3.5 Maximum Sneak Attack [Archive] - Wizards Community

3.5 Maximum Sneak Attack [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Limit
02-21-04, 12:18 PM The current article on WoTC's site has had me thinking about Sneak Attack recently, so I'd like to bring up the age old topic of maximizing sneak attack. A lot of the old topics include 3.0 material, so I thought we might make a thread for Max SA based completely on 3.5 for those of us who don't have access to old material or campaign-setting derived material.

Sources for this thread:
3.5 Core (PHB, DMG, MM)
Complete Warrior
Book of Exalted Deeds
Miniatures Handbook
Draconomicon

If you havn't read the article, it is located here:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040217a
Limit
02-21-04, 12:19 PM Here is my first idea:

01. Rogue/1 BAB: 0, SA: 1d6, Feat: Two-Weapon Fighting
02. Rogue/2
03. Rogue/3 BAB: 2, SA: 2d6, Feat: Weapon Finesse
04. Rogue/4
05. Rogue/5 BAB: 3, SA: 3d6
06. Rogue/5, Assassin/1 BAB: 3, SA: 4d6, Feat: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword
07. Rogue/5, Assassin/1, Ronin/1 BAB: 4, SA: 5d6
08. Rogue/5, Assassin/1, Ronin/2
09. Rogue/5, Assassin/1, Ronin/3 BAB: 6, Feat: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
10. Rogue/5, Assassin/1, Ronin/4 BAB: 7, SA: 6d6
11. Rogue/6, Assassin/1, Ronin/4
12. Rogue/7, Assassin/1, Ronin/4 BAB: 9, SA: 7d6, Feat: Improved Initiative
13. Rogue/8, Assassin/1, Ronin/4
14. Rogue/9, Assassin/1, Ronin/4 BAB: 10, SA: 8d6
15. Rogue/9, Assassin/1, Ronin/5 Feat: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Bonus Feat: ???
16. Rogue/9, Assassin/1, Ronin/6
17. Rogue/9, Assassin/1, Ronin/7 BAB: 13, SA: 9d6
18. Rogue/9, Assassin/1, Ronin/8 Feat: Improved Critical
19. Rogue/9, Assassin/1, Ronin/9 Bonus Feat: ???
20. Rogue/9, Assassin/1, Ronin/10 BAB: 16, SA: 10d6

HD: 10d6 + 10d10
Skills: 8x4 + 8x8 + 4 + 2x10
Attacks: 16/11/6/1
TWF Attacks: 14/9/4/-1 14/9/4

If I'm not mistaken, total sneak attack possible at twenty is 70d6 then.

Also, I wasn't sure which of the ronin's bonus feats to use because they all seem archery / mounted oriented.

Any feedback on my idea is welcome! :)
nihility
02-21-04, 01:23 PM Check out this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=149454&highlight=maximize+sneak+attack) for discussion on the topic.
Stoned Golem
02-21-04, 02:08 PM Rogue 15/Invisible Blade 5 gives you +16 BAB and 11d6 SA

Rogue 11/Ronin 1/Assassin 3/Invisible Blade 5 is +16 BAB and 12d6 SA

That's all I can squeeze out of the allowed sources at the moment. The oriental stuff is a lot better for sneak attacks, and guild thief is nice too.

Ninja 5/Rogue 3/Assassin 3/Ronin 1/Guild Thief 3/Invisible Blade 5 is +17 BAB and 13d6 SA
Snow Savant
02-21-04, 04:44 PM An Arcane Trickster with 3 levels of Spellfilch (Dragonlance AoM) can get one Sneak Attack per day at +15d6. This is because of the class ability of Spellfilch-3. It could be higher using OA/Rokugan feats and such.

Otherwise, all other SA's are based on the Rogue and AT levels of the build.

XO,
Snow :cloud9:
Alkazhar_Ramierez
02-22-04, 12:48 AM Rogue 15/Invisible Blade 5 gives you +16 BAB and 11d6 SA

this would also give you the ability to feint in combat as a free action. Therefore you could max out your bluff skill and feint then go full attack and do SA damage every turn.
adiaven
02-22-04, 02:09 AM problem with feint to get SA in 3.5 is the bluff check is opposed by the target's BAB. So even with a really good bluff skill, it is normall going to be a 50/50 chance to feint them...
horndgod
02-22-04, 03:19 AM Originally posted by adiaven
problem with feint to get SA in 3.5 is the bluff check is opposed by the target's BAB. So even with a really good bluff skill, it is normall going to be a 50/50 chance to feint them...

