Post/Author/DateTime	Post
J011yroger 07-17-03, 06:32 AM	It seems to me like 3.5 was a huge shot in the arm for those 2 handed "its clobbberin time" type fighters, with power attack giving 2 for 1's with 2 handers, and whirlwind letting you get a shot at everything in reach... im surprised at the lack of mega damage builds popping up with awesome charge damage and whirlwinds. imp focus and specialization as well. Dwarves maintain full speed in heavy armor *DrooL* For the first time in a long time FTR 20 is lookin real appealing and with every book that comes out they get better. Ill post my 3.5 dwarven blender/tank Ftr 20 in a bit just have a few more wrinkles to iron out...but what do you fellas think? Time to show them wizards and clerics who wears the armor in the group J
Talen Lee 07-17-03, 06:44 AM	The Cleric. And he still wears it better than the fighter.
A Man In Black 07-17-03, 07:13 AM	Feats still aren't better than self-buffs, and the versatility and power of clerical magic totally overwhelms the fighter at pretty much every level, even before considering non-core PrCs and spells. Playing a ftr20 has more gimmicks now, granted, but fighters are still outdone in their core specialty by clerics.
Wyrd 07-17-03, 07:15 AM	Only a fighter with a ring of antimagic-field can win :D
A Man In Black 07-17-03, 07:17 AM	Originally posted by Wyrd Only a fighter with a ring of antimagic-field can win :D ...or, you know, you could abuse the magic item rules. Magic items are suspended in an antimagic field, so it's kind of hard to make a ring of antimagic-field.
J011yroger 07-17-03, 07:30 AM	Yea but now with most of the good buff spells durations cut down the cleric isnt all day strong for all day long, so for one prepared fight the cleric would come out on top but he just doesnt have the staying power anymore without going persistant. J
Wyrd 07-17-03, 07:35 AM	Originally posted by A Man In Black ...or, you know, you could abuse the magic item rules. Magic items are suspended in an antimagic field, so it's kind of hard to make a ring of antimagic-field. Not when its an item that casts antimagic field 5 times/day ... a continuous item won't work, that's right.
Neonsamurai 07-17-03, 07:58 AM	Originally posted by J011yroger Yea but now with most of the good buff spells durations cut down the cleric isnt all day strong for all day long, so for one prepared fight the cleric would come out on top but he just doesnt have the staying power anymore without going persistant. J wrong. the best buffs still stay the same persistent divine favor persistent divine power persistent righteous might greater magic weapon and magic vestment just kick in tidbits later, these 1-2 points really don't kick it. instead of empowered/maximized statbuffs you will now see lots of clerics with quickened endurance / bull's strength / cat's grace. but even without the stat boost spells the cleric still is vastly superior to a plain fighter.
A Man In Black 07-17-03, 08:03 AM	Originally posted by J011yroger Yea but now with most of the good buff spells durations cut down the cleric isnt all day strong for all day long, so for one prepared fight the cleric would come out on top but he just doesnt have the staying power anymore without going persistant. Eh. Divine Might and Persistant Spell aren't changed in any significant way. Same with Beads of Karma. The cleric tank got a bit weaker, but he's still only a tiny bit weaker than the fighter in straight combat, before his domains and spells. The fighter may be a tad bit better in mid levels, but he's still only comparable to the cleric at early levels and totally overshadowed at late ones. As for a command-word magic item that casts a 6th-level spell...eh. Abusing the magic item creation rules to balance the game still isn't a solution; that fighter is still relying on a 11th level wizard to make him a magic item that costs 118,800 gold. As well as a GM willing to ALLOW a command-word item with such a high-level spell. As well as a party who doesn't mind their tank shutting off all their magic when he dives into the fray. Gimmicks don't beat versatility.
[Discorporation] 07-17-03, 09:42 AM	He got a bit tougher. Divine Power now gives a +6 enhancement bonus to strength, removing the need for an extended bulls strength. Righteous Might now gives a +8 unnamed bonus to strength and a +4 unnamed bonus to Constitution. Divine Favour is unchanged.
Neonsamurai 07-17-03, 09:51 AM	Originally posted by [Discorporation] Righteous Might now gives a +8 unnamed bonus to strength and a +4 unnamed bonus to Constitution. HOLY COW :eek:
[Discorporation] 07-17-03, 09:55 AM	Originally posted by Neonsamurai HOLY COW :eek: My reaction and facial expression exactly :D (You have to check your height on a table to see if you grow to large size. If you do, you get all the benefits of being Large as well) :D
scorpion1666 07-17-03, 09:58 AM	:eek: nice.
