Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Caelic 08-18-04, 05:27 PM	Just for kicks--and to see what it produces--I'd like to propose a friendly competition to see who can design the most demented technically-legal 3.5 character. The rules of this competition would be as follows: 1. 3.5 rules only. This means 3.5 rulebooks and rulebooks that have had official 3.5 updates released for them. 2. 190,000 experience points. You may use them for levels, Wishes, magic item production--your choice. 3. 28-point build. 4. 760,000 gp. For simplicity's sake, even characters who spend experience on things other than levels (and thus aren't level 20) will receive this amount. If your character has means of generating more wealth (and most will,) please note this in your build, but restrict yourself to the 760,000 for purposes of this contest--otherwise, the merits of the builds themselves will quickly be buried in tons of magic items and hirelings. 5. Original builds, please. The whole point of this is to see some NEW tricks, not the same half-dozen standard power-builds. It's acceptable to make use of a previously-discovered mechanism, as long as you put your own refinement on it, but please don't simply copy someone else's build. 6. Again, for simplicity's sake, characters will be assumed to have as much time as they need to make preparations. If you spend 10,000 experience points on magic items, you will be assumed to have the time to actually CREATE those magic items. 7. Builds will be judged by the members of the board, with each member voting for the build that he or she believes is the most potent. 8. As this is a rules lawyering tournament, the LETTER of the rules is what matters--not the spirit or intent. If it's legal by the letter of the rules, go for it! Fold, spindle, and mutilate the intent to your heart's content. Tauric paragon half-dragons? Go for it! Shadowcraft monstrosity Gnome mages? Go for it! (Of course, if you're not Snow Savant, please don't submit the build as it exists now--come up with your own take on the concept!) 9. Any saving throws required as part of creating your character will be considered natural 20's. (Someone creating a half-golem, for instance, would be considered to have rolled a natural 20 on the required saving throw.) 10. No custom magic items, please. Any interest in such a strictly-for-fun contest? Any suggestions on revisions to the rules?
Borin 08-18-04, 05:57 PM	I think one of the most demented spells is Simulacrum. It's already bad on it's own, but it gets worse when you cast the spell as a Supernatural Ability (Dweomerkeeper). Simple build: clr1/wiz9/dweomerkeeper10 (of course, you could replace wizard levels with PrCs, but that's not really important to abuse Simulacrum) I wrote this on another topic, no real reason to rewrite it all: === Let's look at a Dweomerkeeper with a focus on the arcane, a prayer bead of karma and a love for abusing Simulacrum. What happens when he casts Simulacrum with the Supernatural Spell ability? Apparently, Supernatural abilities don't have any components. So it seems this caster can just copy people/monsters without needing their bodyparts. Just Simu a Pit Fiend, you can do that as soon as you get Simulacrum (14th level: clr1/wiz4/dweomerkeeper9, perhaps some FR build can get there sooner). As you don't need any body parts and the spell doesn't mentioning that you need to have knowledge of the original creature, you could just pop out Pit Fiends. If you assume that because there are infinite-sized planes there will a possibility of having an infinite number of every creature imaginable, you could do some strange things. Get some prayer beads and imagine there's some bloke that also happens to be a dweomerkeeper at [your caster level +4(karma)]x2. You could create a spellcaster of higher level than you are, who could repeat the (silly) trick. === There is nothing that says you have to meet the creature you are making a copy of, since you don't need the bodypart anymore.
Caelic 08-18-04, 06:03 PM	For such a build, Borin, I would probably draw the line at allowing spontaneous creation of a creature you've never seen before. Whether or not there are infinite planes would vary from campaign to campaign, and thus not really be suitable for a "strictly by the letter of the rules" competition. Apart from that...no problem. By all means, put together the full build!
Borin 08-18-04, 06:50 PM	Well, there's not really much to put together. It only depends on being able to cast Simulacrum and getting your caster level higher than your actual level, which is easy with all the cheap caster-level items. [cleric1/wiz4/dweomerkeeper9] That's all you need. At 20th level we could have cleric1/wiz9/dwk10, caster level 19 (+4 karma beads +1orange Ioun stone and probably more of those items) About infinite planes: I didn't mean infinite number of planes, but planes that are infinite in size (MotP/PlanarHB). If you assume there will be an infinite number of creatures of every possible sort (which is not a really strange assumption when there are infinite-sized planes), then you could create youself at +4 levels. But this depends on the DM and the world you play in, though the default setting seems to allow it. Still, without the infinite-planes nonsense, we can assume there exists (for example) at least one Pit Fiend. Which means you could chuck out Pit Fiends 4/day, which gets silly. Just sit on that weird plane on which you could never completely die (can't remember which one that was) and spend all your time creating a simu-army and using Wishes to create items (you don't pay the xp cost because of Supernatural Spell) and then Gate to the Prime Material to completely dominate the world :) As for not having seen a creature: you could Planar Bind a Pit Fiend or some other powerful outsider, and just keep reprinting him. You could also do this without the SuSpell, but then it would cost money and xp. But the spell doesn't mention having seen something. These are the ridiculous RAW.
Caelic 08-18-04, 07:18 PM	Sure. Like I said: by all means, write it up. For my own build, I'm going to need to extend the ELH charts to approximately level 275...so, hey, I think I can give your army of Pit Fiends a run for their money with equally cheesy rules exploits. :)
Caelic 08-18-04, 07:57 PM	My own entry is a bit odd, and will take a little figuring to work out exactly how it all fits together. I'm starting with a Sylph Druid 9--effectively, a 17th-level character. I'm reserving the remaining 54,000 experience points for a very specific purpose: the repeated casting of Awaken spells. The loophole I'm exploiting isn't a new one: I'm going to wildshape into an animal and cast Awaken on myself, gaining 2 HD, 1d3 Charisma, and a reroll of my Intelligence. That makes me into a magical beast, but when I use wildshape again, my type once again becomes animal--and I repeat the process. This will net me a total of 220 Hit Dice...the question is, what type? I have to assume that they're Animal hit dice, as I'm in Animal form when I gain them...although Outsider hit dice would certainly be nice. As Hit Dice are most manifestly NOT one of the things gained or lost with a change in form, they stay with me when I resume my normal form. The new twist to this build is the synergy with Sylph. The Sylph casts spells as a Sorceror of a level equal to her Hit Dice plus 4...in my case, this results in a caster level of 236. On average, I'm going to net a +440 bonus to my Charisma...although a case could be made that this is an unnamed bonus, and therefore does not stack with itself. I would personally argue that it is not, as this gain is nowhere referred to as a bonus, but it could certainly be argued. If so, I'd have to make do with the 55 stat bonuses those Hit Dice will give me (Hit Dice, of course, are not a bonus of any kind, and therefore stacking is not an issue.) These hit dice will also net me a total of 77 Feats. I'm not quite sure how so many animal Hit Dice will work with the Epic rules--do I cease gaining BAB and base saves once my ECL hits 21 and shift instead to the epic bonuses?
Mucknuggle 08-18-04, 08:00 PM	Originally posted by Caelic Sure. Like I said: by all means, write it up. For my own build, I'm going to need to extend the ELH charts to approximately level 275...so, hey, I think I can give your army of Pit Fiends a run for their money with equally cheesy rules exploits. :) . . . :ee: This better be as good as you're making it sound Caelic. Now that you mentioned level 275, I have high expectations from you. :smirk:
Caelic 08-18-04, 08:18 PM	Well, 236, anyway. It didn't come out QUITE as high as I thought it would, when I sat down and did the math. Oh, well. :)
Aramek 08-18-04, 08:19 PM	I'm not quite sure how so many animal Hit Dice will work with the Epic rules--do I cease gaining BAB and base saves once my ECL hits 21 and shift instead to the epic bonuses? FINALLY something I know about. I am very familiar with the epic rules, and I have some good news. Character levels are the only things hindered after 20th. Hit Dice, is linear. 3/4 BaB, Good Fort, etc... These all gain normally after 20th level. So, lets say you havre a level 100 HD bear. bab = 75 Fort = 60 Ref = 30 Will = 30 Fun stuff isn't it? :smirk: For proof, look at the epic monsters. They clearly have 1 bab/HD even at 70 HD as some of them exibit as per their type.
Caelic 08-18-04, 08:25 PM	That was my inclination, Aramek, but I wasn't quite sure if a monster with character levels would be handled differently. Either way, the character's going to be pretty frickin' nasty. ;)
Elgonn 08-18-04, 08:59 PM	It is actually a simple rule. ELH page 7. Behind the Curtain: A Limit to Attacks and Saves This limit doesn't apply to the base attack bonus derived strictly from a monster's Hit Dice.
Eagle Prince 08-18-04, 09:21 PM	If I use Air domain to capture noble djinn and get 3 wishes, what is the cap on how many I can capture? I mean if I release them after the wishes, then go find another and command it, etc, how many djinn can I have?
Caelic 08-18-04, 09:21 PM	In the words of Ash: "Groovy." Now to cobble this into an actual...albeit vile...build.
Eagle Prince 08-18-04, 09:24 PM	Btw, if your Awaken trick works, I believe you would still only get the bonuses once because the same spell effect never stacks.
Elgonn 08-18-04, 09:28 PM	Originally posted by Caelic Now to cobble this into an actual...albeit vile...build. The arguable problem is when the slyph says: Sorcerer casting level = Slyph's Hit Dice It probably defauts to just slyph hit dice. Similar to how if something says "level" in context it means "class level". Otherwise reading that animal hit dice increase casting level would mean that even the druid levels your taking would increase it. Question: Can a slyph take a level in sorcerer and increase its sorcerer casting level or would it be like multiclassing?
Elgonn 08-18-04, 09:29 PM	Originally posted by Eagle Prince Btw, if your Awaken trick works, I believe you would still only get the bonuses once because the same spell effect never stacks. The spell is instantaneous. It stacks. There isn't an existing magical effect in existence each time it is cast for it to conflict with.
Eagle Prince 08-18-04, 09:39 PM	I don't know if that matters, using wish for an inherent bonus is also instantaneous and it does not stack with itself (unless using multiple wishes in a row, but the rules specifically state how to do that).
Eagle Prince 08-18-04, 09:52 PM	Originally posted by Eagle Prince If I use Air domain to capture noble djinn and get 3 wishes, what is the cap on how many I can capture? I mean if I release them after the wishes, then go find another and command it, etc, how many djinn can I have? I think I found a reasonable way to do this, tell me what you think. I use planar ally to summon the noble djinn, then use rebuke air to command it and get the 3 wishes, then tell him to beat it and release him. That way its not dependant on going out and finding one, and there is some cost to it because of the 250xp cost per casting. Reasonable?
HoshiAdam 08-18-04, 09:54 PM	Caelic, You could take Craft Wondrous Item and make a collar of awakening - a use-activated item that casts awaken on the animal it is on. Since you are casting it more than 50 times (I think), you can afford to spend the XP on a wondrous item. I'd recommend disallowing custom magic items in these builds.
Caelic 08-18-04, 10:30 PM	Originally posted by Elgonn The arguable problem is when the slyph says: Sorcerer casting level = Slyph's Hit Dice It probably defauts to just slyph hit dice. Similar to how if something says "level" in context it means "class level". Otherwise reading that animal hit dice increase casting level would mean that even the druid levels your taking would increase it. Oh, I don't think any DM on the planet would ALLOW what I'm doing...but, remember, this is strictly by the letter of the rules. The letter of the rules says "hit dice;" Awaken adds hit dice. As for class levels counting towards the Sylph's sorceror level, they seemingly do--certainly, there have been many Sylph builds on this board that rely on that fact. The "no custom magic items" clause is probably a good idea...what do other people think?
