Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sargas1 05-06-04, 02:13 PM	Can anyone suggest a build for my 3.5 gestalt character? I'm a bit at a loss here. :( Here are the ground rules laid out by the DM: - 3.5 ruleset - 28 point attribute buy - One of the classes MUST be Monk - Standard character classes only (at least, to start.) I have most of the books, and I assume that my DM does, but I'd like to keep this relatively simple. I know for sure that I can use prestige classes from Complete Warrior. So, any ideas or suggestions would be much appreciated! :)
Gol 05-06-04, 02:33 PM	I'd peronally go with Cleric, as it would synergize the best, with a couple levels of Fighter for some extra feats. Pick Dwarf for your race so you can get a good Con score (that 28 point buy isn't going to help you), or Aasimar for the wisdom bonus (+1 LA isn't bad for all the abilities you get from Aasimar). I'm not good a builds beyond level 10 or so, but there's not many places you can go wrong with a Monk/Cleric Gestalt build.
pokemaniacbill 05-06-04, 02:34 PM	Monk/Paladin. TWF goodness.
PhoenixInferno 05-06-04, 03:07 PM	I agree with the Monk/Paladin, but forget TWF, you'd be sickeningly dangerous enough with just your fists and flurry of blows. Another scary possibility would be Monk/Fighter - bonus feats up the wazoo.
pokemaniacbill 05-06-04, 03:09 PM	First epic-level feat is ALWAYS Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting. You have more attacks then you know what to do with... I came up with a character concept revolving around this. He had full ranks in 'Craft: Moisturizer' to keep his holy powers that came from his hands with full power.
James McMurray 05-06-04, 04:14 PM	Monk / Wizard would also be nice. Mage Armor and Shield will make you unhittable, while Arcane Strike will increase your damage greatly. Since you don't care about spell DCs you just need to make sure to get your casting stat up to the point where you can cast the spells for each level you gain. It makes you really hurt for stats though, because of the low point buy. The same will be true with Paladin because of the need to boost Charisma. Edit: removed sorcerer. Int will be a better secondary stat for skill points, and you'll get spell levels faster as a wizard. A 13 starting intelligence should be ok, as it'll ensure that you get 3rd level spells. By the time you need 4th level you should be able to beg, borrow, steal, or craft an item of +2 int. I would speicalize in abjuration and drop evocation. the secondary drop school should be based on flavor, but don't let it be Transmutation.
saetto 05-06-04, 04:55 PM	The monk is a class that wants a lot of high attributes to be maximally effective. Since you don't get to have that, my recommendation would be to select a second class that you can use to cover some of the weaknesses of monk with, and vice versa, without necessarily insisting you use all the monk toys. A monk gets several features that don't depend at all on a stat. Decent to good hit points, a good skill list with a fair number of skill points, all good saves, good speed, reasonable combat capabilities, and an assortment of bonus feats. I can envision several types of character that could benefit here. One would be a fighter. While you lose the AC bonuses and the flurry ability, your saves are much better than a stock fighter, you get more feats, and you're better-able to use non-spiked-chain reach weapons because you still have a very good weapon to use at close ranges. You can afford to do without a huge Wisdom at low levels as long as you armor up, but because you can derive benefit from fairly weak +Wis items, you speed the day when you can get rid of armor altogether and take advantage of all your abilities. If you go this route, consider picking up Shou Disciple for the Martial Flurry ability later on in your career. Another would be an arcane spellcaster. I recommend the wizard over the sorcerer here because the a high Int synergizes well with the strong combined skill list. Here, again, you care less about Wisdom because for a wizard a high armor class is just gravy -- what you really get out of the class is the saves, the hit points, Evasion, and so on. Since you weren't planning on wearing armor in the first place, you get the full benefit of fast movement and all the other monk toys right away. I think Cleric or Bard represent poor choices. Both have the same BAB progression as the monk, so neither class adds to it. Both already have two good saves, so the benefit there isn't as great as for classes with only one. Hit dice are either identical or very close, minimizing the benefit from gestalting. A Bard/Monk would be a nightmare in terms of attribute needs, and a cleric only slightly better. On the other hand ... a monk/druid sounds like it could be very tasty. The druid doesn't care about Strength and Dexterity once he wildshapes anyway, so stat dependency is limited to Wisdom and Con. Yes, it's true that the hit die, BAB, and saving throw progressions are identical, so you don't gain anything there, but the monk's default combat mode interacts extremely well with that of the wildshaped druid. Talk it over with your DM to make sure he or she will rule it in a way that's favorable to the character if you elect to go this route.