Wizard 07-17-03, 10:09 AM	Righteous Might is Mighty Righteous!
Oh Well... 07-17-03, 12:10 PM	Not to alarm anyone - I don't see this happening but what if Persistant Spell got nerfed? Would the cleric still out-melee the fighter?
Boondoggle 07-17-03, 05:22 PM	The spells have been changed to boost str rather than affect BAB, so you won't have the last itterative attack.
rilem 07-17-03, 05:31 PM	Originally posted by Oh Well... Not to alarm anyone - I don't see this happening but what if Persistant Spell got nerfed? Would the cleric still out-melee the fighter? Persistent spell, as far as I know, isn't in the 3.5 books at all — meaning the ToB and DotF versions stay. The only way 3.5 could have remedied these kind of combos is to make Divine Favor, et al, touch spells — making them unusable with Persistent Spell. I haven't heard of such a change however, and I'm pretty sure you would have heard the shouting by now if something like that was included. ADDENDUM — Ah, wait ... upon rereading your query I see it was hypothetical: You're asking what happens when, say, The Complete Cleric gets released in early 2004 and Persistent Spell is deleted or changed? That'd be a pretty big hit for melee/archer clerics, I agree, though they'll still kick butt for one-fight scenarios.
J011yroger 07-17-03, 06:04 PM	yea archer clerics allready got stung with the no more arrow/bow enhancement bonuses stacking, also by the time your casting divine power most fighters already have enhancement bonuses that high, and Righteous might still rocks, but you are talkin lvl 17 before your casting it Also even though the persistant buffs would give them comprable stats (better for the cleric at higher lvl) i still dont think in actual combat the cleric could match the damage output of the charging cleaving whirlwinding spring attacking etc. fighter. but i guess well find out when we give the new rules a whirl J
A Man In Black 07-17-03, 06:59 PM	Originally posted by J011yroger yea archer clerics allready got stung with the no more arrow/bow enhancement bonuses stacking, also by the time your casting divine power most fighters already have enhancement bonuses that high, and Righteous might still rocks, but you are talkin lvl 17 before your casting it Also even though the persistant buffs would give them comprable stats (better for the cleric at higher lvl) i still dont think in actual combat the cleric could match the damage output of the charging cleaving whirlwinding spring attacking etc. fighter. but i guess well find out when we give the new rules a whirl The problem is, clerics have this nice track of spells to make persistant, on top of free feats from domains and all the niceties of being a primary spellcaster. Withough using divine favor/divine power/righteous might, the cleric is already almost as good a meleer as the fighter himself. Add in the power and versatility of clerical magic, both for buffing (the cleric AND the rest of the party) and for anything else, plus powerful abilities like Divine Might, you hardly need Persistant Spell cheese to make the cleric overshadow the fighter. And, frankly, as a member of the party, I'd rather have a cleric in the party to tank than a fighter ANY day.
J011yroger 07-17-03, 07:43 PM	Originally posted by A Man In Black Withough using divine favor/divine power/righteous might, the cleric is already almost as good a meleer as the fighter himself. I must be missing something... i know magic vestement is still 1 hour/lvl but most other buffs are 1 min/lvl, and what percentage of your spell slots are going to be devoted to combat buffs what would be a fair comparison standard DMG equipment and make lvls 1,5,10,15 and 20? i understand that the cleric has far more utility, but id like to actuallly see on paper the actuall melee capabilities of each...think that would be a fair comparison if i was to draw it out, and see who had it better at what lvls? J
Boondoggle 07-17-03, 07:48 PM	Cleric's can cast brambles. That alone makes them deal more damage than a fighter.