Caelic 08-18-04, 10:31 PM	Originally posted by Elgonn The arguable problem is when the slyph says: Sorcerer casting level = Slyph's Hit Dice It probably defauts to just slyph hit dice. Similar to how if something says "level" in context it means "class level". Otherwise reading that animal hit dice increase casting level would mean that even the druid levels your taking would increase it. Oh, I don't think any DM on the planet would ALLOW what I'm doing...but, remember, this is strictly by the letter of the rules. The letter of the rules says "hit dice;" Awaken adds hit dice. Spells normally don't stack, but instantaneous effects are a different matter. You can have Cure Light Wounds cast on you multiple times, for example; there's no issue with "stacking," because the effect is instantaneous. As for class levels counting towards the Sylph's sorceror level, they seemingly do--certainly, there have been many Sylph builds on this board that rely on that fact. The "no custom magic items" clause is probably a good idea...what do other people think?
Caelic 08-18-04, 10:34 PM	Originally posted by Eagle Prince I don't know if that matters, using wish for an inherent bonus is also instantaneous and it does not stack with itself (unless using multiple wishes in a row, but the rules specifically state how to do that). That particular application of wish isn't precisely the same situation, as it's adding a named bonus...and we all know how named bonuses work. Awaken isn't adding a named bonus, or even an unnamed bonus--it's simply adding Hit Dice. I agree that you could argue about the Charisma being a bonus, but there's no bonus in 3.5 that adds to Hit Dice.
Elgonn 08-18-04, 10:35 PM	Originally posted by Caelic Oh, I don't think any DM on the planet would ALLOW what I'm doing...but, remember, this is strictly by the letter of the rules. The letter of the rules says "hit dice;" Awaken adds hit dice. Actually they say 'sylph's hit dice' which implies something different than character level. Originally posted by Caelic As for class levels counting towards the Sylph's sorceror level, they seemingly do--certainly, there have been many Sylph builds on this board that rely on that fact. Presuming that "sorcerer" casting stacks on top of the Sylph instead of druid just take Generic Spellcaster levels (arcane). They operate just like sorcerer levels except you could take Awaken under your normal spell list.
Aramek 08-18-04, 10:36 PM	Custom Magic Items...especially high level ones are bad. We are all awfully smart min/maxxers so we can easily make that "Miracle as a free action at will infinite times" item easily.
PhoenixInferno 08-18-04, 10:47 PM	Originally posted by Eagle Prince I think I found a reasonable way to do this, tell me what you think. I use planar ally to summon the noble djinn, then use rebuke air to command it and get the 3 wishes, then tell him to beat it and release him. That way its not dependant on going out and finding one, and there is some cost to it because of the 250xp cost per casting. Reasonable? Heck, you might as well take Magical Training to learn arcane spells, then invest in Dweomerkeeper levels - make it supernatural for no cost at all - its the Rules Lawyer competition, remember? I think that's a pretty sweet idea though - why not use Noble Efreeti instead though? Too tough to bind?
Borin 08-18-04, 10:52 PM	Originally posted by PhoenixInferno Heck, you might as well take Magical Training to learn arcane spells, then invest in Dweomerkeeper levels - make it supernatural for no cost at all - its the Rules Lawyer competition, remember? I think that's a pretty sweet idea though - why not use Noble Efreeti instead though? Too tough to bind? Another way to reach the same goal: arcane dweomerkeeper using Planar Binding and Simulacrum to create Simulacræ of those wish-granting outsiders. It might not even be necessary to see them first.
Caelic 08-18-04, 10:55 PM	Originally posted by Elgonn Actually they say 'sylph's hit dice' which implies something different than character level. Well, yes, but there are many places in the book where they refer to "the character's hit dice" with the intention that class hit dice are included. If not, then every core race would perpetually be treated as a 0-HD character, since ALL of their Hit Dice come from class levels. The nine class levels are really not much of a factor, anyway--and all the rest are raw hit dice. Presuming that "sorcerer" casting stacks on top of the Sylph instead of druid just take Generic Spellcaster levels (arcane). They operate just like sorcerer levels except you could take Awaken under your normal spell list. ...but that wouldn't give me Wildshape, and I'd have to go to tenth level to get Awaken, rather than ninth--which would eat up a lot of the experience points I'm currently burning on Awakens. Now, the NEXT big question--what sort of 400-plus hit die form can I find to Shapechange into? I might as well, since my base Shapechange lasts for about 36 hours. Who needs Persistent? ;)
Zeffan the Fighting Man 08-18-04, 11:44 PM	Originally posted by Caelic My own entry is a bit odd, and will take a little figuring to work out exactly how it all fits together. I'm starting with a Sylph Druid 9--effectively, a 17th-level character. I'm reserving the remaining 54,000 experience points for a very specific purpose: the repeated casting of Awaken spells. The loophole I'm exploiting isn't a new one: I'm going to wildshape into an animal and cast Awaken on myself, gaining 2 HD, 1d3 Charisma, and a reroll of my Intelligence. That makes me into a magical beast, but when I use wildshape again, my type once again becomes animal--and I repeat the process. Sadly, it is not...the loop hole being new or even really being a "loop-hole" that is. My very first post on this board occured back in November of 2003 when my DM converted our 3.0 game to 3.5. I visited this board and posted on a thread called "highest 3.5 AC" found here. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=65339) As I recall nearly two pages were spent discussing this very idea...repeated awakenings on one's self until the AC went through the roof... and the cream of the CO crop shot it to h*ll :devil: Just a warning, Caelic...what if your re-roll of Int is a three? :drool: Drooling is all you'll be doing as you won't be able to "think" about much else.... :heehee Also the spell states it is specifically for raising an animal or tree to humanlike sentience or some such...you may be wildshaped into an animal form but a sylph ALREADY has humanlike sentience and would be unaffected by the spell. The Awaken spell is simply not "stackable" as written. It fails your contest rules and should not be allowed. Zeff
Eagle Prince 08-18-04, 11:55 PM	Originally posted by PhoenixInferno Heck, you might as well take Magical Training to learn arcane spells, then invest in Dweomerkeeper levels - make it supernatural for no cost at all - its the Rules Lawyer competition, remember? I think that's a pretty sweet idea though - why not use Noble Efreeti instead though? Too tough to bind? I think they are the same strength (noble djinn and efreeti), and I think efreeti has 3 wishes per day instead of just a one-time thing, right? That might work, I could look it up. A cleric who turns at lvl 20 could control 2 djinn/efreeti at a time, I think that might let them use 6 wishes in a row instead of just 3 to get the full +5 inherent bonus. Hmm... with these many wishes its starting to get dull. I mean if this Awaken trick is going to be legit, I could just wish for lots of polymorph and awaken scrolls and also do that trick, right?
PhoenixInferno 08-19-04, 12:34 AM	Yeah, that's true. Oh, y'know, I forgot that Dweomerkeeper doesn't advance turning abilities. I'm not sure how that affects the elemental turning/rebuking though, but I suppose there's no reason not to. Oh, by the way, if you rebuke Air elementals, you have the Air domain and can probably use Greater Planar Ally instead of G. Planar Binding to get them do what you want.
Thannin 08-19-04, 12:34 AM	My build! Race:Nixie(LA +3) Classes:Paladin 2/monk 2/marshal 1/cleric 1/forsaker 10/fighter 1 ECL:20 Str:13 dex: 23 con: 24 int: 22 wis: 32 char: 54 all stats have 5 wishes used prior to forsaker levels(assuming this build starts at 20) 32 point build. Saves: Fort:53 Ref:45 Will:51 SR:32(nixie sr)+20(forsaker sr:52 SR at level 17, spellcasters need a +32 for even a chance to get a spell accross. AC is around 60. Pick it apart, Ill post later, as far as I know Im the only one thats used BOED with nixie so far. Feats:Vow of poverty,Vow of nonviolence,Vow of peace, great fortitude,lightning reflexes, iron will, improved initiative,etc(will edit later if I remember)
Eagle Prince 08-19-04, 01:23 AM	Originally posted by PhoenixInferno Yeah, that's true. Oh, y'know, I forgot that Dweomerkeeper doesn't advance turning abilities. I'm not sure how that affects the elemental turning/rebuking though, but I suppose there's no reason not to. Oh, by the way, if you rebuke Air elementals, you have the Air domain and can probably use Greater Planar Ally instead of G. Planar Binding to get them do what you want. Yeah, don't know if you could get it to work with Dweom, since it doesn't increase turning and your turning needs to be at 20th level. Although if you got the phylactery of turning and Improved Turning feat then you would turn as a cleric 5 levels higher, which might let you tinker around with some PrCs. Efreeti says 1/day- grant up to three wishes to nongenies; its kind of wierd that it lists it as 1/day and then says 3 wishes instead of just saying wish 3/day. Unless it is trying to say that all the wishes have to be to the same person. Guess it doesn't matter too much for the build. So maybe Cleric 20 with Air and Fire domains, take control of two efreeti and two noble djinn. That gives you up to 12 wishes per day, but after the noble djinn grant their 3 wishes they are free, so you would have to continue replacing them with planar ally (or greater planar ally if you wanted to replace them both at the same time). Use starting gold for scrolls of planar ally, after you have the efreeti you can just wish for some more. Hmm, probably do starting stats at Str 10, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 14. +5 level boost to Wis, +5 inherent to all attributes. Improved Turning feat and phylactery of turning to boost turnings as 25th level cleric. Maybe Extend Spell, Persistant Spell, Divine Metamagic to get some persistant spells, namely greater aspect of the deity. Probably also two rings of three wishes, lol, and use efreeti to wish for all other equipment I want? Almost forgot, also need to max out UMD to make use of scrolls/staves/wands not on my spell list.
Caelic 08-19-04, 02:02 AM	Originally posted by Zeffan the Fighting Man Sadly, it is not...the loop hole being new or even really being a "loop-hole" that is. Just a warning, Caelic...what if your re-roll of Int is a three? :drool: Drooling is all you'll be doing as you won't be able to "think" about much else.... :heehee Letter of the rules, m'friend, letter of the rules. Nothing in the rules says that my drooling moron is in any way impeded by her utter lack of Intelligence. I can still cast my sorceror spells; I can still cast my druid spells. :) Also the spell states it is specifically for raising an animal or tree to humanlike sentience or some such...you may be wildshaped into an animal form but a sylph ALREADY has humanlike sentience and would be unaffected by the spell. Again, letter of the rules. While the spell does, indeed, mention that that is the intention, it makes NO mechanical provision for quantifying it. Would an animal with a three Intelligence be Awakenable? A five? What about a tree with a totally alien, non-"humanlike" intelligence? Could it be Awakened? We don't know, because they don't put in restrictions on WHICH animals may be "awakened to humanlike sentience." In terms of intent, I agree with you absolutely...but we've thrown intent and common sense out the window here. Mechanics-wise, the only stipulation is that the target must be an animal or tree. [/quote][/b] The Awaken spell is simply not "stackable" as written. It fails your contest rules and should not be allowed. [/B][/QUOTE] I'm afraid I'm going to have to cling to my vileness until someone finds a hard and fast rules citation that disallows either: 1. The stacking of instantaneous spells, 2. The Awakening of already-intelligent animals.
Caelic 08-19-04, 02:04 AM	Thannin, Just a couple of questions: 1. Where are you getting the wishes? You didn't burn the experience points for them yourself, and with Vow of Poverty, you wouldn't be able to buy them or buy Tomes. 2. How did you figure the Nixie's Spell Resistance to be 32? I see 16 in the MM.
Eagle Prince 08-19-04, 02:09 AM	What type of items are we limited to? If I can wish for 25,000gp per wish, can I save up a bunch and buy epic items? Even with no custom items, you could still get up to +12 enhancement to all attributes with the listed epic items.