I happen to think that's a stupid rule. Although I like that the BAB can be used to defend against being feinted, it would make more sense that both the bluffer and the defender apply their BABs. If being better at combat makes it easier to see feints, wouldn't being better at combat make it easier to feint someone else? It would still be harder to feint a powerful fighter, but would not be so difficult as 50/50 proposition. Assuming best case scenario, it would be about 40/20, which is still better than 20/1 for 3.0. Also, this would make Paladins the least likely to be bluffed, as they have good BAB and Sense Motive as a class skill, and that makes sense.
helicopter
02-22-04, 10:52 AM so few enemies in pre-published modules have sense motive skill ranks of any worth. i dont think the new 3.5 bluff rules are really that much more difficult.
Caelic
02-22-04, 11:03 AM I actually think it makes a great deal of sense. Being a great fighter doesn't necessarily mean you're going to be great at feinting--a Frenzied Berserker with a greataxe and a 16 BAB is not going to be exactly as good at feinting as, say, a rapier-armed duellist with a 16 BAB.

On the other hand, being a veteran warrior almost certainly means you've faced opponents who like to feint before, and are wise to their tricks; therefore, BAB makes perfect sense as a defense mechanism against feint.

It's certainly infinitely better than 3.0, where a Cleric or Bard was much better able to defend against a feint than a professional fighter.
Stoned Golem
02-22-04, 01:01 PM I think it would make more sense if you could use either your BAB or your sense motive modifier, or if the rogue could also add his BAB to the check. Right now the average rogue almost certainly has a lower chance of successfully feinting than a sorceror of equal level, and that doesn't make sense either.
snb1131
04-21-04, 12:37 PM If one were to use the Unearthed Arcana variant of generic classes, one could obtain +2d6 at 1st level, +3d6 at 8th level, and +4d6 at 15th level, thereby equalling the rogue's total sneak attack progression with only three feats. Of course, UA also stipulates that one "shouldn't also use the character classes in the Player's Handbook," but PrCs are allowed. I'm sure that you could really max out sneak attack this way.

For example, adding five levels of Invisible Blade will give +3d6 sneak, plus the ability to feint as a free action in combat.

Warrior5/Assassin2/Warrior1/Assassin1/IB5/Warrior1/ShadowThiefofAmn1/Assassin4/

1st (human) - Dodge
1st (warrior) - Sneak Attack (+2d6)
1st (level) - Mobility
2nd (warrior) - Improved Initiative
3rd (level) - Spring Attack
4th (warrior) - Persuasive (pre-req for Shadow Thief)
6th (level) - TWF
(6th assassin1): +1d6
8th (warrior6) - Improved Sneak Attack (+3d6)
9th (level) - ITWF
(9th - assassin3): +1d6
(10th - IB1): +1d6
12th (level) - GTWF
(12th - IB3): +1d6
(14th - IB5): +1d6
15th (level) - ???
15th (warrior) - Greater Sneak Attack (+4d6)
(16th - SToA1) - +1d6
18th (level) - ???
(18th - assassin5): +1d6
(20th - assassin7): +1d6

Total: Warrior7/Assassin7/InvisibleBlade5/ShadowThief1

Sneak Attack Die: 17d6...coupled with seven attacks from the TWF tree...this equals nasty damage!!!!!

I realize that the list at the original thread does not include UA, but I am assuming that, given the 3.5 nature of the post, I believe that UA was simply unreleased at the inception, so I have chosen to include it in this build.