ZenRanger 05-06-04, 04:59 PM	my first shot at actually planning out a gestalt build, but here it goes (this is assuming you have to take full Monk20 as you mentioned)... 1. Monk1/Ranger1 2. Monk2/Ranger2 3. Monk3/Ranger3 4. Monk4/Ranger4 5. Monk5/Ranger5 6. Monk6/Ranger6 7. Monk7/Ranger7 8. Monk8/Ranger8 9. Monk9/Ranger9 10. Monk10/Ranger10 11. Monk11/Ranger11 12. Monk12/Ranger11/Kensai1 13. Monk13/Ranger11/Kensai2 14. Monk14/Ranger11/Kensai3 15. Monk15/Ranger11/Kensai4 16. Monk16/Ranger11/Kensai5 17. Monk17/Ranger11/Kensai6 18. Monk18/Ranger11/Kensai7 19. Monk19/Ranger11/Kensai8 20. Monk20/Ranger11/Kensai9 This will give you a pretty insane amount of attacks if you take the TWF tree with the ranger combat virtual feats. You get greater flurry and greater twf without spending a feat. You get ranger skill points which is better than monk, and once you go into kensai you can really start powering up your unarmed strikes with all sorts of bonuses and special abilities. pretty solid character all around. Another variation on this build would be to take Ranger 6/Fighter 4/Kensai 10, which would just require you to take GTWF with a fighter feat, this route actually might work better, as you can take weapon specialization in unarmed stike and get that 10th level of kensai. also allows you to use some wands and such of spells on the ranger list.
mean_liar 05-06-04, 10:41 PM	I think your best bet is a straight Human Monk20/Wizard20. STR 14 DEX 14 CON 10 INT 15 WIS 14 CHA 8 1 Imp Unarmed*, Stunning Fist*, Scribe Scroll*, Ability Focus (Stunning Fist), Power Attack 2 Combat Reflexes* 3 TWF 5 Quicken Spell* 6 Arcane Strike 9 Improved Natural Attack 10 Craft Wondrous Item* 12 Pain Touch 15 Maximize Spell*, Rapid Stunning 18 Imp TWF 20 Widen Spell* Your main focus is to be a Monk with a few utility spells early on, but later (level 6+), start TWF with your punches while using Arcane Strike in melee, Fireballs and other area-effect attacks otherwise. At levels 7+, look for cool things to Polymorph into, the larger the better. Each size increase will mean more monk unarmed damage; if you have the MM2 the Sun Giant is good but there are lots of Huge creatures to transform into. Obviously you'll be restricted by your HD, but think big, the bigger the better. In a pinch, you can always just turn into a Lammasu and firebomb your enemies from orbit. At higher levels (13+), your polymorphing into creatures with 26+ STR, Huge size, and wanton abuse of Arcane Strike and TWF should allow you multiple hits for high (obscene?) damage. And in tough cases, you always can retreat (Fly, Teleport) and bomb from a distance. Conceptually, a wizard's greatest weakness is in melee and grapples, a monk's greatest weakness is taking damage. I think with good spell choices you should be able to eliminate each class' major weaknesses. Invest in CON boosting items early and often.
RodIshiCi 05-07-04, 12:10 AM	If you want to deal a lot of damage, you could get the TWF chain and make FTR 5/ROG 15 as the other classes. If you aren't using fractionary BAB, that will allow full BAB (just pick the FTR levels at 1, 5, 9, 13, 17). I don't know how is the favored class for a Gestalt, but if you're allowed to have 2 favored classes or downright ignore this, pick a ranger or paladin level instead of FTR 5. Of course, there are prestige classes too if you're allowed. But that guy, with only Monk, Fighter and Rogue levels could ditch STR and CHA, and you could focus on CON and WIS alone, leaving INT as high as desired and DEX as high as the other scores allow. At level 20, you can deliver attacks at +18/+18/+18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3 with SA of +8d6 at each attack (and +2 with WS). Of course, you'd lose a lot of power against enemies not vulnerable to SA. Intuitive Strike (BoED) will allow you to use WIS instead of STR to hit.
