Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Low-Tek 12-31-03, 12:35 AM	3.5 Forgotten Realms, Splat Books - 2nd Level Our DM wants run a DnD3.5 game and see how all the new rules handle vs. the older 3.0. He wants to run a 'themed' game with us working somehow for a Chruch for <insert 'goodly' god here>. So far we have two Paladins and a Treature Hunter(Rogue). Not wanting to play a Cleric I've picked a Ranger - Archer for skills and the ability to let the two knuckleheaded Pali's charge into Melee while I stay back and 'plink' the forces of evil. I'll also be acting as the foreward scout so I'll be looking for gaining Darkvision and/or very good search/spot/listen skills. Is it worth giving up one level to get Tielfling or Water Genasi for the Darkvision and +2 Dex? Or having more Ranger levels the best route? Human Ranger 2 1 Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot 2 Rapid Shot for Free.. Tielfling Ranger 1 1 Point Blank Shot Or to hell w/ the Ranger and go Fighter for whacky feats? I do like all the skills point though.
JosephKell 12-31-03, 01:48 AM	Originally posted by Low-Tek 3.5 Forgotten Realms, Splat Books - 2nd Level Starting a new game on Wensday our DM is letting us start at level 2 and using all the current 3.5 books and 3.0 splatbooks that haven't been already overridden already by new rules(Like the oOtbi) Our current party has ~ Two Pali's, a Rogue(Treasure Hunter), and a Ranger (Me). I'm going to be the forward scout of the group because unlike our two Pali's I have skill points to toss around :) Is it worth giving up one level to get Tielfling or Water Genasi for the Darkvision and +2 Dex? Or having more Ranger levels the best route? Human Ranger 2 1 Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot 2 Rapid Shot for Free.. or too hell with the skills points and go Fighter for the extras feats? What is the best way to go? Wait. Let me get this straight. You want a scout, but you totally over look the fact that Rangers get the Track feat AND Survival as a class skill? Plus they actually get some Knowledge Class skills and the totally necessary Search, Listen, and Spot?!?! And you want to give that all up for an extra feat?!?! You have to use a feat on Track anyway?! And you then you have crappy skills. In fact! You should realize that a lot of people on this board are wrong. Dead wrong. The *best* Scout Ranger (and a ranger for something else is pretty much a mistake waiting to happen) should be an Elf Ranger that takes the Alertness Feat. That feat is kick ***. With Elf thrown in that is +4 to Spot and +4 to Listen, and +2 to Search checks, and +2 to Dex.
balefire42 12-31-03, 02:17 AM	If your going to be an elf ranger that is going to be an archer, I would suggest that you don't take alertness. Why? Because, if you take alertness, you won't be able to take precise shot until level 6. Precise shot is fairly necessary if you have any intention of supporting the melee characters from afar.
