Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sisyfos 10-06-03, 03:24 PM	I will start to play an incantatrix build next weekend. We start at 14th level so I will be wiz5/inc9 (taking the specialization at the beginning of incantatrix I think). For the forbidden schools I was thinking of taking illusion and necromancy. I hate to let go of illusion though, but I do want to have some enchantment spells this time. The build will be: Geryon Carmir Faruk, Male Human Wiz5 Incantatrix9; HD (5d4)+(9d4)+98; Init +6 (+2 Dex, +4 Misc); Spd Walk 30'; AC 12 (flatfooted 10, touch 12), / ( /x ) or ; SA: Hardyspirit, Improvedmetamagic, Instant metamagicx2, Instantmetamagic, Seeethereal, Sendaway, Strikeethereal, Summon Familiar; Vision: Normal AL: TN; Sv: Fort +19, Ref +14, Will +19; Str 10, Dex 14, Con 24, (19+5) Int 26, (20+6) Wis 8, Cha 13 Chain Spell, Empower Spell, Extend Spell, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Persistent Spell, Quicken Spell +2 free feats I was first thinking of making this an ultimate blaster mage, but now I am leaning against that. I would like to make this an ultimate defender against outsider (and other) threats like Incantatrix is supposed to be. Now I am trying to find ways to make this a very good defensive caster. So far I have not had many ideas on how to do this in the best possible way. I would like to find ways to use chain spell to mass buff my party members (any good spells for that?). I will also take spells like charm person, hold monster etc and turn battle tides with chain spell feat and those spells. I know illusion would be good for battlefield control, but I find myself using conjuration, evocation and transmutation a lot. I would also be able to use those higher level summon monster spells (otherwise I would have been satisfied with those shadow conjuration spells...). How would you build an extremely effective abjurer. I would like to keep the core concept of the character: Abjurer+Incantatrix. I would also like to keep persistent spell. Otherwise I am totally open for suggestions. Sisyfos PS. How does reactive counterspell actually work. Lets say that I win initiative and cast my spell. Then my opponents start casting. Does reactive counterspell mean that I can still try to counterspell my opponents spell, or do I still need a normal standard action for counterspelling. The latter option would mean that reactive counterspell would only be helpful when I lose initiative?
catharz 10-06-03, 03:36 PM	Originally posted by Sisyfos PS. How does reactive counterspell actually work. Lets say that I win initiative and cast my spell. Then my opponents start casting. Does reactive counterspell mean that I can still try to counterspell my opponents spell, or do I still need a normal standard action for counterspelling. The latter option would mean that reactive counterspell would only be helpful when I lose initiative? As far as I know, you can counter any spell cast, but loose your next action. If multiple spells are cast in one round, I don't think that you can reactively counter more than one (being able to effectively neutralize two enemy casters by loosing multiple rounds worth of actions is probably a bit too much). Protection and magic circle are two of your best spells.
toomre 10-06-03, 07:50 PM	Since you're doing Wizard 5/Incatatrix 9 instead of Abjurer 5/Incantatrix 6, you won't lose access to either Necromancy nor Illusion until you hit level 6, so you'll keep your <=3rd level spells from those two schools. As for Chain Spell, I can't imagine too many buff spells that could be Chained, since a Chain-able spell must have a range greater than touch and have a target of a single target, but most buff spells are either area spells, or touch spells. Chain Spell or not, I've always been a big fan of create magic tattoo, you'll have to spend some skill points on it though. btw. most DMs won't let charm person have any real effect once the battle's already started, understandly so, consider suggestion instead. Reactive Counterspell is not only useful when you win initiative, it's always useful. Let's say you lose initiative, your opponent casts a spell, since he went before you, you wouldn't have had a chance to ready a counterspell that round, so without reactive counterspell his effect takes place whether or not you like it. Let's say you win initiative, you can either commit a standard action to ready a counterspell only to find that you've wasted your round cause your opponent decided to not cast a spell that round or cast a spell you don't find worth counterspelling or worse yet can't counterspell, or you can go ahead and do whatever you wish this round and if you don't like what he has cast, you use reactive counterspell.
