3.5 Flying Cleric? [Archive] - Wizards Community

3.5 Flying Cleric? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Aceon
10-20-03, 05:21 PM All right, I am presenting this here, not as a build but more of a question or a "how to" challenge for the folks on this forum know the rules better than anywhere else:

Say you have a 5th level, plain Jane Cleric in 3.5, further...assume your campaign world to be low on magic items.

Say you want or need to fly over a deadly obstactle in your melee combat...in my case from the side of a cliff to the forest floor, but outside the area of our party druid's entaglement spell has temporarily tied up our ambushers.

You don't have fly on your spell list as a Cleric, and likely never will. You do have Summon Monster 3. As a Chaotic Good Cleric of Corellon Larethian I can summon a Celestial Hippogriff.

I notice that in the 3.5 DMG under special mounts the conditions or guidelines for the DM to consider are:

"Mount must be both Willing and Able."

I notice that the 3.5 PHB lists "Hippogriff Saddle" as an item for purchase. ( I call that ABLE)

A summon monster spell puts the summoned monster under your control. (which should satisfy the WILLING part)

The Monster Manual 3.5 gives training guidelines under Hippogriff.

With a summon monster spell you are never going to have 6 weeks to train a beast to be domesticated or combat trained.

However, I don't see why one could not summon a Hippogriff and ride it. Even if it was only by beckoning it with your hand to come and getting on and pointing.

What do you all think?

Is it a yes or a NO?

If not then later on perhaps the creature could be summoned as part of a Lesser Planar Ally spell. Trained and outfitted with saddle and such. Then summoned at will.

Let me know what you think as I almost never play spellcasters and Clerics even less so.

thanks in advance for the help.

Aceon
rilem
10-20-03, 05:35 PM Originally posted by Aceon
You don't have fly on your spell list as a Cleric, and likely never will....

From the SRD:

TRAVEL DOMAIN
Travel Domain Spells
1 Longstrider: Increases your speed.
2 Locate Object: Senses direction toward object (specific or type).
3 Fly: Subject flies at speed of 60 ft.

Travel's one of the most popular domains, so I think many "plain jane" clerics won't have a problem with this sort of situation. And you get Air Walk at 7th level.

Also note that the Air domain has gaseous form as a 3rd level spell.

Back to your suggestion: I don't think many DM's would allow using a summoned Hippogriff (or whatever) to serve as a mount; I wouldn't. Carrying a rider is a learned activity for most creatures (that's why you have to train them) and there's no reason to assume your summoned hippogriff would know how. It therefore fails the "able" test.

You might, however, be able to get the creature to carry you in its claws, assuming it can handle the weight. It is reasonable to assume that such creatures are accustomed to carrying prey in such a fashion.
toomre
10-20-03, 08:41 PM From the Handle Animal skill entry:
Task: "Push" an Animal
Handle Animal DC: 25“Push” an Animal: To push an animal means to get it to perform a task or trick that it doesn’t know but is physically capable of performing. This category also covers making an animal perform a forced march or forcing it to hustle for more than 1 hour between sleep cycles. If the animal is wounded or has taken any nonlethal damage or ability score damage, the DC increases by 2. If your check succeeds, the animal performs the task or trick on its next action.Special: You can use this skill on a creature with an Intelligence score of 1 or 2 that is not an animal, but the DC of any such check increases by 5. Such creatures have the same limit on tricks known as animals do.

So you need a make a handle animal check against DC 30 to ride an untrianed but willing Hippogriff.

btw. this is a CO question, doesn't really belong on this forum.
Lago AM3P
10-21-03, 12:59 AM You've also got 'air walk', yo'.
Jeryg
10-21-03, 07:44 AM and wind walk...
Aceon
10-21-03, 10:56 AM Originally posted by rilem
From the SRD:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TRAVEL DOMAIN
Travel Domain Spells
1 Longstrider: Increases your speed.
2 Locate Object: Senses direction toward object (specific or type).
3 Fly: Subject flies at speed of 60 ft.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Travel's one of the most popular domains, so I think many "plain jane" clerics won't have a problem with this sort of situation. And you get Air Walk at 7th level.

Also note that the Air domain has gaseous form as a 3rd level spell.