Platinumwarlock 05-07-04, 05:16 AM	Contrary to what someone's said before, I highly recommend gestalting Cleric and Monk. As long as you have a relatively decent Str and Dex, you can pump Wisdom with impunity, raising the DCs for your spells and Stunning Fist, your AC, and your Will save, as well as quite a bit of your skills. In addition, the Cleric's spells make for a perfect complement to the Monk's abilities. Bull's Strength, Divine Favor and (the big one) Righteous Might will always help you become an absolute tank. Beyond this, if you have access to the BoED, you can pick the feat Insightful Strike to use your Wis modifier on attack rolls. There's no downside.... If you don't go with Cleric, I would choose Rogue second. The sneak attack damage, as well as the skills, make it for a very desirable combo. However, you won't have the normal damage capability that the Cleric/Monk will have, simply because you won't have access to the buffing spells. Sneak attack, yes, but that's only if you you get into a flanking situation...dicey, depending on the situation. A good combo, but Cleric/Monk is better.
Piraatje 05-07-04, 09:24 AM	Barbarian & Bard - Cant for alignment reasons Cleric + wis monkey, plenty of combat boostings - Bad armor synergy, low hp/skill/save synergy Druid + wis monkey, wild shape - low hp/skill/save synergy Fighter + small hp gain, better base, FEATS r US - Bad armor & overall stat synergy Paladin + Nice goodies & spells - Awful stat synergy Ranger + Bab, goodies, spells, skills - poor armor synergy Rogue +sneak attack, specials, skills, dex monkey - no hp/bab gains Sorceror + awesome armor synergy - extra stat Wizard + awesome armor synergy - extra stat ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Well, what do you want to play? :p Druid will probably be your best guess since you can wear a wild armor in wild shape and still get wis to AC, solving the druid's major problem. Oh, and you get all the monkey tricks too.
MoogleEmpMog 05-07-04, 10:06 AM	To me, Monk/Druid is simply the ultimate Gestalt. You can wild shape into a Huge creature. At 20th level, think about the kind of unarmed damage you'll be doing. That's not even mentioning the Wis/natural armor bonuses, or full offense/defense Wis spellcasting (with Greater Magic Fang, among others)... And, past mid-level, you wouldn't even need a decent Str, Dex or (depending upon your reading of wild shape) Con. Hence, PURE Wis.
Hubbs 05-07-04, 01:22 PM	Monk/Paladin is is a cool Gestalt. Good attacks, Good saves (not including any from a strong charisma), spells at later levels, -and- you're immune to fear! Always handy. Fist of Raziel is a great PrC to add, also. Your smites are all considered criticals, and you gain several bonus feats along the way.
MarkusH 05-07-04, 03:54 PM	Dwarven Fighter/Monk Gestalt ST: 16 DX: 14 CN: 16 WI: 14 IN: 8 CH: 6 For the first few levels, play as a fighter. Wear armor, carry a shield (or two handed sword), kick tail. You lose the wisdom AC bonus (a whole +2 at first level), flurry of blows (not that great early on), and fast movement (which you won't see until third level anyhow.) If you really want evasion, stick to light armors after first, but it's not that important early on. You will easily have the highest AC in the party for quite a while. You may want to use a polearm or other reach weapon for a while too. Poke them at range, then kick them if they get too close. The other option is the dwarven waraxe, which is going to be superior to your unarmed attack until 8th level. The big question is when do you shed the armor. Since you are going to be in a party of monks, you will almost certainly have first dibs on armor and non-monk weapons. Your armor is going to be superior to your AC bonus until quite high levels. Enhanced movement is nice, but not all that impressive until higher levels as well. The big thing you are giving up is flurry, which really comes into it's own somewhere around 9th-11th. 9th is where you get your flurry equal to your BAB, and your enhanced move finally reaches +30'. 11th is where you get greater flurry. By this point, you should have enough gold to start being able to buy magic items to boost your AC when unarmored anyway. My suggestion is to give up the armor somewhere around 9th, or when your magical options reach the point where running around unarmored is actually worthwhile.
