3.5 Paladin/Sorcerer [Archive] - Wizards Community

3.5 Paladin/Sorcerer [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Votan
02-07-04, 07:29 PM Back in the good old days of 3.0 there was a very nice combination possible of Paladin 1/Sorcerer 19. The Paladin got divine grace (CHA to all saves), lay on hands, divine health and detect evil at first level. Add in martial weapon proficiency which is helpful. At first level the character can be a Paladin which is really helpful to surviving first level. The loss of spells was bitter but with 20th level sorcerers often having a +10/+11 bonus from CHA (level + inherent bonus + base stat + items), +11 on all saves never wears out it's welcome.

The came along 3.5 and divine grace moved to 2nd level of Paladin.

Suddenly this neat class combo seemed to no longer be viable. I am wondering if it can still be saved.

Let's assume a 28 point build for the character whenever attributes would matter. If you use a non-SRD PrC please use it from a 3.5 source as 3.0 to 3.5 gets very confusing (otherwise I'd love to use divine oracle). Human is best but an non-ECL type is cool.

I can see two ways to go:

Paladin 2/Sorcerer 14/Archmage 4 (Gandalf -- not a mimic of the LoTR character but a similar concept with a related look and feel)

18th level spell casting (9th level spells).
BAB: +11 (so three attacks)
S 12 D 12 Cn 12 I 12 W 10 Ch 16 (+5 in level increases)
Average HP: 81 Saves (F/R/W): +8/+5/+13

Paladin 3/Sorcerer 6/Eldrich Knight 9/Dragon Disciple 2 (arcane warrior)

14th level spell casting (7th level spells)
BAB +16 (so four attacks)
S 14 (+2 from DD) D 12 Cn 14 I 10 W 10 C 15 (+ 5 in level increases)
Average HP: 116 Saves (F/R/W): +14/+6/+12

Any other suggestions on how to do this sort of character??? Improvements on my (admittedly crude) attempts??
Dark Caesar
02-07-04, 07:54 PM just take a level of contemplative with the prestige domain "mysticism" and you'll still get divine grace. and you'll get divine health - immune to all diseases. All for one level.
Fiendish Dire Weasel
02-08-04, 03:11 AM Contemplative isn't available to most Sorcerers (at least not until 23rd level or so).

Pal2/Sor18 seems reasonable to me if you just want casting & Divine Grace.

I would consider some of the PrCs from BoExalted Deeds with that combo, the only downside being is that they all loose at least 1 caster level which hurts already having to sacrifice 2 for Paladin.

If I was sacrificing spell levels for 2 levels of melee ability I'd have to consider: Pal2/Sorc4/Spellsword1/Eldritch Knight. You loose 1 more caster level so end up having to wait until level 21 for 9th level spells.

While you're loosing some spell levels, why not loose a few more though! ( :D ) Adding in to the above build some Eldritch Master (Dragon 280), or some of the BoED PrCs could build a very interesting "Holy Sorcerer" type build. May also be worth considering sticking in the Celestial Bloodline feat from Dragon 312(?) as well.
PhaedrusXY
02-08-04, 03:51 AM Originally posted by Fiendish Dire Weasel
Contemplative isn't available to most Sorcerers (at least not until 23rd level or so). You can take a feat to make Know: religion a class skill and get into it as fast as anybody else.

I'd also reccommend two levels of Witch Hunter from Oriental Adventures. The prereqs aren't easy to meet, but you only lose one caster level and gain several good abilities, one of which is Charisma to saves.
Periac
02-08-04, 04:18 AM Go for another PrC: like Divine Oracle, Mage of the Arcane Order or candle Caster. This gives you access to Knowledge Religion or all Knowledge skills, so you can aquire Contemplative or Sacred exorcist a lot faster.
PhaedrusXY
02-08-04, 04:30 AM Originally posted by Periac
Go for another PrC: like Divine Oracle, Mage of the Arcane Order or candle Caster. This gives you access to Knowledge Religion or all Knowledge skills, so you can aquire Contemplative or Sacred exorcist a lot faster. That's a good idea. Candle Caster is relatively easy to get into, and a good Sorcerer PrC in it's own right, also.
pawsplay
02-08-04, 11:27 AM Paladin 3/Sorcerer 6/PrC X is good for strong melee character, especially for advancing as an Eldritch Knight, Bladesinger, Havoc Mage, Spellsword, etc.

Paladin 3/Sorcerer 4, for an elf, perhaps a Bladesinger is somewhat undesirable, because you have to go Sorcerer 2/Paladin 3/Sorcerer +2. Which costs you about 4 hit points and means playing a vulnerable Sorcerer at 1st level.

So for humans, half-elves, Aasimir, and others who don't face multiclassing restrictions with this combo, Paladin 3/Sorcerer 6 is still good for the "mix it up" type.

