3.5 Persistent Cleric Spells [Archive] - Wizards Community

3.5 Persistent Cleric Spells [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Furdaddy
07-30-03, 07:39 PM Let us compile a list of Persistable cleric spells in 3.5 (including those from pre-3.5 sources).

I don't want to renew the debate over whether Touch spells may be Persisted, so please list any such spells separately and note them with a (t) after the name.

Likewise, spells not found in the 3.5 PHB should have their source noted.

Ready? GO!

[Edit]

I suppose it would behoove me to make a start. From the PHB:

First Level:
Bless
Comprehend Languages
Divine Favor
Entropic Shield

Second Level:
Divine Flame (DotF)
Divine Zephyr (DotF)
Find Traps
Speak with Animals

Third Level:
Lesser Aspect of the Diety (DotF; Mysticism)
Lesser Telepathic Bond (DotF)
Prayer
Recitation (DotF; UE)
Speak with Plants

Fourth Level:
Bear's Heart (DotF)
Beast Claws (DotF)
Blessed Aim (DotF)
Divine Power
Freedom of Movement
Repel Vermin
Weapon of the Diety (MoF; DotF)

Fifth Level:
Righteous Might

Which Persistable spells do you anticipate using in 3.5? Aside from Divine Favor, Divine Power and Righteous Might, this isn't a stellar list.
Furdaddy
07-31-03, 03:04 PM So, assuming Touch spells can't be Persisted, is it worthwhile to spend two feats to get Persistent?

Especially, since for the same spell slot adjustment of +4 you could get somewhat similar results from Quicken, which only costs 1 feat.

Granted, a Quickened spell isn't in effect all day, but you'd have it when you needed it once per day. Also, you can use Quicken with ANY spell, so it's far more flexible.

Weighing in favor of Persistent is the fact that for those two feats, you also get Extend. However, to me extend is really only useful for hour per level spells, of which there are far fewer in 3.5 (no more hour per level buffs). Hmmm, a list of hour per level cleric spells would be handy too . . .

What do you think? Is Persistent still a must have in 3.5 as it was in 3.0? Or maybe Persistent only becomes a must have later when you can Persist higher level spells like Righteous Might?
chris7476
07-31-03, 03:09 PM What do you think? Is Persistent still a must have in 3.5 as it was in 3.0?

For clerics, sure, since most of the spells that it can be used for haven't changed. The big nerf was to Extend, not Persistent. The biggie, Divine Power, is still there.
Dendofuman
07-31-03, 03:25 PM How could you forget the best persistable spell ever: Divine Power! An 8th level slot for 1 hp/level, +6 STR, AND a base attack bonus equal to your character level! Now the cleric is just as potent in melee as a fighter, if not more.

Righteous Might is also an awesome persistable spell, especially in 3.5: +8 STR, +4 CON, +4 Natural Armor, and damage reduction!

Bear's Heart (DotF) is also one of my favorites: anyone in the 20ft. radius gains +4 STR and +1d4 hp/level.

Bless, Prayer, and Recitation (DotF) are all decent choices, too.

That's all that's coming to mind right now; I'll have to go back and look over some of my old spell sheets to see if I missed any.
Furdaddy
07-31-03, 03:36 PM I didn't forget Divine Power and Righteous Might, I just haven't gone over the fourth level spells yet.

It's true that these are fantastic spells to Persist, but you can't do so until level 15. In 3.0 you wanted to get Persistent at 9th level to Persist your buffs and Divine Favor etc. In 3.5, maybe it only becomes a must have at level 15 when Persistent 4th level spells come on line?

So, for a 3.5 melee cleric, how would your feat selection look? Still taking Persistent at 9th or do you pick up something more immediately useful (maybe craft or melee feats) and wait until level 15 for Persistent?
catharz
07-31-03, 04:23 PM Divine favor is still there..
Tae Kwon Dan
07-31-03, 06:33 PM Uhm, you couldn't persist a buff at 9th level as that required a 6th level slot. Persist is best for short duration spells as you'd always be ahead on the hour/level spells with multiple Extends.

Even in 3.5 it's not really going to be worth it to Perists the hour/level spells since you're only losing a few hours even at 9th just to extend it once and saving several spell slots.