Caelic 08-19-04, 02:09 AM	Originally posted by Eagle Prince I think they are the same strength (noble djinn and efreeti), and I think efreeti has 3 wishes per day instead of just a one-time thing, right? That might work, I could look it up. A cleric who turns at lvl 20 could control 2 djinn/efreeti at a time, I think that might let them use 6 wishes in a row instead of just 3 to get the full +5 inherent bonus. Hmm... with these many wishes its starting to get dull. I mean if this Awaken trick is going to be legit, I could just wish for lots of polymorph and awaken scrolls and also do that trick, right? Possibly--but only possibly. I see three major flaws with that line of reasoning: 1. The DM would have to rule that spontaneously creating magic items was possible with a Wish. Likely, but not certain. 2. Could you USE a scroll of Awaken? 3. Lastly--how will you cast Awaken while in animal form? I took the Druid levels specifically for Natural Spell. And, hey--I'm not using my 230th level spellcasting abilities to duplicate your Wish trick. Bad form to use your Wishes to duplicate MY cheese. ;)
Caelic 08-19-04, 02:14 AM	Originally posted by Eagle Prince What type of items are we limited to? If I can wish for 25,000gp per wish, can I save up a bunch and buy epic items? Even with no custom items, you could still get up to +12 enhancement to all attributes with the listed epic items. I'd like to see people stick to the standard 20th-level gold allowance, just because it would be nice to see the builds shine, rather than the toys and because infinite wealth tricks aren't all that hard to come by. That said, this IS a letter of the rules event, and Wish does provide for the creation of wealth and magic items. If that's the route you choose to pursue, I can hardly complain about the cheesiness of it, given what I'm trying to get away with.
Eagle Prince 08-19-04, 02:25 AM	If you turned into an ape, wouldn't you already have hands? Not sure about vocal component, but you could maybe use still/silent scrolls. On the other hand, you might be able to just use wish directly and not bother with the scrolls at all. Anyway, just wondering, wasn't planning on doing it. Plus one of the rules is it has to be your build, so it might be questionable to use someone else's "trick" so to speak. alright, hmm.. so I will also add these items gloves of epic dexterity +12 periapt of epic wisdom +12 cloak of epic charisma +12 headband of epic intellect +12 bracers of relentless might also persistant righteous might and greater aspect of the deity, so my modified attributes would be Str 39 Dex 29 Con 39 Int 33 Wis 40 Cha 35 I think I would also wish or buy golem manuals to create an army of golems, and use inherent bonuses and magic equipment to buff up my army (mostly for the efreeti, since in theory I would always have the same two of those). And top it off with some created and/or commanded deathless.
Caelic 08-19-04, 02:44 AM	You'd pretty much have to have Still and Silent--they make it pretty clear that animals can't talk, even if you change into, say, a parrot. Best if we each pursue our own route to cheesy goodness, though--otherwise, our builds will start to look very similar. Balor will use Simulacrae to get those Wishes to get those Awakens; I'll use massive-DC charm spells and Gates to get those Wishes to get the items; you'll use the Wishes to get the items to get the Awakens.
Eagle Prince 08-19-04, 02:50 AM	Yeah, thats basically what I was thinking too. ATM I think I am mostly focusing on a sort of general build also, secondary focus getting attributes high as possible with a 20th level human cleric. So after we get our builds done, then do we try finding rules to stop each other's builds?
ShadowCrown 08-19-04, 03:13 AM	Caelic- The reason the trick has been shot down before is this: awaken has a 24 hour casting time. Your character can currently only wildshape for nine hours at a time. That means that not only are you interrupted not even halfway through the spell by the standard action required to revert to sylph form, but by the end of the spell you're no longer a legal target. The latter /may/ be able to be dealt with; I think you determine the target of a spell at the end of the casting, but I might very well be wrong and there's probably an argument by the RAW that you're fine, but the interruption in the spell screws you. Edit: this means you have to use a also-druid cohort to cast the awaken spells, but you'll need to decide whether cohorts are legitimate in this competition.
Averien 08-19-04, 03:18 AM	Caelic- to tweak your idea a little more, use a Greater Rod of Maximize: All hit dice are maximized, the charisma is maximized, and you'll always wind up with Int 18. Also, why not throw in a level in Contemplative, and then 4 in Dweomerkeeper. Make Awaken a Supernatural spell. Something like: 1. Sylph 2. Sylph 3. Sylph 4. Sylph 5. Sylph 6. Sylph 7. Sylph 8. Sylph 9. Druid 10. Druid 11. Druid 12. Druid 13. Druid 14. Druid 15. Druid 16. Contemplative (Magic) 17. Dweomer Keeper 18. Dweomer Keeper 19. Dweomer Keeper 20. Dweomer Keeper Edit again: Make that Rapid Spell so the polymorphing time isn't boned. You certainly have the feats to get the Item Creation and Metamagic before that point; you meet the prereq's for sorcerer, and you get that delicious infinite loop with no XP cost.
Eagle Prince 08-19-04, 03:21 AM	Hmm... he also couldn't get so high if not for auto-success of the d20. I noticed one thing about buying items, even a planar metropolis is limited to 600,000gp so anything with a price higher than that you would have to make yourself... and since you can't have epic craft feats w/o epic feats, heh. So that will drop my attributes by 6, bleh.
Eagle Prince 08-19-04, 03:24 AM	Originally posted by Averien Caelic- to tweak your idea a little more, use a Greater Rod of Maximize: All hit dice are maximized, the charisma is maximized, and you'll always wind up with Int 18. Also, why not throw in a level in Contemplative, and then 4 in Dweomerkeeper. Make Awaken a Supernatural spell. ... You certainly have the feats to get the Item Creation and Metamagic before that point; you meet the prereq's for sorcerer, and you get that delicious infinite loop with no XP cost. I am looking at supernatural spell and it says the spell must have a casting time up to 1 standard action. Awaken is 24-hour casting time so you couldn't use that combo. edit: okay with the problems of casting awaken on yourself I was starting to think of getting around it with lets say my cleric using polymorph any object, then the genie casts wish to use awaken. If I then end the POA spell, do I keep the HD? Because it seems like they would go away when the spell ends. I will look into this... I think you would lose the HD when wildshape/polymorph/etc ended.
Eagle Prince 08-19-04, 03:56 AM	Originally posted by Caelic That particular application of wish isn't precisely the same situation, as it's adding a named bonus...and we all know how named bonuses work. Awaken isn't adding a named bonus, or even an unnamed bonus--it's simply adding Hit Dice. I agree that you could argue about the Charisma being a bonus, but there's no bonus in 3.5 that adds to Hit Dice. Okay so I started reading through the magic section and it doesn't say only "bonuses" it also includes attributes. So I don't think multiple awaken could ever work. Also, awaken says +2 HD. That looks like a modifier to me, so you might have trouble arguing its not in fact a bonus. And inherent might be a named bonus, but it doesn't matter if an effect is named or unamed it still doesn't stack if from the same spell.
youspoonybard 08-19-04, 04:01 AM	Can't you use the "Rapid Spell" metamagic feat in Complete Divine to lower the casting time of Awaken? Or not? I just packed all my books to go back to school; don't wanna unpack them just to check this one thing.
Eagle Prince 08-19-04, 04:11 AM	It says it changes casting time measured in hours to 1 hour casting time.
Averien 08-19-04, 06:01 AM	Boni don't stack, but this isn't a bonus: it's an effect. Instantaneous means it's a fundamental change: once it takes place, there is no more magic. Which means it is susceptable to it again if the initial requirements are met. That said, tilting the rules like Caelic did to make sure that you effectively always get the Will save always passes is a bit like stacking the deck, imo. But then, with infinite castings, it's not really an issue... even with the cap, he is getting the boost from the hit dice.... but he's going to be lagging *REALLY* far behind that dice curve after even a few applications of the spell.
Eagle Prince 08-19-04, 07:13 AM	Okay, lets say its an effect. The same effect does not stack either. Just like a bonus, you only get the best one... this is talked about in the magic chapter.
Borin 08-19-04, 07:48 AM	Originally posted by Caelic Best if we each pursue our own route to cheesy goodness, though--otherwise, our builds will start to look very similar. Balor will use Simulacrae to get those Wishes to get those Awakens; I'll use massive-DC charm spells and Gates to get those Wishes to get the items; you'll use the Wishes to get the items to get the Awakens. Of course the builds will tend to look very similar, there are only a few spells that allow infinite loops. The Road to Cheesiness is paved with Simulacræ, Wishes and Awakens.
Mucknuggle 08-19-04, 07:51 AM	Umm...I'm just wondering, can you use the Dweomerkeeper's Supernatural Spell ability to cast Epic level spells without the components? I know that this is OT, but if it is possible, I may be inclinced to come up with such a build...
Zeffan the Fighting Man 08-19-04, 10:18 AM	Originally posted by ShadowCrown Caelic- The reason the trick has been shot down before is this: awaken has a 24 hour casting time. Your character can currently only wildshape for nine hours at a time. That means that not only are you interrupted not even halfway through the spell by the standard action required to revert to sylph form, but by the end of the spell you're no longer a legal target. The latter /may/ be able to be dealt with; I think you determine the target of a spell at the end of the casting, but I might very well be wrong and there's probably an argument by the RAW that you're fine, but the interruption in the spell screws you. Edit: this means you have to use a also-druid cohort to cast the awaken spells, but you'll need to decide whether cohorts are legitimate in this competition. Glad you read the link I provided earlier, ShadowCrown... I provided it so as not to have to restate all the arguments presented before... Caelic, I understand rules lawyering--but there is a BIG difference between applying the rules as written and doing anything which is not specifically prohibited. I'll concede that the RAW would allow your character to cast his/her soceror and druid spells... but your statement-- Again, letter of the rules. While the spell does, indeed, mention that that is the intention, it makes NO mechanical provision for quantifying it. --flies in the face of good lawyering--the mention of 'intention' within a rule or law IS a 'mechanical provision' which can be subsequently used in applying said rule or law. In essance, the intention has become part of the letter as well as the spirit of the rules. Silly Rabbit! Trix are for kids! :D Believe me...I should know... :rolleyes: (...when I say beneath my member icon that my stomping grounds are in either the 7th, 8th or 9th curcuits...I'm refering to Judicial circuits of the U.S. Federal courts...) Zeff, esq.
SandisTheGOld 08-19-04, 10:48 AM	The VoP Monk forsaker is kind of ok because VoP grants all bonuses of a character of that level, so if he takes it at level 12 (after he already has 2 levels of forsaker) there isnt a problem, he just loses a few exalted bonus feats. However, A level 10 character wouldnt have enough money to pay for 5 wishes for all stats. So, if he gets all the money starting at level one, then sure it's Ok, but he definatly cant get all those wishes with 10th level starting wealth. dont epic items cost 10 times as much as normal ones? I mean, I think the best build would probably be one where someone creates an infinit money trick, and just buys hugetastic items. This is especially easy if you are actually allowing the purchasing of epic (and beyond) items. With infinit money, I could easily have an impenetrable spell resistance, an ac that nobody could touch, plus lots to all stats, and tons of bonus damage on a weapon. Heck, If I wanted, I could make my Level 1 commoner companion beat the toughest characters, cause there is nothing that always automatically instant kills. (unless of course you are playing 20's automatically hit) but even then, my commoner would be faster than you, almost definatly hit, and easily do enough damage to kill anyone who doesnt have infinit starting gp. just by wearing this belt of awesome I had crafted for him. -sandis
Zeffan the Fighting Man 08-19-04, 11:02 AM	Originally posted by SandisTheGOld The VoP Monk forsaker is kind of ok because VoP grants all bonuses of a character of that level, so if he takes it at level 12 (after he already has 2 levels of forsaker) there isnt a problem, he just loses a few exalted bonus feats. However, A level 10 character wouldnt have enough money to pay for 5 wishes for all stats. So, if he gets all the money starting at level one, then sure it's Ok, but he definatly cant get all those wishes with 10th level starting wealth. dont epic items cost 10 times as much as normal ones? I mean, I think the best build would probably be one where someone creates an infinit money trick, and just buys hugetastic items. This is especially easy if you are actually allowing the purchasing of epic (and beyond) items. With infinit money, I could easily have an impenetrable spell resistance, an ac that nobody could touch, plus lots to all stats, and tons of bonus damage on a weapon. Heck, If I wanted, I could make my Level 1 commoner companion beat the toughest characters, cause there is nothing that always automatically instant kills. (unless of course you are playing 20's automatically hit) but even then, my commoner would be faster than you, almost definatly hit, and easily do enough damage to kill anyone who doesnt have infinit starting gp. just by wearing this belt of awesome I had crafted for him. -sandis Rules Lawyer: "Objection, your honor--violation of contest rule # 10!" CO Board members sitting in Judgment: "Hummm....(looks at Caelic's first post...) counsel, you are correct! OBJECTION SUSTAINED." :smirk: (come on, Sandis--you can do better...) Zeff
SandisTheGOld 08-19-04, 11:15 AM	ok, so regardless of whether he is using a single belt of awesome, or several listed epic magic items, my argument still stands. And besides, its not like I was actually proposing a build I was planning on making or anything. btw, I think that nixie has a d6 hit die, which takes a level off of your character. but who cares about that extra fighter hanging off the end. -sandis
helicopter 08-19-04, 12:08 PM	snow savant has an awesome maho-tsukai build she made a long time ago that has a spellcaster level up in the 80's or so. uses a whole bunch of crazy classes like nar demionbinder, ur priest and a few others i'm not too familiar with. attack spell DC's are super high --- and spell reisistance doesnt mean anything with a caster level that high. the build also has access to just about every spell in the game and does cast 9th level spells. there was a trick involved with polymorph any other to meet some sort of require,ments, although youll have to ask her how she used it.
