Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Stalkachu 01-01-07, 01:35 AM	Options: Ranger 15/Fighter 2/Rogue 3 Ranger 10/Rogue 10 Ranger 12/Rogue 4/Fighter 4 Rogue 16/Fighter 2/Ranger 2 Or something. Anyway, my basic question is with the limited options available, how does a Ranger go about doing decent damage with archery or twf, and more specifically for each - TWF damage is hella hard to raise, with archery a little easier to begin with but kinda tailing off later on. Was pondering just going Rogue 20 and messing around with skills etc. to get the Ranger feel since you don't miss out on all that much. In short...how do Rangers do more damage without Sneak Attack, both with TWF Style and Archery Style? And if they do need Sneak Attack, how would you do it? Ideal race for the build is Elf, but if it's impossible can be flexible. Any assistance is much appreciated. Take care, Stalks
icedrake 01-01-07, 02:57 AM	TWF works out great for classes like the rogue and ranger who get extra damage on each attack and twf let's them maxiuize their totally number of attacks. Playing a ranger/rogue works out well since you gain access to sneak attack damage for all crit-able targets while Favored Enemy makes up for one or two targets (likely constructs and undead) that you cannot crit. Get a weapon or two with the bane propority for the same targets you have as Favored Enemies and you're all set to go. Thematically, the character's very well balanced, you have survival skills and people skills or theiving skills, so you should always have something to do outside of combat. If you could get your DM to allow elves to have Ranger as a favored class, I would focus more on rogue than ranger. I'd take ranger 6 for a free imp twf, but after that, I'd jump ship. The ranger spells aren't that great and it doesn't get that many super special abilities at higher level and the rogue has so much going for it, from skills to sneak attack. However, that's a personal choice of mine. I prefer rogues.
Stalkachu 01-01-07, 11:59 AM	Cheers for the reply. That was pretty much how I figured it, really. You have to have the Rogue levels up to at least +5d6 if you want to be able to do reliable damage, but you do miss out on all the spells and stuff, although you can make up for some of that with (as I said) skill selection (Search, Use Magic Device (for wands), that sorta stuff + some cross-classing for Survival/Handle Animal). Quick extra question - What are the relevant advantages/disadvantages for each style, and which turns out better? (TWF seems more useful, since you get two useful feats whereas Manyshot's a little, well, meh) Finally, if you were going to go the Ranger/Rogue route, what would your progression be? Rogue 1/Ranger 2/Rogue 2/Ranger 4, etc? Sorta what I was thinking. Opinions welcome, though. ^_^ Anyone else who wants to join in the discussion with ideas, more than welcome. ^_^ P.S. Oh yeah, one more. Any cunning ways to use Ranger spells/skills to get SA damage in an interesting way? From PHB nothing springs to mind, but I could be wrong. Animal companion for flanking looks like it would work, though.
icedrake 01-01-07, 03:36 PM	The major spell that the rangers get access is polymorph as a 4th level spell. Personally, I never really found the ranger spells very good, the fact you need to have a 14 wis to cast any of them sucks, a lot. Without any books like the Spell Compendium, there's not a lot out there for you to use that's good. I would start rogue at level one for skills, then ranger 2 for twf, rogue 1 or 2 to boost the skills that the ranger levels didn't cover and then you can alternate at your discression. Third level you'll want weapon finesse if you're playing an elf so you can use your dex to hit instead of str. I think you'd want at least ranger 6 for two favored enemies, I'd max undead b/c I've encountered that a lot more than say oozes, though I havne't played in a 15+ game in a while so you might want to get undead/constructs and 6th level gets you imp twf for free. Do not underestimate manyshot. You can fire your bab worth of arrows as a standard action, albeit at a penality, but then move afterwards or before. That's a significant battlefield advantage since your not stuck in one place. If you want to go archery, I'd get a high str so you can buy a composite longbow to add str damage to your bow and pick up levels of fighter for some of the other feats. However, the archer ranger really needs a few more feats and magic properities that you can't find in the core books alone to create the most effective one. From a pure damage standpoint, sneak attack's your best option, though you will have some decient options with a bow.
Stalkachu 01-01-07, 05:22 PM	Thanks for the reply. Taking that into account, might as well go with WIS 12 and settle for a wand or two for utility and flavor. Glad to see you agree with me on the starting progression, although it continues to frustrate me that multi-classing wise you have to choose between Elf and it's accompanying bonuses and Human for the better classes. Thought about Half-elf, but although it's good for flavor it is, ultimately, a bit poor. ^_^ Just to clarify, under 3.5 does the Ranger bonus damage work on creatures immune to crits now? I remember it being a flaw in 3.0 but just wanted to check because I guess I missed that. If so, that works well and thanks for the tip. And in further rules questions, can you use the Ranger feats (feat-like abilities?) as pre-reqs for other feats? I.e. Greater TWF, TWD, etc.? Thanks for the Manyshot input. Wasn't a big fan of it at first glance but will re-analyze now. Mobility is a plus, to be fair. Finally, if you were going to try and slot Fighter levels in, how would you do that? Ranger 6, Fighter ?, Rogue ? It's kinda hard when you have to worry about penalties 'cuz you can't just go Ftr 4. Or are you just advocating Rgr 10/Ftr 10 or some variation on that? Just curious. Thanks again for all the help and being patient with some questions which I would image sound a little newbie-ish. Take care, Stalks P.S. Oh yeah, just to note that you can cast spells with WIS of the spell level, not just 14 (but you knew that), and to vaguely note that the Wilderogue variant in the DMG would be a nice option too, if only it were allowed. Sniff.
Blade2718 01-01-07, 06:25 PM	Ranger 11/Fighter 4/Rogue 5 gives you: 3d6 Sneak Attack 3 Favored Enemies (+6, +4, and +2) Weapon Specialization (use two light weapons, like handaxes or shortswords) Good skills +18 BAB Limited selection of Ranger spells for a pretty decent mix of melee damage from multiple sources. Core-only environments are really the only situations where Weapon Spec. is a non-sucky choice.
PhaedrusXY 01-01-07, 06:48 PM	Rangers no longer get Polymorph on their spell list in 3.5. That was one of the things that angered me the most about the conversion initially, as a long-time ranger player. I guess I've gotten used to it, now. Even a 1st level ranger can use a wand with any ranger spell in it. So there is no need for UMD for that (it is still a fantastic skill, however). I think Ranger2/Fighter2(or Barbarian)/Rogue16 is the best. Go with the TWF tree of feats.
X-Codes 01-01-07, 07:02 PM	A lot of people here need to take another look at Ranger... Ranger does not get Polymorph. Ranger favored enemies start at +2, and each time they gain a new enemy they can increase any one favored enemy bonus by +2, not all previous ones. Weapon Specialization still sucks core. Fighters should still take it because there aren't enough feats for them to get. 3.5 Favored Enemy works on crit-immune enemies now. Rangers still get a lot of useful spells, including entangle, jump, longstrider, barkskin, protection from energy, darkvision, greater magic fang, neutralize poison, freedom of movement, and tree stride. Granted that doesn't include fireball or flamestrike, but they're still good spells.
Coffee_Dragon 01-01-07, 07:04 PM	The major spell that the rangers get access is polymorph as a 4th level spell. They don't get that. Freedom of Movement isn't bad, but a core ranger probably shouldn't aim for mid-tier spellcasting for its own sake (though naturally, a level 20 ranger will not cry for having it). Any specialists in the party will be doing that so much better, and the 1st- and 2nd-level spells will do all right for minor buffing and utility. Just to clarify, under 3.5 does the Ranger bonus damage work on creatures immune to crits now? I remember it being a flaw in 3.0 but just wanted to check because I guess I missed that. If so, that works well and thanks for the tip. And in further rules questions, can you use the Ranger feats (feat-like abilities?) as pre-reqs for other feats? I.e. Greater TWF, TWD, etc.? Yes and yes. Core-only environments are really the only situations where Weapon Spec. is a non-sucky choice. I thought it was rather the other way around, because of Weapon Mastery. Edit: That's what I get for browsing through spell lists while posting...
Stalkachu 01-01-07, 07:25 PM	Yeah, I noticed Polymorph had vanished. Disappointing, really, but what can ya do? Thanks you guys for your inputs, but it does basically come down to going with an Any Favored Class race and going with either the standard Rogue build with outdoor Flavor, or the Ranger/Rogue/Filler route, as kinda illustrated in those posts. Haven't really decided what to go with, but it'll probably be one of those (if straight Elf, may go Ranger/Rogue 1 for 1, but that's very much sub-optimal). Cheers everyone for your assistance and I guess I'll see what works out for me. If anyone has anything else to add to the 'debate' please feel free to chime in, I'm still open to new ideas. Thanks again, and take care, Stalks P.S. Thanks for the question answers and the reminder re: wands. Don't use them very often so was a little vague on the rules. Thankyou!
PhaedrusXY 01-01-07, 07:28 PM	There is an elf race in the Monster Manual that has Ranger as a favored class (Wood Elf). So you don't have to go 1 for 1. I think elves make crappy rangers, however. I hate that Con penalty. I know an Elven Ranger is an icon of fantasy, but in the 3.X D&D environment, I think they are actually subpar. Don't overlook the Barbarian levels, either. Fast Movement, Uncanny Dodge, and decent hit points and skill points is nice. And even if you only have 1 rage per day, it can be invaluable as a hit point buffer if you start getting beaten up badly.
Stalkachu 01-01-07, 08:25 PM	Yeah, I'm not overlooking the Barbarian levels. They're a nice bonus, particularly for the TWF Ranger build. For the archery, the Rage isn't exactly very useful, but the movement is. So it has a place in both, although it would obviously suit a melee ranger more. General question that I should probably just ask: in people's opinion, are there any classes ('cept PrCs where they're required) that Elf DOES suit? Because 90% of the time, other races suit specialist roles better, and humans give the versatility for other things. But anyway! Just wondering. And cheers for the MM heads-up. Knew of it, and it's still not a PHB option, but it gives it a little more credibility. So cheers for that, too! Take care, Stalks