR+any extra damage from equipment you may have). Probably there's more things, but I'll see it later.
charlesatan 06-19-04, 01:15 PM	1) Why bother with the ranger levels? It seems that you're not doing anything special/unique with it anyway. Just get rid of the ranger levels and substitute fighter levels. You'll get more feats that way and meet the prerequisites of weapon specialization (and greater weapon specialization) faster. Or you could go pure Ranger and once you have access to 4th-level spells, cast Bane Bow (from Complete Divine). 2) You're right about the last four levels. For me, sneak attack is counter-productive to what you're doing, since it only applies to targets within 30 ft. or less. If that's just going to be the case, you might as well take Order of the Bow Initiate levels, as you have ranged precision (which deals +1d8 points of damage every two levels) which doesn't need your opponents to be denied their dexterity bonus (but you can only make one shot). If you take ten levels of it, you get extended precision, allowing you to use ranged precision and sneak attack from 60 ft. The only benefit I see in multiclassing as a rogue is evasion, and the skills (but it's too late in the game for skills by now). You also get Close Combat Shot, and don't really need the Exotic Weapon Master if you go this way. 3) Your feat selection could be better. I don't see how Combat Reflexes really help you, especially since you use ranged weapons (and they don't provoke attacks of opportunity). Get Improved Rapid Shot at the later levels as well to remove the -2 penalty.
JDeMobray 06-19-04, 01:31 PM	That is great feedback, thanks. I freely admit I am terrible at optimization, so this is really helpful. Originally posted by RodIshiCi Hmm, I'd ditch that Ranger 3 level at once. You're delaying Fighter bonus feats by 1 level just for a weak free feat that Endurance is.Okay, consider it done. And I would get Weapon Specialization before Greater Manyshot, as a +2 in every damage roll is more important than the possibility of scoring 2 criticals sometimes (even more rare will be the occasion you'll find a good occasion to shoot 2 different oponents instead of piercing the same enemies with 2 arrows).They way it is presently built the +6 BAB comes ahead of Fighter 4 since I want to get virtual Rapid Shot and the extra skill points for being a Ranger early. Do you think I should swing it around the other way and stick with pure fighter early on? If you don't mind switching bows during the course, I'd rather begin with Precise Shot with a Composite Longbow instead of having Greatbow. It's common to have the party tank in melee with the enemy you're trying to shoot, and -4 is too harsh at the first level.I suppose that would be a use for the feats I pretty much wasted on Dodge, Combat Reflexes and Mobility. Also, you skipped Improved Rapid Shot. Unless you plan to make heavy use of Manyshot, I'd advice to get that ASAP. Geting rid of the -2 penalty is almost as good as having Weapon Focus and GWF again.I was thinking that the bonus rate of fire would make up for the reduced accuracy. Is I.R.S. a better choice with like a Burst weapon? The benefit of having Shadowdancer 1 so late in the build is, at least, dubious, specially if it's the sole reason why you're getting Dodge, Mobility and Combat Reflexes. If you want to get out of melee so badly, it'd be better abandon EWM and Rogue levels for fitting Horizon Walker 6 (more efficient). If you just want to make use of the sneak attack, at that high level, you'll probably be able to get more damage out of an extra shot due Rapid Shot than relying in +2d6 SA damage for each attack (even if all the 4 attacks connect, it's just 8d6 damage, for an average of 28 damage - an extra arrow at that level and 30ft range will probably do 1d10+6+STR+any extra damage from equipment you may have).I was really more interested in the Sneak Attack damage. But you're right it isn't an efficient use of the levels. In particular, I feel like I should be taking some kind of prestige class to properly optimize, but OotBI from the Complete Warrior isn't very good as has been pointed out. Deepwood Stalker looks interesting (I do like the idea of having some sneak attack, but that would probably be best done as a totally different build with less Fighter and more Ranger or Rogue).