Piraatje 08-19-04, 12:24 PM	We need a timelimit. Why? Because i can easily build a character that produces 1k+ Mw Swords per day. Laugh all you want, but thats a steady income to buy hugeass magic items from ;)
Piraatje 08-19-04, 12:38 PM	Lets, for instance, assume that out of 1 cubic foot of metal i can make a Mw Dagger (which seems a bit much, but hey, cant find the rulings). This implies that, for 100.33 gold i can create a 301 gp item. At 20th level caster, thats 20 daggers PER fabricate. At 20th level wizard, thats 20 fabricates (not counting bonus spells from int or whatever!) per day. That allows us to create 400 daggers per day, each being worth a bit over 200gp, being a total of 80k daily. This is, of course, a bit on the cheap side. Lets skip over to .... 3.0 psionics. Lets us cast Genesis. This means we have a demiplane. Well, ehh, without any specified limits. So, we can have a year pass there for a year on the material plane. ALso, there we have Improved Fabricate which we can manifest (without counting bonus PP) 16 times per day. This allows us to change 10 cubic YARDS per level. 365 times. I dont even wanna know how much Mw Daggers i can produce here ;)
Caelic 08-19-04, 12:38 PM	Whoa. LOTS of stuff to respond to before I head off to have my wisdom teeth yanked. Okay, let's see what we've got: 1. Zeffan, I think you know me well enough to know that, under normal circumstances, I am in complete accordance with you on the issue of intent--that intent is a vital component of the rules, and that in order to be playable, the rules MUST be interpreted to some extent, and intent must play a part in that interpretation. This competition, however, is not normal circumstances. Nor am I attempting to create a build based on "It doesn't say I can't!" I'm creating a build based on "The rules state this, and no more." The rules state that the target must be an animal or a tree. The rules do not state that the animal or tree must be of a given intelligence level; nor do they provide any sort of standard for what is considered "humanlike intelligence." Therefore, ANY restriction on which animals can and cannot be Awakened is subjective interpretation on the part of the DM--VERY justified, but still subjective interpretation, and therefore not appropriate for a "letter of the rules, intent be damned" sort of contest. 2. Eagle Prince--there's a difference between an ongoing magical effect and a spell that causes a change instantaneously and is then done. Bull's Strength creates an ongoing magical effect; it has a duration, it can be dispelled. Cure Light Wounds does NOT create an ongoing magical effect; it is instantaneous. It results in a change to one of my stats (my hit points,) just like Awaken results in a change to one of my stats (my hit dice.) Those extra hit points can't be taken away with a Dispel, and I can receive DOZENS of castings of CLW in rapid succession. Why? Because it's not creating an ongoing magical effect. Can you find me a spell with a duration of "instantaneous" that actually creates a clear, unambiguous ongoing effect? If not, then I must submit that Awaken is functionally more similar to a Cure spell than a Bull's Strength. 3. "Rapid Spell" does, indeed, figure into my plans for this build, and is necessary to make it functional. My fault for not posting the complete build yet, but I haven't had time to extrapolate all the charts necessary. 4. And now, sadly, I must shoot down my OWN build, as a rereading has discovered a fatal flaw. The Sylph's description, upon careful reading, does indeed give her a caster level equal to her hit dice +4...but it also gives her a FIXED number of spells known and spells per day. These are not listed as an example for a typical Sylph; the entry says that she gets a caster level of X, spells per day of Y, and spells known of Z. Consequently--by the letter of the rules--my Sylph will have a stratospheric caster level, but still only be able to cast fourth level spells. Ah, well. Live by the RAW, die by the RAW.
Piraatje 08-19-04, 12:42 PM	Actually, a yard being 3 feet, this implies 27 daggers created per caster level. 27*20*200 = 108k per casting 16 a day is = 1.7M per genesis day 165 in a RL day = 630Mgc per material day There. Endless items. Did i win yet? :)
Caelic 08-19-04, 12:42 PM	Piraatje, This is why I said that I'd prefer to see people stick to the budget listed in the first entry--otherwise, EVERYONE is going to have an infinite amount of money, be it from Wishes, Siberys Marks, Fabricates, or what-have-you. It's NOT hard to get infinite wealth, strictly by the letter of the rules. Nor am I suggesting that such a character wouldn't do so...it's just that the actual builds, and the tricks which make them go, are going to tend to get obscured beneath all of the magical toys. It might be better simply to present the build with the budget listed, and then make the point in your description that said build could then go on to create an infinite amount of wealth with which to buy additional items. That's definitely a point in its favor, but since we're not actually going to be having these monstrosities fighting it out, there's no actual need to buy the items.
Piraatje 08-19-04, 12:48 PM	Then say extra wealth doesnt count AT ALL ;) Who knows what i can hire with my infinite stack of cheese psion stuff?
Caelic 08-19-04, 12:52 PM	Well, what "counts" and what doesn't is subjective, as this is going to boil down to people voting for the build they think is the most potent. Wealth, though, is likely to be a non-factor, since EVERYONE will have some way to generate ludicrous amounts of wealth. Hey, I can afford to be an impartial judge, now, having shot down my own build. :)
Piraatje 08-19-04, 12:54 PM	Unlimited wealth buys unlimited resources aka unlimited hirelings aka unlimited power. Best to remove that from the equasion ;)
Caelic 08-19-04, 01:01 PM	Probably so, but if everyone has unlimited hirelings and power, then the builds will have to be judged on their other merits. More to the point, I don't think "unlimited wealth" necessarily equates to "unlimited hirelings" OR "unlimited power." You're still limited by the availability of hirelings, and the availability of goods to purchase. You can't hire a 200th level mage if there's not one waiting to be hired, and you can't purchase Epic items if there's not a city large enough to have them available for sale. An army of six billion torchbearers looks impressive, but they're still torchbearers. ;) Still, you're right--best to codify that into the rules.
Zeffan the Fighting Man 08-19-04, 03:00 PM	Bold text originally posted by Caelic Whoa. LOTS of stuff to respond to before I head off to have my wisdom teeth yanked. Okay, let's see what we've got: Yikes! I had all four of mine removed decades ago...no fun. The lower ones especially, s#cked! 1. Zeffan, I think you know me well enough to know that, under normal circumstances, I am in complete accordance with you on the issue of intent--that intent is a vital component of the rules, and that in order to be playable, the rules MUST be interpreted to some extent, and intent must play a part in that interpretation. This competition, however, is not normal circumstances. Nor am I attempting to create a build based on "It doesn't say I can't!" I'm creating a build based on "The rules state this, and no more." The rules state that the target must be an animal or a tree. The rules do not state that the animal or tree must be of a given intelligence level; nor do they provide any sort of standard for what is considered "humanlike intelligence." Therefore, ANY restriction on which animals can and cannot be Awakened is subjective interpretation on the part of the DM--VERY justified, but still subjective interpretation, and therefore not appropriate for a "letter of the rules, intent be damned" sort of contest. I'm flattered, Caelic--I place you among the very best posters on this Board...but, I am far too inexperienced in the 2.0, 3.0 and/or 3.5 D&D systems to know your mind in these things. The "intent" language of the spell actually says something along the lines of "humanlike sentience"--whatever that is. The point is once that has been acheived, it cannot be acheived again--sort of like being pregnant--you either are or you aren't! Which is my point, the Awaken spell can't be cast a a subject repeatedly BECAUSE of that language in the body of the spell...i.e. the Rules as Written. So your contention that whether a creature is an eligible target for multiple castings of the Awaken spell or NOT is a solely subjective decision is simply not supported and, therefore, is not R.A.W. Now, Caelic, if you argue that you'll assume a new form for each subsequent casting of Awakening, you're still not using the Rules as Written. You are simply doing what is not been specifically prohibited--which is allowable under the parameters of your contest....However, as the underlying character has already been "awakened" with the spell, the spell --as written-- will still not work in a "repeated" or "stacking" fashion on a single target. Further, since the character upon whom it is cast already has "humanlike sentience" the Awakening spell would not only fail on all subsequent castings...it would have also failed the first time it was cast on your character. Your character is not an unawakened target--which is to say of regular animal or tree sentience--...a target upon which the spell would work! Ah, well. Live by the RAW, die by the RAW. Too bad!, You'd get an "A" for effort... ;) Zeff
Dragan_Timeripper 08-19-04, 03:34 PM	Hello all, Question: Does the 28-point build include the statistic increases for leveling or not? This changes things drastically. After this, I will post my response. Happy Gaming all.
Caelic 08-19-04, 04:05 PM	The 28 points is base, and does not include stat increases with level.
Eagle Prince 08-19-04, 04:21 PM	I'm getting sick of arguing over awaken anyway, and playing with 12+ wishes a day. Anyway, the glossary defines animal with "animals always have an Intelligence score of 1 or 2". So wildshape is never going to work, right? Even if this trick works somehow, you'd need at least polymorph any object. I also found another quote "an animal has an Intelligence score of 1 or 2. A creature of humanlike intelligence has a score of at least 3." I was actually looking for a rule I remember seeing about a PC needing at least an Int of 3, plus I would never let you try arguing that awaken stacks because healing spells stack... also, I already mentioned inherent bonus which is instantaneous effect that doesn't stack.
amalcon 08-19-04, 04:36 PM	Edit: Nevermind.
Zeffan the Fighting Man 08-19-04, 04:43 PM	Originally posted by amalcon Edit: Nevermind. agreed
olothfaern 08-19-04, 05:28 PM	... I'll post a build, and I must assume this has been done before, but I got away with murder yesterday... I'm a Cleric (how better to abuse the rules), and I cast persistant Favor of Illmater, followed by persistant Monsterous Regeneration, Energy Immunity (fire), Energy Immunity (acid) , so far pretty standard... but I finished with a persistant Dweomer of Transference (I'm an elan, thus a psionic creature) yes, I have extend spell, persistant spell, divine metamagic (persistant), extra turning * 2 from SRD Dweomer of Transference Evocation Level: Cleric 4, sorcerer/wizard 4 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 minute Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target: One willing psionic creature Duration: 1 round/level Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) With this spell, you form a radiating corona around the head of a psionic ally, then convert some of your spells into psionic power points. When you finish casting dweomer of transference, a red-orange glow surrounds the psionic creature’s head. For the duration of the spell, any spells cast at the subject don’t have their usual effect, instead converting themselves harmlessly into psionic energy that the subject can use as energy for psionic powers. You can cast any spell you like at the subject, even area spells, effect spells, and spells for whom the subject would ordinarily not be a legitimate target. The spells don’t do anything other than provide the subject with power points, but you must still cast them normally, obeying the component and range requirements listed in the description of each spell. For each spell you cast into the dweomer of transference, the psionic creature gets temporary power points, according to the following table. The transference isn’t perfectly efficient. The temporary power points acquired through a dweomer of transference dissipate after 1 hour if they haven’t already been spent. boldtype by me I suppose this should've gone in Snow's 'spells you make good' thread, but I was reading this and it seemed pretty RAW...
Eagle Prince 08-19-04, 05:35 PM	Originally posted by Borin I think one of the most demented spells is Simulacrum. It's already bad on it's own, but it gets worse when you cast the spell as a Supernatural Ability (Dweomerkeeper). Simple build: clr1/wiz9/dweomerkeeper10 (of course, you could replace wizard levels with PrCs, but that's not really important to abuse Simulacrum) ... === There is nothing that says you have to meet the creature you are making a copy of, since you don't need the bodypart anymore. Don't know if anyone else mentioned this yet, supernatural spell can only be applied to casting time of no more than 1 standard action and simulacrum takes 12 hours. Thus unusable with supernatural spell.
Elgonn 08-19-04, 05:41 PM	Or you can do it without the dweomerkeeper ability. Innate Spell & Supernatural Transformation will make any spell have an activation of a standard action and no V, S, M, F, DF, XP components.
Eagle Prince 08-19-04, 05:45 PM	That might work, but has Savage Species been updated to 3.5 rules or supernatural transformation feat appeared in a 3.5 book? Otherwise it doesn't qualify for the contest.
Elgonn 08-19-04, 05:56 PM	An SS update? None that I am aware of. But WotC claimed SS was 3.5 in the chats before hand. It either was the first 3.5 compliant book or it was supposed to be the first. It is entirely opinion. The book is always trouble.
Eagle Prince 08-19-04, 09:14 PM	True, I had forgotten that. It was sort of on the verge of being 3.5, but not all of it really matched up. So it might count as 3.5, assuming someone wants to still try it for a build.
Caelic 08-19-04, 09:17 PM	SS is weird, yeah. I, for one, wouldn't have a problem with people making use of it for builds. Oh, by the way..."ow."
Eagle Prince 08-19-04, 09:36 PM	Wait, I lent out my copy of SS. Does it actually say it negates components, because I think the archmage ability to make it a spell-like says you still need to pay pricey components. Dweom specifically says you don't have any components. I forget exactly what supernatural transformation says, but if it doesn't specifically say you lose the components then I don't know if it would. This is assuming you are getting the SLA from something like Archmage that says you still pay pricey component costs even though its spell-like, and if you found a way to do that then I doubt you'd even need the Supernatural Transformation feat. But I'm only assuming the feat mentions nothing of components, if it does then I guess it would still work.
Previn 08-19-04, 11:19 PM	Originally posted by Eagle Prince I'm getting sick of arguing over awaken anyway, and playing with 12+ wishes a day. Anyway, the glossary defines animal with "animals always have an Intelligence score of 1 or 2". So wildshape is never going to work, right? Even if this trick works somehow, you'd need at least polymorph any object. I also found another quote "an animal has an Intelligence score of 1 or 2. A creature of humanlike intelligence has a score of at least 3." I was actually looking for a rule I remember seeing about a PC needing at least an Int of 3, plus I would never let you try arguing that awaken stacks because healing spells stack... also, I already mentioned inherent bonus which is instantaneous effect that doesn't stack. 1) Awakening yourself is offical, as far as the sage and customer service are concerned, both have stated that it is possible. 2) Read the stacking rules both in the book, and as clarifed on WotC's Dnd site, which clearly and unequivocally supports multiple awakens. 3) Wild Shape gives you the animal type, thus making you a legal target, regardless of your intelligence. 4) As long as you are of the animal type, you are a legal target for the spell. Refence targets in the PHB and recent targeting rules as clarifed on WotC's Dnd site. 5) It's magic, which how the rules make that magic work, it works.
SuperThread 08-19-04, 11:31 PM	Since I'm not inclined to write up a full build, I'll just throw in a quick idea: Caelic, why don't you purchase a Rod of Excellent Magic for your Awaken build (assuming it isn't rules-lawyered out of existance)? Infinite Hit Dice!
Eagle Prince 08-19-04, 11:33 PM	Huh, so even though it says humanlike intelligence is 3, awaken gives you humanlike intelligence which the druid already has, animal type says they always have Int 1-2... yeah, but its magic so it works. If Sage said you can cast awaken on yourself multiple times, at least post the link because there is no way in hell he did.
Elgonn 08-19-04, 11:38 PM	Originally posted by SuperThread Caelic, why don't you purchase a Rod of Excellent Magic for your Awaken build I guess the question is are you restricted from buying epic items. Or even if you can buy an epic item can you buy one worth more than 85% of your total wealth. What is the old DMG recommendation for what percentage of wealth should be in 1 item? 40%?
Skulan 08-20-04, 12:44 AM	Well, if the only major objection to the Awaken trick is already having humanlike intelligence, there is a possible way around it. This does involve a team effort, though, and if cohorts aren't allowed, then it'll be hard to pull off. The basic concept is simple, though. Feeblemind. Boom, you have an Int of 1, and are pretty much an animal in mind as well as body (assuming you're wildshaped). Now, this also means that you can't cast spells, and as your charisma drops to 1 as well, any cohorts you have to help with the Awaken and such will probably bolt. But it is an option to look into. Now that you've got the benefits of multiple Awakens worked out, see if you can work your way around a Feeblemind to silence all objectors. There ought to be a way, though I personally don't have the patience to look for it. The inifinite-wish character might have better luck. -Skulan
Eagle Prince 08-20-04, 02:06 AM	I don't think the 1 or 2 Int is the only problem. The main thing is multiple bonuses/effects don't stack if they are from the same source, they overlap. But another way around the Int thing I already mentioned is polymorph any object which gives you the Int of whatever you turn into.
amalcon 08-20-04, 02:15 AM	Originally posted by Eagle Prince I don't think the 1 or 2 Int is the only problem. The main thing is multiple bonuses/effects don't stack if they are from the same source, they overlap. This is only true of bonuses. Multiple magical EFFECTS from the same source can in fact stack, unless they specifically state otherwise (usually by being a bonus, sometimes with specific clauses such as Enlarge Person's "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack." SRD: You awaken a tree or animal to humanlike sentience. To succeed, you must make a Will save (DC 10 + the animal’s current HD, or the HD the tree will have once awakened). The awakened animal or tree is friendly toward you. You have no special empathy or connection with a creature you awaken, although it serves you in specific tasks or endeavors if you communicate your desires to it. An awakened tree has characteristics as if it were an animated object, except that it gains the plant type and its Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores are each 3d6. An awakened plant gains the ability to move its limbs, roots, vines, creepers, and so forth, and it has senses similar to a human’s. An awakened animal gets 3d6 Intelligence, +1d3 Charisma, and +2 HD. Its type becomes magical beast (augmented animal). An awakened animal can’t serve as an animal companion, familiar, or special mount. An awakened tree or animal can speak one language that you know, plus one additional language that you know per point of Intelligence bonus (if any). XP Cost: 250 XP. None of these increases are bonuses.
Eagle Prince 08-20-04, 02:41 AM	Originally posted by amalcon This is only true of bonuses. Multiple magical EFFECTS from the same source can in fact stack, unless they specifically state otherwise (usually by being a bonus, sometimes with specific clauses such as Enlarge Person's "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack." None of these increases are bonuses. How is a +2 or +1d3 not a bonus? And if you want to call it an effect, it still isn't true. Bonus or effect do not stack. Multiple magical effects from the same source never stack, they overlap. Effect, bonus, penalty, it doesn't matter. If its from the same source it does not stack, if you have multiple ones you only get the best one.
Necrotic Monkey 08-20-04, 03:43 AM	Originally posted by Caelic The loophole I'm exploiting isn't a new one: I'm going to wildshape into an animal and cast Awaken on myself, gaining 2 HD, 1d3 Charisma, and a reroll of my Intelligence. That makes me into a magical beast, but when I use wildshape again, my type once again becomes animal--and I repeat the process. Three big problems with that plan. 1. Wild Shape only lasts for one hour per druid level. Awaken takes 24 levels to cast. Unless you have Rapid Spell or a similar feat or ability, your plan fails before it even has a chance to begin. 2. Assuming you get around that problem, it's your animal form -- not you -- that gains +2 HD. As soon as you revert to your natural form, those benefits disappear along with all of the other physical traits you gained as the animal, including the new form's hit dice. 3. Wild Shape gives you the physical abilities of the form you transform into. It has no effect on your mind. The Intelligence and Charisma modifiers would have no effect on you because they affect the attributes of your animal form, not your own.
Zeffan the Fighting Man 08-20-04, 08:26 AM	Originally posted by Previn 1) Awakening yourself is offical, as far as the sage and customer service are concerned, both have stated that it is possible. 2) Read the stacking rules both in the book, and as clarifed on WotC's Dnd site, which clearly and unequivocally supports multiple awakens. :uh-huh: I'm stunned. Then again, with the Supreme Court of the U.S. interpreting the Constitution on a whim at times, :twitch: how can I be suprised that WoTC has done the same thing. :bored: I guess I expected them to take the rules they wrote themselves much more seriously. :looloo: What was I thinking?!?:banghead: Humor me, Previn, and give me evidence of your claims? Thanks, bud! I'd love to see what sort of verbal sewage they use to overcome this: Awaken SRD:...You awaken a tree or animal to humanlike sentience.... How in :censored: does one do THAT repeatedly... legal answer: Very Carefully! :rofl: That's why I love this board, it puts the rest of my work into proper perspective... ...you just can't take anything too seriously, :headexplo especially this game! :heehee Zeff
Caelic 08-20-04, 08:34 AM	Originally posted by Previn 1) Awakening yourself is offical, as far as the sage and customer service are concerned, both have stated that it is possible. 2) Read the stacking rules both in the book, and as clarifed on WotC's Dnd site, which clearly and unequivocally supports multiple awakens. 3) Wild Shape gives you the animal type, thus making you a legal target, regardless of your intelligence. 4) As long as you are of the animal type, you are a legal target for the spell. Refence targets in the PHB and recent targeting rules as clarifed on WotC's Dnd site. 5) It's magic, which how the rules make that magic work, it works. Pretty much what I thought. Thanks, Previn. Once again: I'd never try it in an actual game, I'd never ALLOW it in an actual game, but the whole point of this was letter-of-the-rules cheesiness. Alas, unless I can find some sort of official ruling that states that a Sylph DOES gain spells as she gains caster level, my build is still dead in the water.
Caelic 08-20-04, 08:46 AM	Originally posted by Eagle Prince How is a +2 or +1d3 not a bonus? And if you want to call it an effect, it still isn't true. Bonus or effect do not stack. Multiple magical effects from the same source never stack, they overlap. Effect, bonus, penalty, it doesn't matter. If its from the same source it does not stack, if you have multiple ones you only get the best one. Prince, Now, c'mon...that's just not true, and I've already cited cases where it's not true. Cure spells are a stackable magical effect. Restoration spells create a stackable magical effect...or are you going to say that if five Lesser Restoration spells are cast on you, they heal a total of 4 points of ability damage? Rusting Grasp creates a stackable effect--I can rust the same object more than once, if it's too large to be rusted through on the first try. Ray of Enfeeblement creates a stackable magical effect--I can cast it on you over and over again, down to a minimum of one. Ditto Enervation, and these latter two DO create ongoing effects that can be undone. There are LOTS of magical effects that stack with themselves.
