Post/Author/DateTime	Post
happymoocow 04-18-05, 12:14 AM	What are the best low level builds for a low level starting campaign? Say I start out around three and will never ever get past level 10 or so (if I do I'll just remake a character). Ranger 1 / Fighter 4 / Order of the bow intiate 5 seems good for archery. psychic warrior 10 seems good for melee Also Fighter 2/psychic warrior 2/Ranger, hexblade, or paladin 1/warmind 5 is good Fighter 10 for trip. Paladin 5 and any prestige class that improves the mount seems good. I think warlocks are good early levels after the second invocation (spear and shaken blast). The bard1/marshall1/bard1 for ultra high diplomacy if you play campaign books. There is a thread with 20 levels of this diplomacy build. Bard 10. Take Snowflake Wardance (Frostburn) at 3rd, Song of the Heart (Eberron) at 6th, and Arcane Strike (CW) at 9th. Take inspirational boost, master's touch and bladeweave (CAdv) as your spells, and after one round of buffing (inspire courage) you can attack at +18/+13/+18 with your bastard sword(!) for 1d10+7/1d10+7/daze (Will negates), more if you're willing to burn slots with arcane strike, more if you also take the time inspire greatness. Best of all, it's unlikely that your party-mates will feel upstaged, since you're also giving +4/+4 to attack/damage to everyone else. a human or goliath Barbarian1/fighter4/beastmaster5 could freak people out. A bunch of wolves with trip action scares me. What else is out there? I would like builds that will fly by any dm.
jstorrie 04-18-05, 12:29 AM	Cleric 10 is very powerful in many different ways. For example, a Cleric with the Elf domain can easily become a great archer at low levels; a Cleric with Planning or Undeath can get a lot of low-level mileage out of Persistent Spell. Ranger 2 / PsyWar 2 / Ftr 2 / Order of the Bow Initiate 4 is a powerful low-level archer build, too. Xephs make great low-level wizards - Psionic Shot plus Scorching Ray is pretty powerful at low levels, and Xeph wizards get it early.
rilem 04-18-05, 12:32 AM	You can't get into WarMind before level 6 -- Know (Psi) 8 ranks -- so It'd have to be Ftr2/Psyw3, or something similar
Talen Lee 04-18-05, 02:37 AM	Funnily enough, I was doing the same thing for an upcoming game. Wilder 5/Elocator 1/Slayer 4. Note that the level of Elocator is there because I like Scorn Earth, and that Slayer is perfectly adequate at 5. BAB of +8 at level 10, manifesting as a 9th level Wilder, and you bail out of Wilder before the class 'features' get too ghey. Illumian Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 5. Take Milita as your 1st-level feat, and your power Sigils should be Aesh and Krau. BAB +7, spellcasting at 9th level, and you can use stuff that doesn't give saves - Vampiric Touch, Enervation, stuff like that. Shifter Scout 5/Weretouched Master 5. The prefix can also be Rogue 3/Fighter 2, Barbarian 3/Fighter 2, Monk 1/Fighter 4, or a number of other possible options. Rogue 10. Because it's just stupidly good. Skill Mastery lets you do some broken things. Bard 1/Fighter 4/Warchanter 5. Specialisation, bonus feats, and the Warchanter music is absolutely brilliant. Warlock 10. Simple and effective. High enough caster level that you can have some neat spell-likes, and start taking the Empower or Ability focus feats. Bestow Curse at will as a Standard Action is sweeeet. Wizard 1/Druid 3/Mystic Theurge 2/Arcane Hierophant 4. Your companion is a monster. Take Natural Bond, or, if the DM allows it, Familiar Bond, and have someone with as many hit points as you fighting with half-a-dozen feats and abilities. Monk 3/Fighter 2/Warmind 5. Necessitates Elan, Kalashtar, or some other awakened race, and the Versatile feat to get the Knowledge (Psionics) ranks (Unless your DM rules that monks can swap it for Arcana).
Dain 04-18-05, 04:58 AM	Rogue 10. Because it's just stupidly good. Skill Mastery lets you do some broken things. Could you provide some examples of how a 10th level rogue is brilliant? I think that Rogue 10 is good, but I lack the insight that makes it stupidly good. Wizard 1/Druid 3/Mystic Theurge 2/Arcane Hierophant 4. Your companion is a monster. Take Natural Bond, or, if the DM allows it, Familiar Bond, and have someone with as many hit points as you fighting with half-a-dozen feats and abilities. You'd have a hard time finding a DM that would actually allow you to qualify for MT with Precious Apprentice. And even then, Arcane Hierophant requires BAB +4, which you don't have. - Dain
jstorrie 04-18-05, 05:13 AM	Precocious Apprentice to qualify for Mystic Theurge is, rules-as-written, perfectly fine.