Thanks, Good for some I suppose but not for me.

You may not have noted but I am an elven Cleric of Corellon Larethian, and the travel Domain has only Farrlaughanllin-grrrahhh-whatever as the only deity who handles that domain.

And as for the Air Domain. I really want it! But, It has some Obad-Hai guy. ...again, not my guy. Certainly it is something to keep in mind for the future if I ever play a Cleric again, or switch gods. But I don't see that happening, switching gods seems kind of gauche.

Anyway, I heard that you can continue to summon the exact creature every time, same hippogriff maybe?

If that is true...couldn't I one day use summon planar ally to train the beast and get him outftted with saddle?

Or is that way off base?
Funny Slaughter
10-21-03, 11:27 AM how about a potion of fly? or is this to simple?

or buy a wand and let your wizzy or rogue cast it for you.

celerity-prestigedomain would be a possibility later on.

gs
Funny
rilem
10-21-03, 11:29 AM You can call a specific creature with planar ally (though you might not get it). I'd say it's certainly a more flexible spell that can get you some smarter help.

But again, why would you want it? Planar Ally requires both an XP and gold cost, and by the time you can cast it you can also cast air walk (it's a standard 4th level cleric spell) that will get you past these sorts of obstacles. Planar Ally is probably the more flexible and powerful spell, but for basic problems like these, you don't need such assistance.

Plus, you don't really want to carry that saddle around everywhere, do you?
Lord Arkhaven
10-21-03, 11:33 AM If you're playing in the Forgotten Realms or allow that material into your game you can be an Aasimar. The feat to take is Celestial Bloodline. Then you can take Outsider Wings that allow flight.

Both feats are from Races of Faerun.
Aceon
10-21-03, 12:38 PM Originally posted by Funny Slaughter
how about a potion of fly? or is this to simple?

or buy a wand and let your wizzy or rogue cast it for you.

celerity-prestigedomain would be a possibility later on.

gs
Funny

Thank you, but it is in fact too simple. We appear to be playing in a nearly zero magic items world, or at least or current (5th -6th level) access to such is nearly zero. The campaign so far has been entirely wilderness encounters.

Also we are restricted by the DM to only such books as say the following: "3.5" So, there are a lot of limitations in that respect.

As for our wizzy casting it for me...that could work, eventually. Except for 2 minor problems:

1) I am tying to be self reliant.

Our party and players are way too stupid to cooperate. When the other 2 casters ran out of spells they complained about how they couldn't do anything in combat. This while we had several masterwork longspears in a Handy Haversack! (good place for them)

2) The other casters are multi-class: Monk/Wis and Cleric/Wis (aspiring Mystic Theurge) So it may be a while before they can cast fly or craft wand. Even still, I get the feeling our DM will not let anyone make a magic item in the wilderness. No magic supplies and such. (Your gold pieces won't just magically transform into magical supplies and then into a wand.)

So, thanks for all the assistance. It seems like my best resort is to wait for Air Walk.

thank you,

PS: There has been several mentions of other domains...Do I take your meaning to be that I can eventually get access to more domains? How is that done? By PrC only? Right now we can't DoTF or any other class book unless and untill it says "3.5" on it. Is there another way to gain more domains? I sure would love the Air or Water domain (Horrid Wilting Rocks!)
Funny Slaughter
10-21-03, 01:41 PM as Josephkell stated there are updates for the splat-books at living greyhawk (http://www.living-greyhawk.com/)

gs
Funny
Aceon
10-21-03, 04:35 PM Thank you! Thank you! Thank You!

Thank you very much!
catharz
10-22-03, 01:07 AM Originally posted by Funny Slaughter
as Josephkell stated there are updates for the splat-books at living greyhawk (http://www.living-greyhawk.com/)

gs
Funny

Wow, amazing. Thanks, Funny! Finally a solution to the 3.5 Sacred fist dilemma, etc. That update PDF is great.
WCrawford
10-22-03, 05:04 AM Originally posted by toomre
From the Handle Animal skill entry:

So you need a make a handle animal check against DC 30 to ride an untrianed but willing Hippogriff.

btw. this is a CO question, doesn't really belong on this forum.