Primary casters should pursue one of the other options listed in this thread. Paladin 2/Sorcerer 6/PrC means losing two caster levels before any PrC dips are added in, but is still a viable option, I think, and carries no multiclassing pain. This could be a strong choice for an Eldritch Knight, who would lose one more caster level but then advance fully, or for a non-fighter PrC.
Fiendish Dire Weasel
02-08-04, 08:11 PM You can take a feat to make Know: religion a class skill and get into it as fast as anybody else. Yes, there is three feats that would let you do this. None of them are in the PHB so they may not be available in all games. I think it's important to point out when talking about builds.
Raging Halfling
02-09-04, 02:18 AM Aasimar Paladin 4/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 3/Eldritch Knight 9

This uses only a couple of non-core feats, and even those are from such tame WotC products as CW and BoED.

Pal 1: Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Detect Evil
Pal 2: Divine Grace, Lay on Hands
Pal 3: Power Attack, Immunity to Disease, Aura of Courage
Pal 4: Turn Undead (VERY important)
Sor 1:
Sor 2: Divine Might
Sor 3-4
Sps 1: Sanctify Martial Strike, ASF -10%
Sps 2: Improved Critical (Greatsword)
Sps 3: ASF -15%
EK 1: Arcane Strike, Cleave
EK 2-3
EK 4: Improved Toughness
EK 5-6
EK 7: Spell Penetration
EK 8-9

This has a fairly strong focus toward evil opponents, but unless you almost never face powerful opponents, this build should give you some pretty insane power.

At the end it has BAB 18/13/8/3, Fort +14, Ref +6, Will +11 (plus your CHA modifier, which should be truly uber at this point). Average hp at 20th level should be around 144, assuming a Con of 14. This will be boosted by such spells as False Life pretty consistently, and you do have a limited ability to heal yourself. Also, you should get yourself an Amulet of Health, which should bring your hp up to snuff.

You also get spells as a 14th level sorcerer (7th level), and Spell Penetration gives you lvl 16 against SR. The spell list should generally be focused on buffing spells and transportation spells, supplemented by a few miscellaneous offensive spells.

For equipment, getting decent armor with low ASF is a must, mithral armor or armor with the Twilight enhancement are the best way to do this. Getting a weapon with the spell-storing property is a good idea, but isn't actually vital. Other than that, an Amulet of Health and a Cloak of Charisma of the highest quality possible are all you'll really want, anything else is just gravy.

Any thoughts?
cowdragon
02-09-04, 02:31 AM Try this,

Pal2/Sorc17/Spellsword1, you get 9th level spells, ability to wear your fancy mithral/twighlight armor, martial weapons, divine grace, lay on hands(albeit very small amounts), take one of the sorcerer bloodline feats in the Dragon Mg #311 to get a bonus spell per level to make up for losing a couple caster levels. This shoould actually work very well! I think I'll use it myself.