happymoocow 04-18-05, 05:33 AM	-Some DMs interprete that Persistent spell + Divine metamagic doesn't work unless you are able to cast a spell slot of that level. Meaning only 0-3 level spells can you persistent. -Precocious Apprentice to meet the pre-requisite for mystic theurge also requires the DM's generous approval. I just think that it should be noted, because it's been debated in previous threads.
happymoocow 04-18-05, 05:47 AM	Illumian Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 5. Take Milita as your 1st-level feat, and your power Sigils should be Aesh and Krau. BAB +7, spellcasting at 9th level, and you can use stuff that doesn't give saves - Vampiric Touch, Enervation, stuff like that. I like this Gish.
Talen Lee 04-18-05, 10:17 AM	Could you provide some examples of how a 10th level rogue is brilliant? I think that Rogue 10 is good, but I lack the insight that makes it stupidly good.Well, see, play characters who can't use their int for two and a half years, and who natively get 2 skills a level. I am biased in this (these were, after all, builds I was considering for an upcoming game), but in a world where skills come up more than BAB, the rogue is king. You'd have a hard time finding a DM that would actually allow you to qualify for MT with Precious Apprentice. And even then, Arcane Hierophant requires BAB +4, which you don't have.You're quite right about the BAB (it's easy to make mistakes about sometimes). However, any one level in druid or wizard does the job. And I don't actually have a hard time finding DMs that allow Precocious Apprentice to qualify for Theurge. Sure, it's strong - but you usually only get one spell per round, so having access to more of them just makes you versatile. I find that specialists are so much more dangerous (3.0 Red Wizards may have furthered my bias). But thanks for the catch on the BAB, if nothing else. I like this Gish.I do too. The character I was actually considering goes by the name Kaodei, and speaks of himself as if he is the legendary Illumian. The truth of the matter was always going to be up to the DM, but the combination of AeshKrau, and Improved Power Sigils and Improved Sigil (Aesh) is really very good - better than Weapon Specialisation, in fact.
NateNate 04-18-05, 10:44 AM	Wizard 5/ EK 3/ Dragon Slayer 1/ Spellsword 1 It isn't as simple as the other gish build, but you can wear a Mithril Shirt and be good to go. You should buy a casting of Psychic Reformation from an NPC at level 8 (once you gain the Dragon Slayer level) so you can repick another feat for Militia. It should only cost the character 1280 gp and 200 xp.
Dain 04-18-05, 01:05 PM	Well, see, play characters who can't use their int for two and a half years, and who natively get 2 skills a level. I am biased in this (these were, after all, builds I was considering for an upcoming game), but in a world where skills come up more than BAB, the rogue is king. He sure is. But stupidly good in a CO-context usually means stupidly good at killing things. And the rogue, while certainly able to kill things, isn't stupidly good at killing things. Thankfully, his skills make up for that, as you also point out. You're quite right about the BAB (it's easy to make mistakes about sometimes). However, any one level in druid or wizard does the job. And I don't actually have a hard time finding DMs that allow Precocious Apprentice to qualify for Theurge. Sure, it's strong - but you usually only get one spell per round, so having access to more of them just makes you versatile. I find that specialists are so much more dangerous (3.0 Red Wizards may have furthered my bias). But thanks for the catch on the BAB, if nothing else. As happymoocow also points out above, it isn't given that your DM will accept you quaifiyng for MT with Precious Apprentice. I personally think that it's way too powerful - and I'm rather certian that the feat was never intended to be used in this way in the first place. You can only cast so and so many spells per round in combat, but you can certainly cast a lot of spells outside combat that will ease your chance of success both in combat and generally speaking.
Mommy was an Orc 04-18-05, 02:10 PM	Rogue 3/Fighter 1/Wizard 1/Daggerspell Mage 4/Spellsword 1 BAB +7, +3d6 Sneak Attack, casts as a 5th level Wizard, very good skill points. Rogue 1/Warlock 6/Daggerspell Mage 3 8th level Warlock specials, +2d6 Sneak. Rogue 2/Warlock 4/Daggerspell Mage 4 7th level Warlock specials, more of a Rogue than above Barbarian 2/Warlock 3/Chameleon 5 +7 BAB, +2 to Con, +4 to hit/damage, ability to get Rage feats - the 2 Warlock invocations are the ones that let him see invisible at will/darkvision and the ability to sometimes deflect ranged attacks. A tank with a lot of options Rogue 4/Fighter 2/Nightsong Enforcer 4 +9 BAB, +4d6 Sneak, good number of feats/skill points, tough TWF fighter.