Fiendish Dire Weasel 12-31-03, 02:43 AM	I have to agree Alertness makes things hard on you. If you're going straight Ranger who focuses on archery you want (need?) Point Blank & Precise Shot as soon as you can get them (Level 1 for Humans, Level 3 for most others) and Complete Warrior's Improved Rapid Shot is, in my opinion, a hard deal to pass up on at level 6. Pushing all of this back 3 levels for Alertness at 1st seems kinda rough, though picking up Alertness at 12th+ level may not be too bad, though I'm not sure if it has the same value then as it does early on. If you want to be a "Scout" Ranger is a great class for it. I'll be the first to admit that darkvision is super handy for any scout type character (my Ranger is Human). You can always take a level of Horizion Walker after you get 8 Ranks of Knowledge: Geography (A skill you'll probably want some of anyways since you're the only one who its a class skill for) and grab 60' of darkvision. The downside is it delays Ranger progression by a level. In FR you can always be a half-drow for 60' of darkvision and no ECL. I'm not sure if Tiefling or Water Gensai is worth the ECL. Any of the races though that give you 60' darkvision can be bumped to 120' darkvision with that 1 level of Horizion Walker as well and if you already have 60' darkvision that level of Horizion Walker becomes less critical. I don't know what I'm trying to say anymore so going to end this post here... :D
Low-Tek 12-31-03, 03:11 AM	Originally posted by Fiendish Dire Weasel If you're going straight Ranger who focuses on archery you want (need?) Point Blank & Precise Shot as soon as you can get them (Level 1 for Humans, Level 3 for most others) and Complete Warrior's Improved Rapid Shot is, in my opinion, a hard deal to pass up on at level 6. Pushing all of this back 3 levels for Alertness at 1st seems kinda rough, though picking up Alertness at 12th+ level may not be too bad, though I'm not sure if it has the same value then as it does early on. If you want to be a "Scout" Ranger is a great class for it. I'll be the first to admit that darkvision is super handy for any scout type character (my Ranger is Human). You make some good points. That's why I'm tempted to go Human for the feat and being useful and not waiting around till level 3 when I can get Precise Shot. Then again the advantages of having Darkvision 60' as either a Half-Drow or a Half-Orc is vary nice as well. Ahhh choices... I really dont want to dip into Horizon Walker for JUST Darkvision as a Human - that would retard my progression as a Ranger, although the BAB would stay the same and getting Shifter as 7th lvl is pretty damn nice to tell you the truth.
JoostBuijs 12-31-03, 03:55 AM	Try to get your hands on them goggles of night :D Anyhow, 2 levels of fighter is -definatly- worth it, might be a kick on the skills -yes, but the 2 feats at start is deadly nice. (Ranger 18-20 is a waste anyhow) Also you can take Half-Drow for the 60' Darkvision and combine it with fighter to still get your needed feats early on. Teehee
Lord Likk 12-31-03, 05:01 AM	nothing more, nothing less.
Lord Likk 12-31-03, 05:10 AM	The *best* Scout Ranger (and a ranger for something else is pretty much a mistake waiting to happen) should be an Elf Ranger that takes the Alertness Feat. That feat is kick ***. With Elf thrown in that is +4 to Spot and +4 to Listen, and +2 to Search checks, and +2 to Dex. okay, if he wants a scout, he should make one, ut alertness just ain't worth it. track i can see, but only as a bonus feat through rgr, since you're right when you say he should be taking that IF he really wants more scoutery than combattery, if you will. alertness, though, is just not worth 1/7 of a character's pre-epic fully choosable feats, or even 1/8, if they're a human or a strongheart halfling. i wouldn't be so quick to simply call us 'dead wrong' joseph. we're merely favoring efficiency over flavor here, and these are the character optimization boards after all. no offense, joostbuijs, but he's really better off as a 1/2 orc than a 1/2 drow. as far as i'm concerned, 1/2 elves are never worth it without a serious application of house ruling. may i suggest the spells blindsight and/or tremorsense, if rangers get either, or a purchase of that beautiful 9,ooo gp blindfold of blindsight, or something like that, from the arms and equipment guide. it grants blindsight 30', at the cost of normal vision while it's being worn.
Boondoggle 12-31-03, 05:16 AM	If you want to be a sneaky scout, play a goblin.
JoostBuijs 12-31-03, 05:29 AM	I have a personal taste for Drow over Orcs :) Was no real CO there.