The Cowdragon :mage:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Votan 02-07-04, 07:29 PM	Back in the good old days of 3.0 there was a very nice combination possible of Paladin 1/Sorcerer 19. The Paladin got divine grace (CHA to all saves), lay on hands, divine health and detect evil at first level. Add in martial weapon proficiency which is helpful. At first level the character can be a Paladin which is really helpful to surviving first level. The loss of spells was bitter but with 20th level sorcerers often having a +10/+11 bonus from CHA (level + inherent bonus + base stat + items), +11 on all saves never wears out it's welcome. The came along 3.5 and divine grace moved to 2nd level of Paladin. Suddenly this neat class combo seemed to no longer be viable. I am wondering if it can still be saved. Let's assume a 28 point build for the character whenever attributes would matter. If you use a non-SRD PrC please use it from a 3.5 source as 3.0 to 3.5 gets very confusing (otherwise I'd love to use divine oracle). Human is best but an non-ECL type is cool. I can see two ways to go: Paladin 2/Sorcerer 14/Archmage 4 (Gandalf -- not a mimic of the LoTR character but a similar concept with a related look and feel) 18th level spell casting (9th level spells). BAB: +11 (so three attacks) S 12 D 12 Cn 12 I 12 W 10 Ch 16 (+5 in level increases) Average HP: 81 Saves (F/R/W): +8/+5/+13 Paladin 3/Sorcerer 6/Eldrich Knight 9/Dragon Disciple 2 (arcane warrior) 14th level spell casting (7th level spells) BAB +16 (so four attacks) S 14 (+2 from DD) D 12 Cn 14 I 10 W 10 C 15 (+ 5 in level increases) Average HP: 116 Saves (F/R/W): +14/+6/+12 Any other suggestions on how to do this sort of character??? Improvements on my (admittedly crude) attempts??
Dark Caesar 02-07-04, 07:54 PM	just take a level of contemplative with the prestige domain "mysticism" and you'll still get divine grace. and you'll get divine health - immune to all diseases. All for one level.
Fiendish Dire Weasel 02-08-04, 03:11 AM	Contemplative isn't available to most Sorcerers (at least not until 23rd level or so). Pal2/Sor18 seems reasonable to me if you just want casting & Divine Grace. I would consider some of the PrCs from BoExalted Deeds with that combo, the only downside being is that they all loose at least 1 caster level which hurts already having to sacrifice 2 for Paladin. If I was sacrificing spell levels for 2 levels of melee ability I'd have to consider: Pal2/Sorc4/Spellsword1/Eldritch Knight. You loose 1 more caster level so end up having to wait until level 21 for 9th level spells. While you're loosing some spell levels, why not loose a few more though! ( :D ) Adding in to the above build some Eldritch Master (Dragon 280), or some of the BoED PrCs could build a very interesting "Holy Sorcerer" type build. May also be worth considering sticking in the Celestial Bloodline feat from Dragon 312(?) as well.
PhaedrusXY 02-08-04, 03:51 AM	Originally posted by Fiendish Dire Weasel Contemplative isn't available to most Sorcerers (at least not until 23rd level or so). You can take a feat to make Know: religion a class skill and get into it as fast as anybody else. I'd also reccommend two levels of Witch Hunter from Oriental Adventures. The prereqs aren't easy to meet, but you only lose one caster level and gain several good abilities, one of which is Charisma to saves.
Periac 02-08-04, 04:18 AM	Go for another PrC: like Divine Oracle, Mage of the Arcane Order or candle Caster. This gives you access to Knowledge Religion or all Knowledge skills, so you can aquire Contemplative or Sacred exorcist a lot faster.
PhaedrusXY 02-08-04, 04:30 AM	Originally posted by Periac Go for another PrC: like Divine Oracle, Mage of the Arcane Order or candle Caster. This gives you access to Knowledge Religion or all Knowledge skills, so you can aquire Contemplative or Sacred exorcist a lot faster. That's a good idea. Candle Caster is relatively easy to get into, and a good Sorcerer PrC in it's own right, also.
pawsplay 02-08-04, 11:27 AM	Paladin 3/Sorcerer 6/PrC X is good for strong melee character, especially for advancing as an Eldritch Knight, Bladesinger, Havoc Mage, Spellsword, etc. Paladin 3/Sorcerer 4, for an elf, perhaps a Bladesinger is somewhat undesirable, because you have to go Sorcerer 2/Paladin 3/Sorcerer +2. Which costs you about 4 hit points and means playing a vulnerable Sorcerer at 1st level. So for humans, half-elves, Aasimir, and others who don't face multiclassing restrictions with this combo, Paladin 3/Sorcerer 6 is still good for the "mix it up" type. Primary casters should pursue one of the other options listed in this thread. Paladin 2/Sorcerer 6/PrC means losing two caster levels before any PrC dips are added in, but is still a viable option, I think, and carries no multiclassing pain. This could be a strong choice for an Eldritch Knight, who would lose one more caster level but then advance fully, or for a non-fighter PrC.
Fiendish Dire Weasel 02-08-04, 08:11 PM	You can take a feat to make Know: religion a class skill and get into it as fast as anybody else. Yes, there is three feats that would let you do this. None of them are in the PHB so they may not be available in all games. I think it's important to point out when talking about builds.
Raging Halfling 02-09-04, 02:18 AM	Aasimar Paladin 4/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 3/Eldritch Knight 9 This uses only a couple of non-core feats, and even those are from such tame WotC products as CW and BoED. Pal 1: Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Detect Evil Pal 2: Divine Grace, Lay on Hands Pal 3: Power Attack, Immunity to Disease, Aura of Courage Pal 4: Turn Undead (VERY important) Sor 1: Sor 2: Divine Might Sor 3-4 Sps 1: Sanctify Martial Strike, ASF -10% Sps 2: Improved Critical (Greatsword) Sps 3: ASF -15% EK 1: Arcane Strike, Cleave EK 2-3 EK 4: Improved Toughness EK 5-6 EK 7: Spell Penetration EK 8-9 This has a fairly strong focus toward evil opponents, but unless you almost never face powerful opponents, this build should give you some pretty insane power. At the end it has BAB 18/13/8/3, Fort +14, Ref +6, Will +11 (plus your CHA modifier, which should be truly uber at this point). Average hp at 20th level should be around 144, assuming a Con of 14. This will be boosted by such spells as False Life pretty consistently, and you do have a limited ability to heal yourself. Also, you should get yourself an Amulet of Health, which should bring your hp up to snuff. You also get spells as a 14th level sorcerer (7th level), and Spell Penetration gives you lvl 16 against SR. The spell list should generally be focused on buffing spells and transportation spells, supplemented by a few miscellaneous offensive spells. For equipment, getting decent armor with low ASF is a must, mithral armor or armor with the Twilight enhancement are the best way to do this. Getting a weapon with the spell-storing property is a good idea, but isn't actually vital. Other than that, an Amulet of Health and a Cloak of Charisma of the highest quality possible are all you'll really want, anything else is just gravy. Any thoughts?
cowdragon 02-09-04, 02:31 AM	Try this, Pal2/Sorc17/Spellsword1, you get 9th level spells, ability to wear your fancy mithral/twighlight armor, martial weapons, divine grace, lay on hands(albeit very small amounts), take one of the sorcerer bloodline feats in the Dragon Mg #311 to get a bonus spell per level to make up for losing a couple caster levels. This shoould actually work very well! I think I'll use it myself. The Cowdragon :mage: