Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SoulLord 01-09-04, 02:37 PM	i was toying around with the ragon disciple as to get the most damage possible and came up with this trying to do the most damage with a falchion 2d4 18-20 x2 any other weapons around with a decent crit range but higher multiplier? Human 1 sorcerer 1 (requ) 2 barbarian 1 ( rage +4str) 3 fighter 1 (extra feat) 4 fighter 2 5 barbarian 2 6 DD 1 7 DD 2 8 DD 3 9 DD 4 10 DD 5 11 DD 6 12 DD 7 13 DD 8 14 DD 9 15 DD 10 16 barbarian 3 17 fighter 3 18 ranger 1 19 ranger 2 20 ranger 3 feats weapon focus falchion power attack (PA) improved critical weapon falchion damage 2d4 threat 18-20(15-20) dmg from str 15 (thw) dmg from PA 32 (16 bab) total 47 # attacks 4 total without crits 8d4+188 all crits (8d4+188)*2 ------------------------------------------- i tried also the two weapon fighting tree but the total damage is higher for the two handed weapon tree * considering final str of (27 + 4 rage)=31 so any suggestions to increase this further also what feats would you add to round it up or what classes would you change (*trying to avoid xp penalty) SoulLord
Andreas0815 01-09-04, 03:06 PM	Well, you should think of replacing the Fighter and Sorc level with 3 Level of Bard. Same Bab, same HP, Inspire Courage (+1 Bab and damage), better saves (especial Will), and you can take it to 4 Bard level for second level spells (including cure spells, maybe on a wand) and another point of BaB... I really like Barb 2/Bard 3(4)/DD 10.
Andreas0815 01-09-04, 03:10 PM	Oh, and take the last 5 Level in Frenzied Berserk (Complete Warrior) for improved Powerattack.
SoulLord 01-09-04, 04:47 PM	i was thinking mainly of sorcerer for true strike but i can see the merit of going bard especially since they can cast in light armor with no penalty :) the only down side is that the 2nd level spells at bard 4 are 0 so unless you have a high ability score you are not getting many :( the spell list is nice tough SoulLord
Andreas0815 01-09-04, 04:52 PM	Well, you will get 7 bonus second-level spells via DD. :D Nice synergy here.
Andreas0815 01-09-04, 05:00 PM	And i think true strike isnīt really worth it. You loose one full attack for casting it and your enemie could get a attack of opportunity. Even with powerattack 4-5 attacks more are better than one attack that sure hits or with full powerattack on still has a good chance to hit.
MegaPlex 01-09-04, 05:21 PM	Take Sorerer simply for the Enlarge Person spell Grants +2 Str, 10 ft reach and increase weapon size one category Human 1 Barb 1 - Power Attack, Monkey Grip 2 Sorc 1 3 Barb 2 - Weapon Focus 4 Ftr 1 - Feat 5 Ftr 2 - Feat 6 DD 1 ... Monkey grip allows you to wield a weapon one size larger, so use a Large sized Greatsword (3d6 19-20/x2). When you cast Enlarge Person, your Greatsword increases to size Huge: 4d6 dmg
Kenkai 01-09-04, 05:53 PM	Originally posted by MegaPlex Take Sorerer simply for the Enlarge Person spell Grants +2 Str, 10 ft reach and increase weapon size one category Human 1 Barb 1 - Power Attack, Monkey Grip 2 Sorc 1 3 Barb 2 - Weapon Focus 4 Ftr 1 - Improved Critical 5 Ftr 2 - Feat 6 DD 1 ... Monkey grip allows you to wield a weapon one size larger, so use a Large sized Greatsword (3d6 19-20/x2) first of all improved critical requires BAB +8, you don't get that until DD6 if you use this build. try this instead: Human 1 Barb 1 - Exotic Weapon Proficiency (heavy falchion), Monkey Grip 2 Sorc 1 3 Barb 2 - Weapon Focus (heavy falchion) 4 Ftr 1 - feat 5 Ftr 2 - Feat 6 DD 1 - feat 7 DD 2 8 DD 3 9 DD 4 - feat 10 DD 5 11 DD6 12 DD7 - improved critical (heavy falchion) so at level 12 you deal 3d6 15-20/x2. you might also want to go with hexblade instead of sorc/fgt. hexblade10/DD10, simple but efficient. actually an interesting build idea could be: hex4/enforcer2/fgt2/DD10 could be a great combo. the enforcer is from dragon #310, its a lawful neutral paladin varient still gets divine grace. hex4/enforcer2 gives you double your charisma to saves against spells and spell-like effects. fighter2 gives you 2 free feats, you can switch fighter2 for rogue2 if you want, having evasion, mettle, and 2*cha is great synergy. Recommended feats: improved sunder (prereq for combat brute) power attack Combat brute Shock Trooper Monkey grip exotic weapon proficiency (heavy falchion) weapon focus (heavy falchion) Power critical all of those synergize well with this build. btw the heavy weapon property is found in Magic of Faerun, it basically increases the damage of a weapon by one size category (combined with monkey grip thats 2 sizes).
Murrax 01-09-04, 06:03 PM	Maybe not optimal but might be fun to use the DD's claws and bite... feats that would help imp natural attack (claw) imp natural attack (bite) multi attack full attack would look like bite = base damage + str 2 claws = damage of claw + 1/2str on each better than low level 2/weap fighter - probably have higher base damage than a 2weapon eventually for low BAB builds the DD gives good str bonus to help hit and both claws would only be at -2 from bab to hit from multi attack i believe after one imp natural attack on the bite it would go up into the 2dX range of damage with an enlarge person spell only problem would be overcoming DR in higher levels... maybe you would be doing enough damage it wouldn't matter though don't have books to check on all this though, but just a thought
Kenkai 01-09-04, 06:04 PM	another thing to note: the white dragonspawn template from the dragonlance campaign setting book grants +2 con +2 dex, +7 natural armor (wow), flight at twice land speed, claw and bite attacks, and a white breath weapon every 2d4 rounds. All of this for a measly +1 LA. ^^^^^^^thats awsome. best part is, your type becomes monstrous humanoid so you can still take DD! Although some of it might be redundant you still get all of the bonuses and the half-dragon template later. if you wear full plate your AC will be 25! (i'm pretty sure thats really high for lower levels?) just thought i'd point that out hehe.
SoulLord 01-12-04, 02:01 PM	on choosing a weapon * two handed weapon - damage ouput is greater than with other styles * high threat range - since the damage for str bonus is multiplied a high range is a + * critical multiplier - the higher the better * damage - usually i dont asign as much weight to this as most of the damage comes from the strenght of the user than of the weapon * simple, martial,exotic - i think if a good weapon is available its worth to spend a feat on it the one i like the best so far is the falchion 2d4 18-20 x2 is there a weapon like this? thw 1d8 18-20 x3 or x4 but the heavy falchion looks interesting... what book is it from? SoulLord
samoosa691 01-12-04, 05:46 PM	Originally posted by MegaPlex Take Sorerer simply for the Enlarge Person spell Grants +2 Str, 10 ft reach and increase weapon size one category Human 1 Barb 1 - Power Attack, Monkey Grip 2 Sorc 1 3 Barb 2 - Weapon Focus 4 Ftr 1 - Feat 5 Ftr 2 - Feat 6 DD 1 ... Monkey grip allows you to wield a weapon one size larger, so use a Large sized Greatsword (3d6 19-20/x2). [/B] correct me if i'm wrong but isn't a huge greatsword 2d8?
Kenkai 01-12-04, 05:52 PM	2d6 ---> 3d6 ----->4d6 ------>5d6 ----->etc.