JDeMobray 06-19-04, 01:37 PM	Originally posted by charlesatan 1) Why bother with the ranger levels? It seems that you're not doing anything special/unique with it anyway. Just get rid of the ranger levels and substitute fighter levels. You'll get more feats that way and meet the prerequisites of weapon specialization (and greater weapon specialization) faster. Or you could go pure Ranger and once you have access to 4th-level spells, cast Bane Bow (from Complete Divine).*Sigh* You're probably right here; I should either stick with Ranger to the point where I get something out of the class or ditch it for more figher levels. The primary reason I was taking it was the Combat Style but if I'm only taking two levels of it, it probably isn't a good idea. (EDIT: I'm not sighing at your advice. I'm just feeling like I don't know how to play the game at all :) ) 2) You're right about the last four levels. For me, sneak attack is counter-productive to what you're doing, since it only applies to targets within 30 ft. or less. If that's just going to be the case, you might as well take Order of the Bow Initiate levels, as you have ranged precision (which deals +1d8 points of damage every two levels) which doesn't need your opponents to be denied their dexterity bonus (but you can only make one shot). If you take ten levels of it, you get extended precision, allowing you to use ranged precision and sneak attack from 60 ft. The only benefit I see in multiclassing as a rogue is evasion, and the skills (but it's too late in the game for skills by now). You also get Close Combat Shot, and don't really need the Exotic Weapon Master if you go this way.Yeah, I figured as much. Do you think the Ranged Precision is more effective over ten levels than, say, just sticking with Fighter (for bonus feats) or Ranger (for the spells like you were suggesting)? 3) Your feat selection could be better. I don't see how Combat Reflexes really help you, especially since you use ranged weapons (and they don't provoke attacks of opportunity). Get Improved Rapid Shot at the later levels as well to remove the -2 penalty. The only reason Combat Reflexes is there was to qualify for the totally pointless Shadowdancer 1 and Hide in Plain sight (which if I want it, I should stick with Ranger and pick it up that way, I suppose).
ck2001wendt 06-19-04, 01:38 PM	Cleric Archer is your best bet, if most of the Archer PrCs are out. Cleric 10\Contemplative 3\Cleric 17 If it´s a non-cleric archer you want, the best prefix is: Ranger 2\Fighter 2\Ranger 3\Exotic Weapons Master 1 That third level of Ranger is in there because +5 BAB is required for EWM, you want to get into PrCs as quick as you can, and Ranger 3 is much more useful than Fighter 3. After that, I´m not sure where I´d go. OotBI is a wash in 3.5
JDeMobray 06-19-04, 01:45 PM	Originally posted by ck2001wendt That third level of Ranger is in there because +5 BAB is required for EWM, you want to get into PrCs as quick as you can, and Ranger 3 is much more useful than Fighter 3. That's what I was thinking too, but if I don't intend to take any more Ranger and I do plan to take more Fighter then Fighter 3 gets me closer to Weapon Specialization and so on.
RodIshiCi 06-19-04, 11:18 PM	Originally posted by ck2001wendt That third level of Ranger is in there because +5 BAB is required for EWM, you want to get into PrCs as quick as you can, and Ranger 3 is much more useful than Fighter 3. Actually, EWM has a BAB requirement of +6. Even if it wasn't planned to get more fighter levels later, I'd rather have Rgr 2/Ftr 4 than 3 of each (and 4 levels of ranger is only useful if I really want to use 1st level ranger spells without wands or if DM only allows spellcasting after the class actually get spells on their own). And on the bright side of Ftr 3, you also snatch a +1 in reflex save. ;) Originally posted by JDeMobray They way it is presently built the +6 BAB comes ahead of Fighter 4 since I want to get virtual Rapid Shot and the extra skill points for being a Ranger early. Do you think I should swing it around the other way and stick with pure fighter early on? If it was the case, it would be ok then. But since you qualify for both Weapon Specialization and Greater Manyshot at the same time (lv8), I'd rather go WS first. I was thinking that the bonus rate of fire would make up for the reduced accuracy. Is I.R.S. a better choice with like a Burst weapon? Particulary, I dislike Burst weapon since it will only come to play in the few lucky rolls I get a natural 19 or 20 (with Improved Critical) and can confirm. Even it's not hard to confirm the first attacks, doing it with a reduced bonus (like the last attacks or with a -8 penalty) is. Improved Rapid Shot is specially nice against high AC opponents, since your two first attacks will be with the maximum bonus. Let's see... at level 20, your attacks with IRS would be +20/+20/+15/+10/+5, while one with GMS would be +12/+12/+12/+12 - with IRS you'd make 3 attacks with a greater bonus, one slightly worst, plus you'd have an extra attack over it (albeit with a small bonus that probably won't make vs high AC foes). The only advantage on GMS here is the mobility you get. I was really more interested in the Sneak Attack damage. But you're right it isn't an efficient use of the levels. In particular, I feel like I should be taking some kind of prestige class to properly optimize, but OotBI from the Complete Warrior isn't very good as has been pointed out. Deepwood Stalker looks interesting (I do like the idea of having some sneak attack, but that would probably be best done as a totally different build with less Fighter and more Ranger or Rogue). Then go for it. Since you already would have levels of Ranger, you'd only need Dodge as feat. The BAB was attained far ago and you can have all those skills as you get the second Ranger level. Ancient Foe is pretty much a weak ability (unless you're running an Orc-full campaign), but SA damage and Darkvision are always welcome. For that I'd go Rgr 2/Ftr 12/EWM 1/Darkwood Stalker 5 (not necessarily in that order as I'd try to get EWM 1 right away). The two Ranger levels would grant you nice skill points, free Track feat (I won't talk about Rapid Shot because you'd get that if ditched those Ranger levels for Fighter levels), Favored Enemy, wild empathy and the ability of using wands (unless your DM house rule that you can only use them after Rgr 4). Added abilities like Uncanny Dodge from DWS is just icying on the top, since you probably would lose a lot of DEX bonus to AC if caught flat-footed.
charlesatan 06-20-04, 12:37 AM	Originally posted by RodIshiCi For that I'd go Rgr 2/Ftr 12/EWM 1/Darkwood Stalker 5 (not necessarily in that order as I'd try to get EWM 1 right away). The two Ranger levels would grant you nice skill points, free Track feat (I won't talk about Rapid Shot because you'd get that if ditched those Ranger levels for Fighter levels), Favored Enemy, wild empathy and the ability of using wands (unless your DM house rule that you can only use them after Rgr 4). Added abilities like Uncanny Dodge from DWS is just icying on the top, since you probably would lose a lot of DEX bonus to AC if caught flat-footed. Actually, the official rules state that the Paladin/Ranger don't have access to spells (and spell-trigger items) until they actually get their spellcasting levels (i.e. 4th level). So officially, you can't use wands until your Ranger level is 4. Remember though that Ancient Foe (in case you're actually fighting orcs) is precision damage (unlike the Ranger's favored enemy, although they stack) so it only works within 30 ft. Also, the one thing about Ranged Precision (with Order of the Bow Initiate) is that while you only get one attack (which must be 30 ft. or 60 ft. at 10th level), it's probably better than Manyshot since you don't get a reduced attack bonus (unless you already have a ridiculously high base attack bonus) and the extra damage die (i.e. +2d8 for example) substitute for the damage you would have done with Manyshot in a way (but it's no substitute, for example, for Greater Manyshot).
ksbsnowowl 06-20-04, 01:11 AM	Originally posted by charlesatan Actually, the official rules state that the Paladin/Ranger don't have access to spells (and spell-trigger items) until they actually get their spellcasting levels (i.e. 4th level). So officially, you can't use wands until your Ranger level is 4.You want to try again? Wands use the spell trigger activation method, and looking up spell trigger in the 3.5 SRD (or page 175 of the 3.0 DMG) we find: Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it’s even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. (This is the case even for a character who can’t actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin.) The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
charlesatan 06-20-04, 03:01 AM	Originally posted by ksbsnowowl You want to try again? Wands use the spell trigger activation method, and looking up spell trigger in the 3.5 SRD (or page 175 of the 3.0 DMG) we find: I thought I read it in a FAQ somewhere... anyway, I doubled checked and as far as I know, ksbsnowow's right (must have been thiking of spell completion).
RodIshiCi 06-20-04, 12:15 PM	Originally posted by charlesatan Remember though that Ancient Foe (in case you're actually fighting orcs) is precision damage (unlike the Ranger's favored enemy, although they stack) so it only works within 30 ft. That's why I said it was a pretty much weak ability. :) Originally posted by charlesatan Also, the one thing about Ranged Precision (with Order of the Bow Initiate) is that while you only get one attack (which must be 30 ft. or 60 ft. at 10th level), it's probably better than Manyshot since you don't get a reduced attack bonus (unless you already have a ridiculously high base attack bonus) and the extra damage die (i.e. +2d8 for example) substitute for the damage you would have done with Manyshot in a way (but it's no substitute, for example, for Greater Manyshot). With the proper equipment, you usually have the highest attack bonus anyway. On top of everything a melee character would have, you still get Point Blank Shot (+1 within 30ft) and Greater Bracers of Archery (+2) for starters, and it's also easier to concentrate on a DEX boosting item because CON isn't so important for you as it would be for someone who's actually in the frontline all the time. Still, as I said before, I'm fond of using IRS instead of Manyshot or Ranged Precision. The overall BAB will be better and you get an extra shot over GMS. I guess I can live without multiple criticals or extra damage dice in the occasions I would only get a standard action to attack.
Stalkerofthedark 06-20-04, 02:53 PM	A sniper, eh? Sounds like you need an elf (+2 dex. plus favoured class wizard) who takes 1 level wizard for the True Strike ability. Happy sniping. Or, my customized magic item that is slightly cheap, although it follows DMG rules: Ring of Infinite True Striking Need I say more (for a SLOW archer, that is)
Black Sheep 06-20-04, 05:03 PM	Originally posted by charlesatan Another way you might want to go (and this path is rarely taken advantage of) is that of a halfling with a sling. A few problems: Slings require a move action that provokes an AoO to reload. Rapid Reload does specificially not work with slings. And improvised bullets, i.e. stones, suffer a -1 on attack rolls and are treated as one size category smaller for damage purposes. I am not sure why they do that to the sling. Makes the whole thing rather useless.