Sisyfos 10-06-03, 11:26 PM	First of all: thanks for the replies Catharz and Toomre. Your help is appreciated. Originally posted by toomre Since you're doing Wizard 5/Incatatrix 9 instead of Abjurer 5/Incantatrix 6, you won't lose access to either Necromancy nor Illusion until you hit level 6, so you'll keep your <=3rd level spells from those two schools. Yes. I am still debating this though as I find that later level specialization a bit too cheesy for me. I know that its not really character optimization, its more a voluntary inclination to create believable characters. As for Chain Spell, I can't imagine too many buff spells that could be Chained, since a Chain-able spell must have a range greater than touch and have a target of a single target, but most buff spells are either area spells, or touch spells. Yes. Chain spell starts to look a bit weak in buffing department. I like the concept of the feat though, now I would just need to find some uses for it. Chain Spell or not, I've always been a big fan of create magic tattoo, you'll have to spend some skill points on it though. Ah. I looked that spell up a few days ago. I will definitely take it now that you reminded me of it. It has nice benefits and it also has a lot of flavor. btw. most DMs won't let charm person have any real effect once the battle's already started, understandly so, consider suggestion instead. Good call. I also have a book called Joe's book of enchantment which has a lot of enchantment spells and other info. It also has some enchantment spells which have more combat uses than charm has. Reactive Counterspell is not only useful when you win initiative, it's always useful. Let's say you lose initiative, your opponent casts a spell, since he went before you, you wouldn't have had a chance to ready a counterspell that round, so without reactive counterspell his effect takes place whether or not you like it. Let's say you win initiative, you can either commit a standard action to ready a counterspell only to find that you've wasted your round cause your opponent decided to not cast a spell that round or cast a spell you don't find worth counterspelling or worse yet can't counterspell, or you can go ahead and do whatever you wish this round and if you don't like what he has cast, you use reactive counterspell. I didn't understand how the feat worked before you and catharz explained it to me. Now I see how it would be pretty beneficial and it would also fit the character concept very nicely. The problem with specialist wizards is that they do not have spells off all the schools memorized: thus counterspelling becomes much more difficult. I could of course always use dispel magic (+ greater dispel magic) for counterspelling, but those do not quarantee results. I know Ultimate Book of Feats has a feat to counter this problem but is there a core WoTC feat or a tactic also which would counter it as my DM does not necessarily agree to take 3rd party material and that UBoF has some very unbalanced material in it (-> bad reputation). Sisyfos
opticassault 10-06-03, 11:36 PM	Playing it defensive and giving up Illusion seems strange to me. One of the best defensive wizard spells, Greater Invisibility, is a 4th level illusion. I'm always wary of giving up Illusion because losing access to that spell can really hurt.
Sisyfos 10-07-03, 12:01 AM	Originally posted by opticassault Playing it defensive and giving up Illusion seems strange to me. One of the best defensive wizard spells, Greater Invisibility, is a 4th level illusion. I'm always wary of giving up Illusion because losing access to that spell can really hurt. Yes... My character concept is one which uses a lot of persistent spells. Among those are a flaming shield and persistent fire shield. Both shed light and thus cannot be made invisible at all. Persistent improved blink seems like an OK replacement for improved invisibility though. It gives the same displacement and evasion type of ability. Opponents still see where you are though. I could also ask a fellow sorcerer to cast the improved invisibility on me if necessary at certain points. I hate giving up the illusion school though. Necromancy is the only pretty easy choice for me. Then I am left with: - Transmutation (which is very important - Abjuration (my specialist school - Divination (which cannot be given up anymore in 3.5 and which I like a lot anyhow - Evocation (a lot of good spells: contingency, direct damage spells, fire shield, bigby's - Conjuration (It seems the higher level the spells go the more good conjuration spells there are: solid fog, planar bindings, gate, good summon monster spells - Illusion (Illusions, shadow conjurations [which sadly do not duplicate spells over 6th level at which point conjuration gets more and more useful], invisibility - Enchantment (Power outside the combat situations... I hate playing specialist wizards :-P ... I am playing this character a bit like an embassador for a foreign power. Thus I'd hate to give up enchantment. It is part of the character concept and it might come handy in plotting adventures also even if its combat uses are limited. Sisyfos