Naramyth 01-12-04, 06:07 PM	In an old group of mine one player played a 1/2ogre into dragon disciple. The build went like 1/2 Ogre Barb2/Ftr2/Sorc1/DD10/(cant remember the last 4 levels, we stoped at 20th) He used a Greatsword with a buckler, fullplate and a big 'oll Mighty bow. He wound up with a 40str and a 28 con before adding in his belt of +6 Str and Con. He had the most hit points(close too 400 iirc) and took "Roll With It" (SS) several times so he had a DR of 8/-. He did about 40 damage a hit on average before Power Attacking. He was a true monster.
SmiloDan 01-12-04, 06:28 PM	Our party has a kender bard 3. I told him about dragon disciple and he is so thrilled! His feats so far are Extra Bardic Music and Lingering Song. He's going Bard 5/DD 10. What would be good feats for him? [edit] Naramyth: Your poor DM! :sad: Were the rest of you as monstrous? Egads!
Naramyth 01-12-04, 06:46 PM	I was a Psiwarrior using a longspear/battleaxe combo, using all the 3.0 chesse to the maxium effect. We also had a ftr/rogue/duelist/assassin and a rogue/shadowlord. The DM tried to kill us, and failed. He sent 2 23 level fighters with 26th level cleric at us, after a fight with 12 or so 12th level fighters at this woodland clearing at night. I Demention Doored in with my spear and the ogre-dragon thingy flew in with his bow. After a few rounds they were all dead. In we go into this tent with the high level characters. I crited on one fighter with by mindfeeder battleaxe, dumped it all into pshcofeedback and everyone else mopped up. After that an old shadow dragon flew in nocking the tent over us and breathed. I saved, full-power attacked with my axe, another crit on the first hit...broke out the caculator to determine damage, then the last two swings were even larger with all the power points dumped into feedback. :D That group was never played again.
Boondoggle 01-13-04, 06:33 AM	Originally posted by Kenkai 2d6 ---> 3d6 ----->4d6 ------>5d6 ----->etc. Not quite. 4d6 goes to 6d6, then 8d6. A 2d4 weapon advanced two sizes becomes a 3d6 weapon. Check table 2-2 pg 28 of the DMG. When dealing with weapon criticals, every 'point' of increase to threat range and critical multiplier is equal. In other words, a 20/x4 & a 18-20/x2 weapon give the same damage from criticals.
SoulLord 01-13-04, 02:14 PM	interesting what would be the best for dealing more damage on average so is an 18-20 x2 15% chance of double damage better than 19-20 x3 10% triple damage 20 x4 5% damage by 4 SoulLord p.s. i remember a statistical analisis somewhere anyone remembers that link?
MeepoTheMighty 01-13-04, 03:58 PM	18-20/x2 is equivalent to 20/x4 19-20/x2 is equivalent to 20/x3 Your 19-20/x3 weapon doesn't exist under core rules, though it could be a keen battleaxe or something like that. That would be more powerful than any of the threat ranges above.