JosephKell 12-31-03, 05:40 AM	No... Elves with Alertness just make so much sense. And if the enemy gets close enough to your buddies to harass them, it is time to put the bow away and whip out the greatsword. But Elves without Alertness are better as Rangers than Humans with Alertness. And Alertness isn't about flavor, it is very useful. Those Miscellanious bonuses to skills really add up. I mean Elf and Alertness is +4, +4!!! And Rangers need Wisdom more for their most important skills (Listen, Spot, and Survival). Alertness is almost as important as Improved Initiative. Why? Because with Alertness you can set ambushes as you are more likely to hear the enemy coming. Perhaps an Elf with Stealthy would be better... then it could be more adept at Sniping (It is in the 3.5 rules). I just know that I had a level 3 Ranger under 3.5 that I didn't get to make (premade characters) and she kicked <explictive deleted>. You know... as it turned out, she had Point Blank Shot at level 1 and Improved Initiative at level 3 I think... But I still think it is a good idea to put your bow down when your buddies start getting swamped. The reason a scout doesn't need Precise shot is that you are normally a head of the party, not behind. If you are ahead of them, you don't want to be firing into melee because you are going to trigger Attacks of Opportunity as you realize you were the one in melee. But if you plan on using the bow the entire time, I can't stress enough how important Far Shot is. Especially for sniping (the farther away you are, the harder it is to locate you). I must say: Read the Hide and Spot skills very carefully. If you don't notice an obvious abuse for Rangers, you aren't considering it very much. As a hint, I say: take ranks in Climb, Jump, and Balance (even if only a few). A bigger hint: It is really hard to climb a tree when someone is dropping rocks on you, imagine how hard it is when someone is firing a bunch of arrows. I bet a party of all Archer Rangers would be fun... at least until a magic Composite Longbow showed up... then everyone would betray each other (stupid inherent greedy). Lia Neilo was one bad Elf Amazon... (Neutral Evil too)
Lord Likk 12-31-03, 06:03 AM	but, for my part, i think feats are generally better used to optimize combat effectiveness, and by that i really mean the speed with which any character can dispatch their foe once combat has begun. that way, in case their detection skills fail, they'll still be badass enough to be able to take advantage of any window of opportunity offered, to maximum effectiveness. after all, an incapacitated opponent is almost always one that will not damage the party for the rest of the encounter. in short, you might say that might philosophy in a turn-based system is this: THE BEST DEFENSE IS A GOOD OFFENSE. i feel as though low-tek here would be better off pumping his wisdom is he wants to be more alert, since both skills are based off of one ability score. if he has to take a hit to dex for that, then so be it. he can make up for that loss in efficiency by devoting any and all feats that he can to combat purposes.
Funny Slaughter 12-31-03, 06:54 AM	maxing a character on a certain skill is not bad, but i think one has to take the style of game into account, too. there are no fixed rules about how high a listen- or spotcheck has to be and most DMs i know tend to modify the DCs according to the skills of the PCs. in my opinion an elven ranger has pretty high skills, better to invest a feat into combat. back to the build: Low-Tek, do you want to stay core? take PrCs? gs Funny
Snow Savant 12-31-03, 11:35 AM	Let's look at this from a party synergy & dynamics standpoint. Your 3 party-mates are 2 Paladins and a Rogue. You wish to be a Ranger (fair enough) who also acts as the point man or forward scout of the party. This leads me to wonder just what the heck the Rogue in your party is doing? Quite often, you see the Rogue playing the role of forward scout. Can you give us a profile breakdown of the party Rogue's modus operandi? That would give us a better perspective on how to best structure your Ranger's feats. This way we can ensure that all your party's stealth, scout, and non-front-line combat needs are met without overlap. XO, Snow :)
Low-Tek 12-31-03, 12:40 PM	The Rogue is going to be playing more of a flanking I'm going to dish out max sneak attack damage to you and have min/maxed use magic device. As for PrCs - I have no problems with them. Half-Drow - has the 60' Foot Darkvision but Half-Elves are fairly crap in the Min/Max barrel of things. Half-Orc - The -2 Charisma, and -2 Intelligence are a heafty negative. I'm a Archer not a fighter so the +2 Strength is less of an issue. But he has Darkvision! Dwarf - Dosn't really fit the concept of Ranger Some +1 ECL - It worth it for Darkvision and added bonuses to attributes? Human - Extra feat but no Darkvision :( And Googles of Night / Horizon Walker is a long way away in terms of gaining extra sight. -- So it looks like Half-Drow is it, with the Darkvision winning me over unless one of you chaps has a better idea. I can pick up Precise Shot at level 3 to be more effective. The only problem is that well I'm a Half-Drow working for a religious order. I don't know if the DM will let this swing :D