Celestial Hippogriffs have an Intelligence of 3, so the handle animal skill will not work on them. See the Celestial template.

Perspnally, I would allow a summoned creature to serve as a mount for the duration of the spell, but neither you nor the creature would be able to attack with out a MAJOR ride check.
toomre
10-22-03, 11:09 AM Originally posted by WCrawford
Celestial Hippogriffs have an Intelligence of 3, so the handle animal skill will not work on them. See the Celestial template.

Thanks for the correction, I had never noticed that "Intelligence is at least 3" part in the celestial template. Yeah, you're right, Handle Animal wouldn't apply. Like you said, Ride is the more appropriate skill in this case, and a check would be rolled only when trying to accomplish one of the tasks listed in that skill's description, with either a -5 for riding bareback.
Aceon
10-22-03, 11:24 AM Still, I have heard that one can actually summon the same creature every time if one so wishes.

So, I plan to remedy the bareback part when I get to a point where I can eventually cast lesser planar ally.

I want to actually call the creature physically to the prime.

Give it a real nice saddle as a gift and send it back.

Then in future when I summon it ...it will be already saddled!
Funny Slaughter
10-22-03, 11:56 AM did you ever thought about posting this idea on the creativity-forum for strange ideas instead of here?

summoning a monster for a few rounds, put a saddle on it and let it vanish again, summon it and ride over something, is it only me who finds this a bit elaborated?

air walk is such a nice spell, its simple to cast, you do not need to have ranks in ride and you wont need loads of summon-spells as well as there is no need for a saddle.

just to point out that yu put your question on the min/max-board...

gs
Funny
Aceon
10-22-03, 01:44 PM Yeah, I know where I put my question. Thanks for the assist.

While I may not be a min/max purist in the strictest sense, I don't believe Character Optimization is limited to builds only.

I believe that a creative way to maximize a character's potential is Optimization. For that reason min/max people -who have a vast command of the rules at their fingertips, are best qualified to say yes or no on the validity of some method.

I think the potential of what I am attempting to do should be obvious. My char is just reaching 6th level and doesn't yet even have the Air Walk spell. There is no magic available and the Wizzy's in the party are multi-class and won't have extra fly spells available for me soon. And even if they did...they would probably use it on their own character to get to where they want to go.

My idea is at least a way that I can get from point A to point B.

Also, If I only need 1 round of flight, then the monster can fight for me for the next 5 rounds-air walk does not do that.

Also, if I cast Air Walk, once I reach the appropriate level for it...then that means I have one less of my highest level spells available. Why would I want to do that?

Lastly, the Planar Ally idea is that I could Lesser Planar Ally today. Get the Hippogriff saddled today. And then Summon Monster 3 tomorrow or next month or at any time later and he would show up with the saddle on.

PS: Funny- I took your advice and checked out the Living Greyhawk thing. Thank you. But I can't seem to locate anything that makes me think my DM will view the conversions as WOTC 3.5 approved. But thanks anyway!
toomre
10-22-03, 02:51 PM You can't summon a specific hippogriff (or anything) with the summon monster spells, you only pick the kind of creature.
You choose which kind of creature to summon, and you can change that choice each time you cast the spell.A flexible DM that allows specific monsters to be called is asking for trouble. Cause then summon spells will be used to summon pre-buffed creatures, creatures with unusually high hit points for their HD (whose high hit points you've discovered from previous castings), creatures you have pre-equipped with tools of battle like barding, or creatures that are carrying backup equipment or gold for you (a monster who's normally kept safe in your keep, preloaded with backup spellbooks, etc).
Creatures could also be used to deliver weapons, one could pre-load them with alchemist's oil, or some toxic substance, summon and then "use" them.
You'd also have to come up with mechanics for resolving multiple summon effects on the same creature, just like you do with multiple mental control effects.

In your low level, low magic world, you just might have to ride your summoned hippogriff without a saddle, or saddle it after it's been summoned, if you have enough time.
Aceon
10-22-03, 03:26 PM Well thanks for all the cool ideas and abuses!