The new Divine Power and Righteous Might are totally worth it, but as has been pointed out you're not pulling that off until 15th and 17th level respectively. Although War and Strength are just that much more stout as you can throw a Persistent version of each into your domain slot of the appropriate level.
Lord Likk
07-31-03, 06:53 PM that is an incredibly badass sig, tae kwon dan, but i'm afraid you're mistaken about the metamagic'ed domain spells. when you memorize a domain spell, it must be of that lvl; you can't put a metamagic feat on it and use a higher lvl slot.
lameraverga
07-31-03, 07:10 PM spell resistance is also a goody for persistant, you can get SR 12+caster level all day, so you got really tough against spells at level 18, you sot SR 30, not bad at all...
Tae Kwon Dan
07-31-03, 08:54 PM Originally posted by Lord Likk
that is an incredibly badass sig, tae kwon dan, but i'm afraid you're mistaken about the metamagic'ed domain spells. when you memorize a domain spell, it must be of that lvl; you can't put a metamagic feat on it and use a higher lvl slot.

The only thing I can find in the SRD on this is:(under the Divine Spell Preperation section)

"A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower level."

Now, while the +1 in X+1 spells per day refers to the domain slot it is still a spell slot and I would argue that you can fill a higher level domain slot with a lower level spell of the same domain.

In fact I checked the FAQ and here's the answer that is in there for the same question:

"No, that’s not what was intended, though the wording of the
rules certainly implies that is the case. Each domain slot can
hold a spell only from one of the cleric’s domains, but a cleric
can use metamagic on domain spells (which makes them fill
higher-level slots), or the cleric can simply prepare a domain
spell in a higher-level domain slot.
Specialist wizards can likewise fill their bonus spell slots
with lower-level spells or with metamagiced spells, provided
the spells are from the wizard’s specialty school."
Furdaddy
10-04-03, 12:10 PM Spell Resistance can only be Persisted if you interpret "Touch" as a fixed range, which debate I don't want to get into here. For purposes of this thread, I am taking the conservative approach and including only spells with a fixed range (not including touch) or personal range.
Furdaddy
10-06-03, 08:42 PM Can you really Persist Bless? Based on the text of the feat, I don't see why not. But it seems weird since it is a burst spell.

When you Persist it does the radius follow you around all day Blessing people, or does it just burst once and whoever is in the radius at that time gets the benefit all day?
Craenor
10-06-03, 10:04 PM If you have the travel domain then Persistent Expeditious Retreat is pretty nice.

My MT walks around all day with Persistent Shield and Persistent Expeditious Retreat...I could throw up Divine Favor too, but am reluctant to lose the 5th level spell slot...I'll probably do it next level when I get another 5th level spell slot.