catharz 10-07-03, 12:23 AM	Check out the new Shadow spells in 3.5: They go up to level 8 :)
Sisyfos 10-07-03, 02:20 PM	Originally posted by catharz Check out the new Shadow spells in 3.5: They go up to level 8 :) True... They do indeed it seems. But considering that I would still drop illusion and necromancy. I am certain that CO people in here would have great suggestions on how to play the defensive role in the best way. I already took a look at the thread "Enabling your fighters to..." and I got some ideas from there. I would like to get more character specific advice on spells, feats, equipment and tactics though. Sisyfos
Sisyfos 10-10-03, 06:58 AM	I am starting to play this character tomorrow (saturday). Please give me some more feedback onto spells, feats, skills & items. The feats are now: Chain Spell, Empower Spell, Extend Spell, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Persistent Spell, Quicken Spell Improved counterspell Reactive counterspell Items: Amulet (CON +5) Belt (Save Luck Bonus (+3)/Concentration +10, Spot +10, Listen +10) Vest of Resistance +5 Headband of Intellect +6 Ring of Counterspells Ring of Wizardry I or II (empowered burning bolts [pocket grimoire arcana]& scorching rays) Boccob's blessed book x2 Loads of scrolls, which I will write down on those Boccob's. (I am thinking of dropping that +5 to CON amulet and using endurance instead (DUR: 10min/lvl in our campaign) until I find money for a +6 to CON item.) Opposed schools: Necromancy (does not fit character concept) Illusion (It was a choice between this, enchantment and conjuration) Sisyfos PS. With a counterspelling feats the archmage looks nice with its counterspell abilities. I'm somewhat out of feats though...
toomre 10-10-03, 02:28 PM	How about a couple of minor (or better) metamagic rods, only 3K each for the minor ones? Get one for Extend to ensure your 1hr/lvl buff and protection spells last 24+ hrs it'd make your create magic tattoo last 2 days too, and get one for Silent, for those rare cases when you're silenced.
Sisyfos 10-10-03, 03:26 PM	Originally posted by toomre How about a couple of minor (or better) metamagic rods, only 3K each for the minor ones? Get one for Extend to ensure your 1hr/lvl buff and protection spells last 24+ hrs it'd make your create magic tattoo last 2 days too, and get one for Silent, for those rare cases when you're silenced. Hmm... Yes. I'll look into those. Quicken spell also means makes a spell silent and still. With instant metamagic I can do that once or twice a day, but it is better to have the option to use those rods also. Yes: I'll buy a silent and still metamagic rods. Thanks toomre. Its good that you came and shared your ideas at this forum also (weren't you mostly active at the spells forum earlier?). Sisyfos PS. It seems that I will spend a fortune on buying spells and copying them to my blessed books before I start at the campaign. I am buying around 30 spells/level at low levels and less at higher as they become more expencive.
toomre 10-10-03, 04:44 PM	I'm pretty new to the forums, Aug 2003 is when I got on. I read/participate on the CO forum the most, but like most of us I go to the other forums here and there.
Sisyfos 10-10-03, 05:36 PM	I have decided on the spellbook now (whoah that took some time). First there are the spells I have. I got the normal 2 spells/lvl and I bought the rest as scrolls and wrote down on those blessed books. The overall expence was over 40k money and the blessed book itself. The numbers before the spells are personal notations and there are a lot of missing numbers at later levels. Do not wonder about that. The last list is the list of persistable spells for wizards and as you see I have picked quite some of those on my spell list and I will pick more as time goes on. Spells: 1st: 1. Burning bolt - evoc 2. Expeditious retreat - trans 3. Enlarge person - trans 4. Charm person - ench 5. Prot from evil - abj 6. True strike - div 7. Detect Secret Doors - div 8. Silent Image 9. Cause Fear 10. Comprehend languages 11. Unseen servant 12. Arcane Pointer (13. Ray of enfeeblement (14. Feather Fall (15. Floating disc) (16. Mage armor) (17. Shield (18. Alarm (19. Grease (20. Obscuring mist (21. identify (22. Guilt) -ench (23. Acidic curse) - evoc (24. Ventriloquism - ill (25. Reduce) (26. Spider climb) (27. Kaupaer's skittish nerves ) MoF (28. Runecall) 2nd: 1. Scorching ray - evoc 2. Flaming shield - abj/evoc 3. Detect thoughts - div 4. Mirror image - ill (5. Killer Instinct) - div (6. Refound focus) - trans (7. Create magic tattoo) - conj ? (8. Mantle of Unassailable Fire) - Abj (9. Endurance) - Trans (10. Knock) - Trans (11. Spectral hand) - Necr (12. Blindness/deafness) - Necr (13. Misdirection) - ill (14. Minor Image) - Ill (15. Invis) - Ill (16. Touch of Idiocy) - Ench (17. Locate Object) (18. Web (19. Summon Swarm (20. Glitterdust (21. Arcane Lock (22. Static Veil) -PGA (23. Mapping Companion) (24. Last look) (25. True Filch) (26. False wittness) (27. Spellslip) (28. Far flying flame) (29. Frostbite) (30. Cloak of night) (31. Soulbend) (32. Drunk) 3rd: 1. Phantom Steed - Conj 2. Animal Aspect - trans 3. Acid Ball - evoc 4. Blindsight - (5. Dragonskin) - trans (6. Blink) - trans (7. Dispel magic) - abj (8. Slow) - trans (9. Haste) - trans (10. Magic weapon, greater) - trans (11. Protection from elements) - Abj (12. Magic Circle against Evil) - Abj (13. Plunder Thoughts) - Div (14. Tongues) - Div (17. Keen edge) - trans (19. Displacement) - Illusion (20. Vampiric touch) - Necr (21. Halt undead) - Necr (22. Invisibility Sphere) - Ill (23. Major Image) - Ill (24. Suggestion) - Ench (25. Clairaudience/Clairvoyance) - Div (28. Rune of flames) - Evoc (29. Summon shadow raven) - Conj (30. Waiting air (31. Rune of Scrying (32. Cloaked Sphere of radiance) (33. Agony of deceit) - necr (34. Dark Victory) - necr (35. Vampiric touch) - necr (36. Secret page) - trans 4th: 1. Fire Shield - Evoc 2. Solid Fog - Conj 3. Chains of Vengeance - Evoc 4. Thunderlance - Evoc (5. Greater Mark of Earth) - Evoc (8. Globe of Invulnerability, Lesser) - Abj (10. Polymorph) - Trans (11. Greater Mark of Air) - Evoc (12. Charm Monster) - Ench (13. Scry) - Div (16. Small Favors) (17. Confusion) - Ench (23. Rune of toxicity) - abj (24. Speakeasy) - Div (27. Turnabout) - Ench (28. Cover of darkness) - Evoc (29. Spell burn) - Evoc 5th: 1. Simbul's Spell Matrix - Evoc? 2. Prying Eyes - Div 3. Teleport - Trans 4. Break Enchantment - Abj (7. Improved blink) - Trans (8. Frostbrand) - Evoc (11. Wall of Force) (12. Mind Fog) (16. Scry the ages) (21. Feeblemind) - Ench (25. Siren song) - ench 6th: 1. Repulsion - Abj 2. Greater dispelling - Abj 4. Contingency - Evoc (9. Flesh to stone) - Trans (10. Wereform) - Trans (12. Antimagic field) (13. Planar binding) (15. Geas) 7th: 1. Spellturning - Abj 2. Fog of blades - Conj 3. Reverse grav - Trans 4. Summon monster VII - Conj (5. Limited wish) - Univ (6. Banishment) detect magic-0 Read Magic (0) detect secret doors-1 detect undead-1 Expeditious Retreat (1) Shield (1) Kaupaer's Skittish Nerves (1) MoF Laeral's Cutting hand (1) MoF Find Traps (cleric 2) Claws of Darkness (2) FRCS Shadow mask (2) FRCS Invisibility (2) Levitate (2) See Invis (2) Mirror Image (2) Death Armor (2) MoF (necr) Flame Dagger (2) MoF Alter Self (2) SRD Flaming shield (2) Pocket Grimoire Arcane = PGA Killer Instinct (2) PGA Decastave (2) UE Detect Thoughts (2) SRD Arcane Sight (3) Animal Aspect (3?) PGA Blink (3) Burrow (3) RoF Glibness (bard 3) (+30 to bluff) Invisibility Purge (cleric 3) Detect Traps (3) PGA Dragonskin (3) PGA Sonorous Hum (3) SS Cover of Darkness (4) PGA Extend Tentacles (4) SS Fire Shield (4) detect scrying-4 Descent into Darkness (4) PGA Gutsnake (4) MoF Ilyykur's Mantle (4) UE Thunderlance (4) FRCS (2d6 STR 12+casterlevel) Mestil's Acid Sheath (5) MoF Ghostform (5) (TaB) Simbul's Spell Matrix (5) MoF Vital Gaze (5) PGA Improved Blink (5) UE Kiss of the Vampire (5) MoF Fiendform (6) Transformation (6) Spore Cloak (6) RoF Stone Body (6) RoF Cacophonic shield (6) MoF Soften Spell (6) PGA Ethereal Jaunt (7) Spell Turning (7) Iron body (8) Flame Whips (8) SS
Sisyfos 12-05-03, 05:53 PM	I am up and playing this character. Does anyone have ideas on how to develop him from here. He is level 14 now. I still have some feats to take and a PrC ahead of me. I could also use some ideas on tactics one could use with that spell list (or more spells researched later on) and such. Sisyfos
Snow Savant 12-05-03, 07:11 PM	As a counterspeller, here's a great tactic for when you are going up against verifiable spellcaster threats (and taking into consideration your 14th level). 1. Cast Flaming Sphere or Dessicating Bubble (SavSpec book I think). 2. Ready an action to counterspell. 3. Use Quickened 1st through 3rd level spells while keeping your standard action open for counterspelling. 4. Use your movement action to roll around the Sphere/Bubble. *** In essence, multi-task. Your readied action does not mean your Wizard has to just sit there. He can perform 2 other combat-viable actions in his round, casting say, a Charm Person spell ... and rolling the Flaming Sphere right into that Frost Giant. 3 actions in 1 turn! XO, Snow :) P.S. Nice character concept, Sisyfos. Good luck!
Jindl 12-05-03, 07:17 PM	You seem to be missing Alter Self in your spellbook. This has great defensive applications. It's really easy to have +6 natural armor. If it's not too late, I would drop Iron Will (your will save is through the roof already and 1 level of archmage regains your +2 bonus) and Improved Initiative (less important since you have reactive counterspell and persistent spell). This would free up two feats to put towards spell focus, leaving you only skill focus: spellcraft (can get at 15th level) to go archmage. -Jindl
balefire42 12-05-03, 07:22 PM	once you've finished out incantatrix, take some archmage. Mastery of counterspelling with reactive counterspell is really nice. The other abilities are nice also, and you could just shoot for the classic wiz5/incantatrix10/archmage5. as far as tactics, casting an empowered scorching ray followed by an empowered quickened (through instant metamagic) scorching ray gives a staggering potential 36d6 damage. even if you miss half of the time, that is still an average of 63 damage
Sisyfos 12-05-03, 08:02 PM	"As a counterspeller, here's a great tactic for when you are going up against verifiable spellcaster threats (and taking into consideration your 14th level). 2. Ready an action to counterspell." Hmm... I thought that reactive counterspelling means that I do not need to ready an action to counterspell. I can just do my normal action and if I need to counterspell later on the round I can do that and just lose my next round's action instead. I will take a spell like those sphere spells you spells you suggested though. How could I have wasted my movement action like that before? Smirk. "once you've finished out incantatrix, take some archmage. Mastery of counterspelling with reactive counterspell is really nice. The other abilities are nice also, and you could just shoot for the classic wiz5/incantatrix10/archmage5. I do not have the requisites for archmage... that mastery of counterspelling would have been a great ability though. That PrC has high requirements but I am starting to think that I should have gone for it. as far as tactics, casting an empowered scorching ray followed by an empowered quickened (through instant metamagic) scorching ray gives a staggering potential 36d6 damage. even if you miss half of the time, that is still an average of 63 damage A good call. I'll do that. You seem to be missing Alter Self in your spellbook. This has great defensive applications. It's really easy to have +6 natural armor. I noticed the beauty of alter self only after I already chose my spells. Its fly and defense in one packet. I'll take it. I will not use it all the time though for RP reasons. If it's not too late, I would drop Iron Will (your will save is through the roof already and 1 level of archmage regains your +2 bonus) and Improved Initiative (less important since you have reactive counterspell and persistent spell). Its not possible. Iron will is requirement for Incantatrix and Improved Initiative is requirement for reactive counterspelling. Without the counterspelling scheme I could have taken the requirements for the archmage, but I wanted to play the defensive concept and counterspelling fits that role perfectly. The advice you have given has been good and will boost my offensive capabilities. But what should I do to boost my defensive capabilities (not just defending myself, but the whole party). I want to be the supporting pillar which makes adventuring that much safer for the others... abjurer par excellence. Sisyfos
Bopple 12-05-03, 09:58 PM	You could have utilized Chain Spell for group buffing if you took Archmage path. Archmage's Arcane Reach ability give touch spells 30' of range, so you can apply Chain spell feat to spells like Greater Invisibility, Protection from spells, Displacement, etc.