J011yroger 07-17-03, 08:07 PM	Originally posted by Boondoggle Cleric's can cast brambles. That alone makes them deal more damage than a fighter. Thats why i wanted to write it out and see round by round because in the round it takes to cast a buff spell (whatever it may be) the fighter has allready charged into battle and done however much damage, putting the cleric behind... now if it was one of those "OK the BBEG is behind this door lets fire ourselves up and let him have it" situations then we could look at the totally buffed cleric, but on a standard adventure (at least the ones i play in, or DM) the party doesnt know excatly when the fights are going to start so you either run into the situation where the cleric buffs himself/the party and is like "lets go hurry hurry hurry ive only got 7 minutes" or the "Uh-Oh there they are, you guys start without me and ill be along shortly" situation. BTW as a side note what % of your spells do you guys who play clerics use for buffs, cuz most that i play/play with/DM use maybe 25% of there spell slots for buffs J
A Man In Black 07-17-03, 08:12 PM	Originally posted by J011yroger I must be missing something... i know magic vestement is still 1 hour/lvl but most other buffs are 1 min/lvl, and what percentage of your spell slots are going to be devoted to combat buffs what would be a fair comparison standard DMG equipment and make lvls 1,5,10,15 and 20? i understand that the cleric has far more utility, but id like to actuallly see on paper the actuall melee capabilities of each...think that would be a fair comparison if i was to draw it out, and see who had it better at what lvls? I'd need an idea of what I have access to. If FR is open, the variety of crazy domains means that the cleric is going to take a wide lead, but limiting it to Greyhawk (especially limiting it to the PHB deities) narrows the gap. If you want a really simple answer, the cleric lags a HP at each level and a BAB at every third, but gets great will saves, two free "feats" at first level, and clerical spellcasting. Feats eventually reach diminishing returns. Clerical spells don't. By the way...Brambles, the weaker version of the two spells, only lasts 1 rd/level. Spikes, however, lasts 1 hr/level, so a cleric can concievably cast it before an adventure and never need to recast for the remainder of the day, especially if Extended.
J011yroger 07-17-03, 08:34 PM	I cant go with the simple answer BC the stat arrays will be different so although in the d10 vs d8 the cleric lags a HP/LVL the fighter will likely have a higher con widening the gap same with BAB the fighter will have higher STR to start, and yes spells get exponentially more powerful but the origional intent of the post was that with the variety of new feats and abilities the fighter was now a viable character to completion at ftr 20 whereas before you had to dive into a PRC asap.... For comparison purposes lets say the standard 25 point buy standard races...core and splatbooks and ill say use FR aswell because although it will give the cleric an edge i think it will be partially offset by some of the crazy FR feats I may be full of sh.... uh... Hooey, but it will be fun to find out once again we are talking meele combat capability noone (well at least not me is disputing the utility of the cleric) so who makes the best front line fighter at lvls 1,5,10,15,20 Ftr or cleric if i may borrow the phrase "Lets Get Ready to Rumble" J
J011yroger 07-17-03, 08:37 PM	oops forgot to add... standard DMG gold for equipment J
RabidWeasel 07-18-03, 05:05 AM	Hm, I thought the new animal growth was nice, but righteous might blows it out of the water! Are there any domains that give access to this spell? I'm thinking that it's just what a melee druid needs to get an extra edge (wildshape into something huge, righteous might and animal growth boosts you to colossal size). It is a short duration, personal-only, 5th level spell though so I suppose it should be pretty powerful. Since standing up from prone now gives an AOO, fighter builds focused on tripping could be effective even against a melee cleric.
J011yroger 07-18-03, 06:45 AM	Yea combined with enlargement making you large combat reflexes and the knockdown chain is pretty stout with a 20' threat range and a spiked chain which give what, 77 controlled squares, and with most anything moving within provoking an Aoo, and what fighter doesnt do more than 10 points of damage per hit so they all end up on the floor (provided your trip attack succedes) and next round when they try to stand up you get another aoo, and they hit the floor again....throw in LaiC just in case you fail a trip attack. "Can I play an anthromorphic Baleen Whale with a ring of enlarge and a spiked chain?" J