Grim Sage 05-07-04, 04:22 PM	Biggest problem with Gestalts and (reasonably) low point-buy is stat synergy. Druid allows Str, Dex (and possibly Con depending on your view of the Wildshape/changing HP issue) as dump stats, doesn'require Int or Cha (generally the primary monk dump stats), and works great with Wis. Being Wildshaped most of the time you wouldn't get much use out of armor anyway, but you do get natural armor... stacking with your Wis bonus to AC. Hello, high AC. Also, take some Warshaper levels to improve your natural weapons some more.
saetto 05-07-04, 04:25 PM	Originally posted by Platinumwarlock Contrary to what someone's said before, I highly recommend gestalting Cleric and Monk. As long as you have a relatively decent Str and Dex, you can pump Wisdom with impunity, raising the DCs for your spells and Stunning Fist, your AC, and your Will save, as well as quite a bit of your skills. In a game where you can rely on having plenty of good stats, I think cleric/monk has more to recommend it. I'm still not a big fan of the combination, but with high stats it can be quite strong. For a 28-point buy campaign, though, I think it's a lose. If you go with an 18 Wisdom, that leaves you with enough points for a 14 Dex, 10 Str , Con & Cha, and an 8 Int. If you go with the more reasonable 16 Wisdom, you can get a 14 Dex, a 12 Con & Str, and 10 in Int and Cha. The real problem with cleric/monk is that the big bonus for monks with high Wisdom is not solely Wisdom-dependent; it's Wisdom and Dexterity dependent. Until you get to fairly high levels, you need excellent scores in both if you're going to match up to someone who just resorts to wearing armor. Get a guy with a chain shirt and a large shield and no Dex bonus at all; while not losing any movement and taking only a fairly small ACP, he has exactly the same AC as a monk/cleric with 18 Wis and 14 Dex. If you decide you want any kind of Str or Con bonus, it just gets worse. Having poorer defense is acceptable, but if you're doing that, you want either very good hit points (which you don't get from the hit dice, and can't afford to buy via high Constitution) or a focus on ranged attacks (which works against the monk's strengths) or enough offense to take things down before they can kill you (which you don't get with two 3/4 BAB classes and a cruddy Strength and not enough Charisma to bother with Divine Might). With none of these things, combat is going to be mighty risky.
Lord Likk 05-08-04, 04:16 AM	YOU CANNOT, I REPEAT CANNOT, TAKE A FLURRY OF BLOWS AND USE A TWF-CHAIN FEAT IN THE SAME FULL ATTACK ACTION. the monk class specifically stipulates this. now that i've got that monkey off my back, it seems to me that a druid variant from ua with monk would quite crucial. if you take the one that gives you wis to ac, you ought to be able to get 2 times wis to ac, as they are both unnamed bonus types.
pokemaniacbill 05-08-04, 04:17 AM	Can too, Lord Likk.
Dracophile 05-08-04, 06:45 AM	I second (or 3rd, or 4th) the Druid/Monk suggestion. This combo helps eliminate the monk's weaknesses in 1) stat requirements, 2) damage output (mitigated through huge wildshape) and 3) ranged damage
mean_liar 05-08-04, 08:34 AM	Some more comments... Adding in the Arcane Disciple (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040418a&page=3) feat as a Monk/Wizard allows access to Righteous Might if you take the War domain, or a bevy of healing spells with the Heal domain. Scribe Scroll should take care of the rest. You can definitely combine TWF and Flurry in v3.5. See this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=179686) for details, including confirmation from DnD's R&D dept. I still hold that a Monk/Wizard far outstrips a Monk/Druid or a Monk/Cleric for mayhem capabilities. Arcane Strike + Polymorph (later Shapechange) will easily outstrip any melee advantage held by either class, and the more versatile offensive capabilities of a Wizard mean that the Monk/Wizard can avoid many fights altogether that a Cleric or Druid would have to still face. Its more important as a meleeing Monk to have Size increases than it is to be wildshaped; or rather, the relatively slow progression of wildshape size increases compared to Polymorphing size increases discourages Druid as a 'quick path' to melee damage. Adding in Arcane Strike just pushes this further into the Wizard's territory. The Cleric offers little that the Monk requires. Divine Power is a good ability to have, but it is probably less powerful than Polymorph - the Strength increases from Polymorph (not to mention natural armor and size increases combined with Arcane Strike) will generate more damage and hits than Divine Power's minor increase to hit and +6 enhancement bonus to damage. Plus, the Wizard retains long range offensive capabilities, scrying, teleport, fly, enchantments, and a whole host of other capabilities that aren't 100% present in either the Druid or the Cleric. ... SUMMARY: Monk/Wizard. For certain.