Kenkai 01-13-04, 05:10 PM	Originally posted by MeepoTheMighty 18-20/x2 is equivalent to 20/x4 19-20/x2 is equivalent to 20/x3 Your 19-20/x3 weapon doesn't exist under core rules, though it could be a keen battleaxe or something like that. That would be more powerful than any of the threat ranges above. my math could be wrong but i think 19-20/x3 would be the same as 18-20/x2 and 20/x4. 18-20 x2 19-20 x3 20 x4 kinda makes sense that wyay ^^
SoulLord 01-13-04, 06:22 PM	following that line of logic perhaps the scythe is the weapon to go to two handed martial weapon scythe 2d4 x4 taking improved critical it would go 19-20 (10%) x4 two handed martial weapon falchion 2d4 18-20 x2 taking improved critical it would go 15-20 (30%)x2 *crunches some numbers* assuming one hits a 100 times times it hits without a critical * damage + times it hits with a critical * damage * crit multiplier <taking into account improved critical/> scythe would do (90*2d4) + (10*2d4 *4) = (90*2d4) + (40*2d4) =(130 * 2d4) falchion would do (70*2d4) +(30*2d4*4) =(70*2d4) + (120*2d4) =(190 * 2d4) * note * a change from a X2 to a X3 doesnt mean that x3 is the doule of the damage of the X2 ex: 1d8 X2 = 1d8 + 1d8 1d8 X3 = 1d8 +1d8 + 1d8 NOT 1d8 +1d8 +1d8 +1d8 SoulLord *edited to change falchion with improved critical to 30%*falchion
Boondoggle 01-13-04, 08:21 PM	15-20 is 30% on a d20. Your math is also incorrect. A crit with a falchion does x2, not x4. Consider it this way, a 20/x3 crit does twice as much critical damage (amount over the base damage) than a 20/x2. A 20/x4 crit is 3 times better than 20/x2. A 19-20/x2 crits twice as much and, therefore, does twice as much critical damage. A 18-20 does 3 times as much. Keen improves them both equally. A 19-20/x3 weapon crits twice as often and does twice as much damage, therefore doing 4 times the amount of crit damage a 20/x2 weapon would. One small assumption being made here that will affect the real outcome of the damage dealt (but not enough for any person to actually notice without serious study) is that criticals need to be confirmed. For extremely hard to hit creatures, a large crit range becomes less useful when you can rarely confirm the critical. If, at any point, the roll you need to mere hit the creature is more than the lowest range of your threat range, that part is wasted and lowers the overall effectiveness slightly. However, this usually only comes into play when a character has a very large crit range.
Kenkai 01-13-04, 10:31 PM	so basically, for every point of increased threat range from 20 (i.e. 19-20 is one point), it deals twice as much damage. also, for every one point of increased multiplier it deals twice as much damage (i.e. 20/x3 is twice as strong as 20/x2). makes sense. so 18-20/x2 = 3x as strong 19-20/x3 = 3x as strong 20/x4 = 3x as strong so i was right? ^_^ joy. hehe.
Boondoggle 01-14-04, 04:27 AM	Not quite... Re-read my post again. 19-20/x3 = 3x as strong This is incorrect. A 19-20/x3 weapon crits twice as often and does twice as much damage, therefore doing 4 times the amount of crit damage a 20/x2 weapon would. In this case, we're doing real math, not D&D math, doubling twice is, in fact, quadruple, not tripple.
SoulLord 01-14-04, 01:20 PM	lets do the rundown on the above weapons 19-20 x3 1d8 (10%) vs 20 x2 1d8 (5%) 19-20 x3 ------------------------- (90 X 1d8) + (10 X 1d8 X 3) = (90 X 1d8) + (30 X 1d8) = (120 X 1d8) 20 x2 --------------------- (95 X 1d8) + (5 X 1d8 X 2) = (95 X 1d8) + (10 X 1d8) =(105 X 1d8) if we look "only" at the critical damage it is triple; (30 X 1d8) vs (10 X 1d8) also Boondoggle you were right about the falchion with improved critical having a 30% chance to do a critical and not 25% 19-20 x2 ------------------------- (90 X 1d8) + (10 X 1d8 X 2) = (90 X 1d8) + (20 X 1d8) = (110 X 1d8) 20 x3 --------------------- (95 X 1d8) + (5 X 1d8 X 3) = (95 X 1d8) + (15 X 1d8) =(110 X 1d8) So yes in the long run each point of threat range equals a critical multiplier a final example a 15-20 x2 weapon is equal to a 20 x7 one (70 x 1d8) + (30 x 1d8 x 2) = (70 X 1d8) + (60 X 1d8) = 130 X 1d8 (95 x 1d8) + (5 X 1d8 x 7) = (95 X 1d8) + (35 x 1d8) = 130 X 1d8 I know theres no way to have a x7 critical multiplier but there are ways to have a 15-20 threat range SoulLord