The Druid player in my party has informed me of the "specific monster" summoning part. I don't know exactly where that came from. I suspect it may be a throwback to 3.0. But so far, our DM has gone along with it, since the Druid has been summoning the same exact creature when he wants to.

Still, if it comes back to it and the DM rules NO, then you are right, I will have to ride bareback. (as I am sure it would take longer than 6 seconds to saddle the beast!)

**I did just recently get a confirmation email from Wizards Customer service which supports my interpretation of summoning and riding a flying mount.

regards,

Aceon
rilem
10-22-03, 04:03 PM Originally posted by Aceon

**I did just recently get a confirmation email from Wizards Customer service which supports my interpretation of summoning and riding a flying mount.

Sounds like the WOTC lab monkeys have gotten free and are answering e-mails again. The company's customer-service folks, though well-meaning, have been spectacularly wrong before.

Regardless, it doesn't matter what WOTC says if your DM's cool with it. While you're able to, I'd suggest making liberal use of toomre's suggested abuses — never be without an item again; just summon your swiss-army hippogriff! (Don't use them all at once, though, or your DM will get wise).
Boondoggle
10-22-03, 04:29 PM A celestial hippogriff will have an int of 3. That is enough to communicate and, IMO, enough to willingly allow the cleric who summoned it climb on its back and carry him.
Aceon
10-23-03, 11:52 AM I should clarify:

WOTC said sure you can summon and ride it.

They did not say you can summon the same, exact monster.
(I did not ask.)

All I will want to do is to summon the thing with saddle. Once anyone starts to summon a pre-buffed, tricked out, magic item laden monster...I am pretty sure my DM will wise up to it and shut the whole thing down.
Funny Slaughter
10-23-03, 12:48 PM the only thing is that there is no difference between a summened monster with a saddle and one with anything else.

summened monsters also do not get out of nowhere when you call them, i strongly doubt that a celestial hippogriff which is an intelligent being is really feeling good with a saddle on its back.
so even when you could summon a specific monster (and i doubt this unless proved otherwise) the beast will strip off the saddle after returning to his homelands.
hehe, maybe he sends some friend to whack the bad bad cleric who tortured him so badly beyond the bound of the summoning :)

gs
Funny
toomre
10-23-03, 01:30 PM Yeah, and the -5 for having no saddle only comes into play if you're doing things like guiding it with your knees only, riding it into battle, and so on, not for casual riding across a chasm. So don't worry about getting the same one back each time, the saddle's not that important.
Aceon
10-23-03, 01:48 PM Originally posted by Funny Slaughter
i strongly doubt that a celestial hippogriff which is an intelligent being is really feeling good with a saddle on its back...

hehe, maybe he sends some friend to whack the bad bad cleric who tortured him so badly beyond the bound of the summoning :)

gs
Funny

tee he, very funny, funny! But I won't be laughing when :angel: shows up!

Ok! OK! I'll consider myself chastised, and end this thread.

regards,

Aceon
Funny Slaughter
10-23-03, 07:05 PM hehe, have fun *g*

gs
Funny
WCrawford
10-23-03, 07:37 PM Originally posted by Funny Slaughter
the only thing is that there is no difference between a summened monster with a saddle and one with anything else.

summened monsters also do not get out of nowhere when you call them, i strongly doubt that a celestial hippogriff which is an intelligent being is really feeling good with a saddle on its back.
so even when you could summon a specific monster (and i doubt this unless proved otherwise) the beast will strip off the saddle after returning to his homelands.
hehe, maybe he sends some friend to whack the bad bad cleric who tortured him so badly beyond the bound of the summoning :)

gs
Funny

Page 37 of the 3.5 DMG has a variant rule for summoning the exact same creature over and over, rather than a generic creature of a type.

The problem with giving a summoned creature an item, is that the item will remain when the summoning has ended. The only way to give the creature a permanent item is to call it (Lesser Planar Ally, Planar Ally, Gate, ect.)

Also, the spirit of the rule, IMO, is that this creature is a friend/ally and the summoner and creature have a working relationship.

Going with that assumption, on my part, I see no problem with giving a celestial hippogriff a saddle, barding, magic items, ect.
MikeN
10-23-03, 08:57 PM Easiest way for a flying cleric, besides Travel domain, Air domain, boots of flight, etc, is:

Aasimar with requisite feats
Half-Celestial/Half-Fiend with wings (it might be more now but who knows).
Fey'ri
Avariel
--and some other races as well...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Aceon 10-20-03, 05:21 PM	All right, I am presenting this here, not as a build but more of a question or a "how to" challenge for the folks on this forum know the rules better than anywhere else: Say you have a 5th level, plain Jane Cleric in 3.5, further...assume your campaign world to be low on magic items. Say you want or need to fly over a deadly obstactle in your melee combat...in my case from the side of a cliff to the forest floor, but outside the area of our party druid's entaglement spell has temporarily tied up our ambushers. You don't have fly on your spell list as a Cleric, and likely never will. You do have Summon Monster 3. As a Chaotic Good Cleric of Corellon Larethian I can summon a Celestial Hippogriff. I notice that in the 3.5 DMG under special mounts the conditions or guidelines for the DM to consider are: "Mount must be both Willing and Able." I notice that the 3.5 PHB lists "Hippogriff Saddle" as an item for purchase. ( I call that ABLE) A summon monster spell puts the summoned monster under your control. (which should satisfy the WILLING part) The Monster Manual 3.5 gives training guidelines under Hippogriff. With a summon monster spell you are never going to have 6 weeks to train a beast to be domesticated or combat trained. However, I don't see why one could not summon a Hippogriff and ride it. Even if it was only by beckoning it with your hand to come and getting on and pointing. What do you all think? Is it a yes or a NO? If not then later on perhaps the creature could be summoned as part of a Lesser Planar Ally spell. Trained and outfitted with saddle and such. Then summoned at will. Let me know what you think as I almost never play spellcasters and Clerics even less so. thanks in advance for the help. Aceon
rilem 10-20-03, 05:35 PM	Originally posted by Aceon You don't have fly on your spell list as a Cleric, and likely never will.... From the SRD: TRAVEL DOMAIN Travel Domain Spells 1 Longstrider: Increases your speed. 2 Locate Object: Senses direction toward object (specific or type). 3 Fly: Subject flies at speed of 60 ft. Travel's one of the most popular domains, so I think many "plain jane" clerics won't have a problem with this sort of situation. And you get Air Walk at 7th level. Also note that the Air domain has gaseous form as a 3rd level spell. Back to your suggestion: I don't think many DM's would allow using a summoned Hippogriff (or whatever) to serve as a mount; I wouldn't. Carrying a rider is a learned activity for most creatures (that's why you have to train them) and there's no reason to assume your summoned hippogriff would know how. It therefore fails the "able" test. You might, however, be able to get the creature to carry you in its claws, assuming it can handle the weight. It is reasonable to assume that such creatures are accustomed to carrying prey in such a fashion.
toomre 10-20-03, 08:41 PM	From the Handle Animal skill entry: Task: "Push" an Animal Handle Animal DC: 25“Push” an Animal: To push an animal means to get it to perform a task or trick that it doesn’t know but is physically capable of performing. This category also covers making an animal perform a forced march or forcing it to hustle for more than 1 hour between sleep cycles. If the animal is wounded or has taken any nonlethal damage or ability score damage, the DC increases by 2. If your check succeeds, the animal performs the task or trick on its next action.Special: You can use this skill on a creature with an Intelligence score of 1 or 2 that is not an animal, but the DC of any such check increases by 5. Such creatures have the same limit on tricks known as animals do. So you need a make a handle animal check against DC 30 to ride an untrianed but willing Hippogriff. btw. this is a CO question, doesn't really belong on this forum.
Lago AM3P 10-21-03, 12:59 AM	You've also got 'air walk', yo'.
Jeryg 10-21-03, 07:44 AM	and wind walk...
Aceon 10-21-03, 10:56 AM	Originally posted by rilem From the SRD: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRAVEL DOMAIN Travel Domain Spells 1 Longstrider: Increases your speed. 2 Locate Object: Senses direction toward object (specific or type). 3 Fly: Subject flies at speed of 60 ft. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Travel's one of the most popular domains, so I think many "plain jane" clerics won't have a problem with this sort of situation. And you get Air Walk at 7th level. Also note that the Air domain has gaseous form as a 3rd level spell. Thanks, Good for some I suppose but not for me. You may not have noted but I am an elven Cleric of Corellon Larethian, and the travel Domain has only Farrlaughanllin-grrrahhh-whatever as the only deity who handles that domain. And as for the Air Domain. I really want it! But, It has some Obad-Hai guy. ...again, not my guy. Certainly it is something to keep in mind for the future if I ever play a Cleric again, or switch gods. But I don't see that happening, switching gods seems kind of gauche. Anyway, I heard that you can continue to summon the exact creature every time, same hippogriff maybe? If that is true...couldn't I one day use summon planar ally to train the beast and get him outftted with saddle? Or is that way off base?
Funny Slaughter 10-21-03, 11:27 AM	how about a potion of fly? or is this to simple? or buy a wand and let your wizzy or rogue cast it for you. celerity-prestigedomain would be a possibility later on. gs Funny
rilem 10-21-03, 11:29 AM	You can call a specific creature with planar ally (though you might not get it). I'd say it's certainly a more flexible spell that can get you some smarter help. But again, why would you want it? Planar Ally requires both an XP and gold cost, and by the time you can cast it you can also cast air walk (it's a standard 4th level cleric spell) that will get you past these sorts of obstacles. Planar Ally is probably the more flexible and powerful spell, but for basic problems like these, you don't need such assistance. Plus, you don't really want to carry that saddle around everywhere, do you?
Lord Arkhaven 10-21-03, 11:33 AM	If you're playing in the Forgotten Realms or allow that material into your game you can be an Aasimar. The feat to take is Celestial Bloodline. Then you can take Outsider Wings that allow flight. Both feats are from Races of Faerun.
Aceon 10-21-03, 12:38 PM	Originally posted by Funny Slaughter how about a potion of fly? or is this to simple? or buy a wand and let your wizzy or rogue cast it for you. celerity-prestigedomain would be a possibility later on. gs Funny Thank you, but it is in fact too simple. We appear to be playing in a nearly zero magic items world, or at least or current (5th -6th level) access to such is nearly zero. The campaign so far has been entirely wilderness encounters. Also we are restricted by the DM to only such books as say the following: "3.5" So, there are a lot of limitations in that respect. As for our wizzy casting it for me...that could work, eventually. Except for 2 minor problems: 1) I am tying to be self reliant. Our party and players are way too stupid to cooperate. When the other 2 casters ran out of spells they complained about how they couldn't do anything in combat. This while we had several masterwork longspears in a Handy Haversack! (good place for them) 2) The other casters are multi-class: Monk/Wis and Cleric/Wis (aspiring Mystic Theurge) So it may be a while before they can cast fly or craft wand. Even still, I get the feeling our DM will not let anyone make a magic item in the wilderness. No magic supplies and such. (Your gold pieces won't just magically transform into magical supplies and then into a wand.) So, thanks for all the assistance. It seems like my best resort is to wait for Air Walk. thank you, PS: There has been several mentions of other domains...Do I take your meaning to be that I can eventually get access to more domains? How is that done? By PrC only? Right now we can't DoTF or any other class book unless and untill it says "3.5" on it. Is there another way to gain more domains? I sure would love the Air or Water domain (Horrid Wilting Rocks!)
Funny Slaughter 10-21-03, 01:41 PM	as Josephkell stated there are updates for the splat-books at living greyhawk (http://www.living-greyhawk.com/) gs Funny
Aceon 10-21-03, 04:35 PM	Thank you! Thank you! Thank You! Thank you very much!
catharz 10-22-03, 01:07 AM	Originally posted by Funny Slaughter as Josephkell stated there are updates for the splat-books at living greyhawk (http://www.living-greyhawk.com/) gs Funny Wow, amazing. Thanks, Funny! Finally a solution to the 3.5 Sacred fist dilemma, etc. That update PDF is great.
WCrawford 10-22-03, 05:04 AM	Originally posted by toomre From the Handle Animal skill entry: So you need a make a handle animal check against DC 30 to ride an untrianed but willing Hippogriff. btw. this is a CO question, doesn't really belong on this forum. Celestial Hippogriffs have an Intelligence of 3, so the handle animal skill will not work on them. See the Celestial template. Perspnally, I would allow a summoned creature to serve as a mount for the duration of the spell, but neither you nor the creature would be able to attack with out a MAJOR ride check.
toomre 10-22-03, 11:09 AM	Originally posted by WCrawford Celestial Hippogriffs have an Intelligence of 3, so the handle animal skill will not work on them. See the Celestial template. Thanks for the correction, I had never noticed that "Intelligence is at least 3" part in the celestial template. Yeah, you're right, Handle Animal wouldn't apply. Like you said, Ride is the more appropriate skill in this case, and a check would be rolled only when trying to accomplish one of the tasks listed in that skill's description, with either a -5 for riding bareback.
Aceon 10-22-03, 11:24 AM	Still, I have heard that one can actually summon the same creature every time if one so wishes. So, I plan to remedy the bareback part when I get to a point where I can eventually cast lesser planar ally. I want to actually call the creature physically to the prime. Give it a real nice saddle as a gift and send it back. Then in future when I summon it ...it will be already saddled!
Funny Slaughter 10-22-03, 11:56 AM	did you ever thought about posting this idea on the creativity-forum for strange ideas instead of here? summoning a monster for a few rounds, put a saddle on it and let it vanish again, summon it and ride over something, is it only me who finds this a bit elaborated? air walk is such a nice spell, its simple to cast, you do not need to have ranks in ride and you wont need loads of summon-spells as well as there is no need for a saddle. just to point out that yu put your question on the min/max-board... gs Funny
Aceon 10-22-03, 01:44 PM	Yeah, I know where I put my question. Thanks for the assist. While I may not be a min/max purist in the strictest sense, I don't believe Character Optimization is limited to builds only. I believe that a creative way to maximize a character's potential is Optimization. For that reason min/max people -who have a vast command of the rules at their fingertips, are best qualified to say yes or no on the validity of some method. I think the potential of what I am attempting to do should be obvious. My char is just reaching 6th level and doesn't yet even have the Air Walk spell. There is no magic available and the Wizzy's in the party are multi-class and won't have extra fly spells available for me soon. And even if they did...they would probably use it on their own character to get to where they want to go. My idea is at least a way that I can get from point A to point B. Also, If I only need 1 round of flight, then the monster can fight for me for the next 5 rounds-air walk does not do that. Also, if I cast Air Walk, once I reach the appropriate level for it...then that means I have one less of my highest level spells available. Why would I want to do that? Lastly, the Planar Ally idea is that I could Lesser Planar Ally today. Get the Hippogriff saddled today. And then Summon Monster 3 tomorrow or next month or at any time later and he would show up with the saddle on. PS: Funny- I took your advice and checked out the Living Greyhawk thing. Thank you. But I can't seem to locate anything that makes me think my DM will view the conversions as WOTC 3.5 approved. But thanks anyway!
toomre 10-22-03, 02:51 PM	You can't summon a specific hippogriff (or anything) with the summon monster spells, you only pick the kind of creature. You choose which kind of creature to summon, and you can change that choice each time you cast the spell.A flexible DM that allows specific monsters to be called is asking for trouble. Cause then summon spells will be used to summon pre-buffed creatures, creatures with unusually high hit points for their HD (whose high hit points you've discovered from previous castings), creatures you have pre-equipped with tools of battle like barding, or creatures that are carrying backup equipment or gold for you (a monster who's normally kept safe in your keep, preloaded with backup spellbooks, etc). Creatures could also be used to deliver weapons, one could pre-load them with alchemist's oil, or some toxic substance, summon and then "use" them. You'd also have to come up with mechanics for resolving multiple summon effects on the same creature, just like you do with multiple mental control effects. In your low level, low magic world, you just might have to ride your summoned hippogriff without a saddle, or saddle it after it's been summoned, if you have enough time.