EDIT: At some point, take the Deadly Precision feat from the XPH - it is a general, non-psionic feat which allows for rerolling any one on a sneak attack die (though you can only reroll each '1' once) - this would help immensely!
Borin
04-21-04, 12:43 PM Polymorph Any Object - Kelvezu (12hd Outsider)

A Kelvezu has under Special Attacks: +8d6 Sneak Attack
It also has +15 natural armor, str21 dex31, a fly speed, and is medium-size.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Limit 02-21-04, 12:18 PM	The current article on WoTC's site has had me thinking about Sneak Attack recently, so I'd like to bring up the age old topic of maximizing sneak attack. A lot of the old topics include 3.0 material, so I thought we might make a thread for Max SA based completely on 3.5 for those of us who don't have access to old material or campaign-setting derived material. Sources for this thread: 3.5 Core (PHB, DMG, MM) Complete Warrior Book of Exalted Deeds Miniatures Handbook Draconomicon If you havn't read the article, it is located here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040217a
Limit 02-21-04, 12:19 PM	Here is my first idea: 01. Rogue/1 BAB: 0, SA: 1d6, Feat: Two-Weapon Fighting 02. Rogue/2 03. Rogue/3 BAB: 2, SA: 2d6, Feat: Weapon Finesse 04. Rogue/4 05. Rogue/5 BAB: 3, SA: 3d6 06. Rogue/5, Assassin/1 BAB: 3, SA: 4d6, Feat: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword 07. Rogue/5, Assassin/1, Ronin/1 BAB: 4, SA: 5d6 08. Rogue/5, Assassin/1, Ronin/2 09. Rogue/5, Assassin/1, Ronin/3 BAB: 6, Feat: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting 10. Rogue/5, Assassin/1, Ronin/4 BAB: 7, SA: 6d6 11. Rogue/6, Assassin/1, Ronin/4 12. Rogue/7, Assassin/1, Ronin/4 BAB: 9, SA: 7d6, Feat: Improved Initiative 13. Rogue/8, Assassin/1, Ronin/4 14. Rogue/9, Assassin/1, Ronin/4 BAB: 10, SA: 8d6 15. Rogue/9, Assassin/1, Ronin/5 Feat: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Bonus Feat: ??? 16. Rogue/9, Assassin/1, Ronin/6 17. Rogue/9, Assassin/1, Ronin/7 BAB: 13, SA: 9d6 18. Rogue/9, Assassin/1, Ronin/8 Feat: Improved Critical 19. Rogue/9, Assassin/1, Ronin/9 Bonus Feat: ??? 20. Rogue/9, Assassin/1, Ronin/10 BAB: 16, SA: 10d6 HD: 10d6 + 10d10 Skills: 8x4 + 8x8 + 4 + 2x10 Attacks: 16/11/6/1 TWF Attacks: 14/9/4/-1 14/9/4 If I'm not mistaken, total sneak attack possible at twenty is 70d6 then. Also, I wasn't sure which of the ronin's bonus feats to use because they all seem archery / mounted oriented. Any feedback on my idea is welcome! :)
nihility 02-21-04, 01:23 PM	Check out this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=149454&highlight=maximize+sneak+attack) for discussion on the topic.
Stoned Golem 02-21-04, 02:08 PM	Rogue 15/Invisible Blade 5 gives you +16 BAB and 11d6 SA Rogue 11/Ronin 1/Assassin 3/Invisible Blade 5 is +16 BAB and 12d6 SA That's all I can squeeze out of the allowed sources at the moment. The oriental stuff is a lot better for sneak attacks, and guild thief is nice too. Ninja 5/Rogue 3/Assassin 3/Ronin 1/Guild Thief 3/Invisible Blade 5 is +17 BAB and 13d6 SA
Snow Savant 02-21-04, 04:44 PM	An Arcane Trickster with 3 levels of Spellfilch (Dragonlance AoM) can get one Sneak Attack per day at +15d6. This is because of the class ability of Spellfilch-3. It could be higher using OA/Rokugan feats and such. Otherwise, all other SA's are based on the Rogue and AT levels of the build. XO, Snow :cloud9:
Alkazhar_Ramierez 02-22-04, 12:48 AM	Rogue 15/Invisible Blade 5 gives you +16 BAB and 11d6 SA this would also give you the ability to feint in combat as a free action. Therefore you could max out your bluff skill and feint then go full attack and do SA damage every turn.
adiaven 02-22-04, 02:09 AM	problem with feint to get SA in 3.5 is the bluff check is opposed by the target's BAB. So even with a really good bluff skill, it is normall going to be a 50/50 chance to feint them...