Lord Arkhaven 04-18-05, 02:18 PM	Precocious Apprentice to qualify for Mystic Theurge is, rules-as-written, perfectly fine. :rolleyes:
Mommy was an Orc 04-18-05, 02:51 PM	Actually, if you go by the RAW, it absolutely cannot qualify for MT. Only if you do a bit of RAI does it work. Paragraph 2 does not grant the ability to cast 2nd level spells, it gives you a 2nd level spell slot that can be used for a variety of things - but you cast spells as you do 'normally'. And Paragraph 2 automatically activates when you can cast 2nd level spells... Not arcane. Spells. By being able to cast 2nd level Divine spells, you lose the ability to cast that special 2nd level Arcane spell. Now obviously, that's not what the writer intended, but that's what he wrote... Precocious Apprentice to qualify for Mystic Theurge is, rules-as-written, perfectly fine.
jay 04-18-05, 03:30 PM	Bard 10. Seriously. Free action buffs rule. Take Snowflake Wardance (Frostburn) at 3rd, Song of the Heart (Eberron) at 6th, and Arcane Strike (CW) at 9th. Take inspirational boost, master's touch and bladeweave (CAdv) as your spells, and after one round of buffing (inspire courage) you can attack at +18/+13/+18 with your bastard sword(!) for 1d10+7/1d10+7/daze (Will negates), more if you're willing to burn slots with arcane strike, more if you also take the time inspire greatness. Best of all, it's unlikely that your party-mates will feel upstaged, since you're also giving +4/+4 to attack/damage to everyone else. Bard 8/paladin 2. Similar to above, but Devoted Performer (CAdv) instead of Snowflake Wardance, and Extra Smiting (CW) instead of either Arcane Strike or Song of the Heart. Under Eberron rules for bards (which I'd allow in any campaign) Song of the Heart can be gotten back by sacrificing suggestion or inspire greatness. Missing out on Snowflake Wardance, you miss out on Cha to attack, but gain Cha to saves and also smite evil, as good as that of a 10th-level paladin (with Extra Smiting): 3/day, +Cha/+10 to attack/damage. Also, you can use a two-handed weapon or a weapon and buckler.
Talen Lee 04-18-05, 10:18 PM	He sure is. But stupidly good in a CO-context usually means stupidly good at killing things. And the rogue, while certainly able to kill things, isn't stupidly good at killing things. Thankfully, his skills make up for that, as you also point out.Sorry; I wasn't taking the killing things angle as an absolute. At the heart of it, the rogue is good enough in combat without being a monster, and can do everything and dance on the head of a pin besides outside of combat (an exaggeration, yes, but so is 'stupidly good'). As happymoocow also points out above, it isn't given that your DM will accept you quaifiyng for MT with Precious Apprentice.Also true, and a good point. Check with your DM if it's okay. I personally think that it's way too powerful - and I'm rather certian that the feat was never intended to be used in this way in the first place. You can only cast so and so many spells per round in combat, but you can certainly cast a lot of spells outside combat that will ease your chance of success both in combat and generally speaking.All quite true. The path can often be eased if the base class you select is a wee bit less obviously potent; going Shugenja 4/Sorceror 1 with Apprentice, for example, might be a little more acceptable.
catharz 04-18-05, 10:35 PM	going Shugenja 4/Sorceror 1 with Apprentice, for example, might be a little more acceptable. Speaking of which: I still love Shugenja 1/Sha'ir [Drg 315] 3/Mystic Theurge as a multicaster build. Not so much of a powerhouse, but you don't need great stats (Cha only, really), and it has awesome flavor. IMO it is just about the only multicaster build playable in a low-level campaign. It isn't exactly C.O., but I like the the Order of the Forbidding Wasteland (which means Elemental Focus: Water), and a water Gen. The Forbidding Wasteland goes with the 'Arabian [K]Nights' flavor, water means that you'll generally be regarded as a good guy. Its a whole kind of aqueous thing that goes together rather well. Of course, you won't have any Shugenja blaster spells, but hopefully you're crative enough that won't be a problem. ;) ***Educational Corner: "Shugendo" was a Japanese disipline of esoteric knowledge/magic (based in the Shinto religion), which (as legend has it) gave it's practitioners power over weather, their vitality, and even other people's minds! Most practitioners were wiped out during Oda Nobunaga's reign as Shogun, in which he launched massive attacks against the warrior-monks ("Yamabushi") who posed an indirect (and sometimes less indirect) threat to his power.*** I hope you've enjoyed my latest installment of ***Educational Corner***!