Craenor

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Furdaddy 07-30-03, 07:39 PM	Let us compile a list of Persistable cleric spells in 3.5 (including those from pre-3.5 sources). I don't want to renew the debate over whether Touch spells may be Persisted, so please list any such spells separately and note them with a (t) after the name. Likewise, spells not found in the 3.5 PHB should have their source noted. Ready? GO! [Edit] I suppose it would behoove me to make a start. From the PHB: First Level: Bless Comprehend Languages Divine Favor Entropic Shield Second Level: Divine Flame (DotF) Divine Zephyr (DotF) Find Traps Speak with Animals Third Level: Lesser Aspect of the Diety (DotF; Mysticism) Lesser Telepathic Bond (DotF) Prayer Recitation (DotF; UE) Speak with Plants Fourth Level: Bear's Heart (DotF) Beast Claws (DotF) Blessed Aim (DotF) Divine Power Freedom of Movement Repel Vermin Weapon of the Diety (MoF; DotF) Fifth Level: Righteous Might Which Persistable spells do you anticipate using in 3.5? Aside from Divine Favor, Divine Power and Righteous Might, this isn't a stellar list.
Furdaddy 07-31-03, 03:04 PM	So, assuming Touch spells can't be Persisted, is it worthwhile to spend two feats to get Persistent? Especially, since for the same spell slot adjustment of +4 you could get somewhat similar results from Quicken, which only costs 1 feat. Granted, a Quickened spell isn't in effect all day, but you'd have it when you needed it once per day. Also, you can use Quicken with ANY spell, so it's far more flexible. Weighing in favor of Persistent is the fact that for those two feats, you also get Extend. However, to me extend is really only useful for hour per level spells, of which there are far fewer in 3.5 (no more hour per level buffs). Hmmm, a list of hour per level cleric spells would be handy too . . . What do you think? Is Persistent still a must have in 3.5 as it was in 3.0? Or maybe Persistent only becomes a must have later when you can Persist higher level spells like Righteous Might?
chris7476 07-31-03, 03:09 PM	What do you think? Is Persistent still a must have in 3.5 as it was in 3.0? For clerics, sure, since most of the spells that it can be used for haven't changed. The big nerf was to Extend, not Persistent. The biggie, Divine Power, is still there.
Dendofuman 07-31-03, 03:25 PM	How could you forget the best persistable spell ever: Divine Power! An 8th level slot for 1 hp/level, +6 STR, AND a base attack bonus equal to your character level! Now the cleric is just as potent in melee as a fighter, if not more. Righteous Might is also an awesome persistable spell, especially in 3.5: +8 STR, +4 CON, +4 Natural Armor, and damage reduction! Bear's Heart (DotF) is also one of my favorites: anyone in the 20ft. radius gains +4 STR and +1d4 hp/level. Bless, Prayer, and Recitation (DotF) are all decent choices, too. That's all that's coming to mind right now; I'll have to go back and look over some of my old spell sheets to see if I missed any.
Furdaddy 07-31-03, 03:36 PM	I didn't forget Divine Power and Righteous Might, I just haven't gone over the fourth level spells yet. It's true that these are fantastic spells to Persist, but you can't do so until level 15. In 3.0 you wanted to get Persistent at 9th level to Persist your buffs and Divine Favor etc. In 3.5, maybe it only becomes a must have at level 15 when Persistent 4th level spells come on line? So, for a 3.5 melee cleric, how would your feat selection look? Still taking Persistent at 9th or do you pick up something more immediately useful (maybe craft or melee feats) and wait until level 15 for Persistent?
catharz 07-31-03, 04:23 PM	Divine favor is still there..
Tae Kwon Dan 07-31-03, 06:33 PM	Uhm, you couldn't persist a buff at 9th level as that required a 6th level slot. Persist is best for short duration spells as you'd always be ahead on the hour/level spells with multiple Extends. Even in 3.5 it's not really going to be worth it to Perists the hour/level spells since you're only losing a few hours even at 9th just to extend it once and saving several spell slots. The new Divine Power and Righteous Might are totally worth it, but as has been pointed out you're not pulling that off until 15th and 17th level respectively. Although War and Strength are just that much more stout as you can throw a Persistent version of each into your domain slot of the appropriate level.
Lord Likk 07-31-03, 06:53 PM	that is an incredibly badass sig, tae kwon dan, but i'm afraid you're mistaken about the metamagic'ed domain spells. when you memorize a domain spell, it must be of that lvl; you can't put a metamagic feat on it and use a higher lvl slot.
lameraverga 07-31-03, 07:10 PM	spell resistance is also a goody for persistant, you can get SR 12+caster level all day, so you got really tough against spells at level 18, you sot SR 30, not bad at all...
Tae Kwon Dan 07-31-03, 08:54 PM	Originally posted by Lord Likk that is an incredibly badass sig, tae kwon dan, but i'm afraid you're mistaken about the metamagic'ed domain spells. when you memorize a domain spell, it must be of that lvl; you can't put a metamagic feat on it and use a higher lvl slot. The only thing I can find in the SRD on this is:(under the Divine Spell Preperation section) "A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower level." Now, while the +1 in X+1 spells per day refers to the domain slot it is still a spell slot and I would argue that you can fill a higher level domain slot with a lower level spell of the same domain. In fact I checked the FAQ and here's the answer that is in there for the same question: "No, that’s not what was intended, though the wording of the rules certainly implies that is the case. Each domain slot can hold a spell only from one of the cleric’s domains, but a cleric can use metamagic on domain spells (which makes them fill higher-level slots), or the cleric can simply prepare a domain spell in a higher-level domain slot. Specialist wizards can likewise fill their bonus spell slots with lower-level spells or with metamagiced spells, provided the spells are from the wizard’s specialty school."
Furdaddy 10-04-03, 12:10 PM	Spell Resistance can only be Persisted if you interpret "Touch" as a fixed range, which debate I don't want to get into here. For purposes of this thread, I am taking the conservative approach and including only spells with a fixed range (not including touch) or personal range.
Furdaddy 10-06-03, 08:42 PM	Can you really Persist Bless? Based on the text of the feat, I don't see why not. But it seems weird since it is a burst spell. When you Persist it does the radius follow you around all day Blessing people, or does it just burst once and whoever is in the radius at that time gets the benefit all day?
Craenor 10-06-03, 10:04 PM	If you have the travel domain then Persistent Expeditious Retreat is pretty nice. My MT walks around all day with Persistent Shield and Persistent Expeditious Retreat...I could throw up Divine Favor too, but am reluctant to lose the 5th level spell slot...I'll probably do it next level when I get another 5th level spell slot. Craenor