Aceon 10-22-03, 03:26 PM	Well thanks for all the cool ideas and abuses! The Druid player in my party has informed me of the "specific monster" summoning part. I don't know exactly where that came from. I suspect it may be a throwback to 3.0. But so far, our DM has gone along with it, since the Druid has been summoning the same exact creature when he wants to. Still, if it comes back to it and the DM rules NO, then you are right, I will have to ride bareback. (as I am sure it would take longer than 6 seconds to saddle the beast!) **I did just recently get a confirmation email from Wizards Customer service which supports my interpretation of summoning and riding a flying mount. regards, Aceon
rilem 10-22-03, 04:03 PM	Originally posted by Aceon **I did just recently get a confirmation email from Wizards Customer service which supports my interpretation of summoning and riding a flying mount. Sounds like the WOTC lab monkeys have gotten free and are answering e-mails again. The company's customer-service folks, though well-meaning, have been spectacularly wrong before. Regardless, it doesn't matter what WOTC says if your DM's cool with it. While you're able to, I'd suggest making liberal use of toomre's suggested abuses — never be without an item again; just summon your swiss-army hippogriff! (Don't use them all at once, though, or your DM will get wise).
Boondoggle 10-22-03, 04:29 PM	A celestial hippogriff will have an int of 3. That is enough to communicate and, IMO, enough to willingly allow the cleric who summoned it climb on its back and carry him.
Aceon 10-23-03, 11:52 AM	I should clarify: WOTC said sure you can summon and ride it. They did not say you can summon the same, exact monster. (I did not ask.) All I will want to do is to summon the thing with saddle. Once anyone starts to summon a pre-buffed, tricked out, magic item laden monster...I am pretty sure my DM will wise up to it and shut the whole thing down.
Funny Slaughter 10-23-03, 12:48 PM	the only thing is that there is no difference between a summened monster with a saddle and one with anything else. summened monsters also do not get out of nowhere when you call them, i strongly doubt that a celestial hippogriff which is an intelligent being is really feeling good with a saddle on its back. so even when you could summon a specific monster (and i doubt this unless proved otherwise) the beast will strip off the saddle after returning to his homelands. hehe, maybe he sends some friend to whack the bad bad cleric who tortured him so badly beyond the bound of the summoning :) gs Funny
toomre 10-23-03, 01:30 PM	Yeah, and the -5 for having no saddle only comes into play if you're doing things like guiding it with your knees only, riding it into battle, and so on, not for casual riding across a chasm. So don't worry about getting the same one back each time, the saddle's not that important.
Aceon 10-23-03, 01:48 PM	Originally posted by Funny Slaughter i strongly doubt that a celestial hippogriff which is an intelligent being is really feeling good with a saddle on its back... hehe, maybe he sends some friend to whack the bad bad cleric who tortured him so badly beyond the bound of the summoning :) gs Funny tee he, very funny, funny! But I won't be laughing when :angel: shows up! Ok! OK! I'll consider myself chastised, and end this thread. regards, Aceon
Funny Slaughter 10-23-03, 07:05 PM	hehe, have fun g gs Funny
WCrawford 10-23-03, 07:37 PM	Originally posted by Funny Slaughter the only thing is that there is no difference between a summened monster with a saddle and one with anything else. summened monsters also do not get out of nowhere when you call them, i strongly doubt that a celestial hippogriff which is an intelligent being is really feeling good with a saddle on its back. so even when you could summon a specific monster (and i doubt this unless proved otherwise) the beast will strip off the saddle after returning to his homelands. hehe, maybe he sends some friend to whack the bad bad cleric who tortured him so badly beyond the bound of the summoning :) gs Funny Page 37 of the 3.5 DMG has a variant rule for summoning the exact same creature over and over, rather than a generic creature of a type. The problem with giving a summoned creature an item, is that the item will remain when the summoning has ended. The only way to give the creature a permanent item is to call it (Lesser Planar Ally, Planar Ally, Gate, ect.) Also, the spirit of the rule, IMO, is that this creature is a friend/ally and the summoner and creature have a working relationship. Going with that assumption, on my part, I see no problem with giving a celestial hippogriff a saddle, barding, magic items, ect.
MikeN 10-23-03, 08:57 PM	Easiest way for a flying cleric, besides Travel domain, Air domain, boots of flight, etc, is: Aasimar with requisite feats Half-Celestial/Half-Fiend with wings (it might be more now but who knows). Fey'ri Avariel --and some other races as well...