Sisyfos 12-06-03, 02:57 AM	For a moment I thought that I had wasted an unique opportunity. Sadly arcane reach makes touch spells ranged touch spells. Chain spell cannot be used with any kind of touch spells.
Bopple 12-06-03, 11:51 PM	Why do you think Chain Spell cannot be applied to ranged touch spells? It states you can chain spells that specify a single target and have a range greater than touch. If you are not sure of 'a single target' part, let me show you the description of Split Ray in the same book. It states you can split any spell that specifies a single target and makes a ranged touch attack. So, 'a single target' doesn't mean the spells should be single 'target' spells - it just means a 'single' target spell compared to a 'mass' target spell. And of course ranged touch spells have the range longer than touch. All in all, there is no barring against chaining touch spells with Arcane Reach IMO. Edit) Also, there is a Reach Spell feat in Defenders of the Faith. It gives a touch spell range of 30', saying 'effectively becomes a ray'.
toomre 12-12-03, 01:42 PM	I will have to disagree with you Bopple. That possibility had occured to me too when I first responded in this thread, but I couldn't justify letting Arcane Reach make a touch spell qualify for Chain Spell. The reason being that the verbiage used for Arcane Reach is "The archmage can use spells with a range of touch on a target up to 30 feet away". Had it said "This ability changes the Range of all of the archmage's touch spells to 30 feet", as sublte as that distinction may seem, I would have agreed with you. It's a typical point of debate though, analogous to, or perhaps yet another instance of the "effectively" conundrum. As in many cases, this would be a DM call, and regardless of which way he/she rules, I wouldn't be able to in all fairness insist that it's absolutely incorrect.
Vainglory 12-12-03, 02:03 PM	I don't think I've ever seen this mentioned on the boards, but I've found it especially useful for my wizards, especially when I want to counterspell an opposed school. Empowered and/or Maximised Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel Magic. For an 8th level slot you can have empowered/maximised dispel which lets you dispel at 34th wizard with no dice roll. (20+10)*1.5= 45-11 = 34 This is especially nice with reactive counterspell or with instant metamagic of the incantrix, unless of course you have a DM that will throw 35th level casters at you just to spite you.
Sisyfos 12-12-03, 03:53 PM	That is a GREAT idea if it works. I need to check the empower etc. to see if it actually works. Meaning whether the dispel check is a numerical effect of the spell and can thus be empowered and/or maximized. If it can... great! Sisyfos
PhaedrusXY 12-12-03, 04:02 PM	Originally posted by Vainglory I don't think I've ever seen this mentioned on the boards, but I've found it especially useful for my wizards, especially when I want to counterspell an opposed school. Empowered and/or Maximised Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel Magic. For an 8th level slot you can have empowered/maximised dispel which lets you dispel at 34th wizard with no dice roll. (20+10)*1.5= 45-11 = 34 This is especially nice with reactive counterspell or with instant metamagic of the incantrix, unless of course you have a DM that will throw 35th level casters at you just to spite you. From the 3.5 SRD: EMPOWER SPELL [METAMAGIC] Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. An empowered spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level.In the 3.5 Player's Handbook it goes into more detail, explicitly listing the opposed check in Dispel Magic as something not affected by the feat. Also, Empower and Maximize don't stack like that. You Maximize the normal damage first, then roll for the extra damage from Empower.