Khazra 05-08-04, 12:07 PM	I dont know if your allowed to do this but doesnt one of the druid variants get bonuses as monk to AC? If your allowed be a hlaf-celestial or other wisdom increasing template. With an optimised wisdom (40) you would be getting a nice +30 to your AC from wisdom. Combine this with high dex (say 20), ring of protection +5, amulet of Na +5, bracers of armour +5 & the +10 from class levels. This puts you on an AC of 70!!! Other options (in my opinion) also consist of a rogue16/duelist 4. With a high Intelligence that bonus damage will be nice as will that sneak attack. I also like hexblade 16/ duelest 4 with a high intelligence and arcane strike. BURN all of your spells for extra damage. However the smite variant cleric/sacred fist would be cool. Righteous might, divine power & might. Who could resist a large size monk with a strength of around 40 flurrying for 6 attacks & against a BBEG using a smite with each attack. Dont forget an amulet of natural attacks for this character. I suggest speeded fists for 7 attacks a round. Last but not least
Lord Likk 05-08-04, 12:32 PM	pokemaniacbill and mean_liar: YOU CAN, I REPEAT CAN, USE FLURRY OF BLOWS AND A TWF-CHAIN FEAT IN TH SAME FULL-ATTACK ACTION. my newfound humility knows no bounds. khazra: i like your first suggestion; it reminds of my second, except for your attempt at racial min/maxing. whiling something subtle like the githzerai semms like it would be very nice for this, i doubt 1/2 celestial's wis bonus is enough to make 3 lvls worth it, since you don't get much else that's useful at all. in the end, putting any more than a cursory effort into min/maxing ac never seems to be worth it. too many potentially deleterious effects completely bypass ac altogether. personally, i suggest that you spend your money on other, more useful things, sargas1, but if 1 lvl can double your wis bonus to ac, i say go for it. also, i don't know if you're thinking of the 3.0 duelist, khazra, but the current official one gets no damage bonus whatsoever until lvl5, and 4 lvls in it will only add +4 to your ac, if you've got an 18 int. one more thing. the sacred fist will be re-published in less than a week, i believe, in the complete divine, and so i don't think we should recommend that anyone start any characters using the old version just yet. oh, and 7 attacks a round is nothing. as long as our friend sargas1 manages to get 16 b/a out of the side of his build that ain't monk, he'll have 6 attacks in a flurry. the twf chain will mean 9 of them. speed fists make 11. at lvl21, as many above posters have alluded through their drooling over this , he'll have 14 attacks per full attack, at no attack penalty, due to perfect 2 weapon fighting.
Khazra 05-08-04, 12:39 PM	oh, and 7 attacks a round is nothing. as long as our friend sargas1 manages to get 16 b/a out of the side of his build that ain't monk, he'll have 6 attacks in a flurry. the twf chain will mean 9 of them. speed fists make 11. at lvl21, as many above posters have alluded through their drooling over this , he'll have 14 attacks per full attack, at no attack penalty, due to perfect 2 weapon fighting. Don't reccomend this, no DM is crazy enough to allow this combination, especially as no1 really seems to know if its aloud. Also, there is no way to get 2 speeded fists that i know of & i think you can only get 1 benefit for it (same as haste) anyway.
pokemaniacbill 05-08-04, 12:49 PM	:D Go me. It's quite worth it to take it, ainit?