Caelic 08-20-04, 08:54 AM	Originally posted by Necrotic Monkey Three big problems with that plan. 1. Wild Shape only lasts for one hour per druid level. Awaken takes 24 levels to cast. Unless you have Rapid Spell or a similar feat or ability, your plan fails before it even has a chance to begin. True. Rapid Spell is needed to make the trick work, 2. Assuming you get around that problem, it's your animal form -- not you -- that gains +2 HD. As soon as you revert to your natural form, those benefits disappear along with all of the other physical traits you gained as the animal, including the new form's hit dice. Logically, it does seem like it should, doesn't it? What you have to remember, though, is that we're dealing with two discrete magical effects here. Wild Shape does not affect Hit Dice in any way, shape, or form--you don't gain or lose hit dice when you change TO an animal, and you don't gain or lose hit dice when you change back FROM an animal. 3. Wild Shape gives you the physical abilities of the form you transform into. It has no effect on your mind. The Intelligence and Charisma modifiers would have no effect on you because they affect the attributes of your animal form, not your own. Not so. The animal gains those bonuses. When I'm in Wild Shape, I am an animal. My normal Intelligence and Charisma ARE the attributes of my animal form. (Now, granted, this creates a significant rules conflict, since ordinarily any animal with an Intelligence of 3 or more is considered a Magical Beast...but, hey, I'll leave THAT particular screw-up for WotC to resolve.) Seriously, folks--it seems like a lot of people are attempting to apply common sense to this. Don't. When it comes to common sense, logic, rules intent, and every other interpretation that makes sense, I'm in complete agreement with you that this shouldn't work. Strictly by the rules, though, it does work.
amalcon 08-20-04, 09:43 AM	Originally posted by Eagle Prince How is a +2 or +1d3 not a bonus? It's not a bonus because it's an increase. These are technically two different things. I don't like the rules implications any more than you do, but the point of this thread is to interpret the rules entirely too literally anyway.
Elgonn 08-20-04, 10:32 AM	Originally posted by Caelic Ray of Enfeeblement creates a stackable magical effect--I can cast it on you over and over again, down to a minimum of one. Okay all the other examples made sense. This one is wrong though.
Zeffan the Fighting Man 08-20-04, 11:53 AM	Originally posted by Caelic Pretty much what I thought. Thanks, Previn. Once again: I'd never try it in an actual game, I'd never ALLOW it in an actual game, but the whole point of this was letter-of-the-rules cheesiness. Sorry, Caelic, But I'm still waiting for proof of Pervin's claim...simply saying it doesn't make it so. Rules as written means ....rules as written...--right?;) Zeff
Caelic 08-20-04, 01:19 PM	I'm willing to trust Previn on this one, because I remember him doing the legwork the last time this issue came up. Maybe once the search function is actually working again, we can track down the thread. Elgonn, Why, precisely, is my Ray of Enfeeblement example wrong? Are you saying it can't be cast on the same target more than once?
Elgonn 08-20-04, 01:25 PM	Originally posted by Caelic Why, precisely, is my Ray of Enfeeblement example wrong? Are you saying it can't be cast on the same target more than once? Ray of Enfeeblement gives a penalty to str (a negative bonus). Even if you hit them again the penalties don't stack they just overlap giving the greater of the two.
Previn 08-20-04, 01:28 PM	Originally posted by Zeffan the Fighting Man Humor me, Previn, and give me evidence of your claims? Thanks, bud! If you're asking for confirmation of the sage or of customer service, you're going to have to contact them yourself, I don't archive their offical responses. If you are asking about targeting, I once again refer you to the targeting rules, both as written in the PHB and as recently discussed on the WotC DnD webpage. The target is "Animal or tree touched," that's it, nothing else. It has no other limitations. If you are of the animal or plant type, you are a legal target. Even if you want to claim that "You awaken a tree or animal to humanlike sentience," there is no restriction that animal/plant cannot already have human-like sentience. That's you reading something that is not there.
Elgonn 08-20-04, 01:36 PM	The point he can argue is that the glossary defines an Animal is having only 1 or 2 intelligence. MM page 306 Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal). Which means even though the Druid gets the Animal type he still isn't an animal. Although he could just artificially take some ability damage to qualify.
Zeffan the Fighting Man 08-20-04, 03:02 PM	Bold type originally posted by Previn If you're asking for confirmation of the sage or of customer service, you're going to have to contact them yourself, I don't archive their offical responses. :rofl: Classic! Ever here of proving a negative? You, too, should try it some time... :rolleyes: :rofl: If you are asking about targeting, I once again refer you to the targeting rules, both as written in the PHB and as recently discussed on the WotC DnD webpage. Well, really I'm not, as my argument is that a sentient creature cannot be a valid target of the spell at all ....but I am confused as to how your response to my query satisfies my request for information-- :confused: Where did you say that was again? No Link to the webpage? A citation to specific section or page of the PHB...? Anything at all? ;) ...refering me to the targeting rules in general ain't much help, Previn! I'm looking for rules that SUPPORT the contention that Awaken may be cast on sentient creatures multiple times for multiple effect...anything at all? No...? Maybe later, then! :ayyyy!: The target is "Animal or tree touched," that's it, nothing else. It has no other limitations. If you are of the animal or plant type, you are a legal target. Even if you want to claim that "You awaken a tree or animal to humanlike sentience," there is no restriction that animal/plant cannot already have human-like sentience. That's you reading something that is not there. :nonono: sigh! :teach: "objection--Asked and answered!' (see my earlier posts--read them CAREFULLY.) ttfn :tiphat: Zeff
Previn 08-20-04, 03:13 PM	Originally posted by Elgonn The point he can argue is that the glossary defines an Animal is having only 1 or 2 intelligence. Which means even though the Druid gets the Animal type he still isn't an animal. Although he could just artificially take some ability damage to qualify. The point can't be argued. You're suffering from selective reading. Having an intelligence of 1 or 2 is not a requisit of being an animal, it is a typical trait. Wishing a cat's intelligence to 3 does not change the cat's type, or make it no longer a cat. This is, in fact explicitly stated in the MM, Pg. 68 (bold emphasis is mine): Animal Traits: An animal posses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry). Having an intelligence of less than 3 may be the normal, but it is not the rule. There are exceptions, which is exactly what we have here.
Caelic 08-20-04, 03:13 PM	Originally posted by Elgonn The point he can argue is that the glossary defines an Animal is having only 1 or 2 intelligence. Which means even though the Druid gets the Animal type he still isn't an animal. Although he could just artificially take some ability damage to qualify. Actually, it could just as easily be taken to mean that a good portion of the Druid's arsenal of tricks is illegal--if he can't be an animal, he can't make use of Nature's Favor, Animal Growth, or any of the other standbys of 3.5. One way or the other, folks--either he's an animal, in which case he's a valid target for Awaken, or he's NOT an animal, in which case just about every 3.5 Druid build ever posted here is illegal. Which is it?
Elgonn 08-20-04, 03:17 PM	Originally posted by Previn Having an intelligence of less than 3 may be the normal, but it is not the rule. There are exceptions, which is exactly what we have here. I'm pretty sure Caelic's character doesn't have an MM entry. Which is the "only" way an exception would work. Originally posted by Caelic Which is it? No clue.. It isn't a rule but could the reason a Awakened animal gets a new type of Magical Beast (augmented animal) isn't because of the spell or being sentient but a byproduct of having 3+ int?
Previn 08-20-04, 03:25 PM	Originally posted by Zeffan the Fighting Man I'm looking for rules that SUPPORT the contention that Awaken may be cast on sentient creatures multiple times for multiple effect...anything at all? Please provide a direct quote that a creature must, or must not be sentient for this spell.
Previn 08-20-04, 03:32 PM	Originally posted by Elgonn I'm pretty sure Caelic's character doesn't have an MM entry. Which is the "only" way an exception would work. I'll point out that you are now suffering from adding words, specifically that is must be a MM entry, when all that is stated is entry. Caelic's character sheet is an entry. You are correct that the creature takes on the type of magical beast, but wild shaping again changes the type back to animal each time it is used. Why the target takes on the magical beast type is unknown, and can't be argued for in any logical way given the limited information.
Caelic 08-20-04, 03:33 PM	Zeffan, On this, I still have to go with Previn--even though I don't like this particular loophole and would never allow it. The support is the fact that the stated target is "Target animal or tree." What an animal is in 3.5 is clearly defined--it's a creature with the type "animal." While the spell does, indeed, say that it awakens a creature to humanlike sentience, it doesn't say that it only AFFECTS creatures without humanlike sentience. Consider Panacea, which cures disease, poison, insanity, and a slew of other things. That doesn't mean you can't cast it on someone who's NOT poisoned, diseased, and/or insane. Consider, for a moment, the fact that "awakening an animal to humanlike sentience" is clearly NOT all the spell does. Humanlike sentience has nothing to do with becoming significantly stronger, sturdier, and more charismatic...all of which are granted by the spell. Now, let me ask you--why would the spell make a squirrel with a two Intelligence bigger and stronger and more persuasive, but have no effect whatsoever on a squirrel with a three Intelligence? This is one of those things that's legal by the rules--like tripping a creature who's already prone--but stupid. It's the DM's job to take one look at such a rule, say "No, that's stupid," and smack the player trying to abuse it upside the head.
Previn 08-20-04, 03:40 PM	Originally posted by Caelic This is one of those things that's legal by the rules--like tripping a creature who's already prone--but stupid. :rofl: I'm doing that next session. Me: Make a trip check. Player: But you already tripped me and I didn't get up. Me: Indeed. Make a trip check. *Player suffers from confusion for the rest of the game*
Zeffan the Fighting Man 08-20-04, 03:42 PM	Originally posted by Previn Please provide a direct quote that a creature must, or must not be sentient for this spell. Please read my first two posts on this subject for your answer! :tiphat: Zeff
Caelic 08-20-04, 03:43 PM	It's actually abusable--Snow Savant pointed out that a Dire Wolf with Improved Trip gets an infinite free trip-free attack loop. Dumb, but technically legal.
Elgonn 08-20-04, 03:49 PM	Originally posted by Previn I'll point out that you are now suffering from adding words, specifically that is must be a MM entry, when all that is stated is entry. Caelic's character sheet is an entry. You do realize that pages ago I said Awaken was legal. But that doesn't mean that you certainly couldn't argue this. I'm not adding words. Simply when a book with hundreds of entries describing creatures says "unless otherwise noted in the creature's entry" it is referring to an actual entry in MM or any other such source book using similar methodology to describe a creature. You would have to take that amazingly out of context to think that a PC's character sheet qualifies as a "creature entry". Does Caelic's character sheet have a little clause under special qualities that says "unlike most animals (even though I'm really an outsider) I still have an intelligence greater than 2". Assuming you could wildshape into an animal with greater than 2 intelligence and be free of this clause can anyone think of an animal with more than 2?
Previn 08-20-04, 04:31 PM	Originally posted by Zeffan the Fighting Man Please read my first two posts on this subject for your answer! :tiphat: Zeff Neither of your first two posts mentions sentience in any form, nor does the original source of the thread to which you link in which the poster of the awaken loop hole (in that instance) is, strangly enough, me. Addtionally, your first post in this thread is fraudulent, since no regular CO people, nor any "creame of the crop" as it were had any problems with it other than timing issues. Since you haven't done as I asked, I will say it again: Please provide a direct quote that a creature must, or must not be sentient for this spell.