jonas_lind 07-18-03, 07:12 AM	A figher is hands down the strongest melee combatant of the two, if you consider core rules only. Which is what really should be compared...only if you use splat-books, does the cleric become more powerful, because of some obvious to gawd broken combos. Consider that the cleric's main ability score will be wis, con, str where it for fighters will be con, str, dex (IMO at least). that alone will give the fighter at least 2 more hp pr level, plus added damage. As they increase in lvl this will increase to 3 and 4/lvl as cleric will add ability bonusses to wis and fighter will add it to con. he'll have far better attack, unless you start throwing quickened spells around which you don't for at leatst 80% of all playing chars, since they are below 11th level. He'll have enough combat versatility to just sunder, trip of do whatever nasty attack he'll need, to take the monsters down...he'll fare better if grappled (higher str, higher bab), and in general be better to adapt his melee style due to much higher feat selection. He'll do more damage pr swing (either +3 when spec or +5 when imp spec due to highter str as well). And he'll have more attacks due to higher bab. His ac might be a tad lower, than the cleric, but his HP will more than make up for that...plus he'll probably (and rightfully) get the best armor the group finds, in which case his AC might be just as good. the figher is good to go round after round after round (which is what matters since most dnd scenarios are not about the cleric vs figter but about fighter vs monsters or cleric vs monsters). the cleric is not much more effective than the bard unless he uses all those nifty buffs, which might last ONE combat out of what..3 , 4, 5, and take some preptime prior to combat, which MIGHT make him comparable to the fighter...for just that combat...but after that, it's back to bardish fighting abilities again. jonas
Funny Slaughter 07-18-03, 09:00 AM	ok, somebody put up the fighter at the given levels and i will build a cleric that outshines him. gs Funny
scorpion1666 07-18-03, 09:20 AM	"Oh look, he's a big buffed up cleric." says the evil caster. [targeted disspell on cleric] Say bye-bye to your persistent spells for the day. Then hit the party with a couple of small little encounters. That could be a solution to an evil DM's perspective of getting around the cleric and letting the tank do what he's made to do. But then again, to each their own and a bad arse cleric always helpful. =) =)
Boondoggle 07-18-03, 04:46 PM	Scorpion, first, the BBEG will have less than a 50% chance to dispel each spell due to the bead of karma. Second, if it's between a targeted dispel and, say, enervation, I'll take the dispel.
Dunbar 07-18-03, 04:54 PM	Not to mention that said cleric could have a ring of counterspells (a bargain at 4,000gps) and cast dispel magic into it...making your first targetted dispel magic worthless. So now you cast it twice, and remove half (maybe less with the Karma bead) of the cleirc's buffs. Can't you think of 2 other 3rd or less level spells to cast that will do the BBEG more good in a fight than just removing half of the cleric's buffs? I know I can. If by buffing the cleric is doing this much good as far as distracting enemy spellcasters, he's already pulling his weight.
chris7476 07-18-03, 05:00 PM	Well this thread has turned into Ftr vs. Cleric. How about some good Ftr-only ideas? Sure, a buffed-up cleric is nice but there are many situations when that's not possible. A Ftr is still the master of just picking up a weapon and bashing heads. No preparation needed. And 3.5 only enhances that. Plus, all the "Improved" feats got a nice boost: Trip, Disarm, Bull Rush, etc. The possibilites for the Ftr have increased a hundred-fold.
J011yroger 07-18-03, 05:20 PM	just got home from work...will fire up the fighter at given lvls... remember that the point is not the cleric all charged up for one encounter with 1 min/lvl spells, its constant melee combat ability, and damage against few powerful or many weak oponents. J
J011yroger 07-19-03, 07:31 AM	LVL 1 Human Fighter S 16 D 12 C 14 I 13 W 8 Ch 8 Feats: ExWP: Spiked Chain, Comb Exp, Imp Trip. Equipment: Spiked Chain, Chainmail. HP: 12 AC: 16 BAB: +1 Melee Attack: +4 atk/2d4+4 Trip Opposed Str: 7+d20 Gives Reach, decent damage, pretty good chance at tripping whatever you come across (unless its large) standing up from prone prevokes, or you suffer -4 to attacks and -4 to AC while on the ground. AC is weak but reach will help, Expertise aswell.
J011yroger 07-19-03, 07:58 AM	LVL 5 Human Fighter Sz Large S 18 D 13 C 14 I 13 W 8 Ch 8 Feats: ExWP: Spiked Chain, Comb Exp, Imp Trip, Knockdown, Dodge, Mobility. Equipment: Permenant Enlarge Person, gloves of dexterity+2, MW Spiked Chain, Full Plate. HP: 40 AC: 18 BAB: +5 Melee Attack: +9 atk/2d6+6 Trip Opposed Str: 12+d20 Reach is now 20' for a total of 77 controlled squares, decent damage,almost all attack hits will grant a free trip attempt, better chance at tripping whatever you come across with +to str and large size, standing up from prone prevokes, or you suffer -4 to attacks and -4 to AC while on the ground. AC is weak still but massive reach will help.