Hanniball 12-31-03, 12:41 PM	unless the rogue is going into AT or the Pallys are taking levels in cleric after 2nd your group is severly lacking a caster. thus i recommend the infamous Cleric-Archer. however, if you wish to deny your group synergy (j/k) and wish to take levels of ranger they, too can become formidable archers. is Mof is allowed (it's not 3.5 but it's FR) a wand of hunter's mercy is a must. now, if the rogue is not doing his "job" (which is the scout, IMO) then the easiest way for a ranger to excel in said area is through maxed ranks in the pertinent skills. i.e survival, listen, spot, search, hide, and move silently. also, mulit-classing into a class that has a good 3 level dip is a really good idea. seeing as how ranger 18-20 grants nothing useful save for more spells; added firepower from OotBI 2/ftr 1 or PA 3 is most useful. either way...just my 0.02 cp
Snow Savant 12-31-03, 01:10 PM	Low-Tek, I'm going to repost a post of mine on a different thread that may be of help to you in structuring your character. Now, this build would need some additional tweaking to fit into your specific campaign, so I added an alternate build at the bottom of this post. BTW, both Dark Hunter and Occult Slayer are in the CW book. Rgr6 / Rog3 / Ftr2 / DarkHunter4 / OccultSlayer5 This character is a Half-Drow Archer who hunts in the Underdark for Drow Magi! Her Ranger Favoured Enemies are Elves (Drow) and Evil Outsiders, which works well with her Occult Slayer objectives. Her final Darkvision comes out to 120', the same as her Drow enemies. When not shooting her bow, she wields a Greatsword which she uses to great effect with her +3d6 SA. She is as adept as a Mountain Dwarf in regards to her Stonecunning. And while in the Underdark, her ability to Hide amongst the rock and caverns is well-nigh unparalleled. Her Occult Slayer activities have taught her how to "weapon bond" and perform "vicious strikes" with her arrows. Allowing her to ehance her damage against spellcasters who think they are relatively safe esconced in the back row of their minions. With her good all-around saves (FORT11/REFL13/WILL8 and +3 to All Saves), Non-Detection Cloak, & Blank Thoughts ... she is a terror to all Drow magi and their demonic minions. Her feats are centered around Archery. She has 2 bonus Ranger and 2 bonus Fighter feats. She could take up to 2 extra "Extra Favoured Enemy" feats as well - choosing from Undead, Vermin, and/or Aberrations to reflect her dedication to eliminate the Drow and their Underdark minions & allies. Final BAB is +19 and 13-of-20 levels has skill sets that focus in on key stealth & scouting skills. So ...... to retain your emphasis on Half-Drow, Ranger levels, and Archery emphasis, you could also go this route: Rgr11 / Rog3 / Ftr2 / DarkHunter4 I personally feel that once you hit Ranger-11, you're done with the best that Ranger has to offer. 3 Fav. Enemies, decent low-level spells, 3 bonus Archery feats ... and then the law of diminishing returns kicks in from here on. The 3 Rogue levels are not to tread on the toes of your party's other Rogue, but moreso to give you synergy with your Ranger skills and to give you trap-finding ability (important for a "forward scout"). Ftr2 is an economical grab at 2 good feats and some sturdy HD. DarkHunter is one of the more under-rated, but solid PrC's in CW. And has strong synergy with a Ranger/Rogue. Final BAB of +19, +3d6 SA, & 120' Darkvision (for your Half-Drow). XO, Snow :)
Fiendish Dire Weasel 12-31-03, 05:26 PM	I see lots of Ranger builds with bows & greatswords, I'm curious about what you do with the bow when it's time to melee, just drop it or actually spend the move action to put it away? I guess some gaming groups don't worry about such things but for me when I have to melee is about the same time I don't have a spare move action to put away my bow and I'm terrified if I drop my bow to melee I'll end up losing it one way or another :D
JosephKell 12-31-03, 07:58 PM	Originally posted by Fiendish Dire Weasel I see lots of Ranger builds with bows & greatswords, I'm curious about what you do with the bow when it's time to melee, just drop it or actually spend the move action to put it away? I guess some gaming groups don't worry about such things but for me when I have to melee is about the same time I don't have a spare move action to put away my bow and I'm terrified if I drop my bow to melee I'll end up losing it one way or another :D This is why Quick Draw is also a good feat.