Previn 08-20-04, 04:43 PM	Originally posted by Elgonn You do realize that pages ago I said Awaken was legal. But that doesn't mean that you certainly couldn't argue this. I'm not adding words. Simply when a book with hundreds of entries describing creatures says "unless otherwise noted in the creature's entry" it is referring to an actual entry in MM or any other such source book using similar methodology to describe a creature. You would have to take that amazingly out of context to think that a PC's character sheet qualifies as a "creature entry". Does Caelic's character sheet have a little clause under special qualities that says "unlike most animals (even though I'm really an outsider) I still have an intelligence greater than 2". Assuming you could wildshape into an animal with greater than 2 intelligence and be free of this clause can anyone think of an animal with more than 2? I'm not saying that you said awaken wasn't legal. I'm pointing out flaws in your logic. Any entry is anything that's written down, be it the MM, PGtF, Bob's note book or anything else. The are also very few meaningful differences in a player's character sheet and an NPC's "entry." I could, for example, take a character sheet, fill it out as a monster using the information in the MM, and then use that sheet as the monsters entry, possibly making changes to it as things happen to the creature, such as being awakened or wished smarter. I can recall no animals with an intelligence greater than 2 in the MM or similar books. I belive that I have seen 1 example in a dungeon magazine, but may well be mistaken. A trump card I've been saving for quite some time: I would point out that numerous plants have intelligence scores of higher than 3, and have no prescibed limit on thier intelligence, are legal targets for awaken and are avalable forms via polymorph.
Elgonn 08-20-04, 05:31 PM	Originally posted by Previn Any entry is anything that's written down More accurately an 'entry' is some sort of record in a larger whole catalog, it being only a piece of it. Assuming that a character sheet is an entry according to the MM is amazingly taking the sentence out of context and begs the question what is the character sheet a entry in? The 'Big Book of Party Characters ©'? I think your really stretching for anything here. Originally posted by Previn A trump card I've been saving for quite some time: I would point out that numerous plants have intelligence scores of higher than 3, and have no prescibed limit on thier intelligence, are legal targets for awaken and are avalable forms via polymorph. This on the other hand works just fine. But would require Caelic to be level 12 Druid.
Eagle Prince 08-20-04, 06:11 PM	Originally posted by Caelic Prince, Now, c'mon...that's just not true, and I've already cited cases where it's not true. Cure spells are a stackable magical effect. Restoration spells create a stackable magical effect...or are you going to say that if five Lesser Restoration spells are cast on you, they heal a total of 4 points of ability damage? Rusting Grasp creates a stackable effect--I can rust the same object more than once, if it's too large to be rusted through on the first try. Ray of Enfeeblement creates a stackable magical effect--I can cast it on you over and over again, down to a minimum of one. Ditto Enervation, and these latter two DO create ongoing effects that can be undone. There are LOTS of magical effects that stack with themselves. Healing and damage spells have no stacking effect, they are healing or causing damage. Evervation stacks because the description says it stacks. And ray of enfeeblement does not stack, it outright says this in the magic chapter under 'same effects in different strengths'. If you look at Hallow, this is an instantaneous effect that grants various bonus and penatlies to turn/rebuke. I'm sure you'd agree that if I cast Hallow over and over that these bonuses wouldn't stack. You might say they are named, but we already know a bonus from the same source doesn't stack... which is explained in the magic chapter and futher explained in Rules Of the Game article on stacking effects. So then your only argument is a +1d3 Charisma and +2 HD isn't considered a "bonus", which I find hard to believe how you can explain a "+1d3" or "+2" is somehow not a bonus, but the stacking isn't limited only to 'bonus' as we already know from ray of enfeeblement, bane, doom, etc.
crazysamaritan 08-20-04, 06:43 PM	A feat which gives an increase yet not a bonus, to hitpoints. Although I can't agree with "LOTS", more like "a few". They are unnamed bonii, as far as I can tell....
Eagle Prince 08-20-04, 07:40 PM	Yes, but the Toughness feat also says the feat stacks with itself. As do all feats that stack with themselves. Unless the feat says it stacks, it does not stack with itself. If you read through the Rules of the Game article, it also mentions how feats stack and a feat does not stack with itself even though its unnamed, because its from the same source.
Previn 08-20-04, 07:48 PM	Originally posted by Elgonn More accurately an 'entry' is some sort of record in a larger whole catalog, it being only a piece of it. Assuming that a character sheet is an entry according to the MM is amazingly taking the sentence out of context and begs the question what is the character sheet a entry in? The 'Big Book of Party Characters ©'? I think your really stretching for anything here. No, an entry is a written record, which we typically see as part of a larger body of work. It is not always part of a larger record. So says Webster: 2. The act of making or entering a record; a setting down in writing the particulars, as of a transaction; as, an entry of a sale; also, that which is entered; an item. Debating the exact semantics of the english langauge is pointless in this case. There are exceptions, amoung them is listed the animal's intelligence. Thus it is possible to have an animal with an intelligence of greater than 2, even if none are currently listed.
Sammaster 08-20-04, 08:03 PM	Originally posted by Previn A trump card I've been saving for quite some time: I would point out that numerous plants have intelligence scores of higher than 3, and have no prescibed limit on thier intelligence, are legal targets for awaken and are avalable forms via polymorph. I thought I should note that the spell doesn't say creatures with the animal or plant types. It says the target is "animal or tree touched". Regular trees, as mentioned on page 313 of the MM, are considered objects rather than creatures, and don't have the plant type. Although creatures with the plant type would be legal forms for the polymorph spell, they aren't eligible to have the awaken spell cast on them. Nor are trees a valid form for a wizard using polymorph, or a druid using wild shape.
Elgonn 08-20-04, 08:06 PM	Originally posted by Previn Debating the exact semantics of the english langauge is pointless in this case. There are exceptions, amoung them is listed the animal's intelligence. Thus it is possible to have an animal with an intelligence of greater than 2, even if none are currently listed. As long as you believe a character sheet is an MM entry we will just have to agree to disagree. Because if whatever I scribble onto a post-it note becomes actually MM data it is going to make playing the game a tad more difficult.
Previn 08-20-04, 08:23 PM	Originally posted by Eagle Prince Healing and damage spells have no stacking effect, they are healing or causing damage. Evervation stacks because the description says it stacks. And ray of enfeeblement does not stack, it outright says this in the magic chapter under 'same effects in different strengths'. If you look at Hallow, this is an instantaneous effect that grants various bonus and penatlies to turn/rebuke. I'm sure you'd agree that if I cast Hallow over and over that these bonuses wouldn't stack. You might say they are named, but we already know a bonus from the same source doesn't stack... which is explained in the magic chapter and futher explained in Rules Of the Game article on stacking effects. So then your only argument is a +1d3 Charisma and +2 HD isn't considered a "bonus", which I find hard to believe how you can explain a "+1d3" or "+2" is somehow not a bonus, but the stacking isn't limited only to 'bonus' as we already know from ray of enfeeblement, bane, doom, etc. As the Sage has explained it to me, it is not a bonus, your abilities are set by the spell, much as polymorph sets your abilities rather than providing a bonus (or penalty). This is noted by the "gets" wording rather than the "bonus" wording. Note that this is a reversal of my original bonus argument (which no longer holds true now that same source bonuses don't stack despite lack of a bonus type), due to e-mails to the sage due to the stacking clarifications.
Previn 08-20-04, 08:33 PM	Originally posted by Sammaster I thought I should note that the spell doesn't say creatures with the animal or plant types. It says the target is "animal or tree touched". Regular trees, as mentioned on page 313 of the MM, are considered objects rather than creatures, and don't have the plant type. Although creatures with the plant type would be legal forms for the polymorph spell, they aren't eligible to have the awaken spell cast on them. Nor are trees a valid form for a wizard using polymorph, or a druid using wild shape. Indeed. I must with draw that argument then. Thanks for bringing that fact to my attention. I didn't realize that normal vegitation were treated as objects. Originally posted by Elgonn As long as you believe a character sheet is an MM entry we will just have to agree to disagree. Because if whatever I scribble onto a post-it note becomes actually MM data it is going to make playing the game a tad more difficult. One last try at seeing eye to eye :) My argument is thus: If animal intelligence is listed as something that has exceptions, then an animal's intelligence does not have to be 2 or less. If there is an exception, then not all animals have an intelligence of 2 or less. Do you have any problems with this statement Elgonn?
Sammaster 08-20-04, 09:24 PM	I think a part of Elgonn's point is that it may not be true that animal intelligence is listed as having exceptions. The SRD, talking about the animal type says: Traits: An animal possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). —Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal). —Low-light vision. —Alignment: Always neutral. —Treasure: None etc. So, although the overall section on animal traits includes the general caveat of "unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry", the part about Intelligence scores has the specific restriction added that "no creature with an Intelligence score 3 or higher can be an animal." In general, I'd assume that a specific restriction would override a general mention of the possibility of exceptions.
crazysamaritan 08-20-04, 09:43 PM	(no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal).Wow, the developers actually foresaw a loophole and prevented it.... :claps: :bow: Good job Dev!
Previn 08-20-04, 10:02 PM	Sammaster, normally, I would agree, and in principle I do. But since the entire section is under the exception, I can't logically accept that on the boards.
Elgonn 08-20-04, 10:46 PM	Originally posted by Previn If animal intelligence is listed as something that has exceptions, then an animal's intelligence does not have to be 2 or less. Lets quote the exact exception: Traits: An animal possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). So if there is an animal in the MM with an intelligence of 3 or higher it isn't a typo it is a legal animal. Originally posted by Previn If there is an exception, then not all animals have an intelligence of 2 or less. Do you have any problems with this statement Elgonn? Maybe. Now I see 2 ways of viewing this. 1. There are no animals with an intelligence higher than 2. Either none exist and the section is worthless or the specific exception takes precedence over the general exception. [Someone can prove this wrong by finding an intelligent animal.] 2. Presuming the general exception takes precedence it only works if it is printed in the creature's entry. Now I fail to see how anything but a standarized MM entry qualifies for this. Just because the post-it note I made an 'entry' on about how legendary tigers have 20 int doesn't make it true. In context creature's entry must mean in regards to the entries you've been reading through before you made it to the glossary. Issue: All of this presumes that 'targetting' somehow knows the difference between something with the 'type' animal and actually being an animal according to its own definition (although it being a "real" animal for targetting makes more sense than just a type). We really need an animal description with 3+ int in my opinion to by the RAW cast Awaken on a wild shaped druid.
Averien 08-20-04, 10:47 PM	Wait... So Druids, it turns out, can't use Wild Shape? Or does Polymorph lie when it says you gain that type? Or does your intelligence drop to 2 when you cast polymorph or use wild shape to become an animal (gaining the "animal" traits)? How about some consistancy: There is no question that Wild Shape, Polymorph, and similar spells and abilities grant you the type of what you change into; that makes you an animal. The "you have intelligence more than 2! You aren't an animal" needs to have some constistancy: PHB overrides the Monster Manual when it comes to characters and spells; the spells provide an exception, so Monster Manual is overridden. The Int 2/3 doesn't play out, folks. Find something to kill the stacking if you have to: the effects debate leaves it somewhat open. The "You're not an animal" argument is just plain pathetic.
Elgonn 08-20-04, 10:50 PM	Originally posted by Averien So Druids, it turns out, can't use Wild Shape? Or does Polymorph lie when it says you gain that type? They still worked back in 3.0 when you didn't gain type. Read the section prefixed Issue I just typed.
Averien 08-20-04, 10:55 PM	Either a Druid Wild Shaping loses their intelligence (beign a trait and not an "ability score"), or it is an exception (which is part of the MM rules). Either way, it's type changes to animal. That makes it an "animal". If they lose the intelligence, then awaken works, no matter what. If it's an exception, it still works, because it's a valid target- being, y'know, an animal.