J011yroger 07-19-03, 08:32 AM	LVL 10 Human Fighter Sz Large S 20 D 13 C 16 I 13 W 8 Ch 8 Feats: ExWP: Spiked Chain, Comb Exp, Imp Trip, Knockdown, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Weapon Focus SC. Equipment: Permenant Enlarge Person, gloves of dexterity+2, Adamantine Spiked Chain +3, Full Plate +4 Belt Giant Str +2, Amulet of Health +2. HP: 85 AC: 22 BAB: +10/+5 Melee Attack: +17 atk/2d6+10 Trip Opposed Str: 13+d20 Reach is now 20' for a total of 77 controlled squares, whirlwind attack hits everything within reach (cant wait to try this in a real game) probably advisable to powerattack on whirlwinds using the 2 for 1s to get damage up to the fireball vicinity, decent damage,now all attack hits will grant a free trip attempt.... adamantine gives you the awesome sundering ability, and if your opponent has a nice weapon disarm it at your melee attack bonus +8, if you regularly fight weapon wielding opponents i would swap out WF for imp disarm and bump that to a total opposed roll of d20+29...gotta run now life becons, im doing this entirely from memory so im sure that if i hit the books, i could certainly do better with magic item selection and maybe switch around some feats...will work out the last 2 chars later. J
JosephKell 07-19-03, 07:18 PM	I think Permentant Enlarge Person plus Spiked Chain is just 15' reach. kind of like how doubling in D&D is really just adding the original amount back in. Otherwise it gets crazy fast.
J011yroger 07-19-03, 07:31 PM	Not so, reach weapons double the reach of large creatures as stated on page 113 and again on page 150 of the 3.5 PHB J
JosephKell 07-19-03, 07:35 PM	Fighter 1/Cleric of Kord 1 is getting better and better... Sure this Cleric isn't using Kord's Favored weapon.. but oh well...
Zoner 07-24-03, 05:07 AM	Don't forget that a weapon with the "spellblade" enchantment on it is basicly immune that spell. Since it specificly states that the spike on a spiked shield must be enchanted separately from the shield, just put the spellblade enchantment on the spide of the shield you're likely already using or are bashing with. Or else use the clawed glove type weapons. Either way, set one at dispel magic, one at greater dispel magic, and you can't be dispelled other than an AE dispel or Mordenkainen's DJ.
archcomponent 07-24-03, 09:50 PM	Well... I've always get the Complete Warrior to look forward to. If anything will make a fighter 20 a little more attractive, I'm hoping that will. I just hope that it sells successfully and the DM population comes to think of it as near-core, at least at the level of the splatbooks. Then again, depending on how its written, I'm sure folk will find a way to grab those high-level feats with a variety of classes. :P
J011yroger 07-25-03, 06:49 AM	I was under the impression that the complete * would be the new splatbooks for 3.5...perhaps i was mistaken though J
Borin 07-25-03, 11:36 AM	Originally posted by scorpion1666 "Oh look, he's a big buffed up cleric." says the evil caster. [targeted disspell on cleric] If the evil spellcaster is dispelling the cleric, he just wasted his round in which he could have tried to kill someone. Remember, dispelling isn't an automatic succes. And if the cleric gets dispelled, he can just fall back to being a cleric instead of a frontline fighter. And we don't need to build clerics and fighters from the ground up. We can just analyse the differences. *Persistant Divine Power (8th lvl slot). This essentially makes him a fighter, giving him fighter bab, +1hp/level (1d8+1 on average equals 1d10, so he has exactly fighter-hp), and gives a +6 enhancement bonus to Str (which frees up lots o'gold and an item slot). *Persistant Divine Favor (5th lvl slot). With this he gets attack/damage boni that add up to more than the fighter can get from his feats. *Spikes. Lots of damage (+10 at 10th level), and lasts about all day. *Greater Magic Weapon. Makes it a +5 weapon at 20th, so you could just buy/make a +1 flaming/shocking/whatever and still have a +5 weapon because of this spell. This really adds some damage, and again, lasts about all day. *Magic Vestment: same as Greater Magic Weapon, but for armor (or, if it is used, a shield). If the cleric has high Cha and feat slots left, you could add in the Divine Might. This cleric has better damage output than a fighter. But that fighter can get more tactical feats, which the clerics doesn't have that many feat slots for.
Moherajikuyx 07-28-03, 03:30 PM	As usual, it looks like that everyone's got his own opinion... Want to know what's true? You're welcome to try out if your build is powerful and survivable in the 3.5 Core Arena (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=69394)!