Fiendish Dire Weasel 01-01-04, 12:43 AM	Not sure what difference Quick Draw would make. The problem is doing somthing with the bow when you whip out the greatsword, not actually pulling out the greatsword.
JosephKell 01-01-04, 12:55 AM	Originally posted by Fiendish Dire Weasel Not sure what difference Quick Draw would make. The problem is doing somthing with the bow when you whip out the greatsword, not actually pulling out the greatsword. Perhaps a Ranger should carry both a one handed weapon and a two-handed one. You can wield a one-handed or light weapon and carry something in your off hand. Example: Bow in off-hand, longsword in good hand.
Fiendish Dire Weasel 01-01-04, 01:07 AM	Thats exactly what my Ranger does, longbow in hand and then Quick Draw longsword when needed (keeping longbow in offhand). Have a buckler (now a Force Shield) for the extra AC when meleeing. When I'm done meleeing I move action to sheath the longsword and still can shoot or Manyshot. It's worked pretty well this far, I was just curious if there was some trick I was missing that would allow me to use a greatsword, though I'm not sure the difference in damage would be enough to sacrifice the AC.
JoostBuijs 01-01-04, 05:44 AM	Just my opinion I guess, take a lot more rogue levels for skill points, to be a good forward scout. Rogue 16/Ranger 2/Fighter 2 Rogue 13/Ranger 7 Rogue 10/Ranger 6/PrC 4 Rogue 7/Ranger 11/PrC 2
Snow Savant 01-01-04, 05:49 AM	Going back to the Alertness feat debate .... I have to say that the Alertness feat is a rather under-rated feat. In the right builds (usually Rangers & Rogues) and in the right campaign type, it can really be useful to the point where it becomes a consistent life-saver. In the case of Low-Tek's Ranger Scout, if he finally structures the build to be feat-heavy (with a lot of Ftr & PrC bonus feats and whatnot), he could have the luxury of introducing a vanity feat or a specialized feat like Alertness without comprising the build's strategic integrity. I tend to lump in Alertness with feats like Blindfight and Iron Will for being good "2nd Tier" feats that rarely get put into highly min-maxed combat builds, but really have strong utility when they are added. Rarely does the player regret not having such a feat in their build once a few play sessions gets under the character's belt. XO, Snow :)
Necroboy 01-01-04, 08:59 PM	Originally posted by JoostBuijs Just my opinion I guess, take a lot more rogue levels for skill points, to be a good forward scout. Rogue 16/Ranger 2/Fighter 2 Rogue 13/Ranger 7 Rogue 10/Ranger 6/PrC 4 Rogue 7/Ranger 11/PrC 2 Problem w/ Rogues are they don't get the combat capibilities of the Ranger and fall behinde in that catagory. I do like the OoTbi's little feat that allows them to use a bow in Melee combat. Toss in the +1d8 damage and they look like a good PrC. Now for the Oakbow (Oathbow)? in CW. It worth spending a feat on it or just get a Large bow for a -2 to hit and 2d6 damage.
JosephKell 01-01-04, 10:13 PM	You mean the Greatbow that does 1d10 damage.