horndgod 02-22-04, 03:19 AM	Originally posted by adiaven problem with feint to get SA in 3.5 is the bluff check is opposed by the target's BAB. So even with a really good bluff skill, it is normall going to be a 50/50 chance to feint them... I happen to think that's a stupid rule. Although I like that the BAB can be used to defend against being feinted, it would make more sense that both the bluffer and the defender apply their BABs. If being better at combat makes it easier to see feints, wouldn't being better at combat make it easier to feint someone else? It would still be harder to feint a powerful fighter, but would not be so difficult as 50/50 proposition. Assuming best case scenario, it would be about 40/20, which is still better than 20/1 for 3.0. Also, this would make Paladins the least likely to be bluffed, as they have good BAB and Sense Motive as a class skill, and that makes sense.
helicopter 02-22-04, 10:52 AM	so few enemies in pre-published modules have sense motive skill ranks of any worth. i dont think the new 3.5 bluff rules are really that much more difficult.
Caelic 02-22-04, 11:03 AM	I actually think it makes a great deal of sense. Being a great fighter doesn't necessarily mean you're going to be great at feinting--a Frenzied Berserker with a greataxe and a 16 BAB is not going to be exactly as good at feinting as, say, a rapier-armed duellist with a 16 BAB. On the other hand, being a veteran warrior almost certainly means you've faced opponents who like to feint before, and are wise to their tricks; therefore, BAB makes perfect sense as a defense mechanism against feint. It's certainly infinitely better than 3.0, where a Cleric or Bard was much better able to defend against a feint than a professional fighter.
Stoned Golem 02-22-04, 01:01 PM	I think it would make more sense if you could use either your BAB or your sense motive modifier, or if the rogue could also add his BAB to the check. Right now the average rogue almost certainly has a lower chance of successfully feinting than a sorceror of equal level, and that doesn't make sense either.
snb1131 04-21-04, 12:37 PM	If one were to use the Unearthed Arcana variant of generic classes, one could obtain +2d6 at 1st level, +3d6 at 8th level, and +4d6 at 15th level, thereby equalling the rogue's total sneak attack progression with only three feats. Of course, UA also stipulates that one "shouldn't also use the character classes in the Player's Handbook," but PrCs are allowed. I'm sure that you could really max out sneak attack this way. For example, adding five levels of Invisible Blade will give +3d6 sneak, plus the ability to feint as a free action in combat. Warrior5/Assassin2/Warrior1/Assassin1/IB5/Warrior1/ShadowThiefofAmn1/Assassin4/ 1st (human) - Dodge 1st (warrior) - Sneak Attack (+2d6) 1st (level) - Mobility 2nd (warrior) - Improved Initiative 3rd (level) - Spring Attack 4th (warrior) - Persuasive (pre-req for Shadow Thief) 6th (level) - TWF (6th assassin1): +1d6 8th (warrior6) - Improved Sneak Attack (+3d6) 9th (level) - ITWF (9th - assassin3): +1d6 (10th - IB1): +1d6 12th (level) - GTWF (12th - IB3): +1d6 (14th - IB5): +1d6 15th (level) - ??? 15th (warrior) - Greater Sneak Attack (+4d6) (16th - SToA1) - +1d6 18th (level) - ??? (18th - assassin5): +1d6 (20th - assassin7): +1d6 Total: Warrior7/Assassin7/InvisibleBlade5/ShadowThief1 Sneak Attack Die: 17d6...coupled with seven attacks from the TWF tree...this equals nasty damage!!!!! I realize that the list at the original thread does not include UA, but I am assuming that, given the 3.5 nature of the post, I believe that UA was simply unreleased at the inception, so I have chosen to include it in this build. EDIT: At some point, take the Deadly Precision feat from the XPH - it is a general, non-psionic feat which allows for rerolling any one on a sneak attack die (though you can only reroll each '1' once) - this would help immensely!
Borin 04-21-04, 12:43 PM	Polymorph Any Object - Kelvezu (12hd Outsider) A Kelvezu has under Special Attacks: +8d6 Sneak Attack It also has +15 natural armor, str21 dex31, a fly speed, and is medium-size.