Sammaster 08-20-04, 11:43 PM	The Rules of the Game article about Polymorphing clearly states that a person can take the Animal type, and will keep his own intelligence. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040525a So, regardless of whether the specific restriction means that there will never be an animal published that has an Int 3+, a druid can gain the animal type through wild shaping and still have an Intelligence higher than 2. Anyway, barring someone showing that there is a difference between being an animal and having the animal type for some temporary duration, I'd say the RAW would allow (at least) one casting of Awaken. I haven't really read the stacking rules recently, so I'm not sure on that aspect of it.
Mucknuggle 08-21-04, 08:18 AM	Ok guys, you are repeating the same arguments over and over and over. How about we just email the Sage with a couple of questions? Concerning the spell: 1. The target line of Awaken says "plant or animal", yet the spell description states that it bestows human-like intelligence upon such a creature. Does that mean that the legal target must have an intelligence score of 1 or 2? 2. Can awaken stack with itself? e.g. Awaken is cast on a squirrel, making it a magical beast, but we use Wish or some sort of polymorph spell to change it's type back into animal, making it a "legal" (see question #1 about what is legal) target for the spell. Does it gain additional HD and charisma? 3. Is a druid wildshaped into an animal a legal target for Awaken? 4. If a druid wildshaped into an animal is a legal target, can it wildshape into an animal after having cast Awaken on itself and cast the spell again to stack the effects?
Previn 08-21-04, 09:44 AM	I've done so before and the answer to all of those things was yes. No one here seems to accept that though, nor do they seem willing to e-mail the sage themselves as I've suggested several times.
Zeffan the Fighting Man 08-21-04, 10:54 AM	BOLD print originally posted by Caelic Zeffan, On this, I still have to go with Previn--even though I don't like this particular loophole and would never allow it. The support is the fact that the stated target is "Target animal or tree." What an animal is in 3.5 is clearly defined--it's a creature with the type "animal." While the spell does, indeed, say that it awakens a creature to humanlike sentience, it doesn't say that it only AFFECTS creatures without humanlike sentience. I answered this in my second post--reprinted for you here: Caelic, I understand rules lawyering--but there is a BIG difference between applying the rules as written and doing anything which is not specifically prohibited. I'll concede that the RAW would allow your character to cast his/her soceror and druid spells... but your statement-- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Again, letter of the rules. While the spell does, indeed, mention that that is the intention, it makes NO mechanical provision for quantifying it. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- --flies in the face of good lawyering--the mention of 'intention' within a rule or law IS a 'mechanical provision' which can be subsequently used in applying said rule or law. In essance, the intention has become part of the letter as well as the spirit of the rules. Your contest rules include: 8. As this is a rules lawyering tournament, the LETTER of the rules is what matters--not the spirit or intent. If it's legal by the letter of the rules, go for it! Fold, spindle, and mutilate the intent to your heart's content. I was simply pointing out that the designers intent that the spell is to awaken non-sentient animals and plants is IN the letter of the rules and should void your use of the spell. I am aware the we agree in principle and your famous rule 0 (which my group call Caelic's Rule in your honor... :D ) wouldn't allow it in play. I'm just saying that you CAN't ignore spirit or intent for the Awaken spell as it was included in the body of the spell. ...Well, at least that's how it's supposed to work in other applications-- :rolleyes: Consider Panacea, which cures disease, poison, insanity, and a slew of other things. That doesn't mean you can't cast it on someone who's NOT poisoned, diseased, and/or insane. No it doesn't...but Does it then have the SAME effects? Does it cure what is not there? Same argument applies for cure light wounds...you CAN cast it on an unwounded character...but to what affect? None. Consider, for a moment, the fact that "awakening an animal to humanlike sentience" is clearly NOT all the spell does. Humanlike sentience has nothing to do with becoming significantly stronger, sturdier, and more charismatic...all of which are granted by the spell. Great argument, Caelic!--I'd say that they do...that the effects of the spell result from the "Awakening." The spell says "...an Awakened tree..." and "...an Awakened animal..." gets these things. ...unless you IGNORE the portion in the body of the spell that tells its users the affects of the spell and use the stuff in the heading area of the spell description only...as Previn is doing. That would be "Half-rule" Lawyering... :rofl: Now, let me ask you--why would the spell make a squirrel with a two Intelligence bigger and stronger and more persuasive, but have no effect whatsoever on a squirrel with a three Intelligence? I never raised this argument--I'm being easy, a druid changes into an animal and I'm not dancing around the definitions of animal and magical beast... (INT 2 vs. INT 3...etc.) the issue I raised is this: Awakening = sentience: as the druid is already sentient, he or she is an illegal target for the spell. But you can only arrive at this conclusion by reading the "Descriptive Text" under SPELL DESCRIPTIONS section of the 3.5 SRD MAGIC OVERVIEW section--see Previn, a citation!-- and not just the headings of the standard format. Rules Lawyering means ALL the rule. not just part. If the authors of the rule hadn't included the very first sentence in this descriptive text, you'd heard 'nary a peep' from me... :turkey: "peep" "peep" Another argument--the stacking rules--under COMBINING MAGICAL EFFECTS section of CASTING SPELLS portion of the 3.5 SRD MAGIC OVERVIEW--also prohibits your tactic: (edited for clarity) Stacking Effects: Spells that provide bonuses...on...attributes usually do not stack with themselves." Hard to argue with that--black and white right in the rules, with no goofy text to "spin, fold, or mutilate..." The only chance to defeat this provision is to "glomm on" to the word "usually" and hold on tight! ;) Previn's got the coolest sig I've read on these boards...but rules lawyering requires reading the whole rule (in this case the Awaken spell). It also means that the lawyer must perform within the parameters of the rule as written and not claim "...since it doesn't say I can't--I CAN!!!" uh, no--that's the game of "make believe." Either the rules provide limits or they don't. This contest is about abusing the rules. Cool. But the very first sentence of the Awaken spell description describes the effect, "You awaken a tree or animal to humanlike sentience." Ignoring that, ignores PART of the RULE. A better argument was made by Previn when he (...she?, I don't know and I mean NO offense...not all the best posters I read are male and I've read Previn in other threads with great admiration... :bow: ) argues the MEANING of the term human sentience...that the spell doesn't define the term so it is moot. That may well fly under rule 8 of this competition. Under the law--well, my little tiny area of it That I know anything about, anyhow-- when terms are not defined they are typically either defined opperationally (by their function) or by prima facie evidence. Which means words in a rule simply can't be ignored but must be addressed. Mucknuggle is correct! Until an authoritative ruling comes down which either addresses or eliminates the "sentience factor" as dictum, the rules lawyer cannot...doing so means you are making a value judgement--your OWN ruling about the INTENT of the rule...which is not allowed under Caelic's rule 8 of the competition. Until such time as a rules decision by an authoritative source can be made the answers to Mucknuggle's following questions: 3. Is a druid wildshaped into an animal a legal target for Awaken? 4. If a druid wildshaped into an animal is a legal target, can it wildshape into an animal after having cast Awaken on itself and cast the spell again to stack the effects? ....must be answered "No" and "No" Sorry to say, I've actually now got enough work to keep me off the boards for a month or so... so have fun all! If this is still kicking I'll look at it then. Enjoy the game! :tiphat: Zeff
El_Machinae 08-21-04, 12:21 PM	Originally posted by Caelic 4. And now, sadly, I must shoot down my OWN build, as a rereading has discovered a fatal flaw. The Sylph's description, upon careful reading, does indeed give her a caster level equal to her hit dice +4...but it also gives her a FIXED number of spells known and spells per day. These are not listed as an example for a typical Sylph; the entry says that she gets a caster level of X, spells per day of Y, and spells known of Z. Consequently--by the letter of the rules--my Sylph will have a stratospheric caster level, but still only be able to cast fourth level spells. Ah, well. Live by the RAW, die by the RAW. [/B] Okay, you'd lose a BUNCH of XP potential, but couldn't you end the build with a level of Dragon Disciple? This would add to your spells known, and since you'll be a fairly high sorceror level, you can make that a 9th level slot. Finally, your charisma might give you some bonus spells at that level. Anyway, you'd lose XP, and you'd have to take the level of DD AFTER spending all the experience on awaken ...
Caelic 08-21-04, 12:36 PM	It's an interesting thought, but I don't think I could actually do it. Because of the way the Sylph is worded, I have a very high caster level, but I don't actually know ninth-level spells...or eighth or seventh or sixth or fifth, for that matter. I haven't looked at DD in a while, but isn't it based on the highest level of spell you know/can cast? As things stand, I've just managed to develop the most Dispel-proof, SR-proof semi-caster in the universe. :)
lonewar 08-21-04, 02:37 PM	Ok, here's a thought. Given that the Wish spell allows you to create one item of not more than 25,000 gp value. And given that the players handbook states that casters usually charge 5 times the experience cost in gold pieces for casting spells. Would it not be permissible to wish for 5,000 experience, without GM intervention? Now I am not asking to replace experience lost by casting a spell, something that is explicidly prohibited by a wish, I am just asking if a wish, (If found on say a scroll or ring) could be used to grant a character 5000 experience. If the answer to the above it yes, then its simple. 17th level Wizard, Scribe scroll feat from first level, magical artisan feat from FRCS (reduce cost of magic item creation feat by 25%) ((1434.375gp)(3864.75 xp) cost for a Scroll of wish scribed by a magical artisan) So with one wish scroll I can create enough gold to fund the gold cost of 17 more wish spells (and have some change left over). Assuming I only use 16 of those scrolls for experience, and use the 17th for gold to fund another 17 scrolls, the experience gained per wish scroll cycle is 14299.25. So effectively I have unlimited gold and experience to play with =) (If the above works)
Himosan 08-21-04, 04:55 PM	Originally posted by Mucknuggle Ok guys, you are repeating the same arguments over and over and over. How about we just email the Sage with a couple of questions? Concerning the spell: 1. The target line of Awaken says "plant or animal", yet the spell description states that it bestows human-like intelligence upon such a creature. Does that mean that the legal target must have an intelligence score of 1 or 2? 2. Can awaken stack with itself? e.g. Awaken is cast on a squirrel, making it a magical beast, but we use Wish or some sort of polymorph spell to change it's type back into animal, making it a "legal" (see question #1 about what is legal) target for the spell. Does it gain additional HD and charisma? 3. Is a druid wildshaped into an animal a legal target for Awaken? 4. If a druid wildshaped into an animal is a legal target, can it wildshape into an animal after having cast Awaken on itself and cast the spell again to stack the effects? I don't think he is a legal target if he already has humanlie sentience but that is easily sidestepped by application of Feeblemind thru a wizard cohort (or whatever). It's an irrelevent point. I do think it's obvious that you cannot stack the addl HD & Cha from Awaken. Stacking effects CLEARLY does not ONLY apply to bonuses as it talks specifically about Poymorph, Hold & Charm, etc. In addition Animal Companions create a precedent for "bonus" HD.
Previn 08-21-04, 07:07 PM	Originally posted by Zeffan the Fighting Man I was simply pointing out that the designers intent that the spell is to awaken non-sentient animals and plants is IN the letter of the rules and should void your use of the spell. .... I'm just saying that you CAN't ignore spirit or intent for the Awaken spell as it was included in the body of the spell. And I will ask for a third time: Please provide a direct quote where sentience is listed as a requirement in any form.
Mucknuggle 08-21-04, 07:25 PM	Originally posted by Previn And I will ask for a third time: Please provide a direct quote where sentience is listed as a requirement in any form. He can't because there is nothing that explicitly says this. Previn, would you happen to know the Sage's email address? I'm going to send the mail since no one else will. Please post any other questions you would like answered as well.
Previn 08-21-04, 09:03 PM	Originally posted by Mucknuggle He can't because there is nothing that explicitly says this. Previn, would you happen to know the Sage's email address? I'm going to send the mail since no one else will. Please post any other questions you would like answered as well. I realize that he can't, I'm just trying to point out that his logic is fatally flawed. :smirk: The sage (Skip Williams) should be reachable via e-mail at:sageadvice@paizo.com